Have Bush and Blair increased terrorism by their actions

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:sl:

To all brothers and sisters of faith in this thread, including Zafar and Nablus,

The fragmentation of the Ummah is the source of all problems:

- when the Ottoman empire was broken up, the British instigated nationlism, but if the Arabs did not go for it, we would not have probably seen the Palestine problem as we see it today

It is a hypothetical statement, but I believe you will be able to see the point I am trying to make. Before blaming others and pointing fingers, we must look at ourselves to see where did we go wrong to end up where we have ended up.

Our fore fathers and ancestors made many mistakes, the results of which we are getting now - we must look at history to learn from it, analyze it fine details and sift through it to realize how the current situation was created.

I will ask of you to do one thing, to go to the wisest person you personally know and ask these questions:

- why are the muslims the way they are today, what is the reason for the downfall of muslims
- what can we do in the future to get out of this situation and excel as we did in the past

We need to look at the wisest source of all , the Holy Al-Quran and the advice of our beloved Prophet (SAWs) and they have already given us the answers many times.

unity, unity, unity
act, act, act
organize, organize, organize
unionize, unionize, unionize

so that we will be able to bargain collectively as one unit and one body.

We have a modest effort going at this thread:

LI Islamic Forum > General Forums > World Affairs >
Representative group from all muslim communities

The idea is to unite and act, instead of complaining and whining, not to mention avoiding and discouraging counterproductive negative activity.

The colonial era has ended, the world population has reached a certain point in their social and cultural evolution. I do not believe any country or group, western or eastern will try to suppress a genuine and positive effort for self-improvement.

Please read through the above thread and please let us know if you would be kind enough to join us and lend a hand in this effort to help the people of the Ummah.

:w:
 
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Providied a warning has been issued to withdraw troops, and it is ignored by the leader, then an attack will be justified.
The loss of life is regretable, but part of the operation.
I'm sorry I don't have a reference at hand, if anyone can help, The Prophet SAW was involved in battle with catapults and he was advised about women and children in the firing line and he ordered to continue with the attack, the ruling is not black and white.
 
Nablus said:
All of us know the black history of Britain in the Middle-east .The british people are the terrorists because they elected Tony so they deserve that.They could force The british army to get out from Iraq.Because .

what did the british do with our sisters and brothers in Iraq?!!!!!!!!!something shamefull let them cry and weep like our families in Iraq and Palestine


:sl: Brother

Thank you. I did not vote for Tony Blair, I have always stood against the war in Iraq and Afganistan. But you think it is fine for me to have people I love killed because of something done by the Government of the country I live in.

So your Islam does not contain compassion and justice?

What happens to my brothers and sisters in Iraq is a crime against humanity do you think I don't weep for them as much as I weep for the dead in London?

I have yet to see anywhere in Islam that it says someone should be punished for anothers wrong doing.

What happened to the Islamic edict that women, children and non-combatants should not be killed.

Frankly you should look at yourself.

Peace
 
Zafar said:
Providied a warning has been issued to withdraw troops, and it is ignored by the leader, then an attack will be justified.
The loss of life is regretable, but part of the operation.
I'm sorry I don't have a reference at hand, if anyone can help, The Prophet SAW was involved in battle with catapults and he was advised about women and children in the firing line and he ordered to continue with the attack, the ruling is not black and white.


:sl: Zafar

I am beginning to doubt that you are who you initially appear to be.

If you are a Muslim then look hard at what you are advocating and the consequences of what you are saying.

If you are not, go and play somewhere else.

Peace
 
Zafar said:
Its not about what little I've done or what little you've done.
It's about the 50 that died in London, and how some people are disgusted by this and turn a blind eye to Muslim victims all over the world everyday.
For instance why is there no outrage and a thread started on this bulletin board for the apartheid wall circling Jerusalem!


:sl:

It is exactly about what little you or I have done. Your words indicate that you are a supporter of these attrocities in London. The next step for you is to carry out similar.

My words indicate that I do not support the taking of innocent lives anywhere in the world. My actions will, by the grace of Allah, will also follow that path.

We will all answer for our deeds in this life, and there are none of us who will not need the mercy of Allah when we are Judged.

Peace
 
Zafar said:
Providied a warning has been issued to withdraw troops, and it is ignored by the leader, then an attack will be justified.
The loss of life is regretable, but part of the operation.
I'm sorry I don't have a reference at hand, if anyone can help, The Prophet SAW was involved in battle with catapults and he was advised about women and children in the firing line and he ordered to continue with the attack, the ruling is not black and white.

Men do not intentionally murder the innocent.

