Hadith and Science

[NoName55]

Must you insult me for asking a simple question?

no It looked to me as if someone was trying to belittle Sr. Ambrosia and when people try that I go berserk, when sister Manal said Scientist, did she say it was to do with a nuclear physicist

how can the Quran be referring to scientists by name when they did not even exists at the prophets time?

Scientist does not only mean a modern day bomb maker or discoverer or inventor (both discoverer and inventor have been around probably since the beginning) but Science simply means ilm, knowlege or a way to find truth or knowlege.

I shall wait for Br. Woodrow to come back from iftaar before I attempt any further explanations

for now, suffice it to say

Science: knowlege (of anything)
Scientist: A learned person (who understands any field)

 

[NoName55]

in response to edit and additions to post #25

Things have changed somewhat since days of ibn kathir. Today Justice usmani and people like hime have access to more resources at once than even his father Mufti Shafi did.

As such they are better placed to compare and draw from knowledge of all Muslim Heroes (at once) than ibn kathir ever could

(It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.)

still I do not see him saying Aalim = knower of religion.
PS. It is time for me to resign from this thread!

 

[جوري]

Thaks for your reply sis. But as far as I know there was no such thing as scientists in the prophets time, wouldn't the name 'alim have been attributed to them later on?


Allah knows best.

dear sis.. I'd like for us to take a look at the verse in its entirety and pls keep in mind the transcendence of the Quran, if anyone were to interpret it at the time, it would have been prophet Mohammed himself PBUH, but there are things in the Quran that are still being discovered today that were just simply memorized by people back then .. part of its beauty and its beauty and miracles are countless is that there is something in it for every generation.. we can certainly take the linear approach to a subject based on one interpretation or translation, I personally wouldn't recommend that approach, but I am not exegetical expert.. for instance and I quote Dr. Gary Miller

The Female Bee In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time - that the bees that one sees flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king.

certainly that isn't something a 'scholar in religion' would have come to discover during the prophet's time or any time as I certainly believe all fields of science will lead to Allah.. this sort of thing would take a '3alim' in say zoology or biology in general

.. look at the first words of the verse, 'wamena a'naas wa'dwab, wal'an3am mokhtalif alwanih' and what its relation is to someone reflecting?.. the words aren't as simple as all that, if you think of it from an evolutionary front, or a scientific front you'll undoubtedly reach a conclusion not unlike say someone who was trained at al'azhar or even better for if he/she restricted themselves to just memorizing instead of trying to understand the meaning by branching into other fields simply take it for its poetry and stop The Muslim world wouldn't have reached the height of enlightenment in the midst of Europe's darkest ages..
someone who looks into the painstaking of what goes into making just one functional protein, let alone a wing of a fly in all its complexity, let alone the adornement in it by various colors and contrast to nature, further into its the usefulness in it for humanity in the making of silk or honey or other material for us, or even for purpose of procreation amongest its own specie, will undoubtedly lead one to think of the greatness of Allah...

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}​

[Yusufali 35:28] And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
[Pickthal 35:28] And of men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, divers hues? The erudite among His bondmen fear Allah alone. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Forgiving. ...

This verse was explained to me by someone whom I admire very much, and who himself wrote three books on Islamic science and someone who was a driving force behind my pursuing science-- and every day indeed, I marvel at the sophisitcation and ingenuity of Allah's creation...

I was reading an article today produced by Duke University Medical School producing a theory: the appendix "acts as a good safe house for bacteria." http://www.qj.net/Appendix-has-a-function-according-to-Duke-University-study/pg/49/aid/104308
here is something for the longest time the atheists held on to as a 'rudimentary remnant', a product that has no use and left there due to some 'evolutionary' process meant to disprove the need for God.. well what do you know.. God created it for a purpose, we just didn't know what it was...
scientists of all forms sister, if they are sincere will reach the truth.. all the roads will eventually lead to one...

Allah knows best--

now a word from my heart.. I really can't stand, absolutely detest it when Muslims fight amongest themselves.. we are all here to learn, no one is more knowledgeable than anyone, save for what Allah chooses to teach us, so let's all share it in good spirit.. I have nothing to prove to anyone.. and I know none of the Muslims here have anything to prove to me..
I keep this LI family as God is my witness in my prayers during tarawi7-- and I pray you do the same for me

 

[Malaikah]

I just don't understand how you can translate the word in the Quran to mean scientist if they did not exist in the past...

