Hadith and Science

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I was reading the Muhsin Khan translation of the Qur'an yesterday, and it included a certain hadith that refers to science. The science it doesn't seem to be accurate.

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Hadith no. 275

Narrated Anas: When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."

This is basically saying that if the man has his orgasm first during sexual intercourse, the child will look like him, and if the woman has her orgasm first, then the child will look like her. Modern science has proven that it is genetics that determine whom the child looks like.

Can anyone here help me with this? Especially those who can read the hadith in the original Arabic.
 
^^ why could you not PM one of us about these things so that you can be directed to a real life Scholar or ask at the Mosque (if it exists) where you supposed to have reverted to Islam?

getting questions from islamwatch or other anti-Muslim sites is not a great Idea for a Muslim. They rely mostly on the work done on Islam by the Orientalists or tales told by the European travelers of the past centuries. In some cases, books like Thousand and One Nights and The Perfumed Garden or stories like aladin, ali baba and sinbad are used to explain Islam

I am sure you know very well that this site is populated by kids and with the exception of one or two, also moderated by kids. The only answers you can expect to get are from googlers who may not even understand what they copy/paste.

In light of all the above, there is only one motive for posting these questions here, and it ain't the desire to learn!!!
 
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^^ why could you not PM one of us about these things so that you can be directed to a real life Scholar or ask at the Mosque (if it exists) where you supposed to have reverted to Islam?

I asked the sheikh at the mosque this question, but he said that he didn't know because this is not his area of expertise. I will ask a Muslim doctor (the same one who helped me become Muslim) but he's not usually at the mosque except for Isha', which I usually pray at home.

getting questions from islamwatch or other anti-Muslim sites is not a great Idea for a Muslim. They rely mostly on the work done on Islam by the Orientalists or tales told by the European travelers of the past centuries. In some cases, books like Thousand and One Nights and The Perfumed Garden or stories like aladin, ali baba and sinbad are used to explain Islam

I have not visited any anti-Islamic sites since I converted to Islam, and even a while before then. I read about this first on Faith Freedom International, but that was before I knew that not all ahadith were sahih. I thought that the ones that Ali Sina puts in his comic book weren't sahih. However, I noticed this hadith in a translation of the Qur'an, and I actually looked up the hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari in the mosque library.

In light of all the above, there is only one motive for posting these questions here, and it ain't the desire to learn!!!

You are making accusations for which you have no proof. My question was not intended to cause debate: I am sincerely looking for an answer. I want to find out if modern science has proven what the Prophet SAWS said. If I was intending debate, why would I write "Can anyone help me with this?".
 
If I was intending debate, why would I write "Can anyone help me with this?
My son plays stupid all the time at trinitarian sites, just like they do here.

Saying: "Can anyone help me with this?" is no proof of anything

BTW. you overlooked following:
I am sure you know very well that this site is populated by kids and with the exception of one or two, also moderated by kids. The only answers you can expect to get are from googlers who may not even understand what they copy/paste.
 
NoName55,

I am not trying to debate anyone here. I would place my hand on the Holy Qur'an and swear this (but I can't as how would I type?).

I am searching for a sincere answer to my question. Please don't post here unless you are answering the question in the original post.
 
mr. Michael
I will post in any open thread as I see fit for as long as I remain a member.

Only way to stop me is to get me banned. Until then I will object to any x-rated thread on a forum that my grandchildren, ranging from 7 to 20 year old, were allowed to visit in the past, now its becoming so bad that you could see my black face turn red
 
micheal why would genetics conflict with the initial discharge affecting the resemblence of a certain parent? Isnt it possible that it is indeed the initial discharge which helps mould the genetics into what it is?


i hope im making sense, this is simply an observation. for a true answer go to a scholar



IMPORTANT NOTE

It is VERY dangerous to read hadith on your own, i would suggest you find a teacher or start reading books which come with explenations. Just picking up sahih bukhari could be a cause of misguidance and we seek refuge in Allah from that... especially when its the english translation and not even in its pure pristine arabic form....


assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah
 
Peace brother NoName55, theres no reason to get agitated by brother Michael's post. He's a recent revert and Im sure he has many sincere questions and just needs some guidance. As muslims, we must be most kind and not make assumptions about anyone.

About your question Michael, the best answer you can get is one from a scholar. They are the only experts in interpreting hadiths and thus you should try to contact one if able.

Peace be unto you all.
 
If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."

