Has Your 'God' ever dined on swine?

[جوري]

Greetings;

Sometimes when I think of all the absurdities that are found in Christianity and generally attributed to Jesus, I can't help but shrug my shoulders in amazement.. I usually can't get past the triple God complex to ponder other fooleries...

Most Christians allege they like to follow in Jesus' example and footsteps to later return to his side..
but how much of his behavior are they actually modeling? Here we have an alleged God, who forbade pigs in the OT, he came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel as per bible, who would have literally crucified him if he came with laws askew (like eating pigs)-- Jesus (or the promised one) is supposed to fulfill and complete the laws of the OT not abrogate them, I am certain he never ate pigs, in fact I am certain I remember an incident which I can't now rectify, where he exorcized a woman's so-called possession into pigs who later jumped off and died.. in other words, these creatures were never viewed as lovable much less edible.. so how did this evolution of pig eating happen? although admittedly it is less of a stretch from being a man/god... still

How much of the commandments did this alleged God break?
1-unusual brand of prayers
2-no circumcision for males
3- ok to eat pigs
4-Ok to make idols in churches and bow before them
5--ok to forgo monotheism and logic all together...
6- Ok to sin, since sin is forgiven through his self-immolation

the conundrum really remains, when evangelists come here trying to win converts, and I'll tell them first hand why it doesn't work..
for starters, they have false beliefs about Muslims as constantly fed to them by fundies the liked of falwel, so when they come bringing these large pamphlets of our beliefs forth we can all manage a chuckle, sort of like the moon god allegation, nonetheless if we are not merely wasting each other's time on puerile attempts, logic would dictate if you want to convince someone of something you must do so by studying their beliefs then putting dents, not making up false beliefs that you allege they believe and then trying to attract them to something inferior? but I do digress...

I would like to ask the fundies on board who are here to indoctrinate others into their brand of thinking...

beneath all the velvet brocade and candles and stain glass and ceremonial hats, what does christianityreally have to offer?
how is christianity in keeping with monotheism?

 

[glo]

Greetings, Skye

I see from your profile that you are still grouchy.
I hope you will soon have reasons to be cheerful again!

I am not sure that I see myself fitting the description of "fundie who is here to indoctrinate others into their brand of thinking" :giggling:, but I will give you my thoughts on some of the points you have reaised anyway ...

How much of the commandments did this alleged God break?

I don't think Jesus did any of those things you mention. He was a Jew and therefore followed the practices of the Jews. He almost certainly didn't eat pork and he was himself circumcised.

Jesus is reported to have broken certain laws, which the pharisees of the day upheld and felt strongly about.
Namely he allowed his disciples to break the Sabbath law by picking grain on the Sabbath. Jesus himself is reported to have healed people on the Sabbath - which also broke the Sabbath law.
He allowed his disciples to eat without following the hand-washing ritual.

What Jesus' actions in those situations shows is that he put people before the law.

Jesus said:

"The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:8)

and

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."(Mark2:27)

When asked which laws were the most important ones to uphold, Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

As for the points you mentioned:

1-unusual brand of prayers

Jesus would have worshipped as Jews worship.
But there are many different ways to praise and worship God:
Abraham raised his hands to the Lord.
David danced before the Lord to the sound of cymbals and singing.
People in the Bible are said to have kneeled, stood, danced, sang, prostrated themselves ... there are no right or worng ways to express praise to God, only different ways.

2-no circumcision for males

When the church spread there was some debate between Jesus' disciples with regards to circumcision. The outcome was that circumcision was only seen relevant to those of Jewish background, but not for those who were Gentiles.
The New Testament speaks of the 'circumcision of the heart' rather than the physical circumcision. The latter is only a physical symbol of the first, it is the 'circumcision of the heart' - i.e. the submission and giving of oneself to God, which is of importance.

3- ok to eat pigs

As mentioned above, as a Jew Jesus almost certainly did not eat pork.
But when asked about cleanliness Jesus said the following:

"Are you still so dull? Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " (Matthew 15:16-20)

After Jesus' death, his disciple Peter has a repeated vision in which God tells him to eat food which Jews consider to be unclean. (See Acts 10)
Peter is a Jews himself, so the vision disturbs him and he rejects it - until it is confirmed by strangers coming to his house.

4-Ok to make idols in churches and bow before them

Interestingly enough I read not so long ago that statues and images of Jesus were not used in churches in the first centuries.
Perhaps people's understanding of what an 'idol' is has changed over time.

