Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

[جوري]

Why can't one be in both roles at the same time? The two are not necessarily inherently inconsistent with one another. So, why say that one cannot be both at the same time?

It lacks continuity!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

That is another rendering which we can call (swoon theory)

He was put on the cross but didn't die and escaped injured!!..

the weakness of such speculation is what I mentioned before

I'm familiar with the swoon theory. I was making no such reference, for I consider it to be a total mockery of the events which unfolded. I was just looking at the possibility of a different interpretation than the standard interpretation of those verses. You actually answer that when you said:

It does have to mean he was never put on the cross

the verse has 2 verbs:

(Katala) ,to kill

(Salaba) ,to put on a cross.

They neither (katalo) Jesus nor (salabo) Jesus.....

So, we are back to our two sets of scriptures being in clear disagreement over a major issue. The Bible says that Jesus died by being crucified on a cross. The Quran says that not only did Jesus not die by crucifixion, but that he was never even put on a cross. So, I don't know how nor why Greenville has reached the conclusion that he has? But if that is the only thing left to talk about here, I think I'll just watch the rest of this thread from the sidelines. I'm pretty sure we each know what we and the other believes. It would be nice if there were some middle ground on this point; I know we share a lot of beliefs in common on many other points, but it doesn't appear that there is any middle ground on some of the most important issues.

Nonetheless, I wish you well and peace with God.

 

[YusufNoor]

Why can't one be in both roles at the same time? The two are not necessarily inherently inconsistent with one another. So, why say that one cannot be both at the same time?

if one comes bearing the message of another, then one is subservient to the other. the subservient one cannot be equal to the other.

not equal = no trinity

 

[Grace Seeker]

if one comes bearing the message of another, then one is subservient to the other. the subservient one cannot be equal to the other.

not equal = no trinity

First, to be the bearer of a message does not mean that it is another's message. A person might choose to deliver their own message. Then one could be both the message bearer and the author of the message. No subservience in that. Also, I don't see the lack of continuity, but if others do each is entitled to his/her own opinion.


Second, while many would assert that the Trinity implies complete equal position and power among each of its memebers, that is not strictly necessary for the orthodox view. Indeed, among Greek Orthodox, I think you will find sort of a hierarchy in the Godhead with the Father in the preeminent positon, then the Son, and lastly the Holy Spirit. However, I am not well-schooled on Greek Orthodox theology, so I may be mistaken on that. But certainly, monarchism, allows for the monarchy of the Father with there still being a sharing of divinity among the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. This is basically the position of Tertullian who first coined the term Trinity. So, though Tertullian would not have said that the three persons were of equal authority, he did argue...

...though three, the Persons were severally manifestions of a single indivisible power, noting that on the analogy of the imperial government one and the same sovereignty could be exercised by coordinate agencies.

source: J.N.D. Kelley, Early Christian Doctrines, New York: Harper Press, 1958, p. 113.

Also, Tertullian maintained the distinction between Father, Son, and Spirit did not imply seperation or division; technically put, it was a matter of distinctio rather than separation. Moreover, Tertullian surmised Jesus' saying "I and the Father are one" means that Father and Son are of "one substance"; it is a matter of identity of substance rather than numerical unity. By extension, Son and Spirit are of the same substance with Father. Thus, we can speak of God's one "substance" and three distinct yet undivided "persons". (Tertullian, Against Praxeas 12, pp. 598-607.)

 

[جوري]

Also, I don't see the lack of continuity, but if others do each is entitled to his/her own opinion.

The fact that you have to give a sermon each time to explain something that is supposed to be so simple should echo in your mind all that is wrong with your formula.. It isn't really an opinion it is an illogical belief that you can't reconcile for thinking people...
Now..
God is either one!
or he is as you describe-- meek, feeble and ineffectual being, who nunciates himself/eats and poops/prays and cries/forsakes himself and dies, all for something as anticlimactic as to saving folks from his own wrath.
It is a useless act for a God to do!
I can't worship, a being I can't respect or expect that he should keep his promises to himself-- for why would he for the rest of humanity?

I think the choice is clear, and it isn't a matter of opinion-- it is a matter of what satisfies both the heart and mind!

all the best

 

[Imam]

we are back to our two sets of scriptures being in clear disagreement over a major issue. The Bible says that Jesus died by being crucified on a cross. The Quran says that not only did Jesus not die by crucifixion, but that he was never even put on a cross. So, I don't know how nor why Greenville has reached the conclusion that he has? .