[/B]This is basically saying that if the man has his orgasm first during sexual intercourse, the child will look like him, and if the woman has her orgasm first, then the child will look like her. Modern science has proven that it is genetics that determine whom the child looks like.

Can anyone here help me with this? Especially those who can read the hadith in the original Arabic.



I'll help you with the medical aspect of this question but not trangress the Islamic aspect of this..
first let's go over a few terms
Autosomal dominant-- is one of several ways that a trait or disorder can be passed down through families. If a disease is autosomal dominant, it means you only need to get the abnormal gene from one parent in order for you to inherit the disease. One of the parents may often have the disease.

Autosomal Recessive-- individuals who have received two copies of an autosomal gene, one copy from each parent. The gene is on an autosome, a nonsex chromosome. The parents are carriers who have only one copy of the gene and do not exhibit the trait because the gene is recessive to its normal counterpart gene.
If both parents are carriers, there is a 25% chance of a child inheriting both abnormal genes and, consequently, developing the disease

Mitochondrial inheritance: The inheritance of a trait encoded in the mitochondrial genome. Because of the oddities of mitochondria, mitochondrial inheritance does not obey the classic rules of genetics. Persons with a mitochondrial disease may be male or female but they are always related in the maternal line and no male with the disease can transmit it to his children.

X-linked dominant-- is mode of inheritance in which a gene on the X chromosome is dominant[1]. Females can be more frequently affected than males since they have two X chromosomes that could potentially carry the abnormal gene, whereas a male has only one. However, the Lyon hypothesis states that X-inactivation renders only one copy of the X chromosome active in each cell hence on average one would expect only one half of the cells to express the abnormal gene. The chance of passing on an X-linked dominant disorder differs between men and women.

X-linked recessive is a mode of inheritance in which a mutation in a gene on the X chromosome causes the phenotype to be expressed only (1) in males (who are necessarily hemizygous for the gene mutation because they have only one X chromosome) and (2) in females who are homozygous for the gene mutation (i.e., they have a copy of the gene mutation on each of their two X chromosomes).

X-linked inheritance-- means that the gene causing the trait or the disorder is located on the X chromosome. Females have two X chromosomes, while males have one X and one Y chromosome. Carrier females who have only one copy of the mutation do not usually express the phenotype, although differences in X chromosome inactivation can lead to varying degrees of clinical expression in carrier females since some cells will express one X allele and some will express the other



just a brief summary of how some traits and/or disorders are passed down.. there is also such thing as

Penetrance - the frequency of expression of an allele when it is present in the genotype of the organism (if 9/10 of individuals carrying an allele express the trait, the trait is said to be 90% penetrant)

Not all phenotypes that are expressed are manifested to the same degree. For polydactyly, an extra digit may occur on one or more appendages, and the digit can be full size or just a stub. Therefore, when the P allele is present it expresses variable expressivity.

Expressivity - variation in allelic expression when the allele is penetrant.



why am I giving you a brief analysis of all of this? It is simple, though we might know the science behind these phenomenon we can only PREDICT the chances of something happening but not whether or not it will actually happen-- for instance and please pay special attention because this is where your answer lies, and we'll go to what we actually know beyond expressivity and Penetrance which in and of itself is in the realm of the almighty . Say you know a lady who has cystic fibrosis, cystic fibrosis is an autosomal recessive trait, she marries a man who also carries this trait what are the chances they will have a child with that trait? will you can draw your Punnett square and your answer will be very apparent...say this couple has 4 children with cystic fibrosis, does that mean it is an Autosomal dominant trait and will affect every child? absolutely not. we can't predict who will be affected we can only use the terms when counseling such patients, you'll have a 25% chance with eery pregnancy of having a child with cystic fibrosis...

let's use another example-- say you have a coin with two sides heads and tails. there will always be a 50% chance when you flip a coin that it will be heads or tails correct? say I pick tails and the first 898 times you tossed it always landed on heads, does that mean my chances of having heads the next time you toss that coin is 100% guaranteed heads given your previous 898 attempts? absolutely not the chances don't change they will always be 50/50.. you can't predict in a toss which side it will land on, but it is a guarantee it will be one or the other..I hope you understand what I mean by this insha'Allah and hope it answers your question... science can't predict and tell you 100% fool proof when you've sex on a Monday you'll be guaranteed a male child.. this is simply beyond the realm of science.. they can tell you, there is a chance of male/female, there is no chance of fertility at all, there is a chance your child might end up with this 75% guarantee or 25% guarantee, there is a chance your child will be born with a disomy, a trisomy, might end up a hydatid mole, there is a chance it will look like you, like the mother or like the paternal uncle, they can't tell you which genes are going to combine in what sort of combination to predict the final phenotype of your conception-- .. since it is all a matter of the almighty...