Personally I would see an idol to be something which distracts me from God, and which becomes more powerful than God himself. Would you agree with that?
On that basis anything and everything can become an idol. My career, my marriage, money, hobbies, etc etc can all become idols.

Are statues idols? Do they distract us from God and become godlike in themselves? Perhaps that depends on us individually.
When I go to church and look at the image of Jesus on the cross, it acts for me as a reminder of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, and of the very premise of my faith. It is something which concentrates my focus and attention, rather than distract me from God.
I don't think the statue has any magic powers - it is a wooden, man-made thing, no more no less.

Perhaps you could compare it to prayer beads, which I know are used in Islam too ... They are simply tools to help the prayer focus and concentrate. In themselves they have to power or magic at all.
Were we to believe that the statue/beads have powers, which we are praying to, then we would be idolators!

5--ok to forgo monotheism and logic all together...

There are many very informative and helpful posts in other threads, which explain very clearly that Christians clearly and without any doubt consider themselves to be monotheists (try this thread, for example), so I won't comment further on it here.

6- Ok to sin, since sin is forgiven through his self-immolation

Christians believe that God is a God of mercy, and that he forgives our sins if we sincerely repent.
Christians believe that by Jesus' death he reconciled humanity with God and overcame the rift between God and mankind which has been caused by the sinfulness of man.
Christians do not believe that it is okay to sin, and that we can go on sinning because God forgives us anyway ...

Again, this has been discussed many times before. I shouldn't take you long to find the appropriate threads in the Comparative Religions section.


I wonder whether this thread might fit better into the Comparative Religion section? Perhaps the mods can move it, if you are happy with that, Skye.

Salaam

 

[جوري]

Greetings, Skye

Greetings,

I see from your profile that you are still grouchy.

What does my profile have to do with this topic?

I hope you will soon have reasons to be cheerful again!

Thanks for your sincere concern!

I am not sure that I see myself fitting the description of "fundie who is here to indoctrinate others into their brand of thinking" :giggling:, but I will give you my thoughts on some of the points you have reaised anyway ...

Perhaps you shouldn't partake in a thread addressing fundies then?
Guilt by reply? :giggling:

I don't think Jesus did any of those things you mention. He was a Jew and therefore followed the practices of the Jews. He almost certainly didn't eat pork and he was himself circumcised.

I never mentioned that he ate pigs, I asked if he ate pigs?

Jesus is reported to have broken certain laws, which the pharisees of the day upheld and felt strongly about.
Namely he allowed his disciples to break the Sabbath law by picking grain on the Sabbath. Jesus himself is reported to have healed people on the Sabbath - which also broke the Sabbath law.

Why did your God change his mind?

He allowed his disciples to eat without following the hand-washing ritual.

and not enough concern for their hygiene?

What Jesus' actions in those situations shows is that he put people before the law.

You believe that eating pigs and not washing your hand is putting people before the law, that he allegedly instated in the OT?

Jesus would have worshipped as Jews worship.

Then why don't Christians worship as Jews worship?

But there are many different ways to praise and worship God:

The question is how did God pray to God for others to emulate and follow in his footsteps..

Abraham raised his hands to the Lord.

indeed..

David danced before the Lord to the sound of cymbals and singing.

No evidence that dance is a form of worship, David had a beautiful voice, undoubtedly he recited the words of the Lord as the Jews and Muslims recite prayers, that isn't song or organ playing!

People in the Bible are said to have kneeled, stood, danced, sang, prostrated themselves ... there are no right or worng ways to express praise to God, only different ways.

I think some ways can border upon sacrilege, but then I also believe in lesser of evils, no harm to clap and dance when worshiping a man I suppose!

When the church spread there was some debate between Jesus' disciples with regards to circumcision. The outcome was that circumcision was only seen relevant to those of Jewish background, but not for those who were Gentiles.

indeed not a practice by your God? Your God was circumcised no? makes sense to do as he did?

The New Testament speaks of the 'circumcision of the heart' rather than the physical circumcision. The latter is only a physical symbol of the first, it is the 'circumcision of the heart' - i.e. the submission and giving of oneself to God, which is of importance.

Again, point is you have done away with something major symbolizing the covenant between God and Abraham, as well your own God was himself circumcised thus leaves me to believe that it is not open to church re-interpretation?

As mentioned above, as a Jew Jesus almost certainly did not eat pork.
But when asked about cleanliness Jesus said the following:

Agreed your God didn't eat pigs as in he upheld the law of the OT

After Jesus' death, his disciple Peter has a repeated vision in which God tells him to eat food which Jews consider to be unclean. (See Acts 10)
Peter is a Jews himself, so the vision disturbs him and he rejects it - until it is confirmed by strangers coming to his house.

