Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

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nebula said:
Surah Al-Ahzab-
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. (Verse 40)
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Hi Nebula:

Thank you for that verse. Let us examine it.

The relevant portion to our discussion is that Mohammed is "the Seal of the Prophets". This word "seal" is also translated "last".

What does this mean?

Islamic religious tradition teaches that he is the "Last" of God's prophets to mankind. This appears to contradict the Biblical teaching that more prophets will come, even after Mohammed. Therefore, can this verse be interpreted in a way that is in harmony with the Bible and the rest of the Qur'an? Let us see.

There are at least three possible interpretations to the word "Last of the prophets".
1. The last prophet that God will ever send to mankind.

2. The last prophet that God will send to mankind for a long while.

3. The last prophet that God has sent so far.

The first option does not appear to fit the character of God as described in the Bible and the Qur'an, who is forgiving and merciful. I am sure that we will debate that no-end, so let us move on to the second option for now.

The second option is consistent with the Bible, where there was a period of approximately 400 years before the birth of Jesus when no prophet was sent.

The third option is likely. However, to verify the likely actual interpretation, we would need to examine similar verses, since absolute conclusions should not be drawn from one verse - there should be corroborating evidence.

Can you share an additional verse so that we can come to a conclusion?

Regards,
Grenville
 
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Grenville said:
OK AKK:

Let me address your points 2 and 3 for now.

2) The Bible teaches that many more Prophets will come after Jesus, but that Jesus is the only Messiah. Islamic religious tradition teaches that Mohammed is the final prophet. Can you provide Qur'anic evidence for this claim?

3) Please provide support from the Qur'an for the Islamic religious tradition that "Only Muhammad pbuh will be able to ask Allah and intercede for Muslims and believers on Judgment Day."?

Regards,
Grenville
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2. There are many sources but here is one of the most well known from Prophet Muhammad's last sermon.

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O ALLAH, that I have conveyed your message to your people”.

3. The Holy Prophet the Intercessor of the Sinners said, “Pulpits of gold will be arranged for the Prophets and they will sit on them, and my pulpit will remain empty as I will not sit on it – but I shall stand humbly before my Lord fearing that I may be sent into Paradise while my Ummah remains behind me. I shall then pray, “O my Lord! My Ummah! My Ummah!” Allah the Supreme will proclaim, “O Mohammed! What is your wish regardingwhat I should do with your Ummah?” I shall submit, “O my Lord! Settle their accountsquickly!” So I will continue to intercede until I get letters to get released those who hadalready been sent to hell – to the extent that Maalik, the custodian of hell, will exclaim,“O Mohammed! You have not left even a bit of the Lord’s wrath among your Ummah!” 4

Hakim with sound chains and Tibrani & Baihaqi from Hazrat Abdullah ibn Abbas




Just what I found after a few minutes. There is more.
 
Grenville said:
Hi Nebula:

Thank you for that verse. Let us examine it.

The relevant portion to our discussion is that Mohammed is "the Seal of the Prophets". This word "seal" is also translated "last".

What does this mean?

Islamic religious tradition teaches that he is the "Last" of God's prophets to mankind. This appears to contradict the Biblical teaching that more prophets will come, even after Mohammed. Therefore, can this verse be interpreted in a way that is in harmony with the Bible and the rest of the Qur'an? Let us see.

There are at least three possible interpretations to the word "Last of the prophets".
1. The last prophet that God will ever send to mankind.

2. The last prophet that God will send to mankind for a long while.

3. The last prophet that God has sent so far.

The first option does not appear to fit the character of God as described in the Bible and the Qur'an, who is forgiving and merciful. I am sure that we will debate that no-end, so let us move on to the second option for now.

The second option is consistent with the Bible, where there was a period of approximately 400 years before the birth of Jesus when no prophet was sent.

The third option is likely. However, to verify the likely actual interpretation, we would need to examine similar verses, since absolute conclusions should not be drawn from one verse - there should be corroborating evidence.

Can you share an additional verse so that we can come to a conclusion?

Regards,
Grenville
Click to expand...

Grenville, your analysis of last is flawed because you are stretching the english interpretation.

The arabic word used there means "final", specifically in the way that there will be nothing after him. Saying "final for a while, or so far" doesn't fit at all with the actual arab word used and is a large stretch even in the English interpretation.
 
Hugo said:
On your point 3 I have never heard that before and Al-Baqara 2:48 says "And guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped.

Can you explain therefore a little more?
Click to expand...

Allah has specifically made an exception for Muhammad pbuh as shown in authentic hadiths. Moreover, all the best qualities of every Prophet from all the nations were given to him. Fore example, Moses pbuh was a great leader, but he had a stuttering problem. Muhammad pbuh was a great leader without stuttering.
 
Grenville said:
Hi Nebula:

Thank you for that verse. Let us examine it.