sperms don't have just the assigned role we tend to think of them, which is to swim and fertalize, there is a whole life going on there, some sperms play guard to prevent other sperms from passing through, there is behavioral and chemical tactics to this microscopic cells, each having assigned roles that are beyond the purposes of this discussion here and go well beyond the reason for the question, and the same goes for eggs by the way.. so it could very well be certain maneuvers predict a particular outcome.. we can't tell since we haven't run a study to see what sort of genes mix on what pattern to form what, under some circumstances, and I don't see couples volunteering themselves to such a study... bottom line is 'genetics' has no way to invalidate the hadith..

Allah knows best.. this is my knowledge based on science not Islamic jurisprudence and pray that it was of help to you insha'Allah?

:w:
 
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Good post sis Ambrosia.

One point just to clarify, the hadith is not talking about the Sex of the child it is talking about appearance (resemblance).
 
:sl:

I recently read an article about a study that showed that women who were stressed during pregnancy were more likely to have a boy (or was it a girl? Not sure) than women who were not stressed. It mentioned that the implications of the study are very important because it is believed to be only the genetics that determine. However they hypothesised that there might be something about the conditions of the womb that means male foetus are more/less likely to be miscarriage (for lack of a better word) than females ones very early on (like a few days after conception or something).

The reason I mentioned this is that it shows that scientific knowledge is always changing. So it could be that the order of ejaculation favours some embryos over others, or something else. Just because we don't know about it yet, doesn't mean it is false.

Also, PurestAmbrosia raises and important point, that a person may have a gene and it might not be expressed at all.

Anyway, here is a related article:


Question: I came across a statement in the Sunnah wherein the Prophet (peace be upon him) says: “Yes indeed. A man’s fluid is thick and white and a women’s fluid is thin and yellow. Whichever of the two ejaculates first will be the one the child would resemble.” Does a woman does actually ejaculate? And isn’t resemblance based on genetic make-up and not on which partner ejaculates first?

Answered by Sheikh Sulaymân al-`Îsâ, professor at al-Imâm University in Riyadh


This is an important question requiring a detailed answer.

The first part of the question regards whether a woman releases a fluid during sexual intercourse the same as a man does. We say if the hadîth is authentic, then it is true and it should be accepted. The hadîth you have mentioned is related in Sahîh Muslim and is of undoubted authenticity.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) states in the hadîth that women has a fluid that is thin and yellow.

Allah says about his Prophet (peace be upon him): “Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire, it is no less than inspiration sent down to him” [Sûrah al-Najm: 3-4]

This issue was discussed by Dr. Muhammad `Ali al-Bârr in his book Human Creation between Medicine and the Qur’an under the heading “Does the woman release a fluid” (page 149).

He writes:

This had been a matter of disagreement. Sheikh al-Fakhr al-Râzî in his wonderful book, al-Mabâhith al-Mashriqiyyah, mentions that Aristotle denied that women have a fluid. Then Galen, the prominent Greek doctor strongly criticized Aristotle for that and proved that women have a fluid that differs in its nature from the fluid of men. It does not come out as an ejaculation but flows on the member and is a white moisture.

Al-Râzî then mentions that Umm Sulaym came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said: “O Messenger of Allah, Allah does not shy from the truth. Must a woman have a bath if she has has a sexual release while sleeping?”

He replied: “Yes, if she sees the fluid.” [Sahîh Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]

The release of fluid from woman’s vagina is something natural. It takes place during sexual intercourse or while sleeping. It is obligatory for her to have a bath thereafter. During sexual intercourse the woman’s fluid mixes with the man’s.

Dr. al-Bârr continues:

The woman releases two types of fluid. The first is a sticky fluid that flows inside her vagina and has nothing to do with the creation of the fetus. The second is a liquid that is released at a single occasion from the Graafian follicle in the ovary when the follicle is full of a yellow liquid.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The man’s fluid is white and woman’s is yellow.”

Turning our attention to the child resembling one of its parents, this is also confirmed by the prophetic hadîth. The child may sometimes resemble his father, his mother, one of his uncles, his grandparents, or he may closely resemble none of them.