So you are basing the abolition of a major commandment on visions of people who enjoyed bacon and not something Jesus enforced during his lifetime?

Interestingly enough I read not so long ago that statues and images of Jesus were not used in churches in the first centuries.
Perhaps people's understanding of what an 'idol' is has changed over time.

perhaps indeed.. isn't that disturbing? so far everything your God wanted in the OT abolished in the NT? is religion about people's understanding or in keeping with God's commandments?

Personally I would see an idol to be something which distracts me from God, and which becomes more powerful than God himself. Would you agree with that?

I don't since from my view you are kneeling before an idol and praying to a man.

On that basis anything and everything can become an idol. My career, my marriage, money, hobbies, etc etc can all become idols.

I am not following? I think an idol is material effigy (especially in the form of sculpture)) that is worshipped

Are statues idols? Do they distract us from God and become godlike in themselves? Perhaps that depends on us individually.

see above reply

When I go to church and look at the image of Jesus on the cross, it acts for me as a reminder of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, and of the very premise of my faith. It is something which concentrates my focus and attention, rather than distract me from God.

Given that I think what you are doing is the very definition of idol worship, I'll have to disagree, this is exactly what God warned against!

I don't think the statue has any magic powers - it is a wooden, man-made thing, no more no less.

Isn't that the worst thing of all, a man man wooden thing that you kneel before and hold in high regard and is supposed to represent your God? Pagan Arabs used to fashion their Gods of dates worship them then eat them, Buddhists do the same of statues of butter, celebrate then eat.. I don't see it as different from eating the body of your God or drinking his blood.. How did monotheism get so deranged by your God? that would sow the seeds of doubt in my heart for sure!

Perhaps you could compare it to prayer beads, which I know are used in Islam too ... They are simply tools to help the prayer focus and concentrate. In themselves they have to power or magic at all.
Were we to believe that the statue/beads have powers, which we are praying to, then we would be idolators!

Prayer beads are frowned upon in Islam, but still have no relation of Jesus statues and man worship if I am to go solely by your logic!

There are many very informative and helpful posts in other threads, which explain very clearly that Christians clearly and without any doubt consider themselves to be monotheists (try this thread, for example), so I won't comment further on it here.

I don't see how it can be helpful when all you'll reference me to as I suggested were the dreams and visions of men that your God allegedly appeared to, after he foresake himself.. Why didn't God linger around long enough to clarify things to others?

Christians believe that God is a God of mercy, and that he forgives our sins if we sincerely repent.

How does this relate to the topic?

Christians believe that by Jesus' death he reconciled humanity with God and overcame the rift between God and mankind which has been caused by the sinfulness of man.

I am not following what that means, so why didn't God do this earlier for Abraham or Issac or david, or Aaron, or John the baptist, or Enoch, or or or? What does reconciling humanity with God mean to you? and were the people who came before him not reconciled? to hell with them basically?

Christians do not believe that it is okay to sin, and that we can go on sinning because God forgives us anyway ...

Doesn't that contradict the statement you have just made above of overcoming a rift?

Again, this has been discussed many times before. I shouldn't take you long to find the appropriate threads in the Comparative Religions section.

Perhaps not explained adequately since the question seems to go unresolved for many!

I wonder whether this thread might fit better into the Comparative Religion section? Perhaps the mods can move it, if you are happy with that, Skye.

Salaam

I have no reservation on where the mods think this better belongs...

all the best

 

[Muezzin]

I think this thread better belongs in Comparative Religion.

 

[glo]

Greetings, Skye

I cannot possibly reply to all the different comments you made - I simply lack the time and the energy.

Apologies for getting it wrong on the prayer beads. I have seen (elderly) Muslim men sitting on the park benches with prayer beads running through their fingers, and I had made the assumption that it was common practice in Islam ...

On a general note, your replies and some discussion with my hubby have made me aware of another interesting difference between Islam and Christinanity.

Islam places such great importance on imitating the example of Muhammed - often to the minutest detail. Muslims try to sleep on the same side as their prophet (at least that's what I have read here in LI). Muslims break the fast with the same food their prophet did.
Those are just two small examples I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure there are hundreds more.
Muslims aim to become better Muslims by imitating Muhammed as much as possible. Is that fair to say?