The relevant portion to our discussion is that Mohammed is "the Seal of the Prophets". This word "seal" is also translated "last".

What does this mean?

Islamic religious tradition teaches that he is the "Last" of God's prophets to mankind. This appears to contradict the Biblical teaching that more prophets will come, even after Mohammed. Therefore, can this verse be interpreted in a way that is in harmony with the Bible and the rest of the Qur'an? Let us see.

There are at least three possible interpretations to the word "Last of the prophets".
1. The last prophet that God will ever send to mankind.

2. The last prophet that God will send to mankind for a long while.

3. The last prophet that God has sent so far.

The first option does not appear to fit the character of God as described in the Bible and the Qur'an, who is forgiving and merciful. I am sure that we will debate that no-end, so let us move on to the second option for now.

The second option is consistent with the Bible, where there was a period of approximately 400 years before the birth of Jesus when no prophet was sent.

The third option is likely. However, to verify the likely actual interpretation, we would need to examine similar verses, since absolute conclusions should not be drawn from one verse - there should be corroborating evidence.

Can you share an additional verse so that we can come to a conclusion?

Regards,
Grenville
Click to expand...
Hello Grenville,

One would think that last would mean just that, no ? If you want to do any examination then it will have to be in the language of the text otherwise you are only examing the interpretation/translation of the translator. I hope we can agree that no man can convey the infinate meanings of the word of God. Anyway, the arabic root is KhaTaMaa which means to seal or to reach the end of something. The prophet (saaws) is kaataamun al nabiyeen (the seal/end of prophets).
Each prophet has an era and this is the era of prophet Mohamed (saaws).
And BTW, the messengerhood in this context has nothing to do with forgiving.

.
.
 
It says clearly in surah al ahzab that Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وسلم) is the last prophet. Why is this even a discussion. And in surah Al-Anbiyaa Allah says
And We have sent you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). (21:107)
Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was sent for all that exists, all of mankind. So the Quran is for all eternity, not just one era or one group of people.
 
O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.
Click to expand...

salaam

This nails it - this is also one of the most famous speechs in Islam.

peace
 
Dear AKK:

The title of this thread is ‘Harmony between the Bible and the Qur’an’. We can both bring a host of extra-Biblical and Qur’anic texts that we already know are guaranteed to conflict. I have asked for supporting evidence from the Qur’an. You provided evidence not attributed to the infallible God. If we are trying to conclude this issue with some measure of certainty, then, at least in this thread, let us agree to limit our evidence to what has been revealed in our principal texts, namely, the Bible and the Qur’an.

AntiKarateKid said:
Grenville, your analysis of last is flawed because you are stretching the english interpretation.

The arabic word used there means "final", specifically in the way that there will be nothing after him. Saying "final for a while, or so far" doesn't fit at all with the actual arab word used and is a large stretch even in the English interpretation.
Click to expand...

OK AKK, I gave three possible interpretations. You appear to agree with the first one. However, despite our divergent opinions, the word does lend itself to more than one interpretation.

You believe that the interpretation should be “final for all time”, while “final for the next 400 years” is the Biblical example with the prophet Malachi, and “final one remaining alive” is the Biblical example as in the case of prophet Elijah. In order to conclusively determine the likely interpretation of the word “final” or “last”, we need to examine some relevant evidence from the Qur'an. Do you have any to share?

Regards,
Grenville
 
Al Sayf said:
One would think that last would mean just that, no ? If you want to do any examination then it will have to be in the language of the text otherwise you are only examing the interpretation/translation of the translator. I hope we can agree that no man can convey the infinate meanings of the word of God. Anyway, the arabic root is KhaTaMaa which means to seal or to reach the end of something. The prophet (saaws) is kaataamun al nabiyeen (the seal/end of prophets).
Click to expand...
Dear Al Sayf:

We are in agreement on the process. Let us agree that the word is translated “seal”, or “to reach the end” as you have noted. As I tried to explain to AKK, this still lends itself to more than one interpretation without damaging the integrity of the verse or its context.

1. To seal for all time and never to be reopened, ever.

2. To seal for a time, and to be opened sometime later.

A conclusive statement can be made on this issue with some corroborating evidence, which supports an interpretation of a permanent or a temporary seal. Do you have any such evidence?

Regards,
Grenville
 
Okay your logical is obviously flawed and you are trying to make yourself believe something that is not true. I mean look at tafsir ibn kathir http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=33&tid=41810 it is clear from that ayah he is the last prophet.
Look at this, http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/M_fop/fop3.htm (and by the way Khatam-al-Nabiyyin is the arabic phrase used in the Quran to mean last of the prophets.) But read those links that I put, inshallah they will convince you of this clear fact.

but okay if you still are convincing yourself of false things then lets look at another verse.
And We have sent you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). (21:107)
Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was sent for all that exists, all of mankind. Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was sent for not just the arabs of that time but for eternity, he was the last prophet.