Dr. Muhammad al-Bârr, in the same book (page 164) writes:

In brief, the factors governing the child’s resembling one parent, grandparent, or even coming with new attributes that do not belong to any of his relatives – like what happened at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) when al-Farâzî’s wife gave birth to a black baby while none of their relatives were black – is a very complicated matter. Genetics plays a very complicated role. Some of these genes follow the Mendelian model with respect to dominant and recessive genes and others do not.

Even those genes that submit to such laws might at times not act in accordance with those laws. The gene may or may not be fully expressed.

Modern medicine is still ignorant of many of the determining factors that bring about how much a child will resemble either of its parents. Until now, we do not know the role that may be played by the release of one fluid before the other in how the child will resemble one of his parents. Until and unless this is decisively determined in the future, we have no other choice but to simply believe what our Prophet (peace be upon him) said. He does not say anything except the truth.

In fact, this should encourage medical scholars to investigate these matters and discover new things.

I have given you the answer of Dr. Muhammad al-Bârr, because this is an important issue and I found his answer to be sufficient.

We have to believe in what Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) tell us. We are certain of the fact that Allah says: “Of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you.” [Sûrah al-Isrâ’: 85]

And Allah knows best.​

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=686&main_cat_id=31
 
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You can throw science out the window, if it doesn't deal with facts (which are always changing also),it's not worth listening. anyways, here is something science DEFYING stuff :)

A BLACK mother with a white husband has given birth to twin girls of different colours in a million-to-one medical miracle.
In what is believed to be an Australian first, mum Natasha Knight, 35, of Jamaican-English heritage, and father Michael Singerl, 34, of German heritage, conceived the girls, one black and one white, naturally.
The couple also has a five-year-old daughter Taylah, who is blue-eyed with blonde hair and a light olive complexion.
The twins, Alicia and Jasmin, were born in Queensland's Caboolture Hospital in May.
Experts say the chance of twins being born with such different physical characteristics is about a million to one.
Ms Knight said she was shocked when she saw how different her daughters were.
"When they were born you could see there was a colour difference straight away. We couldn't believe it,'' she said.
"Alicia's eyes were brown and her hair was dark. Jasmin's eyes were blue and her hair was white - you could hardly see her hair or her eyebrows.
"We were joking when I was pregnant about what if one baby looked like me and one looked like Michael. We joked about one light one, one dark one, so it was amazing when it actually happened.''





0,,5281349,00.jpg



I thought different face couples always had mix kids, not too black nor too white. Guess science isn't always right (cause its nothing more than man's limited discovery and hypothesis).

 
^Ummm I don't see how that defies science. Science says it is rare. Reality proves it is rare because we don't see it happening left, right and centre.

There is no need to trough science out the window. If you did, your computer would have to follow close behind it because it was built based on science...
 
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^Ummm I don't see how that defies science. Science says it is rare. Reality proves it is rare because we don't see it happening left, right and centre.

There is no need to trough science out the window. If you did, your computer would have to follow close behind it because it was built based on science...

there's difference established science (upon which things like PC is built) and speculative science that is often changing in light of new discoveries.
 
I thought different face couples always had mix kids, not too black nor too white. Guess science isn't always right (cause its nothing more than man's limited discovery and hypothesis).

[/INDENT]

This is an excellent post and it spotlights the fact that science can't with any adequate measure predict the outcome of anything with a 100% guarantee.. it isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as it is a trangression in what we call '3ilm al-ghyeb'-- ' in the realm of the unknown' for instance I can give you the formula sort of like the empiric or the predicted outcome of a situation but can't tell you what shape, color, size or form it will be.. and it is the same cross specie.. only Allah shapes you in the form he desires why someone ends up with one brown eye and one blue eye or both hazel though there is no family history of it?.. or how a plant takes form.. this difference that makes a stem diffrentiate into a leaf or the flowering part, if you break it down to the most basic units of purines and pyrimidines and couple them in their allotted sequence, you couldn't tell or initiate the process that gives a plant its morphology.. it is what you'd call a divine secret..

It is a few minutes before fajr and I don't want to write too much when I am not as lucid as I'd be another hour, but I hope all can get the picture of why in the Quran.. Allah says

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}
[Yusufali 35:28] And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
[Pickthal 35:28] And of men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, divers hues? The erudite among His bondmen fear Allah alone. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.

the word الْعُلَمَاء literally means scientists-- in other words those who fear Allah most are the scientists because they see the magistrate and aesthetics of creation.. unlike what atheists will have you believe most scientists believe in God or in some inexplicable/incomprehensible force behind those seemingly 'normal/natural phenomenon around us.. I know this is a trangression from the purpose of our topic, but some will have you believe that the more you learn the less you need God, in fact learning only serves to foster and reaffirm your beliefs, once you see how it all is so well orchestrated and engineered you have no choice but to render this to a higher force that is beyond our comprehension--conversely most Atheists I have met were english and/or philosophy teachers... too many Canterbury Tales, Epicurus and Democritus can only serve to deaden the souls of those who are already emotionally blunted and frankly down right ungrateful.. but it isn't the conclusion of the rational mind who doessome minmum level of reflection!
:w:
 
the word الْعُلَمَاء literally means scientists-- in other words those who fear Allah most are the scientists because they see the magistrate and aesthetics of creation..

