Gunman kills 30 at US university

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Where exactly do you come up with the figure of 30 x 32? You do realize that is almost 1000?

--yap , that's what the author is trying to say.

Imagine if the Virginia Tech Shooting Were Thirty Times Larger


In Iraq today, 85 people were killed or found dead. The United States is more than ten times as large as Iraq.

The 85 dead among 26.7 million Iraqis is the equivalent of 955 killed in a population of 300 million Americans.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/imagine-if-the-virginia-t_b_46134.html

the tenor of your question shows that you don't understand the concept of empathy. Empathy doesn't come with conditionalities.

-- where did u find the condition ? Here is a statement & a Question : America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think that one thing this points out is that the 'student visa' program
must be cancelled.

Too many foreign nationals, and no one is checking them.

Some guy in Chapel Hill, NC, tried to run over students in the
Duke commons, with a van.

These incidents will not stop, if security isnt tightened.
Get these people out of the country.

However, if he had not had, a student visa, these people would still be alive.

That, no one can refute.

The student visa program, is the problem.

Get rid of it.

I did not invite them, I owe them nothing.
I am not interested in your opinion of actual US citizens.
If the Universities need foreign students to survive, they dont deserve
to survive.

The rest of your post is pro-uncontrolled immigrant nonsence.

If this man, did not have a student visa, these people would still be alive.

Get rid of the program.

That is another flaw in the program. They should NOT, be granted such status. They should be allowed in ONLY, with the understanding that they
will eventually LEAVE.

It should not be used as a mechanism to evade normal immigration.

There is so much that you obviously have missed. Now, part of this is because you posted in response to news that came out the first day. That should be the first lesson, get the facts before commenting. The news suspected an international student. Cho does was not an international student. He was a permament immigrant to this country who arrived here with his parents who legally immigrated when Cho was 9 years of age. He then grew up here. Whether or not he was treated well by others has come into question. So, how we respond to immigrants among us might be a pertinent thing to consider.

Your concerns with the international student and VISA programs are duly noted, but don't apply in this instance.

As to too many foreign nationals and no one check them out, or the view that many people are here uninvited. Well, that use to be true. Most Americans are descendants of people who came here uninvited. Certainly Pocohauntus and Squanto should have done a better job of checking out the foreign nationals they helped. But that is now ancient history. International students are actually sought after and definietly invited. Having hosted some, I can tell you that there definitely are checks made on them today. School administrators are accountable to the department of Homeland Security for keeping tabs on whether a person here on a student VISA is actually enrolled in and attending school. Schools that fail to do this can lose the privilege of accepting international students.

Universities don't need foreign students to survive. They recruit them because they bring the presence of different cultures to their campuses, and that experience is something most universities desire for their American students to experience as they are being educated to live in a global society not just for a particular degree. To fail to understand this is to fail to understand the purpose of higher education in this country.

Persons here on a Visa, all types of Visas are, just as you said it should be, allowed here only for a specified period of time. That specificiation varies wtih the purpose of the Visa. In general, if one seeks to apply for residency status or often even a change in visa status, it requires the individual to return to their country of origin in order to file for a change in status. So, all those things which you wish for are already in place in the program, it cannot be used as a means to avoid normal immigration accept by those who elect to remain illegally. That same problem could occur with any form of admission to the USA from student visa, to worker visa, to tourist or even diplomatic visa. Of these, the student visa is the most secure because it has the most follow-up built into the program.

If we want to eliminate the Cho's of this world, what we need to do is eliminate hate, start to accept outsiders, and provide better care for the mentally ill. His immigrant status is irrelevant to what happened.

 

[Keltoi]

I agree with Grace Seeker, Cho's immigrant status has nothing to do with this discussion. The truth is that Cho was as American as apple pie. He was mentally ill and obviously disturbed. That doesn't excuse his deeds obviously, but events like this can usually be stopped if proper action is taken by health professionals, teachers, and family.