And just so you know, there are no contradictions between the ahadith and the Quran. So both sources should be accepted as valid proof.
 
salaam

Yeah the meaning of the verse is very clear - with the proofs of Prophet muhammad (pbuh) life - he was the final messenger - the last and seal of the prophets.
 
Shakoor15 said:
Okay your logical is obviously flawed and you are trying to make yourself believe something that is not true. I mean look at tafsir ibn kathir ...
but okay if you still are convincing yourself of false things then lets look at another verse.
And We have sent you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). (21:107)
Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was sent for all that exists, all of mankind. Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم was sent for not just the arabs of that time but for eternity, he was the last prophet.

And just so you know, there are no contradictions between the ahadith and the Quran. So both sources should be accepted as valid proof.
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Dear Shakoor:

You have provided evidence to support the position that Mohammed’s message is relevant to all mankind. No one has disputed this. The message of Moses and Jesus is also relevant to all of mankind.

What I have asked you to provide was evidence from the Qur’an that would allow us to conclude, with some measure of certainty, the Islamic religious teaching that Mohammed was the last prophet that God would ever send to mankind.

This is important because Brothers Kept Apart found that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an, without compromising any teaching, or damaging the integrity of any verse in the Bible and the Qur’an. If the Bible teaches that God will send additional prophets after Mohammed, and the Qur’an teaches that God will not send anymore prophets to mankind after Mohammed, then the book’s incredible claim is false.

I await the additional evidence from the Qur’an.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Zafran said:
salaam

Yeah the meaning of the verse is very clear - with the proofs of Prophet muhammad (pbuh) life - he was the final messenger - the last and seal of the prophets.
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Dear Zafran:

Making conclusive statements before examining the relevant evidence is not the proper way. It is this behaviour that has kept us apart for over 1,300 years.

Regards,
Grenville
 
No think about it, if the bible was for all time then why would they need mOre prophets? The Quran states it is for all time, therfore no need of other prophets. Show me where the bible says it is for eternity.
 
Shakoor15 said:
No think about it, if the bible was for all time then why would they need mOre prophets? The Quran states it is for all time, therfore no need of other prophets. Show me where the bible says it is for eternity.
Click to expand...

Dear Shakoor:

Not for eternity, but until the end of the age. Here are a few examples.

1. God appointed prophets in the Church. The context supports the assumption that prophets are required for every generation of the Church.

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:28)​
2. This assumption is verified in the following passage.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; (Ephesians 4:11-13)​

3. Near the end of the age, God will send two prophets who are eventually killed.

And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 11:10)​

4. Also, near the end of the age, God’s angel will declare that the final generation had killed God’s prophets.

Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.” (Revelation 16:4-6)​
So you see, the Bible teaches that prophets will not only be sent to mankind after Mohammed, but that some are presently on the earth.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Well thanks for proving my point. The Quran does not support the notion that more prophets will come after Muhammad. Look at 21:107 and 33:40. There is something called confirmation bias it's when people ignore things that go against their beliefs and take things that support their beleifs. You keep giving your own interpretations of a verse that goes against the consensus of the great scholars of Islam for the past 1400 years. But hey whatever, most people reading this notice that in this aspect there appears to be no harmony.
And do you personally believe Muhammad (saw) was a prophet of Allah. And you don't believe that Allah is one of three, right?
 
Shakoor15 said:
The Quran does not support the notion that more prophets will come after Muhammad. Look at 21:107 and 33:40.
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Dear Shakoor:

You have simply repeated that same verse (33:40) which lends itself to more than one interpretation. To conclusively state whether the ‘seal’ was permanent or temporary, some corroborating evidence is required. The 21:107 does not corroborate any side of the issue.

Shakoor, for 1,700 years, Christian religious tradition has taught that Jesus is God, even though the Biblical evidence supporting this view is weak. Similarly, for over 1,000 years, Islamic religious tradition has taught that Mohammed is the last prophet that God would ever send to mankind, even though this view cannot be corroborated with evidence from the Qur’an.

Where there is insufficient evidence to conclusively make a determination on a religious teaching, then that teaching should remain in the realm of religious tradition, and there should be no obligation for persons to believe it; further, there should be no harmful consequences for those who choose not to.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Okay I'm gonna drop that topic now, just know that you're going against scholars of Arabic and Islam.
Your ideas seem to be that the followers of the bible (all Christians) have been misinterpreting the bible for the past 1700 years right? And that Muslims are pretty much following their religion correctly according to the Quran. Because like the Quran says clearly: No Trinity and God is one. So do you want Christians to change the way they practice and follow their religion Because it seems they're the ones following their
book incorrectly not us Muslims. I'm asking this general question to see where you're coming from.
 

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