Hamas leader offers truce if Israel withdraws from 1967 lands

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by that rational woulden't Gaza be a military target?

I understand why the city had military signifigance, however military signifigance dosen't give a country a blank check to take it out, irrespective of civilian presence.

why is it that in todays world the US and other world powers must have respect for civilian presence? Did the attackers of 9/11 have respect for such? Do any of the suicide bombers in the mid east today practice the same? Has any war in history, prior to the liberal media, had to try to distinguish between friend and foe in a war zone? I dont think so... I am not condoning innocent civilian death, it is a horrible, irreparable thing that happens, but war is hell and thus the loss of civilian life is guaranteed. If a country goes to war, if its citizens wish to not die, they should either leave or stay far far out of harms way.

As far as Hiroshima and Nagasaki went, they were both legitimate targets and because of the death that was spread in those areas, millions of others have survived. The Japanese were an enemy that would rather die than lose, so death is what they got, and if they hadnt conceded to the loss many more would have died and so on, until surrender was the only option.
 
When Iran threatens Israel, it's told it will be "obliterated" so there is a double standard here.

I think you will find that was only said by Hilary Clinton not "the UN and other world powers"! Not quite the same thing (even in her own mind) .. and even then she was talking specifically about the consequences of an Iranian nuclear attack on Israel.

Even if they did, there is a question of dignity.

'Dignity' in this context just means 'pride'. Of the sort that gets a great many people killed needlessly.
 
why is it that in todays world the US and other world powers must have respect for civilian presence? .

Because we have moved on in our civilisation since WW2.
Warfare will always be bloody and horrific but take a look at some you-tube video's of American Marines under fire. They will sit there with bullets spraying off the concrete around them, because they can't positively with certainty identify where the Gunfire is coming from.

Once they do, then the target gets hammered, but only if its clear of any visible civilians.

This is the Yanks, and theyre much more trigger happy than most other western forces I served with. Simply put, If we wanted war to be waged with totality like WW2, then Baghdad would have been turned to literal ashes on day one.
Just because your enemy is fighting with torture, suicide weapons and massacering civilians, like the Japanese in WW2 did, dosnt mean you have to stoop to their medieval disgusting methods.
 
Well, then I guess the Pentagon and the WTC were also legit targets. Someone needs to stop American and Western interventionist and imperialist foreign policies. I have always condemned 9/11 but now thanks to u guys, I think it was a legit target.
 
Yes, but the U.N. and other world powers don't intervene on behalf of Palestine, and when they condemn Israel for it's unlawful behavior, it's only a verbal statement. When Iran threatens Israel, it's told it will be "obliterated" so there is a double standard here. That's why I don't count on them to produce a solution. Even if they did, there is a question of dignity.

The Ninth Scribe
What action has the UN taken against Iran or Palestine for harsh rhetoric against Israel?
 
The type of discord humanity feels whenever holy law is disobeyed. People sometimes view divinity as some outside element, but it's really more involved than that. So you turn and tell your child: Don't stick your hand in the fire because it will get burned. The child does it any way because he doesn't know WHY fire will burn his hand.

Well, there is a reason why the most ancient of books didn't promote war as an annual sport. There are reasons why the religious scholars were appointed. We may not understand the reasons, but that changes nothing. So here we have it, fully unleashed like a lightning storm, and where on Earth is it supposed to actually end? It's like the scene from that movie, Men in Black, where "J" let's the flying disk loose.

The Ninth Scribe
Once agian I was never really good at riddles.
 
Well, then I guess the Pentagon and the WTC were also legit targets. Someone needs to stop American and Western interventionist and imperialist foreign policies. I have always condemned 9/11 but now thanks to u guys, I think it was a legit target.
Since when was Al Queda a government body? Sure they were legit targets but understand once you hit those targets you must be prepared what comes back onto you. You can't be crying about women with thongs and being too cold in Cuba.
 
Because we have moved on in our civilisation since WW2.
Warfare will always be bloody and horrific but take a look at some you-tube video's of American Marines under fire. They will sit there with bullets spraying off the concrete around them, because they can't positively with certainty identify where the Gunfire is coming from.

Once they do, then the target gets hammered, but only if its clear of any visible civilians.

This is the Yanks, and theyre much more trigger happy than most other western forces I served with. Simply put, If we wanted war to be waged with totality like WW2, then Baghdad would have been turned to literal ashes on day one.
Just because your enemy is fighting with torture, suicide weapons and massacering civilians, like the Japanese in WW2 did, dosnt mean you have to stoop to their medieval disgusting methods.

I agree with you to a point.. I certainly dont want any civilians to die, much less slaughtered and even worse my Muslim brothers and sisters... At the same time when a country is at war with another, I dont see any reason that any respect should be given to the opposition, since war is, by design, supposed to be the most horrific act possible to commit upon a countries enemy. A last resort used to pummel an enemy into a submissive state where the conflict is ultimately resolved in the winners favor.