 

[Chiteng]

There is so much that you obviously have missed. Now, part of this is because you posted in response to news that came out the first day. That should be the first lesson, get the facts before commenting. The news suspected an international student. Cho does was not an international student. He was a permament immigrant to this country who arrived here with his parents who legally immigrated when Cho was 9 years of age. He then grew up here. Whether or not he was treated well by others has come into question. So, how we respond to immigrants among us might be a pertinent thing to consider.

Your concerns with the international student and VISA programs are duly noted, but don't apply in this instance.

As to too many foreign nationals and no one check them out, or the view that many people are here uninvited. Well, that use to be true. Most Americans are descendants of people who came here uninvited. Certainly Pocohauntus and Squanto should have done a better job of checking out the foreign nationals they helped. But that is now ancient history. International students are actually sought after and definietly invited. Having hosted some, I can tell you that there definitely are checks made on them today. School administrators are accountable to the department of Homeland Security for keeping tabs on whether a person here on a student VISA is actually enrolled in and attending school. Schools that fail to do this can lose the privilege of accepting international students.

Universities don't need foreign students to survive. They recruit them because they bring the presence of different cultures to their campuses, and that experience is something most universities desire for their American students to experience as they are being educated to live in a global society not just for a particular degree. To fail to understand this is to fail to understand the purpose of higher education in this country.

Persons here on a Visa, all types of Visas are, just as you said it should be, allowed here only for a specified period of time. That specificiation varies wtih the purpose of the Visa. In general, if one seeks to apply for residency status or often even a change in visa status, it requires the individual to return to their country of origin in order to file for a change in status. So, all those things which you wish for are already in place in the program, it cannot be used as a means to avoid normal immigration accept by those who elect to remain illegally. That same problem could occur with any form of admission to the USA from student visa, to worker visa, to tourist or even diplomatic visa. Of these, the student visa is the most secure because it has the most follow-up built into the program.

If we want to eliminate the Cho's of this world, what we need to do is eliminate hate, start to accept outsiders, and provide better care for the mentally ill. His immigrant status is irrelevant to what happened.

If you confine the arugument to Cho, then you are correct.
The information released the first day was flawed.
However,
What type of visa was being used by 20+ people on 9/11?

There are flaws within the program. It should be eliminated.

'Start to accept outsiders' That is an interesting phrase.
If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam,
I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

I guess it is easy to suggest that 'other' people be tolerant.

The truth is that the student Visa program is used to bypass national
immigrant quotas. The 'students' come here with no intent to ever leave.
It is a polite myth. The home countries of these people will never benefit
from the educations.
I dont wish to irritate the forum mods so I will stop posting now.

 

[Agnostic]

The truth is that Cho was as American as apple pie. He was mentally ill and obviously disturbed.

LOL :giggling:
Sorry Keltoi I know it was out of context but it made me laugh.

 

[siFilam]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful

'Start to accept outsiders' That is an interesting phrase.
If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam,
I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

a person openly denouncing Islam in downtown Tehran or any other Islamic cities would receive the same response as someone denouncing Democracy, liberty and freedom in the streets of America.
What is the difference between a American defending Democracy and a Muslim defending their religion?

-SI-

 

[Chiteng]

In The Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful



a person openly denouncing Islam in downtown Tehran or any other Islamic cities would receive the same response as someone denouncing Democracy, liberty and freedom in the streets of America.
What is the difference between a American defending Democracy and a Muslim defending their religion?

-SI-

In the United States, if I had a permit, I could stand on the street corner
all day, denouncing, democracy, liberty and freedom.
NOTHING would happen to me, and in fact the police would protect me
if needed.

Somehow I suspect that denouncing Islam publicly, violates the Sharia.
And I would quite likely die quickly.

 

[Keltoi]

LOL :giggling:
Sorry Keltoi I know it was out of context but it made me laugh.

lol...should have worded that better.

