Harmony between the Bible and the Qur'an

[AntiKarateKid]

Dear AKK:

Is Sahih Bukhari infallible?

Regards,
Grenville

It is true that the Quran is the only thing infallible but to neglect traditions which have been critiqued and analyzed for more than a thousand years and found to be authentic, is a stretch. Moreover what is narrated by the individuals is also narrated by many others too who actually met Prophet Muhammad pbuh. They are all in harmony.

 

[Walter]

It is true that the Quran is the only thing infallible but to neglect traditions which have been critiqued and analyzed for more than a thousand years and found to be authentic, is a stretch. Moreover what is narrated by the individuals is also narrated by many others too who actually met Prophet Muhammad pbuh. They are all in harmony.

Dear AKK:

Jesus was very angry with literate persons who mislead others. From the time of Mohammed until recently (the past 200 years or so), interpretations were set by a few persons, and those who did not accept their interpretations were persecuted. Rarely did the interpreters state the assumptions upon which their interpretations were based, and rarer still did they attempt to verify those assumptions.

Any person who subsequently tried to verify an assumption upon which an established interpretation was based was ridiculed and/or persecuted. If it was a religious interpretation that was being questioned, then the person could be tortured to death. Therefore, the opportunity for religious interpretations to be rigorously “critiqued and analysed” was rare.

I do not know how old you are AKK, but it is only recently that the masses have had the opportunity to be educated in mathematics and the scientific method of analysis in many countries of the world. It is only in the last 10 years or so that the storage of information on the Internet has given the masses access to knowledge previously hidden from them. Therefore, anyone properly trained in the past 50 years has the capability to rigorously examine claims of truth without fear of persecution.

Given that a rigorous examination of the Bible and the Qur’an has revealed harmony between the principal teachings of both books, then any additional information should also be rigorously examined rather than being blindly accepted.

AKK, a review of history has shown that many persons have dishonestly interpreted evidence, and have refused to sanction the verification of any assumptions upon which their interpretations were based. This was especially true with religious interpretations. Given this knowledge, and Jesus’ warning, and the eternal consequences of wrong interpretations, then why would ANYONE want to hinder anyone else from investigating claims of truth? If it is true, then it should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny.

“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” (Luke 11:52)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Your ideas seem to be that the followers of the bible (all Christians) have been misinterpreting the bible for the past 1700 years right? And that Muslims are pretty much following their religion correctly according to the Quran. ... I'm asking this general question to see where you're coming from.

Dear AKK:

Christians have not been misinterpreting the Bible for the past 1,700 years. Many, or the majority of believers actually interpreted it properly, but were persecuted by the religious leaders and forced to believe their (religious leaders’) unverified interpretations.

I have found that the Bible and the Qur’an are correct. Therefore, Christians should believe what is explicitly taught in the Bible and Muslims should believe what is explicitly taught in the Qur’an. If an Islamic teaching is not supported by what is explicitly taught in the Qur’an, then Muslims should be allowed to choose whether they wish to believe it or not without harmful consequences.

It would appear that the Islamic religious teaching, that Mohammed is the last prophet that God would ever send to mankind, cannot be verified using evidence from the Qur’an. It also contradicts the Biblical teaching that prophets would be sent after Mohammed. Therefore, this unverified teaching should not become an unnecessary barrier to divide Christians and Muslims.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Sorry AKK. The above should have been addressed to Shakoor15.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Rasema]

Hi Everyone:

I have examined the author’s claims and have found that even the most contentious verses in the Qur’an can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the Bible, the rest of the Qur’an, and the historical record, yet, for whatever reason, Islamic tradition interprets them in a contentious way. This is similar for Christian tradition’s interpretation of the Bible.

It seems that Christians and Muslims are brothers who have been unnecessarily kept apart for the past 1,300 years by their religious leaders.

Regards,
Grenville

All humans are brothers and sisters.

There is a big difference between us. Many things Christianity allows, Islam doesn't.

Muslims love Allah, therefore, we love the creation of Allah but what we hate is the kufr people do.

If you don't give Allah,spw, his rights the Messanger,sallallahu alaihi wa salam, his rights,then how to you expect us to be united?

I have attempted to read the Bible but I don't because it's not essential.

Also, when I read it I don't know what is the word of God and what of men. Muslims(such as me without much knowledge) you must be careful when you read the Bible because you might be accepting something false and reject something by Allah,spw.