Christians aim to be like Jesus with regards to what he taught and the examples he gave in dealing with other people, but we don't try to copy the very lifestyle he lead.
Firstly we don't have that kind of detail about his life, secondly it doesn't seem so important.
That's perhaps why many Christian traditions are not directly based on what Jesus did. Jesus didn't say "I don't forget to celebrate my birthday every year". Nor did he say "Stick up crosses in your churches". :rollseyes

But he did tell us to remember him and to not be lead astray ... and that's why we follow our (different) traditions.
What's important is not what we do, or that we all do the same, or that it always imitated Jesus to the detail - but that we remember him, that we align our lives with his teaching, that we allow God's Spirit to guide us daily.

As I said in my previous post, Jesus said this:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

When challenged by the pharisees why he was not stricter in keeping the laws, Jesus said this:

'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' (Matthew 12:7 and Matthew 9:13; based on Hosea 6:6)

Personally I conclude from that that for Jesus our hearts, our attitudes, our relationship with him is more important than the blind obeyance of religious laws ...
So Christians try to become better Christians by remaining in constant focus on Jesus and being open to God's Spirit moving inside them.

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear the views of others on this matter.

Please understand that I am not trying to criticise Islam.
I am just poiting out the differences in our faiths and religious practices.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings, Skye

Greetings

I cannot possibly reply to all the different comments you made - I simply lack the time and the energy.

Why partake in a thread you can't reply to with high fidelity?

Apologies for getting it wrong on the prayer beads. I have seen (elderly) Muslim men sitting on the park benches with prayer beads running through their fingers, and I had made the assumption that it was common practice in Islam ...

Force of habit, it is best for them to do dhikr with their fingers, as they will be a witness on the day of recompense!

On a general note, your replies and some discussion with my hubby have made me aware of another interesting difference between Islam and Christinanity.

Your atheist hubby made you aware of that difference?

Islam places such great importance on imitating the example of Muhammed - often to the minutest detail. Muslims try to sleep on the same side as their prophet (at least that's what I have read here in LI). Muslims break the fast with the same food their prophet did.
Those are just two small examples I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure there are hundreds more.
Muslims aim to become better Muslims by imitating Muhammed as much as possible. Is that fair to say?

We strive for equal practices as those of the prophet when it comes to worship...

Christians aim to be like Jesus with regards to what he taught and the examples he gave in dealing with other people, but we don't try to copy the very lifestyle he lead.

How are you like Jesus? are you mini gods? That is what Jesus was like, a man who was circumcised, didn't eat pigs, didn't play the organ, didn't pray to himself.. how exactly are you like him?

Firstly we don't have that kind of detail about his life, secondly it doesn't seem so important.

What is important about his life do you think? what is the take home message?

That's perhaps why many Christian traditions are not directly based on what Jesus did. Jesus didn't say "I don't forget to celebrate my birthday every year". Nor did he say "Stick up crosses in your churches". :rollseyes

Seems odd that you should do it no? celebrating the birth of god? making wooden effigies of him? especially that he did warn against that very thing no?

But he did tell us to remember him and to not be lead astray ... and that's why we follow our (different) traditions.

you realize that lead astray and different traditions are a contradiction?
you can't be lead aright and follow different paths, it just doesn't follow!

What's important is not what we do, or that we all do the same, or that it always imitated Jesus to the detail - but that we remember him, that we align our lives with his teaching, that we allow God's Spirit to guide us daily.

What is the difference then between an agnostic who believes in God and dances to his own drums, to a christian who worships a man and dances to the organ if all that it comes down to is a a remembrance of a person?

As I said in my previous post, Jesus said this:


When challenged by the pharisees why he was not stricter in keeping the laws, Jesus said this:

What does loving your neighbor and having mercy have to do with doing away with major established commandments of the old T? Those seem like ancillary supporting phrases not the crux of an entire religion!
Also it would seem hypocritical of God to do one thing and expect you to do another.. for instance that he doesn't eat swine but allows you to do it? further telling you the means of going about doing it, by someone whom Jesus himself didn't appoint as an apostle rather a self-appointed apostle?

Personally I conclude from that that for Jesus our hearts, our attitudes, our relationship with him is more important than the blind obeyance of religious laws ...

I see what you mean.. sort of like I love my parents but to hell with the laws that established in this household because that would be a blind observance not an understanding of why?

So Christians try to become better Christians by remaining in constant focus on Jesus and being open to God's Spirit moving inside them.