 

[siFilam]

In the United States, if I had a permit, I could stand on the street corner
all day, denouncing, democracy, liberty and freedom.
NOTHING would happen to me, and in fact the police would protect me
if needed.

Somehow I suspect that denouncing Islam publicly, violates the Sharia.
And I would quite likely die quickly.

I doubt you would be able to get such a permit.

-SI-

 

[Chiteng]

I doubt you would be able to get such a permit.

-SI-

And you would be wrong. All you need to do is file the application
at the courthouse.

example:

Nazis marching thru Jewish neighborhoods.
People burning flags
Anti-abortion Activists picketing hospitals

I do think you must pay a fee however.

The point being that you dont get stoned to death for it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

If you confine the arugument to Cho, then you are correct.
The information released the first day was flawed.
However,
What type of visa was being used by 20+ people on 9/11?

There are flaws within the program. It should be eliminated.

There are flaws in most government programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the rest. If flaws are a reason to eliminate them, let's eliminate everything the government does. Or we could try to improove the programs by addressing some of those flaws. Indeed, this is what has happened. Saddly we should have recognized and addressed some of these issues before 9/11, but we didn't. Since that time, nearly all of the concerns you have stated have been addressed. The program is no longer as flawed as you make it out to be.

'Start to accept outsiders' That is an interesting phrase.
If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam,
I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

I guess it is easy to suggest that 'other' people be tolerant.

Well, as I happen to have friends who live in Tehran (both Muslim and non-Muslim) I can answer this question with some degree of knowledge.

No, you cannot denounce Islam and you cannot proseltyze in the street in Tehran. They have a system of government that does not include some of the items that are granted to people in the US Constitution. But you can wear a Christian T-shirt on the street, carry and read from a Bible in public, and you can hold Bible studies in private homes with friends.

As for what you can do in the USA, what happens when Fred Phelps attends the graveside service of a soldier and spouts his hate filled messages? What happens when a person tries to burn a US Flag on the local county courthouse? Aren't there always people there who try to stop them. Those activities are not against the law, but doing them puts you at risk of injury from others in society. So, it seems like the level of intolerance is about equal worldwide.

As for your reply to the previous poster that all you would have to do is get a permit, that is true. It is not true that it would be granted. I lived near Skokie (a predominately Jewish community outside Chicago), when the Nazis desired to get a permit to parade though Skokie that request was denied. Eventually the ACLU stepped in and got them a permit elsewhere in Chicago. And you are again right, the police turned out to protect. Why? Because, the citizenry wanted to attack them; so the police were there to keep the peace.

The truth is that the student Visa program is used to bypass national
immigrant quotas. The 'students' come here with no intent to ever leave.
It is a polite myth. The home countries of these people will never benefit
from the educations.

To say "the students", as if it applies to all students, just is not true. Having hosted many exchange students over the years I know personally of both the desire of some of these students to stay and of others who desire to return to their home countries. My "son" from Chile lived with us in 2001 at the time of the 9/11 attacks. He spent his year here and then returned to Chile. Last semester he was back in the USA to work on his masters. But again, just for that one semester. After spending time with us at Christmas, he flew home where he will complete his degree in the fall. Presently he is working on internships for his future employment in Chile.

I could repeat that story for you literally thousands of times recounting the stories and the goals and aspirations of student after student. Simply put, you are wrong. They really are students. Some come and find that they have opportunities here they never imagined before and of course want to stay and take advantage of them. And those that do, add to our country's strength. Some come and accomplish that which they came here for and return to continue to pursuing their dreams in their homelands. There is not one monolithic community which can be identified by the phrase "the students".

I have family from not only the USA, but also Chile, China, Thailand, Turkey, and Vietnam. It is only my son from Vietnam who desires to live here. And he does so because he was brought to this country as a refugee, by our own government, when still a child. This is where home is for him, he has lived here (as a citizen) for longer than he ever lived in Vietnam.

I dont wish to irritate the forum mods so I will stop posting now.