Men should fight like soldiers, not criminals, and respect innocent life, even if you believe your enemy refuses too.
 
:sl:

Members are warned not to advocate any un-islamic actions.

Islam condemnes what happend at the London bombings.

Who so ever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind," (Al-Ma'dah:32).

“…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.”
[ 6:151]

:w:
 
Nablus said:
The british people are the terrorists because they elected Tony so they deserve that.They could force The british army to get out from Iraq.

Using your method of analysis.....The Iraqi people accepted Saddam Hussein as their leader (I don't recall the country as a whole standing up and removing him on their own) so then did they deserve the sanctions and then now war brought on by the actions (or lack thereof) of their leader?
 
Have Bush and Blair increased terrorism by their actions?

My answer would also be "no."

In the 1998 Fatwa issued by Osama, he stated "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

Terrorism was a problem before either of these leaders became elected. And, for years, it was tolerated without retaliation by these countries.

Do you want to know what I think? Well, even if you don't I'm saying it anyway.....
I think all of these problems stem from fundamental problems with communication and understanding how each side thinks.

I can tell from the posts I've read here to date that there are some serious misperceptions about President Bush, Blair, Americans, the military, among other things. And, there is no doubt in my mind, there are incorrect perceptions against muslims, Islam, terrorists (or freedom fighter depending on your viewpoint). And, if those perceptions are throughout the muslim/non-muslim world....no wonder things are in the state that they are. It's interesting....those against the western "occupation" in Iraq support the insurgents because they want the occupation ended in Iraq....yet we stay because the more there are insurgent attacks, the less stability we perceive which makes us want to remain until there is stability. So, the very act that tries to get us to leave, makes us stay. Kind of ironic don't you think?
 
YamahaR1 said:
Using your method of analysis.....The Iraqi people accepted Saddam Hussein as their leader (I don't recall the country as a whole standing up and removing him on their own) so then did they deserve the sanctions and then now war brought on by the actions (or lack thereof) of their leader?

Nablus's statement that the British people deserve to have been bombed is wrong, killing "innocent" civilians is not justified not in Islam or in Geneva convention rules of engagement. The British public could not have voted Blair out of office at the time and stopped British deployment and it was clear from the amount of protests and polls that a large number of the British public was against Iraq war. Although a lot of us found it puzzling that Blair managed to wiggle in the second time around.

Besides, whoever did this, I highly doubt that Iraqi national's whose family and relatives got killed were involved in the bombing. "Islamists" who claim that they are taking revenge for fellow muslims who got killed in other places, is the biggest joke of all, I want to ask them, what else have they ever done for the other fellow muslims - if they really wanted to help fellow muslims there are a thousand and one constructive ways. You are seeing this rot and pus, because the Ummah has degenerated and its sick body is home to a lot of this rot and pus.

As for your statement about Iraqi people choosing Saddam, I am afraid it was a little more complicated than that. It was the Ottoman sultans and the Arab nationalists who are to blame for this, because it was their weakness which the British took advantage of and curved up the Ottoman Vilayets in these many countries, one of which is Iraq. Baathists were a natural extension of this nationalist movement and Saddam was its latest incarnations. Once in power, Saddam consolidated his position with Sunni henchmens, many of whom were his tribal kinsmen. His grip on power was like a cancerous tumor on Iraq. There were many coups but none were successful. The most recent was the Shia uprising in the 1st Iraq war, Shia's were encouraged but eventually the coalition army left them to be slaughtered by Saddam.

As for the Sanctions, it helped Saddam but made the people of Iraq and its children suffer, it was wrong, immoral and a crime.

Finally, Saddam's actions did not cause the Iraq invasion, it was Bush and his neocon advisers headstrong stupidity that caused it. Saddam was an out and out idiot and even at the last moment, I really thought he would give up and saved some lives, but I guess it was not that simple for him either, he could not just surrender with all his cronies, his cronies would probably have killed him before that - in any event, he did what he thought was best and just like Bush, Blair and the Neocons, Saddam also has blood in his hands.

All of the above people should be forwarded to UN war crimes tribunals, not just Saddam, if there is so called "justice" as opposed to the currently prevailing rules of the jungle called "might is right".
 
YamahaR1 said:
Do you want to know what I think? Well, even if you don't I'm saying it anyway.....
I think all of these problems stem from fundamental problems with communication and understanding how each side thinks.