Peace

Greenville has reached the conclusion as in his last post:

It is true according to the Quran that The Jews never killed Jesus ,the Romans did.

first:1 Thessalonians 2:15 The Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets

Second: The following verse would eliminate any doubt that the mission of Jesus terminated in peace....

[5:110] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I saved you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them.

It would be illogical to assume that If Jesus been executed by the Romans, Allah would remind him of his bless on him of saving him from the Jews!!!
or may be the torture and crucification by the Romans hurts less?


To sum up the point under discussion:

The following concepts mere weak traditions and wild speculations that absent from the Quranic text:

1-That Jesus been substituted on the cross by someone else.

2-That Jesus been crucified and been injured but escaped the cross(swoon theory).

3- That the claim that Jesus died willingly won't damage the claim (neither the Jews nor the Roman crucified him) as he did it with willingly then none crucified him but it is he who did it.

4- That the Quran deny Jewish crucification but affirms Roman one.

There are 2 other points not really related to the matter under discussion(whether Jesus been crucified or not) :

1- It is already established that Jesus never been crucified according to the Quran ,but did he die a natural death or lifted to heaven alive?
Is that concept supported by clear verses in the Quran or mere traditions?

2- Is there a clear Quranic support for a supposed second coming of Jesus? or mere traditions,If traditions how strong such traditions?

discussing those two points (that not related to the issue of crucification )will be later InshaAllah.....

-------------------------------------------

Now I think we arrived at the key word of understanding the real obstacle to make a harmony between the NT and the Quran regarding The death of Jesus....


In order to find out the point lets first assume that Jesus is included,according to the Quran in the list of the slain prophets;
Holy Quran 3:181 We shall certainly record their word and (their act) of slaying the prophets in defiance of right.

assuming the verse to be;

Holy Quran 4:157 That they killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.

will be there a harmony between the NT and the Quran? yes it will ,both agree that Jesus been killed , but hold on the biggest obstacle is waiting.........

(The significance of the death of Jesus)

The Quran Just as early christian sects sees no significance at all with the death of anyone regarding attaining heaven, and rejects entirely the concept of blood atonement ........
and that is the crux of the matter ,harmonize the crucification of Jesus in both the Bible and the Quran as much as you can till you reach the big obstacle (The significance of the death of Jesus)which no amount of attempts will ever solve......

And that is the approach I got after years of reflecting the issue..
I abandoned entirely the old approach (was Jesus crucified?) and recommend
(Has the death of Jesus any significance?)

The same way I abandoned the approach (Did Jesus say I'm God or worship me?)
and recommend the approach (Is the New Testament inerrant?)

and above all I even put the 2 previous questions as inferior to the biggest Question and the most crucial,clear ,effective ,that let me feel totally satisfied to believe the Bible to be not entirely inspired..... It is my favorite topic , the most importance of all issues in the arena of Biblical criticism it is (the issue of Bible prophecies especially the Messianic prophecies).........

It is more important than the Trinity
It is more important than the crucification.....


peace for all

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Why can't one be in both roles at the same time? The two are not necessarily inherently inconsistent with one another. So, why say that one cannot be both at the same time?

Because Jesus said he was a messenger OF God, not a messenger AND God. I'm just going by what he said.

"of" is different than "and."

 

[Grace Seeker]

Because Jesus said he was a messenger OF God, not a messenger AND God. I'm just going by what he said.

"of" is different than "and."

I keep hearing this line from Muslims that Jesus never claimed to be God. I've shown where he in fact did in the past, I'll not go into again here, but I'll gladly direct you to those posts if you either missed or forgot them. So, if you believe that Jesus spoke the truth from God, and if among those statements is that he was himself one with the Father. You sort of have to accept that he also was God. That or begin to admit that you don't take Jesus at his word, at least that which is recorded in the Gospels found in the NT. And I think that is really the issue. You don't accept the Gospel record. You only trust the Injil, a gospel that no one can read, but you claim to still know what it says because the Qur'an has told you so. And once again, as this thread so clearly illustrates, despite its title, there is very little harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I keep hearing this line from Muslims that Jesus never claimed to be God. I've shown where he in fact did in the past, I'll not go into again here, but I'll gladly direct you to those posts if you either missed or forgot them. So, if you believe that Jesus spoke the truth from God, and if among those statements is that he was himself one with the Father. You sort of have to accept that he also was God. That or begin to admit that you don't take Jesus at his word, at least that which is recorded in the Gospels found in the NT. And I think that is really the issue. You don't accept the Gospel record. You only trust the Injil, a gospel that no one can read, but you claim to still know what it says because the Qur'an has told you so. And once again, as this thread so clearly illustrates, despite its title, there is very little harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an.