I think you should stop posting simply because you don't know whereof you speak.

 

[Chiteng]

There are flaws in most government programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the rest. If flaws are a reason to eliminate them, let's eliminate everything the government does. Or we could try to improove the programs by addressing some of those flaws. Indeed, this is what has happened. Saddly we should have recognized and addressed some of these issues before 9/11, but we didn't. Since that time, nearly all of the concerns you have stated have been addressed. The program is no longer as flawed as you make it out to be.




Well, as I happen to have friends who live in Tehran (both Muslim and non-Muslim) I can answer this question with some degree of knowledge.

No, you cannot denounce Islam and you cannot proseltyze in the street in Tehran. They have a system of government that does not include some of the items that are granted to people in the US Constitution. But you can wear a Christian T-shirt on the street, carry and read from a Bible in public, and you can hold Bible studies in private homes with friends.

As for what you can do in the USA, what happens when Fred Phelps attends the graveside service of a soldier and spouts his hate filled messages? What happens when a person tries to burn a US Flag on the local county courthouse? Aren't there always people there who try to stop them. Those activities are not against the law, but doing them puts you at risk of injury from others in society. So, it seems like the level of intolerance is about equal worldwide.

As for your reply to the previous poster that all you would have to do is get a permit, that is true. It is not true that it would be granted. I lived near Skokie (a predominately Jewish community outside Chicago), when the Nazis desired to get a permit to parade though Skokie that request was denied. Eventually the ACLU stepped in and got them a permit elsewhere in Chicago. And you are again right, the police turned out to protect. Why? Because, the citizenry wanted to attack them; so the police were there to keep the peace.






To say "the students", as if it applies to all students, just is not true. Having hosted many exchange students over the years I know personally of both the desire of some of these students to stay and of others who desire to return to their home countries. My "son" from Chile lived with us in 2001 at the time of the 9/11 attacks. He spent his year here and then returned to Chile. Last semester he was back in the USA to work on his masters. But again, just for that one semester. After spending time with us at Christmas, he flew home where he will complete his degree in the fall. Presently he is working on internships for his future employment in Chile.

I could repeat that story for you literally thousands of times recounting the stories and the goals and aspirations of student after student. Simply put, you are wrong. They really are students. Some come and find that they have opportunities here they never imagined before and of course want to stay and take advantage of them. And those that do, add to our country's strength. Some come and accomplish that which they came here for and return to continue to pursuing their dreams in their homelands. There is not one monolithic community which can be identified by the phrase "the students".

I have family from not only the USA, but also Chile, China, Thailand, Turkey, and Vietnam. It is only my son from Vietnam who desires to live here. And he does so because he was brought to this country as a refugee, by our own government, when still a child. This is where home is for him, he has lived here (as a citizen) for longer than he ever lived in Vietnam.



I think you should stop posting simply because you don't know whereof you speak.

I know quite a bit more than you accept that I do.

For example:

Students that claim a wide variety of different types of persecutions
within their home country. In order to NOT be required to return to said
contry. A classic example is the Ba Hai religion and Iran.

I have personally know in excess of twentyfive such students that were
primarily concerned with qualifying for different types of visa, rather than
returning to their home country.

I can give the campus involved as well.

I asked them at length, and they responded unabashed, 'If you cant hold on to it, move over'

Also you suggestion that since 9/11 the student visa program has been
magicly repaired is simply silly.

Yes I am sure there are student that actually intend to return to the homeland. And they are outnumbered.

None of which matters. They should not have an option to do anything else.
AND Btw, it is my right as a citizen, to have that opinion.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Fine. You can have whatever opinion you want. And I'll gladly continue to engage in this discussion with you if you want. But, let's take it to another thread. I don't think we are on topic with the issues here anymore.

 

[Redeemed]

And you would be wrong. All you need to do is file the application
at the courthouse.

example:

Nazis marching thru Jewish neighborhoods.
People burning flags
Anti-abortion Activists picketing hospitals

I do think you must pay a fee however.

