Hadith and Women

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Starting to have second thoughts.



So before I begin, let me ask our three hadith-rejectors here what their formal education in ahadith is, just to confirm. Is it incorrect if I say that you are just Muslims who have come across some hadith that you found troubling and instead of going to the sources of knowledge, reading the commentary of the hadith, you have instead decided to just reject hadith altogether?

Most of the degrading, humiliation and poor treatment in these Muslim Countries for women, came from the desertion of the Quran, and refusal of the word of God in favor of some fabrications written in Hadith books

Nonsense. When the Islamic empire was at its peak, following the Qur'an AND THE SUNNAH, there were literally thousands of Muslim women who were scholars. And the fact that really debunks your argument is that most of them were HADITH SCHOLARS. So much for hadith being the invention of male chauvinsim. Here is a very short online list of some famous Muslim women scholars:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=846&main_cat_id=2

Now let us examine your allegations. You need to bring the references to back up what you say.

"Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective". (Bukhary).

That is NOT what the hadith says at all! Why have you not quoted the entire hadith? Quote the entire hadith and then we can discuss it. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was not making a statement on women's intelligence or status. He was encouraging them to donate in the cause of Allah swt by pointing out that they had less religious obligations in various things. He did not say that they were defective!

Because women usually do not have the physical strength of man, hadithists see them as "naturally defective".

Strangely, these same 'hadithists' seem to fully accept the narration of women in hadith on equal level with that of men. Just look at all the hadith reported from A'isha rd.

They forget that women have other natural qualities in which they are superior to men, like their ability to endure pain, the ability to bear children, etc.

Do they? Actually, I think some of the greatest examples of Islam's elevation of women are found in the HADITH. Take the following for example:

The Prophet singles out the education of women and their kind treatment.
Anyone who cares for three daughter, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them well, they will enter paradise. (Abu Dawud)
Notice that he didn't mention sons in the above hadith.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes the righteous woman in the most beautiful way:
The life of this world is bountiful, and the best of the bounties of this world is the righteous woman. (Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh makes kindness and compassion to women integral to one's piety:
The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. (Ibn Hibban)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh orders consulting with women:
Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh describes men and women equally:
"If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)." (Adh-Dhahabi in Al-Kabâ'ir)

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh told his followers not to marry women for some superficial/external benefit but for their piety:
A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so marry one who is religious, may you be blessed (Bukhari)
This is of course, at a time when women were only used and valued for external appearance of some other superficial characteristic.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to help his wives doing housework at home:
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "He kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Bukhari)​

We can clearly see that if someone rejects hadith, they reject with it much of the value Islam grants to women.

Their problem is that they have taken the words of men instead of the words of God.

Your problem is that you come across hadith that you don't understand and think conflict with Islamic values and instead of studying the context and narrations and commentary, and going to the scholars of hadith, you instead pronounce yourself a Muhaddith and declare that the hadith cannot be true.

Ther eis no dispute amongst scholars (not laymen who have no formal education in islamic sciences) that an authentic hadith from the Prophet Muhammad saws is confirmed as his words.

is it any wonder that hadithists claim that the majority of people in Hell are women????!

I answered this here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/100453-post17.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/33428-post6.html

I believe it is time to go back to the Quran

I agree completely, and the Qur'an says very clearly to ask those with knowledge if you know not.

I think the problem is that even when acknowledging a hadith is weak or unauthentic, possibly even fabricated, imams/scholars such as the auther of this book find no hesitancy in using it to prooving their point while even acknowledging its un-authenticity!

He is not using it to 'prove' a point, he is citing it to show another relevant hadith in case someone came across it elsewhere and wondered about its status.

Even a hadith that is classed weak is taken to be a hadith of the prophet and given the same credibility as a strong one.

Nonsense. Clearly you need to study the science of hadith before passing judgement on a field you have no knowledge about.

 

[AceOfHearts]

Re: Starting to have second thoughts.

Nonsense. Clearly you need to study the science of hadith before passing judgement on a field you have no knowledge about.

I am not a 'hadith rejector'. I would appreciate you dont pass such sweeping judgement over me before you even heard me enough. How do you know whether I have studied science of hadiths or not anyway?

I believe what I said is the truth. I should have been clearer on that quote of me you mentioned at the very end. When I said even the unauthentioc hadiths are given the same credit as authentic ones, I meant that even these unauthentic ones are mentioned as if they were authentic because my view is that un-authentic nerrations should not be mentioned at all.

If they are un-authentic why should they be used to all? I dont agree that the auther of the book was mentioning those hadiths to make people aware of he lack of authenticity of those nerrations, indeed most would be reading them for the first time like I was. He was deliberately using unauthentic hadiths to proove his point.

Anyway brother, I dont wish to prolong the discussion on this matter.

Let's keep the focus a bit more on sister Sweet Peas problem.