I'm pretty sure you were thoroughly rebutted by the likes of Imam and the others. I'm no scholar but their explanations seemed more realistic.

 

[Walter]

Hi Imam:

Thank you for your reasonable post. You have addresses a few different topics. In an effort to keep the marble on the table, let us deal with them one at a time.

I see that you are using Thessalonians as evidence, where I was limiting my evidence to the Qur’an, the Old Testament, and the Gospels. Nevertheless, let us proceed.

Your principal evidence for asserting that Jesus was not crucified is 5:110. This appears to be conclusive evidence. However, for completeness, let us critically review it, for any claim of truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny.

The last part of 5:110 states:

“I did restrain the Children of Israel from thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”​

This passage does provide evidence that God did not allow the children of Israel to harm Jesus. However, the context of the verse appears to support the interpretation that the Jews tried to harm Jesus because of His earlier miracles and teachings, rather than later events surrounding His death.

The Bible provides several examples where the Jews tried to harm Jesus because of His sayings and miracles. Two examples follow.

Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country. But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath, in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”

So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff. Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way. (Luke 4:24–30)​

The second example follows.

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shrivelled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, warning them not to tell who he was. (Matthew 12:9-16)​

In these and other similar instances, God seemed to have restrained the children of Israel from harming Jesus.

So to summarise. Since the interpretation that Jesus was not crucified by the Jews (as the Qur’an explicitly states), but by the Romans (as the Bible explicitly states) does not damage the integrity of 5:110 or 19:33, then the marble is still on the table.

Let us now discuss the deity of Jesus.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[جوري]

Jews after Jesus (check)
God kept Jews at bay as per your bible (check)
what doesn't follow is why God would not restrain them the day after rigorous prayers by himself in the Garden of Gethsemane..

--for Allah never fails in His promise." (3:9)

"Our Lord! Grant us what Thou didst promise unto us through Thy Messengers, and save us from shame on the Day of Judgment; for Thou never breakest Thy promise."(3:194)




Allah's promise is the truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah's? (4:122)

All that hath been promised unto you will come to pass: nor can ye frustrate it (in the least bit).(6:134)


and who is more faithful to his Covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme (9:111)

Just a few verses, where Allah swt affirms that his promise is true.. so Would he forsake his most precious (his son) or as you'll have us believe himself?

When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.(3:52)



Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.(3:55)






O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. 4:171







[FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1]

from [/SIZE][/FONT]

from the above verses you should deduce a few things
1- Sure Jesus was persecuted but as were all the messengers before him and to this day still
2- God doesn't break a promise least of which to a messenger he favors above the disbelievers
3- the verse you allude to about Jesus' death [FONT=VERDANA,ARIAL, HELVETICA][SIZE=-1][Pickthal 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive![/SIZE][/FONT]
denotes that Jesus is a man not a God, that it is his lot to die (has to do more with his second coming and the reason behind it) amongst other things that, death is decreed upon men, not upon God!


all the best

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

God gave us the greatest commandments to love all our neighbours as we love ourselves. God also said that we should love and pray for our enemies.

In the spirit of praying for justice and salvation for all people.

Eric

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm pretty sure you were thoroughly rebutted by the likes of Imam and the others. I'm no scholar but their explanations seemed more realistic.

No. Actually they haven't responded to the most recent time I dealt with this, here in. In the past, their response is that even though you have verses where the Jews testify to Jesus having made these claims (for instance John 10:33), that since it is the Jews who are quoted and not Jesus that either (1) the Jews are mistaken or (2) you can't trust the Gospels to begin with, so it doesn't matter what is in them. That's not rebuttal, that is simply dismissal. And that's what I keep hearing. I accept that. You believe the Qur'an, not the Bible. So, you dismiss the Bible. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is to then argue that the Bible supports the beliefs of Islam when it doesn't.

 

[BlackMamba]

I find it kind of sad that Christians have to INFER from the bible about their main belief. They have to say "well jesus kind of implies from this passage that he might be worthy of worship because he doesnt stop the people from saying it". When I read that stuff I'm stunned, I mean is that all you guys got in that humongous bible about the core beliefs of your religion. You gotta make guesses about who to pray to. I mean where in the bible does it even talk about your holy trinity....no where. What is this? The bible is such a long book but it still doesnt cannot find enough space to outline the core beliefs of a christian. I find that very strange.