We don't interpret the Qur'an or the Bible.

The Qur'an Muhammad,saws, has interpreted and scholars of generation and generation and not regular people. The Qur'an is a perfect book. If we couldn't trace the Qur'an back to the Propher,saws, we wouldn't know half of the stuff the Qur'an says.

We take word of God seriously so that is why we don't read the Bible because we don't want to accept something that is false and reject the word of God.

Salam

 

[Rasema]

Sure we believe in the same God but our belief in God is different,very different.

That God has a son is blasphomy!

 

[Walter]

Dear Rasema:

All humans are brothers and sisters.

May God bless you with much wisdom for this insight. You have declared a truth that has eluded, and continues to elude millions around the world.

There is a big difference between us. Many things Christianity allows, Islam doesn't.

Again, you have spoken correctly. May God bless you with much understanding. May you understand all information that you hear and read, and may you discern truth from error. The 30-year study, Brothers Kept Apart, found harmony between the main teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an, without compromising any teaching, or damaging the integrity of any verse in the Bible or the Qur’an. However, the book found that there was no harmony between Christian and Islamic religious traditions.

Muslims love Allah, therefore, we love the creation of Allah but what we hate is the kufr people do.

I’m sorry Rasema. Your sentence was incomplete. If you meant that you hate the ‘Kafir’ people and/or their deeds, then please be advised that people are at different levels of development. Some behave out of ignorance and/or immaturity. We must love, forgive, bear with, and help all people, especially those who are ignorant and immature. Jesus noted that it was the sick, and not those who are well, who need the Physician.
.

If you don't give Allah, spw, his rights the Messanger, sallallahu alaihi wa salam, his rights, then how to you expect us to be united?

Christians are not required to accept Mohammed as God’s prophet. However, Brothers Kept Apart did conclude that Mohammed was likely God’s prophet.

I have attempted to read the Bible but I don't because it's not essential.

Dear Rasema, the Qur’an cannot be properly understood without a knowledge of the Bible. The Qur’an actually teaches that Believers must believe the revelation sent to those before, which is contained in the Bible. I know that Islamic religious tradition teaches that the Bible has been corrupted. However, the Bibles that were around 200 years before Mohammed are available to us today, and a comparison of them with the Bibles that we have today shows that the assertions of corruption are false. You can read the Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD) which is linked at BrothersKeptApart.com

Also, when I read it I don't know what is the word of God and what of men. Muslims(such as me without much knowledge) you must be careful when you read the Bible because you might be accepting something false and reject something by Allah,spw.

As previously explained, there is harmony between the principal teachings of both books, therefore, both books are authentic.

We don't interpret the Qur'an or the Bible.

Please note that most verses in the Bible and the Qur’an must be interpreted. Our interpretations are based on assumptions. Most of our assumptions can be conclusively verified to be true and/or reasonable.

The Qur'an Muhammad, saws, has interpreted and scholars of generation and generation and not regular people. The Qur'an is a perfect book. If we couldn't trace the Qur'an back to the Propher,saws, we wouldn't know half of the stuff the Qur'an says.

The barriers dividing Christians and Muslims are based on religious leaders simply declaring their opinions to be true, with violent consequences for any who tried to verify the underlying assumptions. It is only recently that Believers have been allowed to examine these assumptions without fear of violence, at least in the Western world.

We take word of God seriously so that is why we don't read the Bible because we don't want to accept something that is false and reject the word of God.

As previously mentioned, there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an, without compromising any teaching in the Bible and the Qur’an.

Salam

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[Walter]

Sure we believe in the same God but our belief in God is different,very different.

That God has a son is blasphomy!

Actually, that God has a Son in the way specified in the Qur’an is blasphemy. Perhaps you should read this thread in its entirety in order to understand both sides of this issue.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[abu_musab461]

And (remember) when 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allâh unto you confirming the Taurât [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed[] . But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad SAW) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic." (61:6)

 

[abu_musab461]

And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allâh has begotten a son (children or offspring). Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him. (116) The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it : "Be!" - and it is. (2:117)

 

[abu_musab461]

And they say, "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

Yes, but whoever submits his face (himself) to Allâh (i.e. follows Allâh's Religion of Islâmic Monotheism) and he is a Muhsin then his reward is with his Lord (Allâh), on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. [See Tafsir Ibn Kathîr].