It is like taking the word 'sayyara' from surat Yusuf and saying it means car because that is the word Arabs use for cars now- but there were no cars in the time of Prophet Yusuf and the word originally used to mean caravan, not car... :-\

Perhaps the meaning could be more general than a scholar of the religion (I do not know, I have never heard it being explained as anything other than that), however to restrict it to mean scientist, I really don't understand how that is possible.

I hope you can see the point I am trying to make.

 

[Skillganon]

WHat is the linguistic meaning of the word?

Maybe one can show that

 

[جوري]

I just don't understand how you can translate the word in the Quran to mean scientist if they did not exist in the past...

It is like taking the word 'sayyara' from surat Yusuf and saying it means car because that is the word Arabs use for cars now- but there were no cars in the time of Prophet Yusuf and the word originally used to mean caravan, not car... :-\

Perhaps the meaning could be more general than a scholar of the religion (I do not know, I have never heard it being explained as anything other than that), however to restrict it to mean scientist, I really don't understand how that is possible.

I hope you can see the point I am trying to make.

I do indeed dear sister.. as well I hope you see my point when I say the Quran wasn't created for the sole inhabitants of Arabia 14-15 centuries ago? and like the example given with the female bee, certainly there were no folks at the time of the prophet with sophisticated machinery to look into such particulars or even into the geology mentioned or the high altitude hypoxia of it, the physiology of it the astronomy of it.. Do you see my point? If you'll take it even literally 3alim mean a scientist I gather the word hakeem as you use in urdu? but it doesn't get into specifics.. that is something you've construed based on someone's interpretation... it could very well be just religious scholars but in the context of the entire verse and looking at the entirety of the Quran.. I'll venture into saying I think Allah meant to include those who deeply reflect... there are many ahadith speaking of the virtues of a servant who is 3alim over one who is 3abid.. surely there is a difference..

 

[NoName55]

if there were no scientists of today's understanding, then how did people know the use of metals? inventing blades for swords etc. did a formula fell in to their lap magically and told them at what temperture the metals melted?

why is uloom al Quraan translated as sciences of Quraan?
why is uloom al Hadith, Hadith sciences?

for the final, final and very final time, the scientists means العلماء

Akhi al-madani, please help me out here

 

[جوري]

found a whole page on this but it is in Arabic.. will try to translate it later when I have the time insha'Allah

إنما يخشى الله من عباده العلماء (*)

هذه الآية قالها عالم الكيمياء هبة الله المشرقي لزميله عالم الفلك الإنكليزي ، فأسلم . وكان السبب في ذلك ما يلي :

" جيمس جونز " وهو من أشهر علماء الفلك في القرن العشرين ، خارجاً من جامعة كمبردج حيث يدرِّس فيها هو والمشرقي ، وكان الجو ممطراً بغزارة ، فالتقاه زميله هبة الله على باب الجامعة والمطر يتقطر من وجهه وأذنيه ، بينما مظلته تحت إبطه مع كتاب ضخم ، فسأله المشرقي : إلى أين ، قال إلى الكنيسة ، قال ولماذا ولا أعلمك من المصلين ولا المتدينين . قال أصبحت منهم وأنا ذاهب لأسجد لله سجدة طويلة وأقول له ما أعظمك ! ما أعظمك يا رب ! . قال المشرقي والمطر ما زال ينهمر عليهما غزيراً ، وما هذا تحت إبطك قال الإنجيل ، قال وهذه ؟ فالتفت جيمس جونز فوجد أنها مظلته ، لم يفطن لاستعمالها وهو بأمس الحاجة إليها لأنه كان ما زال شارداً ذهنه في الفلك وتعقيداته وعجيب نظامه وعظمة خالقه ومبرمجه ومدبِّره وحافظه، والذي هو الله تعالى لا شريك له ولا مساعد ، ومن يستطيع أن يساعد في حمل ثِقل واحد من أثقال هذه الغابات النارية ـ النورانية ، أو أن يلمَّ بأسفارها واتجاهاتها وحركاتها ناهيك عن خلقها على عظائمها وعجائبها بين حرفين : الكاف والنون . ومن العدم ، فقد أثبت العلم أن المادة ليست أزلية ، لا سيما بعد اكتشاف " القانـون الثانــي للحـرارة الدينـاميكيــــــة " Second law of Thermo Dynamics . هذا القانون يبرهن أن الحرارة تنتقل دائماً من ( وجود حراري ) إلى ( عدم حراري ) والعكس مستحيل .