The point being that you dont get stoned to death for it.

I agree

 

[Cognescenti]

There are flaws in most government programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the rest. If flaws are a reason to eliminate them, let's eliminate everything the government does.

:thumbs_up

Or we could try to improove the programs by addressing some of those flaws.

Nah...I like the first idea better.

 

[Muezzin]

Someone somewhere along the line derailed this thread into thinly veiled Islam bashing/quasi-xenophobia. Hmm.

Please stay on topic everyone. Kudos to those who recognised what the subject of this thread is (and more importantly, what it isn't).

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

If I went to downtown Tehran, and started to denounce Islam, I can only wonder if I would be greeted with your stated tolerance.

---is it a good taste to go to a counrty as a tourist & then start donounceing their religion openly ?

Are u sure , if i get US visa , Americans will greet me if i start bashing Jesus (p) openly after reaching there? If i go to any Jewish prayer place & say nasty things about Moses (p) , Jews will welcome me ?


In Thailand , u r not allowed to say anything against their king & u r asking if Muslims will greet if u openly denounce Islam ? I m not sure if there is any law against it in Iran but surely public will react negatively . But why r u asking this question ?


Raising question about US foreign policy or express concern about role of media ------ these are not same as condemning Islam or any other religion in a public place. Tolerance does not mean people will be allowed to do anything they want.

pl. read my 1st post carefully---- i never said that Americans must not feel sad about VT tragedy .


P.S. oooopssss , i just noticed that i mixed up this thread with America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?

 

[Grace Seeker]

There are so many personal stories to be told. The information posted earlier about Waleed Shaalan reminds us that while some live only for themselves, others commit selfless acts. Indeed, if anything that story was repeated numerous times in the midst of the horror of that morning. Professor Liviu Librescu having survived the Holocaust sacrificed his life that his students might escape our a window. Other students took the risk to barricade doors as Cho tried to force his way in saving himself and all in the room. Some did these deeds even after being shot.

I found out the other day I have a 2nd degree connection with one of the victims. A friend of mine is pastor of the church Austin Cloyd attended. Two years ago went on a mission trip with her church's youth group to help repair homes of those who had no means to do so for themselves. The trip was to Appalachia, the part of the country Blacksburg, VA is located in. She was so moved and changed by the experience that upon her return home to Illinois, she made a life commitment to serve people there. Her father was so impressed by the change he saw in his daughter's life, that he actually changed jobs, taking a cut in pay to move to Blacksburg where he got a job at Virginiah Tech so that Austin could continue the ministry she found herself drawn to helping people in Appalachia.

Each one of the people had a story. We sometimes talk about it being a shame that there lives were cut so tragically short. And it is a tragedy. But let us not sell them short either. The more I read about the individuals and see them as persons not numbers that add up to 32, the more I recognize that each was already living a full and productive life. It would also be a tragedy to not acknowledge the contributions they had each already made.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Press Association
Monday April 16, 2007 8:03 PM

A gunman opened fire in a dormitory and classroom at a US university on Monday, killing at least 30 people.

The rampage at Virginia Tech University was the deadliest in US history, government officials said. The gunman was killed, bringing the death toll in Blacksburg, Virginia, to 31.

© Copyright Press Association Ltd 2007, All Rights Reserved

Source

The dude was emotionally and spiritually under-nourished, all the makings for typical case of possession. (eg: the one who actully committed the crimes was already dead):

You decided to spill my blood...

There's a lot of this sort of thing going on as of late. I know. I know. I'll shut up now.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Redeemed]

I can't help but notice that people keep their way of life undisclosed. From that I can tell they are not Muslims, but if they are Christians, I would find it disappointing that they would deep it undisclosed. It makes me think what is it they are trying to hide. Jesus said, if you are ashamed of me in this sinfull and adultress generation so will I be ashamed of you when I come in the glory of my Father with the holy angels.