The Jews said that the Christians follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); and the Christians said that the Jews follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); though they both recite the Scripture. Like unto their word, said (the pagans) who know not. Allâh will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection about that wherein they have been differing. (Surah Baqarah)

 

[abu_musab461]

You may find similarities between the Quran and the Bible (gospel) because they are from the same source- we have been commanded to believe the original gospel of Jesus is from God, but not the corrupted version of today.

But there can never be harmony between the Quran and Bible because Monotheism and Polytheism can never be at harmony.

Peace be upon you and may Allah guide you to the Straight Path.,

 

[Rasema]

"I’m sorry Rasema. Your sentence was incomplete. If you meant that you hate the ‘Kafir’ people and/or their deeds, then please be advised that people are at different levels of development. Some behave out of ignorance and/or immaturity. We must love, forgive, bear with, and help all people, especially those who are ignorant and immature. Jesus noted that it was the sick, and not those who are well, who need the Physician.'

Yes, my sentence was incomplete so you should't have jumped to conclusions.

The way you made me sound is not what Islam teaches.

“Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.” [60:8]

There is a difference between hating the kaffir and hating their kufr. We should hate all forms of kufr, but that does not mean we should actually hate the kaffir. This is why I said:"Muslims love Allah, therefore, we love the creation of Allah"

The Qur'an says that we should argue in the best manner.

"Christians are not required to accept Mohammed as God’s prophet. However, Brothers Kept Apart did conclude that Mohammed was likely God’s prophet."

But we believe that the whole mankind must accept Muhammad ,saws, as a Prophet.They are required by God to do so.


"Dear Rasema, the Qur’an cannot be properly understood without a knowledge of the Bible." We had a messanger who interpreted the Qur'an and we have the records of that.
All we need to know is in the Qur'an and the Prophet's sayings. I don't need to know what God has not mentioned in the Qur'an. The purpose of it is that all the prophets(pbut) spoke the truth. That there is one God and that He is the only one who deserves to be worshiped. The purpose of the Qur'an is the oneness of Allah,spw.


"The Qur’an actually teaches that Believers must believe the revelation sent to those before, which is contained in the Bible."

It is very obvious that there are words of God in the Bible." Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the scripture. They have been invited to the book of Allah but still plenty of them turn away and they are averse" (Qura'an, forgot the chapter).

We must believe in the previous prophets and their books that doesn't mean that I have to read them, since they can not be traced back to the prophets, so I don't know what I'm reading the truth or falsehood.



I know that Islamic religious tradition teaches that the Bible has been corrupted. However, the Bibles that were around 200 years before Mohammed are available to us today, and a comparison of them with the Bibles that we have today shows that the assertions of corruption are false. You can read the Codex Sinaiticus (350 AD) which is linked at BrothersKeptApart.com

Who wrote those Bibles?
The Bible is not one book but a collection of the ancient books reveled to previous prophets.

For example, this is the time of the prophet Muhammad saws and I, who is without knowledge, write the Qur'an on a peace a paper so I remember it better. I even now write the Qur'an wrong. Someone of this period of time finds what I've written snd thinks it's the Qur'an when it isn't.

You can say that the Bible is not corrupt but you can't prove it. Just the fact that there is more than one shows that it is corrupted. How many Bibles are there?

"As previously explained, there is harmony between the principal teachings of both books, therefore, both books are authentic."

What do you mean they're both authentic?


"Please note that most verses in the Bible and the Qur’an must be interpreted. Our interpretations are based on assumptions. Most of our assumptions can be conclusively verified to be true and/or reasonable."

What I ment is not anybody interpretes the Qur'an. Muslim scholars have interpreted the Qur'an, which is in the commentary, based on methods. Methods such as hadeeths, etc..
A madhhab(school of thaught) is a way in which we interpret the Qur'an and other sources to decide on what the sunnah is.

Well, I have no daubt that most of the Bible is interpreted based on assumptions. However, the Qur'an Muhammad,saws, interpreted. Sunnis follow Muhammads interpretation of the Qur'an.


"Most of our assumptions can be conclusively verified to be true and/or reasonable."

Varified on what?

"The barriers dividing Christians and Muslims are based on religious leaders simply declaring their opinions to be true, with violent consequences for any who tried to verify the underlying assumptions. It is only recently that Believers have been allowed to examine these assumptions without fear of violence, at least in the Western world."