وبناءً على هذا الإكتشاف العلمي الرائع ثبت أن موجودات ما تحت السماء الدنيا من نجوم وكواكب وأجرام سماوية تتناقص كفاءَتها مع الزمن ، ولا بدَّ من أن تتساوى في وقت ما ـ إذا شاء الله ـ حرارة جميع الموجودات ، وعندئذ ، بعد استقراء هذا الوضع من الناحية العلمية ، تنتهي الحياة أو تتوقف على هذه الأرض وتحت هذه السماء .

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(*) آية قرآنية رقمها 28 سورة فاطر .

نحن استطردنا .. وتركنا جيمس جونز يبتسم ، إذ انتبه لشروده عن مظلته حتى تبلل ولم يشعر ، ودعا صديقه ليشرح له في لقاء ٍ عصر ذلك اليوم ، سبب إيمانه العميق والفجائي .

ومع تناول الشاي أخذ عالم الفلك يتحدث عن بعض وجوه هذا النظام الإلـهي العظيم ، للسماء وكواكبها ونجومها ، وعالم الكيمياء القرآني ، يستمع ويوافق ، حتى وصل إلى درجة لم يعد رأسه يحتمل ، من عجائب تحركات الأجرام السماوية وتعقيداتها وأرقامها وأبعادها . فأشار إلى صديقه أن كفى ، ثم استأذنه بأن يتلو عليه آية من القرآن الكريم . قال :

قال الله تبارك وتعالى :

{ ألـم تر أن الله أنزل من السماء ماءً فأخرجنا به ثمراتٍ مختلفاً ألوانها ومن الجبال جدد بيض وحمر مختلف ألوانها وغرابيب سود. ومن الناس والدوابِّ والأنعام مختلف ألوانه كذلك إنما يخشى اللهَ من عباده العلماءُ . سورة فاطر الآيتان 27 و 28 } .

فاستعادها جيمس جونز وتمعَّن فيها ، وتداول مع هبة الله بشأن تاريخها وتفسيرها . إلى أن انتهى إلى القرار بأن هذا القرآن هو يقيناً من لدن الله تبارك وتعالى ، مقراً بأن محمداً (ص) هو رسول الله . فبادره المشرقي بقوله : على هذا الأساس أنت أسلمت يا صديقي . قال : إذا كان الإسلام هو الإقرار بوحدانية الله كما في كتابكم والإيمان بالقرآن منزلاً من لدن الله تبارك وتعالى وبمحمد ٍ رسولاً من عند الله ، فأنا أسلمت حقاً . فقال له : هل أكتب ما جرى بيننا وأنشره ؟ قال : اكتب وأنشر . وأنا شاكر لله وبذلك فخور .

لماذا ( إنما يخشى اللهَ من عباده العلماءُ ) ولا سيما الذين يتتبعون في الآفاق وفي الأنفس عجائب خلق الله وغرائب آياته، وبالأخص منهم علماء الفلك ؟ ذلك لقوله تعالى : { لَخلقُ السماوات والأرض أكبر من خلق الناس ... سورة غافر آية 57 } .


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[Malaikah]

I do indeed dear sister.. as well I hope you see my point when I say the Quran wasn't created for the sole inhabitants of Arabia 14-15 centuries ago?

Of course, but that doesn't mean we can change the meaning of words. (Like in my example of the word sayyara in surat Yusuf). We must understand the meaning of the words in the Quran using the meaning of the word used during the prophets time.

I am not arguing that you can't say that a scientists falls under the general meaning of the word 'alim in the verse (maybe it can, maybe it can't- I don't know), but to translate it as scientist, that just doesn't make sense, because it means that everyone else is excluded from the verse (such as scholars of the religion).

there are many ahadith speaking of the virtues of a servant who is 3alim over one who is 3abid.. surely there is a difference..

Yes, however all the explanations of this hadith that I have come across understand it as a 'alim of the religion...

 

[Malaikah]

why is uloom al Quraan translated as sciences of Quraan?
why is uloom al Hadith, Hadith sciences?

To my understanding we are talking about science in the specific meaning of studying the natural world by experimental methods, like chemistry, physics and biology.