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

As-salamu'alaikum,

some hadith are Evil

Evil because they slander the Prophet.

If you are a Muslim of any kind you have to agree about the devilish nature of such hadith -

because these are lies against the Prophet, lies against Islam and against Allah.


- EVIL lies.

 

[Ghazi]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

As-salamu'alaikum,

some hadith are Evil

Evil because they slander the Prophet.

If you are a Muslim of any kind you have to agree about the devilish nature of such hadith -

because these are lies against the Prophet, lies against Islam and against Allah.


- EVIL lies.

Salaam

Care to share these hadiths

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

salam,

why don't you ask one of your scholars to show you some?

They'll tell you there are Hadith they believe are false/corrupt - evil ones.

It's not like they disagree with what I've said.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Starting to have second thoughts.

I am not a 'hadith rejector'.

You clearly expressed your approval for what Sister RighteousLady had written, which was a call to reject the hadith in Sahih Bukhari. I don't know how to interpret that any other way.

When I said even the unauthentioc hadiths are given the same credit as authentic ones, I meant that even these unauthentic ones are mentioned as if they were authentic because my view is that un-authentic nerrations should not be mentioned at all.

There are some unauthentic narrations which are very widespread. Most people have heard the narration "seek knowledge, even unto China" which is not authentic. Shouldn't we inform the public about unauthentic hadith? Other than that, I agree with you completely that unauthentic hadith should not be mentioned at all unless it be to refute a common misconception by commenting on the hadith's unatuhenticity.

He was deliberately using unauthentic hadiths to proove his point.

First, you can't read his mind, nor can you prove what you suspect of him. So what's the point in trying to attack this scholar? Second, even if we suppose that he made a mistake in mentioning that hadith, a simple human error, then he still would not convey the wrong impression since he follows that up immediately with the section I have quoted which speaks out for women's rights and mandates good treatment of women.

some hadith are Evil

Evil because they slander the Prophet.

Are there fabricated hadith? Yes. Have the scholars identified them and sorted them out? Yes. Does this discredit the authentic hadith compilations? No.

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

Are the scholars infallible? NO.

Can they make mistakes? YES.

Have they made mistakes? YES.


Scholars are human-beings and after going through thousands of Hadith, to say blindly that they are 100% accurate in filtering out the evil hadith shows clear ignorance and an inclination to raise the status of human-mortals to a Divine level.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

Are the scholars infallible? NO.

Can they make mistakes? YES.

Have they made mistakes? YES.


Scholars are human-beings and after going through thousands of Hadith, to say blindly that they are 100% accurate in filtering out the evil hadith shows clear ignorance and an inclination to raise the status of human-mortals to a Divine level.

bro,
There's a difference between saying that one scholar erred over a particular hadith versus saying that the entire consensus of Muslims scholars for over a millenium has not only been mistaken but blatantly opposed to the Qur'anic teachings. The first claim is plausible, the latter is not.

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

As-salamu'alaikum,

It's not as black and white as you seem to think.

Interpretations are often made at a slant, bending verses to conform to Hadith - be they evil/corrupt ones.

This is not a recent phenomenon either, and just because it's been like that for a long time does not add credit to its validity.

Since we're on the topic of misogyny, I can give you the example of 'obedience to the husband',

..where scholars have been wrongly interpreting obedience of Allah (in the Qur'an) as obedience to husbands, using the excuse that Ibn Abbas was reported to have said it - whereas the Qur'an clearly says otherwise!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

It's not as black and white as you seem to think.

I don't see how you've demonstatred otherwise. Since the time of the companions, all the Islamic scholars till now have had consensus on the validity of hadith, so how is it possible that someone could come with anything contrary to that now? I can accept that many one or two sholars of hadith could have erred in their judgement of a particular hadith, but how can one claim that the entire consensus of all scholars on a hadith has been false?

This is not a recent phenomenon either, and just because it's been like that for a long time does not add credit to its validity.

Is it conceivable that Muslims scholars everywhere, for centuries have all been wrong?

Since we're on the topic of misogyny, I can give you the example of 'obedience to the husband',

..where scholars have been wrongly interpreting obedience of Allah (in the Qur'an) as obedience to husbands, using the excuse that Ibn Abbas was reported to have said it - whereas the Qur'an clearly says otherwise!

First, if you're quoting a source, it would be nice for you to give me the source. Secondly, obedience and respect between the husband and the wife are part of Islam, and the Qur'an does not say otherwise. That doesn't mean that obedience to Allah specifically means obedience to one's husband, but that obedience to one's husband (so long as it is not against Islam) is an important aspect included there. Likewise, a husband's consultation, respect, consideration for his wife are also included as part of his obedience to God.

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

salam,

I feel kind of reluctant to quote to you a verse as that is more than likely to lead to you posting links / articles from tafsir or sayings of scholars on the verse, instead of your own input.