My main point to making the post was to get people to think, is the US actually at war with Iraq? Is the US in Iraq to occupy and steal Iraqi territory? I would say no, I would say the US is a police force in Iraq and that is about it... Basically 150,000 man SWAT team trying to rid the country of the beasts that were allowed to infest it when the real war was fought and won in a matter of a month.

Dont get me wrong, when all is said and done I am sure the US will get a discount on oil, and probably get a few military bases set up as well. The alternative, however, is the Iranians taking Iraq, which in my opinion they are working very aggressively to do and they will likely nationalize the oil and fail horribly at redistributing the wealth just as they have done to their own people. They will also no doubt setup military installations and if anyone thinks for one second the Saudis or Egypt will let this go smoothly, I would disagree. But I suppose only time will tell, right? :?
 
Of course the US isnt at war with Iraq.
They are there at the behest of the Iraqi Government who are elected by the majority of the Iraqi people. Read my signiture :)

It's instructive to note that the US bought more oil from Saddam than they buy now from Iraq. Iraq is seventh on the list of US oil imports, well below venuzaula and dwarfed by Saudi and Canada. The "war for oil" TM, sounds fantastic, but it simply takes a tiny bit of research to blow that fallacy apart. Few people bother to find out.

Back to topic, I'd advise people to watch the Vidieolink i posted earlier in the thread. Hamas basically admit they are trying to buy time and there will be no peace till "victory".
 
Of course the US isnt at war with Iraq.

The U.S. isn't at war with Palestine either. Come to that, the United States hasn't actually fought a real war. It just sells arms and bets on the winner. Way to take a stand, lol. What a joke.
 
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Once agian I was never really good at riddles.

Well, you would have had to have watched the movie... but it was quite funny, despite the damage. All I'm saying is one event caused a chain reaction. One war is becoming many different wars. It's not the first time this happened either. Probably won't be the last. Bottom line is this. Where's the solution? I'd like to see this resolved before every country in the world has to get dragged into the Israel-Palestine one.

The Ninth Scribe
 
So you acknowledge your incredibly exaggerated statment and that you were wrong to make it.

Thanks.

Well, her brazen statement represents the mind-set of a great number of people... who, of course, wouldn't dare to actually come right out and say it the way she did. Even she had to do damage control afterward. But naturally, the powers that be are all concerned with Iran taking action against their beloved Israel. They are not very concerned however with Israel taking action against other nations. I'm not worried about this because it's all in the history books - I mean, it isn't like this is new news. I've watched Israel's walls go up and get blown down so many times over, it's almost amusing.

I'm not going to apologize for history. The only difference between 2500 years ago and today is that 2500 years ago, the Assyrians were hired as hit-men by the Jews to wipe out Israel and today it's the Americans who are hired by the Jews to wipe out the Palestinians. It's not the first time the Palestinians suffered either. When the Jews decided to stop payment on the Assyrians for their services, they convinced Palestine to follow suit... and look where that got them? Way to spread the sunshine, but here we all are. Right back where we started. Nothing ever changes here does it?

Same s--t, different day.

The Ninth Scribe
 
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Well, then I guess the Pentagon and the WTC were also legit targets. Someone needs to stop American and Western interventionist and imperialist foreign policies. I have always condemned 9/11 but now thanks to u guys, I think it was a legit target.

Either your knowledge of modern history stops in the early 20th century or your are being spoon-fed anti-Western pablum. Please cite a recent example of "Western imperialism". I can't think of one since perhaps the Suez Crisis or the civil war in Algeria.
 
Either your knowledge of modern history stops in the early 20th century or your are being spoon-fed anti-Western pablum. Please cite a recent example of "Western imperialism". I can't think of one since perhaps the Suez Crisis or the civil war in Algeria.

Anglo-Iranian Oil, Operation AJAX and America's propping up of the Shah, our operations in Chile, Cuba, Nicuragra, Indonesia, France's attempted reconquest of Indo-China, Britain maintaining control of Egypt, India, France's states in Africa, Western Support of the Apartide state in South Africa, Supporting Israel's landgrabs and control over Gaza, West Banks etc, Regan's attempt to maintain control of the Panama Cannel, America's control of Gitmo, etc?

Those are the most blatant I can think of.
 
Anglo-Iranian Oil, Operation AJAX and America's propping up of the Shah, our operations in Chile, Cuba, Nicuragra, Indonesia, France's attempted reconquest of Indo-China, Britain maintaining control of Egypt, India, France's states in Africa, Western Support of the Apartide state in South Africa, Supporting Israel's landgrabs and control over Gaza, West Banks etc, Regan's attempt to maintain control of the Panama Cannel, America's control of Gitmo, etc?

Those are the most blatant I can think of.

Excellent. I am pleased to see someone make the effort.