 

[Skillganon]

I agree with sis Malaikah.

 

[جوري]

one more thing I realize there is a post I shall reply to insha'Allah

Translation form


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N العالم
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scientist N

http://online.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp...translate&lang1=23&lang2=ar&source_id=2239512

 

[Skillganon]

if there were no scientists of today's understanding, then how did people know the use of metals? inventing blades for swords etc. did a formula fell in to their lap magically and told them at what temperture the metals melted?

why is uloom al Quraan translated as sciences of Quraan?
why is uloom al Hadith, Hadith sciences?

Akhi al-madani, please help me out here

I think that is due to it's methodology...i.e. the science of it.

Science from latin scientia means knowledge.

In general science has a methodology that is adopted in aquiring knowledge so does studying Quran and Hadith.

The word science can be used loosely in those terms.

 

[جوري]

Of course, but that doesn't mean we can change the meaning of words. (Like in my example of the word sayyara in surat Yusuf). We must understand the meaning of the words in the Quran using the meaning of the word used during the prophets time.

I am not arguing that you can't say that a scientists falls under the general meaning of the word 'alim in the verse (maybe it can, maybe it can't- I don't know), but to translate it as scientist, that just doesn't make sense, because it means that everyone else is excluded from the verse (such as scholars of the religion).



Yes, however all the explanations of this hadith that I have come across understand it as a 'alim of the religion...

sister here we are comparing apples and oranges.. but I am not following at all least of which by the example you've given which is a conclusion that does not follow from the premises that are for the purpose of this discussion---also I don't understand, where you've concluded from any of my posts 'excluding' everyone else? the word literally says 'al'olama' plural form --in fact if one thing it does it be very inclusive those who are 'erudite' as per yusfali, those who are 'knowledgeable' as per pickthal.. those who are scientists literally.. so to be honest you've lost me with this last post.. we can just agree to disagree at this stage..

btw to save everyone the Arabic page.. it was basically between two friends who have gone to cambridge both scientists, one of them a physicist (A scientist trained in physics) who was telling his friend a Muslim how he must hurry to church to pray for the one who made this universe so luminous and glorious after brief discussions of the science in the Quran, he decided to convert to Islam and as you can see the openning of the page the verse
إنما يخشى الله من عباده العلماء used.. in context of a learned physicist --those who fear Allah most are his 'knowledgable' servants.. I am sure a similar dialogue could have taken place amongst a couple of knowledgable servants in biochemistry or a couple of Al'Azhar scholars ( Allah a3lam).. the point is to reflect on creation not to argue semantics...

 

[Malaikah]

Okay, you lost me big time. Let's just forget about it inshaallah.

 

[Skillganon]

sister here we are comparing apples and oranges.. but I am not following at all least of which by the example you've given which is a conclusion that does not follow from the premises that are for the purpose of this discussion---also I don't understand, where you've concluded from any of my posts 'excluding' everyone else? the word literally says 'al'olama' plural form --in fact if one thing it does it be very inclusive those who are 'erudite' as per yusfali, those who are 'knowledgeable' as per pickthal.. those who are scientists literally.. so to be honest you've lost me with this last post.. we can just agree to disagree at this stage..

btw to save everyone the Arabic page.. it was basically between two friends who have gone to cambridge both scientists, one of them a physicist (A scientist trained in physics) who was telling his friend a Muslim how he must hurry to church to pray for the one who made this universe so luminous and glorious after brief discussions of the science in the Quran, he decided to convert to Islam and as you can see the openning of the page the verse
إنما يخشى الله من عباده العلماء used.. in context of a learned physicist --those who fear Allah most are his 'knowledgable' servants.. I am sure a similar dialogue could have taken place amongst a couple of knowledgable servants in biochemistry or a couple of Al'Azhar scholars ( Allah a3lam).. the point is to reflect on creation not to argue semantics...

Do I count?

I am a scientist but I am lacking in Arabic..



Anyway...

I take the word to mean a person of religious knowledge. Preferebly the word scholar..

 

[جوري]

Okay, you lost me big time. Let's just forget about it inshaallah.

 

[noodles]

Big time losers

(slowly slides away from the thread)

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

the word الْعُلَمَاء literally means scientists-- in other words those who fear Allah most are the scientists because they see the magistrate and aesthetics of creation..