However, Qur'anic verse 4:34 remains one of the most misunderstood and abused verses in relation to women.

Of-course mutual respect and consultation are important in a marriage, but patriarchal interpretations have made the husband almost god-like (hadith about prostration to husbands springs to mind).

Hence, women are wrongfully made to believe there is an emphasis on the OBEDIENCE to the husband, which is reflected in your speaking of 'obedience' in relation to husbands, but not in relation to wives.

If this is about mutualism, why make-up false doctrine about having to obey husbands specifically?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

Of-course mutual respect and consultation are important in a marriage, but patriarchal interpretations have made the husband almost god-like (hadith about prostration to husbands springs to mind).

The issue here is how are we to intepret the Qur'an - has God left it up to the whims of people? No. God has sent us a messenger who's guidance and teachings we are to follow, and we have to interpret the Qur'an in light of the authentic ahadith and the understanding of the early Muslim companions, the immediate recipients of the message. Their understand was the correct understanding.

The following article explains the concept of men being protectors and maintainers of women:
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme.cfm?cat_id=37&sub_cat_id=664

Hence, women are wrongfully made to believe there is an emphasis on the OBEDIENCE to the husband, which is reflected in your speaking of 'obedience' in relation to husbands, but not in relation to wives.

Because there is an emphasis on obedience to the husband in Islam, because he is considered the leader in the household. But leadrship does not equate superiority. The husband and the wife have complementary roles in the family. In democratic societies you will find leaders making decisions after consulting the people and based on the views of the people. This is the same thing for a family.

If this is about mutualism, why make-up false doctrine about having to obey husbands specifically?

I'm sorry but how did you come to the conclusion that obedience to one's husband is a false and made-up doctrine?! Please provide your evidence brother.

 

[AceOfHearts]

Re: Starting to have second thoughts.

You clearly expressed your approval for what Sister RighteousLady had written, which was a call to reject the hadith in Sahih Bukhari. I don't know how to interpret that any other way.

How? Where? Please do proove to me where I "clearly expressed" my "approval"!

Is it because I called her a 'sister' out of common courtasy (just like I refered to you as a 'brother')?

In my book, anybody who believes in one Allah, His revealed book - the Quran and the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) is a believer.

If the enemies attack us, they will attack us all! Regardless of whether one believes in hadith or no hadith. They see us as one enemy. So it is paramount to not let our differences get in the way of our unity.

Good job you moved the hadith discussion here. Jazzakallah khayr.

Lastly, I agree to differ on the matter of the author quoting those un-authentic ahadiths [with extremely obscene contents, notice the hadith on your sig].

Peace to you.

 

[seek.learn]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

Salaam o alaikum,

AllahuAlim.
May Allah guide us, Aameen.

Just wanted to present an opinion.
Without a doubt there are false hadith out there. What we need to do is educate ourselves and then, InshaAllah, educate people about it. No one denies that there are false hadith, but as brother Ansar says, can you completely ignore All hadith on that basis?

And, about the author having quoted false or week hadith. First and foremost, please, I only present my opinion since I havent read this book completely. However, I remember reading a book on the stories of the Prophets (Apologies, I forget by whom it was). In this, the author mentioned three or four hadith in relation to Hadhrat Sulaiman (AS) and clearly said along the lines of 'however scholars think or say this is weak'. My first reaction to that was,'why on earth quote something that is weak? it shouldnt be mentioned at all!'. But, after a while, it occured to me that If he hadnt mentioned those hadith, in relation to that topic, and had only mentioned the authentic ones with no mention of which ones were weak, and I were to ever come across those false hadith in any manner, it would lead me to confusion. Since he DID mention all those hadith, in relation to the topic, if ever Iam to come across those weak hadith or if ever i hear someone quote them as authentic, Im in a better position to to know better for myself, and God willing let that person know the same.

If a scholar mentions all the hadith in relation to a topic, and he clearly specifies which ones are weak and unauthentic, how can he possibly be using it to prove what ever you say he's trying to prove? Allah (SWT) knows the state of hearts. We are in no place to judge. What matters is what I do about it! If an author mentions a weak hadith and Says it is weak, that is for me to know and remember and let all those around me Know about its weakness! The hadith about knowledge and china is not authentic as brother Ansar mentioned but its taught in Schools!! I was taught it from grade 5 onwards!

Mentioning which hadiths are out there and which are considered false or weak is a far better way of ensuring that, God willing, their usage will decrease than by not mentioning them at all.

And people even distort our Quran to get their own meanings out of it. We cant possibly abandon that can we? ofcoarse not!
Yes scholars are only Human. But is it Just of me to classify ahadith unauthentic because other Humans misunderstand and misuse them?

May Allah guide us all. Aameen.
AllahuAlim!

Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullah

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

As-salamu'alaikum,

Please read this:


Narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah that the Prophet said:

"ALL WOMEN ARE EVIL AND SHOULD BE BURIED ALIVE."














Note: This Hadith is 'Fabricated' -

- as it has just been made-up by me to exemplify how weak / false Hadith can in-fact be used to 'make a point'.

 

[seek.learn]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

Assalaam o alaikum,

Aye, and I pay this no heed since I know it to be false. Thereby, if a scholar is saying a hadith is fabricated, I could care less what he's trying to prove cause if it isnt true, it isnt true and all thts left to me is to share what I've learnt and hope to learn more.
If a scholar is saying a hadith is fabricated or weak, and someone clearly reads that and still chooses to spread it and use/misuse it for whatever reason, then it isnt the scholar, but the person using it whose wrong.

AllahuAlim.
May Allah guide us. Aameen.

Alaikum salaam wa rahmatullah

 

[ameen]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

salam,

It is in-fact hypocritical to enforce a point using weak hadith and then expect others to not spread them around.

If a scholar uses such weak hadith to strengthen his argument (e.g. persuading and frightening the women into being submissive to their husbands - see earlier part of this thread), then he is Not doing anyone favours but himself - by using such hadith to serve his own interests.

 

[seek.learn]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

Assalamoalaikum wa rahmatullah

Agreed, but that is if indeed he is trying to force his point. Depends on what he has in mind. Again, truth be told, I cant say anything for sure here, cause i havent read this book in particular.
But Allah(SWT) knows best what this author has in mind. If he is going to use a false hadith, Knowing that it is false, to live his life, then yes it is wrong. But Allah(SWT) knows the states of our hearts. And to Him we shall be called into account.
It is not my place to judge him. His matter is with Allah. I will be questioned about what I did. Use his justification and live my life falsely as well or make the better choice?

May Allah guide us. Aameen.

AllahuAlim!

Alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullah

 

[AceOfHearts]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

Islam-truth,

Hope you are well my brother/sister,

Let us take the "hadith" Ameen has just made up as an extreme case example.
Would one endorse a scholar to use a hadith like that, say in one of his books? Ofcourse not. You would not endorse it as you've already said in your post. Even if the auther says "this hadith is considered weak by the scholars", you would still not agree it being there, you would rather him not put in there in the first place. LIKEWISE, scholars who use other un-authentic and weak nerrations in their books CANNOT justify it just by mentioning "it is weak". I hope you see my point.

I am sure you will agree, such scholars who do this do more harm to the general reader and the overall society than they do good [by letting them know it is weak] because it only serves to propagate these hadiths into the society, not the other way round as you and brother Ansar-Al-Adl have suggested.

Lastly, I agree with your point that disagreeing or rejecting some hadiths should not mean one has to reject everything in hadiths as false.

Peace.

PS. I know of very obscene hadiths [or to me they are] out there collected approx. 500 years After Hijra (AH). For interests sake, would one regard it as authentic and 'words of the prophet' if that hadith came with a complete chain in which all the nerrators within the chain are known to be sound?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Ahadith and Misogyny

br. seek.learn,

And, about the author having quoted false or week hadith. First and foremost, please, I only present my opinion since I havent read this book completely. However, I remember reading a book on the stories of the Prophets (Apologies, I forget by whom it was). In this, the author mentioned three or four hadith in relation to Hadhrat Sulaiman (AS) and clearly said along the lines of 'however scholars think or say this is weak'. My first reaction to that was,'why on earth quote something that is weak? it shouldnt be mentioned at all!'. But, after a while, it occured to me that If he hadnt mentioned those hadith, in relation to that topic, and had only mentioned the authentic ones with no mention of which ones were weak, and I were to ever come across those false hadith in any manner, it would lead me to confusion. Since he DID mention all those hadith, in relation to the topic, if ever Iam to come across those weak hadith or if ever i hear someone quote them as authentic, Im in a better position to to know better for myself, and God willing let that person know the same.

If a scholar mentions all the hadith in relation to a topic, and he clearly specifies which ones are weak and unauthentic, how can he possibly be using it to prove what ever you say he's trying to prove? Allah (SWT) knows the state of hearts. We are in no place to judge. What matters is what I do about it! If an author mentions a weak hadith and Says it is weak, that is for me to know and remember and let all those around me Know about its weakness! The hadith about knowledge and china is not authentic as brother Ansar mentioned but its taught in Schools!! I was taught it from grade 5 onwards!

Mentioning which hadiths are out there and which are considered false or weak is a far better way of ensuring that, God willing, their usage will decrease than by not mentioning them at all.

JazakumAllahu khayran! You explained very clearly the point I was trying to convey.

It should also be noted that traditionally, the scholars used to quote all the common narrations in their books and discuss them, commenting on their strength or weakness. They did not bring obscure sayings that no one had likely heard of.