Hate for the Pagan

[IAmZamzam]

I never said you did; I said Islam and Christianity did.

The religions themselves did? Religions can't do anything of the sort; only people can. And I was not one of those people.

Maybe you can give me an example of this?

I gave you one earlier, and if you were really the one between us who isn't ignorant of paganism then you would already be able to think of several examples for yourself off the top of your head.

Yet again, you prove your lack of understanding. If you knew anything about paganism, you'd know that it had no "doctrine"; there was no holy pagan book, like a Quran or Bible, and they had nothing written in stone about how they should behave or think about the divine. There was no "Pagan Doctrine"; you cannot summarize paganism in the way you can summarize Islam's or Christianity's main tenets. This is why a cultural study of paganism is necessary, as that is the best way in which we can understand this religion! (I think I'd know I'm writing a **** thesis on this subject!)

There was no single doctrine since there was no single kind of paganism but they all did have doctrines or else you couldn't call them religions at all. I didn't say anything about any one single thing called "The Pagan Doctrine", you're just putting words in my mouth. Wow do you have a lot of ignorance to project onto me!! Have you honestly forgotten that the rest of us here don't all have this detached, purely historical viewpoint of religion like you do as a disbeliever in it? This isn't an anthropology class, it's a discussion on what makes sense and what doesn't, and what makes sense is to regard worship as the ultimate devotion to a single thing that's highest in your estimation or else it's hardly worship at all (or at least not the most devout kind psychologically), it's just divided focus. Shut up about culture already.

 

[Thucydides1987]

and what makes sense is to regard worship as the ultimate devotion to a single thing that's highest in your estimation or else it's hardly worship at all (or at least not the most devout kind psychologically), it's just divided focus.

Sure, that makes sense very much -- to a monotheist.

The religions themselves did? Religions can't do anything of the sort; only people can. And I was not one of those people.

Well that's what I meant, the people who represent those religions; do I really need to spell it out like that for you? LOL, and yes of course I would not blame you for committing the countless horrific acts of all those medieval barbarians.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Sure, that makes sense very much -- to a monotheist.

Either explain how it doesn't make sense altogether or just let it go. No one beyond the age of ten should ever have to resort to repeated cop-outs of, "Well, of course you think that, you're a such-and-such!"

Well that's what I meant, the people who represent those religions....

Nobody ever truly represents anything but their own selves. How if I told you that the worst communist dictators "represented" atheism or nonreligion?

 

[Thucydides1987]

Nobody ever truly represents anything but their own selves

True, but I don't think that you need get so philosophical in order to decipher what I meant.

Either explain how it doesn't make sense altogether or just let it go. No one beyond the age of ten should ever have to resort to repeated cop-outs of, "Well, of course you think that, you're a such-and-such!"

I think it's more or less self-explanatory; as a monotheist, your worldview is centered around one single God, and being a part of your religion, you have an obligation throughout your life to reaffirm his divinity and majesty. That is what He demands from you, and what he demands obviously is the right and just thing to do. When you say that "divided focus" in worship is not as sincere or that it's not the most devout kind of a worship, you're applying the standards of monotheist thinking (the need to worship and concentrate on ONE being) unto a pagan religious mindset that operates without such emphasis on divine hierarchy. It is not inherently 'right' to worship one thing rather than many things, and neither does it makes 'more sense', for you cannot objectively prove that -- I'd be amazed if you do. It only become right or wrong when you apply a certain standard which has been created ideologically (in your case, your religion), and this is what you have been operating on during the course of our discussion.

 

[IAmZamzam]

It doesn't matter how many times or in how many different ways I explain the common sense of the matter to you that utmost devotion is at its purest and most sincere when it is not divided between different objects and this is just one manifestation of a universal principle of human psychology that you will see around you every day, even when it comes to human devotion to other humans; nor that if there is a hierarchy of gods then the foremost god in that hierarchy should not be respected equally with the others. Always you resort to again poisoning the well about my own monotheism instead of actually showing how I'm wrong about any of it--which you seem to dang well know you cannot do. It is therefore pointless to continue. I ask you again, just drop it. Otherwise I reserve the right to respond to every single criticism of theism you might ever make in the future by brushing it off as merely coming from an atheist who doesn't think with the same paradigms as the people he's rebutting and therefore doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Thucydides1987]

utmost devotion is at its purest and most sincere when it is not divided between different objects and this is just one manifestation of a universal principle of human psychology

This is absolutely not common sense; this is more akin to a theory.

Alas, I will drop it, as we're indeed not going to get anywhere like this.

 

[Trumble]

Pity, I was just getting interested. My first thought was that 'utmost devotion' must necessarily not be divided, otherwise it could not be 'utmost'. On reflection, though, in view of the claim that statement is true "even when it comes to human devotion to other humans", would that mean that it is impossible for a mother to have the 'utmost devotion' for any of her children unless she either has only one or ignores the others?

What is this 'universal principle of human psychology'?

 

[M.I.A.]

believing in only one god does not weaken any aspect of the person in devotion or action in the external world.. because of the things that one god has asked you to do, wrt islam.

i would try and love any child as i do my own, but she is young yet.. as she grows i will grow inshallah.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Pity, I was just getting interested. My first thought was that 'utmost devotion' must necessarily not be divided, otherwise it could not be 'utmost'. On reflection, though, in view of the claim that statement is true "even when it comes to human devotion to other humans", would that mean that it is impossible for a mother to have the 'utmost devotion' for any of her children unless she either has only one or ignores the others?