I have no idea what that means... you are nothing like Jesus, not of his Godhood, nor his practices, nor his commandments.. how exactly are you like him?

Perhaps it would be interesting to hear the views of others on this matter.

indeed

Please understand that I am not trying to criticise Islam.
I am just poiting out the differences in our faiths and religious practices.

I don't see how you could possibly criticize Islam even if you were really trying? all you do is quell yourself about your belief system, and it does nothing by way of a comparative religion!

Peace

all the best

 

[Pygoscelis]

Why would a god have to eat?

 

[جوري]

^^ good question, indeed I'd like to know why God would eat, have bowel movements, get angry at a tree he allegedly created, pray, feel fear, or die...

Doesn't make him perfect, omnipotent, or at all divine.. unless there is a different definition of God than what the rest of us know?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Wonderful thing about Gods is they can be whatever you want them to be.

 

[glo]

Why would a god have to eat?

^^ good question, indeed I'd like to know why God would eat, have bowel movements, get angry at a tree he allegedly created, pray, feel fear, or die...

He would indeed do all those things, if he came to earth in human form ...

Skye, I find your comments and questions very helpful in helping me to understand how and why Muslims must find the Christian faith so frustrating, and how they must struggle to understand the Christian way of thinking and believing (if indeed they are inclined to try to understand their Christian brothers and sisters in humanity).

You ask how exactly Christians are like Jesus.
If you read my post, you will realise that I didn't say we were like Jesus, but that we aim to be like him.
(Having said that, I do indeed believe that we are like Jesus - at least underneath our flaws and faults :-[. After all, we are all made in the image of God! By aiming to be like Jesus (who we believe to be God in human form) and trusting in the power of God's Spirit and guidance in our loves, we hope to gradually strip away those flaws and faults ...)

How do we try to imitate Jesus, if not through external things such as clothing, food etc?
We look at his teachings; at the values he taught; the compassion he showed to those outcast or discriminated by society: women, non-Jews, prostitutes, sinners; the way he spent time in conversation/prayer with the Father; the way he taught us to pray ...
There is much to learn from Jesus, other than what clothes he wore or whether he tied his left or right sandal first ... don't you think?
Have you read the gospels for yourself, Skye?

Peace, sis

 

[Danah]

very good thread :thumbs_up

when I read the thread, the first thing came to my mind was this:

Many Christians or the majority of them are following the teachings of Paul not Jesus, may be this is the reason of why they are doing what Jesus didn't do in his life.
I remember reading this sentence:

Christianity is commonly said to owe as much to Paul as to Jesus

for some reason, both are considered at the same place in Christianity, I meet some Christians on the internet and many of them said that most of the Christians in the current time are following the teachings of Paul not Jesus.

Can that explain why they are eating pigs or do what Jesus did not do??


another thing, about God eating food, If God eat food when he is the "human form" as they claimed then we can say that he is acting exactly like humans "while he is in the human form", right?
How can we considered him as a God when he is not superior to humans and act EXACTLY like them? someone explain this to me plz, because there must be a kind of differentiated!!

 

[Keltoi]

The issue remains and always will remain the very different understanding of who God is in the context of Christianity vs Islam. Many Muslims view the Christian understanding of God as "less than godlike" due to Christ's human form. Christians view this as natural evidence of God's limitless power and mercy.

The thread title shows another issue. As Glo mentioned, Muslims believe they are to imitate Mohammed in as many ways as possible. In Christianity, we do not believe physical imitation or diet bring one closer to God. Christ did not view these rituals as important as the content of the spirit and the heart. What good is the imitation of righteousness compared to true righteousness of the heart and soul?

For Christians, that is one of the many important lessons Christ taught us.

 

[جوري]

He would indeed do all those things, if he came to earth in human form ...

Why would God assume human form?

Skye, I find your comments and questions very helpful in helping me to understand how and why Muslims must find the Christian faith so frustrating, and how they must struggle to understand the Christian way of thinking and believing (if indeed they are inclined to try to understand their Christian brothers and sisters in humanity).

I really don't think it is reserved to just Muslims, how does any christian justify this to anyone whom they are trying to indoctrinate into Christianity?

You ask how exactly Christians are like Jesus.
If you read my post, you will realise that I didn't say we were like Jesus, but that we aim to be like him.

semantics, how do you aim to be more like him? do you 'aim' to be minigods?

(Having said that, I do indeed believe that we are like Jesus - at least underneath our flaws and faults :-[. After all, we are all made in the image of God! By aiming to be like Jesus (who we believe to be God in human form) and trusting in the power of God's Spirit and guidance in our loves, we hope to gradually strip away those flaws and faults ...)