I'm not an Arabic speaker, so I can't comment on the exact meaning of this word, but, as has been pointed out by another poster, "science" comes from scientia, Latin for knowledge, so scientists are literally 'people with knowledge', which can of course be applied to any intellectual discipline. This would obviously explain why the word has been translated as 'scientists' by some people.

unlike what atheists will have you believe most scientists believe in God or in some inexplicable/incomprehensible force behind those seemingly 'normal/natural phenomenon around us..

I'm sure most scientists will readily admit there are unexplained forces in the universe, but that's very different from believing in god.

conversely most Atheists I have met were english and/or philosophy teachers...

Did you have anyone in mind in particular here?

too many Canterbury Tales, Epicurus and Democritus can only serve to deaden the souls of those who are already emotionally blunted and frankly down right ungrateful..

Have you ever read the Canterbury Tales, Epicurus or Democritus? I find it hard to believe you could find them 'soul-deadening', particularly the first, which is one of the most joyous and humane celebrations of life in all literature. It also has a thoroughly Christian world-view, so it's not exactly Atheism 101.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


I'm not an Arabic speaker, so I can't comment on the exact meaning of this word, but, as has been pointed out by another poster, "science" comes from scientia, Latin for knowledge, so scientists are literally 'people with knowledge', which can of course be applied to any intellectual discipline. This would obviously explain why the word has been translated as 'scientists' by some people.

ok!

I'm sure most scientists will readily admit there are unexplained forces in the universe, but that's very different from believing in god.

what leads a scientist to admit to one will just as easily lead him/her to the other.. it is the natural judgment reached after consideration of the first.. Besides that, I hear it first hand from my colleagues so I'll speak freely for the society that I am a part of and as an individual represent-- atheists makeup 7% of the world's population.. too paltry to consider, and as I have said prior most that I have encountered weren't clustered in any scientific field.. rather the three I have met in academia two were English profs. one was a philosophy prof.. the rest were just random ingrates who didn't even give their atheism much thought.. I believe them to be the worst of the bunch unfortunately!

Did you have anyone in mind in particular here?

Yes --one nasty broad in my undergrad comes to mind immediately! .. with deadly bad breath who was keen on mocking all religionists! she didn't bring any light to her class, wanted the black students to use Ebonics (A nonstandard form of American English characteristically spoken by African Americans in the United States) as she stated it was a dying art, but she was a racist who probably didn't want them to excel.. I am sure many a job interviewer is really looking for that 'dying art'-- she was never animated or enthused except to affirm her lack of belief in God ( as she always used to question even random folks who weren't addressing her)-- 'what does God have to do with it, what does God have to do with anything?' she'd retort constantly..
A crying shame really.. many people consider English and philosophy to be their 'fun courses' but she managed to turn even that, into the anti-climax.... I thought it was peculiar to be in a position of power and to abuse it the way she did, the least she could have done was be politically correct on occasion?!.. she had tenure I suppose it gave her a back bone?

Have you ever read the Canterbury Tales , Epicurus or Democritus? I find it hard to believe you could find them 'soul-deadening', particularly the first, which is one of the most joyous and humane celebrations of life in all literature. It also has a thoroughly Christian world-view, so it's not exactly Atheism 101.

Peace

No, of course not.. I never read anything outside the Quran (you know that scandalous waste of time).. I don't know where I got the idea to mention them here?.. must have come to me in a dream?

I find 'atheists' of deadened souls.. naturally the soul isn't even something they believe in, so I don't think my observation would have many implications for them under any light?

I found the Canterbury Tales, too sexually charged and indulgent for so-called 'pilgrims'-- unmoderated decadence is an attribute I usually associate with atheists if you'll forgive the resemblance? understanding the finer nuances of literature, can/ and will enable one to make some abstract comparisons-- it is really not that difficult to pick a book and read it especially if of interest to you, or is part of your curriculum.. what do you think?

like wise, I can point out several paintings in art history of religious themes that had an underlying message of mockery to the very subject of religion even though commissioned by the church-- pointing out the sexual nature done by way of trees behind the Virgin Mary or even using dead hookers to depict her ( fine art to some) sacrilegious to others!-- Hard to believe as it is, us Muslim bumpkins even the lesser 'female type', through opression, and time wastage spent in pursuit of what you'd consider useless recitations, prayers and fast, are still 'quasi schooled'!

It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--- Tennyson

peace!