Religious leaders don't have nothing to do with the way Islam is presearved.







Quote:





.

 

[Rasema]

Actually, that God has a Son in the way specified in the Qur’an is blasphemy. Perhaps you should read this thread in its entirety in order to understand both sides of this issue.

Regards,
Grenville

The Qur'an says that the Christians believe that God is in three or from three.
Allah is simply saying that him having a son is ridiculous.

What is a son?

Jesus(pbuh) was a son of Mary without a father. The Qur'an makes this very clear. However,just because he doesn't have a father doesn't mean that God has to be his father.

 

[Walter]

Hi abu_musab461:

Let me respond to each of your concerns.

1. The Messenger

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. (Praised One)" But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (61:6)​

Islamic religious tradition interprets Ahmad as Mohammed. However, I can find no supporting information for this interpretation in the Qur’an. The Gospel teaches that the Messenger is the Holy Spirit.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14:26)​

2. God having a Son

The rejection of God having a son is consequential to the rejection of God having a wife, and a resultant child through sexual intercourse.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. (6:101 )​

This is not a Biblical concept.

3. Biblical Qur’anic Harmony

But there can never be harmony between the Quran and Bible because Monotheism and Polytheism can never be at harmony.

Please note that the Bible does not support polytheism. Let me reiterate that there is harmony between the principal teachings of the Bible and the Qur’an without compromising any teaching in either book. However, there is no harmony between Christian and Islamic religious traditions.

4. Corrupted Bible

You may find similarities between the Quran and the Bible (gospel) because they are from the same source- we have been commanded to believe the original gospel of Jesus is from God, but not the corrupted version of today.

I understand that Islamic religious tradition teaches this; however, it is in conflict with the Qur’an and the historical record.

In 4:136, Muslims are instructed to believe the Books sent before, and not to deny them. Verses 3:84 and 6:84-89 identifies these books, which are those contained in the Bible. 6:90 then gives the following instruction.

Those were they who received God's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations." (6:84–90)​

To avoid complying with this Qur’anic instruction, Islamic religious tradition decided that the Bible was corrupted beyond redemption. However, the copies of the Bible that were around during Mohammed’s time, which He instructed be believed and copied, are available to us today.

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. (4:136)​

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Rasema]

Hi abu_musab461:

To avoid complying with this Qur’anic instruction, Islamic religious tradition decided that the Bible was corrupted beyond redemption. However, the copies of the Bible that were around during Mohammed’s time, which He instructed be believed and copied, are available to us today.

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. (4:136)​

Regards,
Grenville

I asked, who wrote these Bibles?
And are you refearing to the Dead Sea Scrolls?

If you can not trace these books back to the prophets(pbut) your attempt is vain.
Chain of narrations is the only reliable way of knowing the realities of the past. It is used by historians in all fields, not just Islam.

What is the point of using these peaces of paper as proof when you can't trace them back to the prophets(pbut)?

The Christians didn't even presearve the Torah but the Jews did. Your Torah disagrees with that of the Jews in 1900 instances. This is just the difference between two Bibles.

After all, Muslims pray five times a day,work hard. Our second worship is to obey parents. We're too busy to be reading Bibles. It's all in the Qur'an.

You mentiones something about the Holy spirit. But you don't believe in the Trinity?

 

[Hugo]

If you can not trace these books back to the prophets(pbut) your attempt is vain.

Chain of narrations is the only reliable way of knowing the realities of the past. It is used by historians in all fields, not just Islam.

What is the point of using these peaces of paper as proof when you can't trace them back to the prophets(pbut)?

The Christians didn't even presearve the Torah but the Jews did. Your Torah disagrees with that of the Jews in 1900 instances. This is just the difference between two Bibles.

After all, Muslims pray five times a day,work hard. Our second worship is to obey parents. We're too busy to be reading Bibles. It's all in the Qur'an.

You mentiones something about the Holy spirit. But you don't believe in the Trinity?

Let us suppose one can trace a book back to its author - would that mean it is therefore a Holy book? I cannot be sure what your argument is here but one supposes your chain of narrators goes back to the Prophet so was he the author of the Qu'ran?

I have no idea what this is about Christians and the Jews as if they have completely separate manuscript collections of the Old Testament - do you really think that?