That is just filler, I am not sure how you aim to be like Jesus?

How do we try to imitate Jesus, if not through external things such as clothing, food etc?
We look at his teachings; at the values he taught; the compassion he showed to those outcast or discriminated by society: women, non-Jews, prostitutes, sinners; the way he spent time in conversation/prayer with the Father; the way he taught us to pray ...

You pray like Jesus? also, the teachings of Jesus are shared by ALL messengers, why look at only his teachings? plus have you read the bible views on women (Corinthians) are those Jesus' views?

There is much to learn from Jesus, other than what clothes he wore or whether he tied his left or right sandal first ... don't you think?
Have you read the gospels for yourself, Skye?

worship has nothing to do with clothes.. and indeed I have read your 'Gospel' I didn't find that which you attribute to Jesus on there!

Peace, sis

all the best

 

[جوري]

The issue remains and always will remain the very different understanding of who God is in the context of Christianity vs Islam. Many Muslims view the Christian understanding of God as "less than godlike" due to Christ's human form. Christians view this as natural evidence of God's limitless power and mercy.

actually it is the context of Christianity vs. what they are selling to others as 'truth', I reference you of course to such members as 'follower', 'Alapiana' et. al.

The thread title shows another issue. As Glo mentioned, Muslims believe they are to imitate Mohammed in as many ways as possible. In Christianity, we do not believe physical imitation or diet bring one closer to God. Christ did not view these rituals as important as the content of the spirit and the heart. What good is the imitation of righteousness compared to true righteousness of the heart and soul?

'righteousness' is a relative issue-- I certainly don't view the deception of Christians as righteousness and neither do other people, least of which then they go indoctrinating others by way of deception ( the stealth crusade), the end justifies the mean type thing.. further, if we are to compare, Islamic practices are that which we believe God dictates and wants, Christian practices by mere history are those which Paul/doubting Thomas and the clan want, not those of Jesus given he himself didn't practice them nor enforced them.
doing things aright doesn't translate to less importance as the content of the heart and soul, given that one should practice them out of purity of the 'heart and soul'-- why else would want take the effort and time then and by whose standards are we judging??

For Christians, that is one of the many important lessons Christ taught us.

The rest of us don't view the christian life style as the 'teachings of christ'

all the best

 

[idk]

Interestingly enough I read not so long ago that statues and images of Jesus were not used in churches in the first centuries.
Perhaps people's understanding of what an 'idol' is has changed over time.

That was probably before paul, who hated christians, had that 'vision' overnight and decided to ruin everyones lives. When he went to Rome, he saw that they believed that their gods walked freely among humans and even managed to have children with them. Which i think is where it all went wrong. Paul supposedly changed the christian religion based on the roman myths - which is why idols came into the churches - the romans prayed in temples to idols. And then from there he decided to spice it up even more - by declaring that jesus was god in human figure, who had a child (stakfirulah) with Mary and then was born from the same woman he had the child with.
And Pandoras box, - definately originated from a Roman myth. And the Romans saw that this religion was near enough to theirs to not change their life, but made more sense. I guess this is when the term Roman Catholic was made?

 

[Pygoscelis]

I could never get past the concept of God sacrificing himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind. Isn't that the trinity?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I could never get past the concept of God sacrificing himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind. Isn't that the trinity?

As another member once put it so eloquently

Jesus pbuh had himself tortured and killed in order to save mankind from his own wrath.

On a different note all this talk about "personal" relationships gets me confused. We need a "personal relationship" with God in man-form to draw closer to God in...god-form?

 

[Keltoi]

I'm not going to get into another one of these threads telling Christians what it is they believe. I believe Glo and I have responded to the point of the thread, as much of a point as was there.

 

[جوري]

No one is forcing you you to partake into this thread or telling you what you believe, you have stated clearly what you believe and we have pointed out where it is flawed-- this should really serve as a reminder for the fundies on board (follower, Alapiana, Seeker, fedos, ab, and the rest) how easily Christianity can be dismantled before they get too ambitious!


all the best

 

[glo]

I'm not going to get into another one of these threads telling Christians what it is they believe. I believe Glo and I have responded to the point of the thread, as much of a point as was there.

Hi Keltoi

To be honest, the choice of thread title may have given a bit of a clue as to whether this thread was intending to invite peaceful and mutual exchange of information with regards to religious views and beliefs, or not.

Peace