Let's take the examples you cite that I would agree are imperialistic in their tone.

French Indochina after WWII....yes, but Dien Bien Phu was in 1954, Suez was in '56

France's states in Africa...yes, that's why I mentioned Algeria as a cut off.

Britain maintaining control of Egypt...I would say Empire Interruptis..and definietly before Suez. That was the whole point of Suez

Britain maintaining control of Inida.....definetely the sunset of Imperialism,,,Indian independence was granted in 1950.

Guantanamo Bay?...that is a serious stretch. It is a vestige of former US imperialsim (Spanish American War), but we do have a valid lease by treaty and there are no Cubans under American control and it has no economic value. The whole point of Imperialism is for the imperialist power to be enriched by it's subserviant state.

Reagan trying to retain control of the Panama Canal?....again, that is stretch. The Panama Canal was another vestige of Imperialism but the US honored the treaty language and turned the thing over without a fight, a fight which we could have easily won. The handover was a done deal when Reagan took office. Simply grousing about it is not Imperialism :)

The rest are not imperialistic by any sensible definition. Most are the Cold War relics of attempts to thwart Soviet expansionism. You may disagree with them or feel that Third World people were pushed around (which is probably true), but it's still not Imperialism.

BTW..it just occurred to me that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 70's is perhaps an example as Russia is a partly European power. Of course, that doesn't count as they were the good guys, eh?:)
 
Excellent. I am pleased to see someone make the effort.

Let's take the examples you cite that I would agree are imperialistic in their tone.

French Indochina after WWII....yes, but Dien Bien Phu was in 1954, Suez was in '56

You asked about recent imperialism, if 50 years ago is quite recent, though yes, it was after Suez.

France's states in Africa...yes, that's why I mentioned Algeria as a cut off.

Algeria wasen't the only one I don't think.

Britain maintaining control of Egypt...I would say Empire Interruptis..and definietly before Suez. That was the whole point of Suez

Alright, howeveer it is in the lifetime of many, all this is ignoring that the major anti-colonial movements began in the middle east a quite a bit earlier, it simply really erupted, for various reasons, in the 20th century.

Britain maintaining control of Inida.....definetely the sunset of Imperialism,,,Indian independence was granted in 1950.

Sure

Guantanamo Bay?...that is a serious stretch. It is a vestige of former US imperialsim (Spanish American War), but we do have a valid lease by treaty and there are no Cubans under American control and it has no economic value

It was a rather forced lease to begin with, the current Cuban government has ordered us off quite a few times and has not cashed any of the checks we send for payment.

The whole point of Imperialism is for the imperialist power to be enriched by it's subserviant state.

that may be a genral, ideal goal, that dosen't mean that any act that does not meet that idea is not imperialism.

Reagan trying to retain control of the Panama Canal?....again, that is stretch.

I beleive William F Buckely put it well.

"Should or shoulden't the Panamese people be allowed to exercise sovreiginity over their own territory"


The Panama Canal was another vestige of Imperialism but the US honored the treaty language and turned the thing over without a fight, a fight which we could have easily won. The handover was a done deal when Reagan took office. Simply grousing about it is not Imperialism :)

of course, that was clearly the weakest example.

The rest are not imperialistic by any sensible definition.

If Anglo-Iranian Oil was not blatant imperialism the term has no substantive meaning.

Most are the Cold War relics of attempts to thwart Soviet expansionism. You may disagree with them or feel that Third World people were pushed around (which is probably true), but it's still not Imperialism.

Overthrowing a sovreign government and instilling a former Nazi sympathiser, and propping up the authoritarian Shah aghinst the will of the Iranian people isin't imperialism?

Perhapse you can find a way to skate around it, however I think in a colloquial sense, as the anti-colonialist movement in the ME would understand it anyway, it certianly is.

BTW..it just occurred to me that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 70's is perhaps an example as Russia is a partly European power.

As Dostoevsky said, Asians say Russians are Europeans, Europeans say they are asians.

If you want to count Russia/USSR as well then there is quite a bit more, Iran for instance.

According to you, however I beleive, Imperialism must have a distinctly economic goal of exploiting the substanance of the subjected people, in which case Afghanistan was not imperialism, again however, I feel it was in any common sense of the world.

Of course, that doesn't count as they were the good guys, eh?:)


The USSR?

Hardly
 
imperialism
:sl:
I love imperialism! :statisfie
RomanEmperorCartoon.jpg


J/k, of course...

Anyway, I think that Israel shouldn't take the deal unless they get rid of the ten year bit. I know from civ-related experiences that ten-year peace treaties proposed by the agresssor (who is the agressor is a bit blurred in this conflict) are usually just excuses to regroup without facing attack from the enemy.

And Hamas shouldn't take it either. Israel would just go back on their word and break the treaty anyway, so there is no point them trying to regroup.
:w:
 
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