I doubt that ALL Muslims do this and many other people pray regularly and work hard but Christians and Jews revere their parents but only worship God

 

[Walter]

I asked, who wrote these Bibles? ... Chain of narrations is the only reliable way of knowing the realities of the past. It is used by historians in all fields, not just Islam. ...

What is the point of using these peaces of paper as proof when you can't trace them back to the prophets(pbut)?

After all, Muslims pray five times a day,work hard. Our second worship is to obey parents. We're too busy to be reading Bibles. It's all in the Qur'an.

You mentiones something about the Holy spirit. But you don't believe in the Trinity?

Dear Rasema:

We can engage in these types of questions, and neither of us will convince the other that our Book is not authentic. If conclusive incontrovertible proof is your standard, then both the Bible and the Qur’an are vulnerable to that level of scrutiny. So are most historical documents. So let us go to the main point.

Physical manuscripts of the Bible were available during the time of Mohammed. The Qur’an actually refers to them.

No just estimate of God do they make when they say: "Nothing doth God send down to man" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?—a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much: therein were ye taught that which ye knew not—neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "God": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6:91)​

The Qur’an does not deny the availability or accuracy of the scriptures, but condemns the religious leaders’ corrupt practices. The scriptures that were available during Mohammed’s lifetime, which he encouraged his followers to believe, copy, distribute, and not to deny, are available to us today.

Rasema, we have one life to live. The Bible contains my standard of truth. The Qur’an is your standard. Having read and studied both, I can confirm that there is harmony between their principal teachings without compromising any teaching, or damaging the integrity of any verse in either book. I stake my professional reputation on that statement.

Our religious traditions are supposed to be supported by the teachings of our Books, and they generally are. However, there are quite a few teachings that are not – but that is OK. The problem occurs when one of our critical religious traditions actually conflict with our Books. When that happens, we have a choice to make. We can either submit to God, or we can submit to our religious traditions. I have chosen to submit to God.

You brought up the teaching of the Trinity. The Bible does support a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, Christian religious tradition has made the unverified assumption that this represented a Trinity of God, despite the abundant conflicting evidence. For the record, I believe the Bible, and uncompromisingly so, and I have found that it is in harmony with the principal teachings of the Qur’an.

You also noted that you are too busy to read the Bible. As previously noted, you cannot properly understand the Qur’an without a knowledge of the revelation in the Bible, to which the Qur’an refers the reader.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Rasema]

Let us suppose one can trace a book back to its author - would that mean it is therefore a Holy book? I cannot be sure what your argument is here but one supposes your chain of narrators goes back to the Prophet so was he the author of the Qu'ran?

We don't SUPPOSE that we trace a reveleation we can trace back the reveleation of the Qur'an to Muhammad,saws.

The chain of narrations proves the reveleation ORIGINAL. Therefore, this is the purpose of my argument that the Qur'an is original and that the Bible isn't so that is why we don't use it. The Qur'an was not written as a narrative or a book. In fact the Qur'an is not a book. While Bible means a book, Qur'an means recitaion. God called it a recitation because he made it a FORM of poetry, pose, rhyme so people can memorize it from top to cover.

Muhamamd was illeterate. So, he can not be an author. People coultn't write at the time. There was no schools neither did books exist so writting was not used. The Qur'an is Muhammad,saws, walking. He knew it by memory.

I have no idea what this is about Christians and the Jews as if they have completely separate manuscript collections of the Old Testament - do you really think that? No I said that the Septuagist disagrees with with the Hebrew Torah of the Jews in 1900 instances. The purpose I said this is so that there was attribution of men to the Bible. Again, I don't "think" I don't want to "think" this verse is by men this by God. Because we don't know and I don't want to reject words of God and accept words of men. CAN I MAKE MY SELF ANY CLEARER????

I doubt that ALL Muslims do this and many other people pray regularly and work hard but Christians and Jews revere their parents but only worship God

The purpose I said this is not that Christians don't obey their parants!
I said this because the argument was that we Muslims need the Bible. We only need the Qur'an to be Muslims.

 

[Walter]

The purpose I said this is not that Christians don't obey their parants!
I said this because the argument was that we Muslims need the Bible. We only need the Qur'an to be Muslims.

Dear Rasema:

You do not need the Qur'an to be a Muslim. You only need to submit to God to be a Muslim.

Regards,
Grenville