:sl:

I thought this was referring to the 'ulama= scholars of the religion? :?
 
:sl:

I thought this was referring to the 'ulama= scholars of the religion? :?
:w:
that is why I despise googlers and people who rely on hearsay, there is no substitute for good schooling.

BTW. Sr.Ambrosia's mother tongue is Arabic.

there are gazillions of fields, any of which one can be scholar of (aalim can refer to holder of any knowlege depending on what is being talked about).

ilm simply means knowlege, knowlege of anything.

we have a saying in Pakistan:

"Neem hakeem khatra-e-jaan, Neem mullah khatra-e-eemaan"
 
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:sl:

I thought this was referring to the 'ulama= scholars of the religion? :?

3olama'a by itself means 'scientists' when you say '3alim zhara' means a scientist in atomic/nuclear physics as an ex... you can tell it doesn't just denote 'scholar of religion' by way of translation of both pickthal and yusfali or by using any Arabic dictionary.. neither say those who fear Allah most are 'scholars of religion'... basically anyone who is deeply learned and reflects will reach the same conclusion..

Allah knows best
thank you for the Q
:w:
 
that is why I despise googlers and people who rely on hearsay, there is no substitute for good schooling.

BTW. Sr.Ambrosia's mother tongue is Arabic.

Must you insult me for asking a simple question? For your information, I did not use google to come to that conclusion, but rather knowledge I received from other students of knowledge. And even if I didn't, how can the Quran be referring to scientists by name when they did not even exists at the prophets time?

3olama'a by itself means 'scientists' when you say '3alim zhara' means a scientist in atomic/nuclear physics as an ex... you can tell it doesn't just denote 'scholar of religion' by way of translation of both pickthal and yusfali or by using any Arabic dictionary.. neither say those who fear Allah most are 'scholars of religion'... basically anyone who is deeply learned and reflects will reach the same conclusion..

:sl:

Thaks for your reply sis. But as far as I know there was no such thing as scientists in the prophets time, wouldn't the name 'alim have been attributed to them later on?

Anyway, in tafsir Ibn Kathir it mentioned explicitly that it is referring to people are scholars of the religion:

﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ﴾


(It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.) meaning, only those who have knowledge truly fear Him as He should be feared, because the more they know about the Almighty, All-Powerful, All-Knowing Who has the most perfect attributes and is described with the most beautiful Names, the more they will fear Him. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas commented on the Ayah:


﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ﴾


(It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.) those who know that Allah is able to do all things. Ibn `Abbas said, "The one among His servants who knows about Ar-Rahman, is the one who does not associate anything in worship with Him; the one who accepts as lawful that which He has permitted and accepts as unlawful that which He has prohibited. He obeys His commands and is certain that he will meet Him and be brought to account for his deeds. Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "Fear is what stands between you and disobeying Allah, may He be glorified.'' Al-Hasan Al-Basri said, "The knowledgeable person is the one who fears Ar-Rahman with regard to the Unseen, who likes that which Allah wants him to like, and who shuns that which angers Allah.'' Then Al-Hasan recited:


﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ﴾


(It is only those among His servants who have knowledge that fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Almighty, Oft-Forgiving.) Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated from Abu Hayyan At-Taymi from a man who said, "It used to be said that the knowledgeable are of three types: (first) one who knows Allah and the command of Allah, (second) one who knows Allah but does not know the command of Allah, and (third) one who knows the command of Allah but does not know Allah. The one who knows Allah and the command of Allah is the one who fears Allah and knows the limits (Hudud) and the obligatory duties (Fara'id). The one who knows Allah but does not know the command of Allah is the one who fears Allah but does not know the limits (Hudud) and the obligatory duties (Fara'id). The one who knows the command of Allah but does not know Allah is the one who knows the limits (Hudud) and the obligatory duties (Fara'id) but does not fear Allah.''


Allah knows best. :)
 
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