What is this 'universal principle of human psychology'?

When people have more than one lover, they tend to favor one and be more sincerely devout to them than to the other, don't they? I'm saying that the human mind is like that. The children in your analogy may equally receive equal "devotion" in the sense of care but it will be harder for the parent to have exactly the same DEVOTION, as in adoring esteem, to all of them. They'll all get some, and the mother will say to her dying day that they all got exactly the same amount, but this is frequently a lie. That's why favoritism happens so much in families. It's not unavoidable but that hardly matters since the type of devotion I was referring to was not that kind, but a devotion that is religious in nature, where this principle of psychology is taken to the extreme, and into a whole other ball park.

Thucydides was depicting polytheism as a realm in which it's somehow sensible for the medieval peasant to be every little bit as loyal to the lords and ladies of the realm as to the emperor himself. I say, as long as there is an emperor, just do things for the kingdom in his name alone. That is what they did, isn't it? I mean, you never hear chivalric lore of any knights serving any kingdom riding bravely into battle shouting "For Count Piddlesticks!" as their war cry, do you?

 

[Zafran]

Yes, and I was referring specifically to the Umayyad period/Caliphate, for it was from then onwards that the persecutions of the Shia began. I never heard of "The Caliphate Period" the way you refer to it. I know of the period of the first 4 caliphs to be called the "Rashidun Caliphate", but never as the time of "The Caliphate"...especially considering that there were different "caliphates" all over the middle east throughout history (the cordoba caliphate, the abassid caliphate, etc.)

They came later - the rightly Guided caliphate period or Rashidun Caliphate period - then straight after came the Ummayed - as we were talking about the emergence of the shia I dont know why you would go so for to the abbasids or the ummayeds of Cordoba?

 

[siam]

"I'd definitely agree with you about France; it does have a much stronger tendency to demand assimilation -- i'd argue that France is much more pluralistic than Britain. Britain could be pluralistic, but one can argue that, because it's very lax on assimilation, it's very multicultural."----I'll go with that---I may have misunderstood "pluralism".

These are interesting social experiments. Here in the East, we also have "multiculturalism"---though its called "multi-ethnic".

Its not possible to trun back the clock on globalization. So all of us will have to find a way to move forward and learn to co-exist.......it will be an interesting future......how will it turn out?

 

[MrOmar]

All Pagans will be in the Hell fire forever. How do people make lies about Allah (SWT) saying he has a son, worshiping statues or not worshiping him, everyone who believes in god hates the Pagan godless people & wishes 2 things of them 1 their destruction 2 them worshiping the one & only god Allah (SWT).

 

[IAmZamzam]

All Pagans will be in the Hell fire forever. How do people make lies about Allah (SWT) saying he has a son, worshiping statues or not worshiping him

You are acting not like an ideal true believer but more like the caricature of religious people that non-religious stereotypers hold in their mind. Whether nor not what you're saying is true talking the way you're talking does not have any positive effect on anything, it just reinforces people's prejudices. Believe it or not, some people who say they believe those things are not liars: they really do believe them--occasionally (though never anywhere near often enough for comfort, if their words and behavior is any indication) out of an honest mistake rather than genuine kafir-ism.

everyone who believes in god hates the Pagan godless people...

You can't speak for anyone but yourself. I don't hate pagans, just paganism. In fact, now that I think of it, I don't believe I even feel strongly enough about paganism to hate it either. I just disapprove.

...& wishes 2 things of them 1 their destruction 2 them worshiping the one & only god Allah (SWT).

Has it occurred to you that those two things contradict each other? What we are supposed to wish is the latter only. You seem driven by hate and spite. Islam is a religion of peace and compassion.

 

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

Perfectly said, Yahya. Everyone knows about hellfire preaching already, people need to know all the details and truths about what religions teach without getting 'heated' so-to-say. I registered to have interfaith dialogue for the purpose of increased understanding for not only myself but for all members here. I do hope MrOmar can contribute more thoughtful and constructive posts in the future.

 

[MrOmar]

Yahya you can down play that Pagans will not be in Hell all you like But me im following what Allah (SWT) says:
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.5:72 (The Holy Quran) UsayIsaIsayGod you will be in the Hell fire for lying about god having a son which you have no right to say how dare you lie about god! The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.5:75 (The Holy Quran) No need for interfaith dialogue your Christianity is a false man-made evil pagan practice. UsayIsaIsayGod save yourself from the Hell fire that your ancestors are going to be in, leave this devil made evil Christianity & embrace Islam the Truth.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. (Surah 16, verse 125, Yusuf Ali)

 

[MrOmar]

True brother Yahya, But remember:
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. (Surah 16, verse 125, Yusuf Ali)

 

[MrOmar]

O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination. (66:9 The Holy Quran)

 

[IAmZamzam]

True brother Yahya, But remember:
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah."....

The people? Which people? Surely you don't think the verse was referring to people who hadn't been born yet! That was a very specific circumstance the hadith was referring to, wasn't it? Not like you'll find every day.

O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination. (66:9 The Holy Quran)

Did you miss the "O Prophet" part?

Given that you list your location as "at your door watch out" I wonder if you are a stealth troll, an Islamophobe pretending to be one of us in a pitiful attempt to make us look bad.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Mr.Omar, people such as you are why people such as me so frequently and unfairly wearily eye people such as Usay and Yahya.