Look at how clear the Quran is. Read chapter 112 surah Ikhlas. Read the ayahs in surah Nisaa and Ma'idah dismissing trinity/shirk. The Quran is more clear about your trinity than the bible itself, which never even mentions it.

 

[Imam]

In the past, their response is that even though you have verses where the Jews testify to Jesus having made these claims (for instance John 10:33), that since it is the Jews who are quoted and not Jesus that either (1) the Jews are mistaken or (2) you can't trust the Gospels to begin with

Peace,

You missed a third option (3) The New Testament contains both truth and falsehoods therein.

in other words If you ask the question Is Jesus God?
you gonna have 2 answers

Yes he is

(assuming the Trinitarian understanding of the text to be valid,and all other interpretation as here http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html to be invalid)

John 1,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


John 10:30"I and my father are one."

John 14:8-9"He that hath seen me hath seen the father."

,John 14:6
"I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me."

John 8:58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
The Jews answered him, "We are not going to stone you for a good work but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, are making yourself God!"


etc......

No, he isn't.


Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?,

John 5:30 And "I can of mine own self do nothing.


John 10:35 Jesus replied to them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'?If he called those to whom the word of God came 'gods' (and the Scripture cannot be disregarded),how can you say to the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?


etc..........


So what?which of the two contradictory answers to be valid?Either Jesus is God or he isn't ,there is no in between...

well, the Judge is waiting which tells us which answer is valid , it is the inerrant,miraculous word of God ,It endorses the answer No.2 and reject the other contradictory one..

Qur'an 4:171: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than an apostle of Allah.

Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They indeed misbelieve who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.”

Sorry Greenville to interrupt the discussion on the thread title ,my next post for you later InshAllah

peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

Imam, your response is an option. Another is to see these sets of statements as both true and hold them in the tension the arises from them. It is out of that tension that the major Christological doctrines developed.

 

[alcurad]

but grace; developed = wasn't there before, rather I'd say it was a regression.
no offense but I can't understand how returning to the multiple godhead system is any development-given monotheism/Jewish concept of God-.

the thread is about harmony between the qur'an and bible, but is the bible harmonious in the first place? take both the OT and NT and we have strikingly different versions of God, let alone the rest.

 

[Follower]

The Old Testament shows why man needs the New Testament. The Old Testament is history of our relationship with GOD. Prophecy about the coming of Jesus.

Of course it appears that there is a disconnect between the Old Testament and the GOOD NEWS of the New Testament!!

Where does it say that Jesus was or never was put on a cross in the Quran? Just because it doesn't say it doesn't mean it didn't exist befroe Uthamn burned the various copies or the separate copies of the companions wrtiings were lost. or was the verse lost in a battle when the Quran was memorized and not compiled into a book?

“You can't be the messenger of God and God at the same time”

Says who? All of humanity has limited minds. We can not begin to understand the fullness of who GOD is. I believe that Islam trys to define of who GOD is. They put GOD in a neat little package that we can understand, but that is too small of a package.

Why do we need to understand all that GOD is?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

The Old Testament shows why man needs the New Testament. The Old Testament is history of our relationship with GOD. Prophecy about the coming of Jesus.

Of course it appears that there is a disconnect between the Old Testament and the GOOD NEWS of the New Testament!!

Where does it say that Jesus was or never was put on a cross in the Quran? Just because it doesn't say it doesn't mean it didn't exist befroe Uthamn burned the various copies or the separate copies of the companions wrtiings were lost. or was the verse lost in a battle when the Quran was memorized and not compiled into a book?

“You can't be the messenger of God and God at the same time”

Says who? All of humanity has limited minds. We can not begin to understand the fullness of who GOD is. I believe that Islam trys to define of who GOD is. They put GOD in a neat little package that we can understand, but that is too small of a package.

Why do we need to understand all that GOD is?

You don't make sense. It's like you run out of things to say and you even go beyond common logic!

Follower, time after time you prove that you have never read the Qur'an. Why oh why talk about something which you have not slightest clue of?

Allah says in al-Qur'an:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

There is not one of the People of the Scriptur but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them. [Surah An-Nisa 4:157-159]

Oh and also, Uthman never burned pages of the Qur'an...that's the misguided view of the Shia! Get your facts straight. It's unimaginable to think that a man who put his life on the line for Muhammad would change the religion once Muhammad passes away.

 

[GreyKode]

@Follower
Christians are the ones who keep "defining" GOD as they like (astaghfarullah).
God is Love.(Not really so in the OT)
God died for your sins.
God has yellow hair and white skin.