I can tell from the posts I've read here to date that there are some serious misperceptions about President Bush, Blair, Americans, the military, among other things. And, there is no doubt in my mind, there are incorrect perceptions against muslims, Islam, terrorists (or freedom fighter depending on your viewpoint). And, if those perceptions are throughout the muslim/non-muslim world....no wonder things are in the state that they are. It's interesting....those against the western "occupation" in Iraq support the insurgents because they want the occupation ended in Iraq....yet we stay because the more there are insurgent attacks, the less stability we perceive which makes us want to remain until there is stability. So, the very act that tries to get us to leave, makes us stay. Kind of ironic don't you think?

Communication and understanding or perception is a problem, more dialogue and effort as you are trying in this forum is positive and good for all parties, I very much encourage this. People are product of their environments, you have your meme's and we have ours. The meme's will continue to be there, so it is best that we try to understand each other's meme's and accept them as they are.

The "insurgent's" logic is moronic as you have correctly pointed out and I agree with you completely, there is however one caveat, in their paranoia the "insurgents" really believe that the US is there for the long term and just like Saudi Arabia, they believe that the US will install a puppet regime there to control oil resources of Iraq. Some claim that the US is supposedly constructing permanent bases in Iraq, these are probably rumors.

If democracy succeeds and Iraq has a stable government, the US will be out and the Iraqi's will never accept an occupier as their friend who has caused the death of so many tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians. So I would ask you, what the US would have achieved with this adventure, what was in it for the US:

- less terrorism, no, its a breeding ground
- secure oil source, no, Saddam was always interested to sell in the world market and Iraqi's will do the same

The result is that after 500 billion dollars and 3000 lives, the US will have helped a muslim nation removed an idiotic but powerful dictator, in the process tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's lost their lives and as a result the US will never be a friend with this sizable and oil-rich country called Iraq.

Democracy, yes Iraq will have some form of it, but when muslims get democracy they choose Islam, just like they did in Algeria, not an outcome that the neocon's like or envision.
 
Salaam Zafar.

I just read your posts.

When you engage in a war you must expect retaliation.
If I throw a rock at your head and you start bleeding, I would expect a reaction from you.
The Prophet Muhammad PBUH engaged in Jihad.
The innocent people you say...most of which are against Islamic views.
In Islam you have to kill homosexuals, stone to death adulterers, kill any Muslim who renounces faith, death penalties for murderers and cutting of limbs for theives this is Islamic law, as commanded by Allah SWT.
The innocent people you are talking about all reject this.
This is incorrect information. Allah says in the Qur'an 2.256 "There is no compulsion in religion". If this is true, then where does killing people who don't want to believe in Islam come into it? The Qur'an does not speak about killing apostates. The rest of the things you have said also, where does the Qur'an give explicit legislation for us to kill homosexuals? For God's sake they are ill people, not evil people! We've gotta help them, not kill them! For murderers, yes they get death, justly so. So too for thieves. Notice though, the ayah after this sentence? "But if they repent, then leave them alone".

Please let's not propagate rubbish in our over zealous da'wah. Thanks for understanding.

Regards
 
:sl: Sheikh Haroon

I agree 100% with your post.

I have doubts over Zafar and his true identity.

He posted

"Providied a warning has been issued to withdraw troops, and it is ignored by the leader, then an attack will be justified.
The loss of life is regretable, but part of the operation.
I'm sorry I don't have a reference at hand, if anyone can help, The Prophet SAW was involved in battle with catapults and he was advised about women and children in the firing line and he ordered to continue with the attack, the ruling is not black and white."

This is not the language of someone who supports this but of an outsider, having spent a lot of time argueing these points the thinkI do know is that these guys can quote Qaran and Hadith. Out of context yes but they know their stuff.

I suspect a reporter fishing for quotes or something similar.

Peace
 
Lol lets starts a new thread "does anyone know zafar?" - this could be the start of a good 'ol middle aged witch hunt :p
 
minaz said:
Lol lets starts a new thread "does anyone know zafar?" - this could be the start of a good 'ol middle aged witch hunt :p
SILENCE, WITCH!

:p
 
khilji said:
If democracy succeeds and Iraq has a stable government, the US will be out and the Iraqi's will never accept an occupier as their friend who has caused the death of so many tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians. So I would ask you, what the US would have achieved with this adventure, what was in it for the US:

- less terrorism, no, its a breeding ground
- secure oil source, no, Saddam was always interested to sell in the world market and Iraqi's will do the same

The result is that after 500 billion dollars and 3000 lives, the US will have helped a muslim nation removed an idiotic but powerful dictator, in the process tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's lost their lives and as a result the US will never be a friend with this sizable and oil-rich country called Iraq.

Democracy, yes Iraq will have some form of it, but when muslims get democracy they choose Islam, just like they did in Algeria, not an outcome that the neocon's like or envision.

What was in it for the US? Bottom line…..protect our national interests and defend our way of life. 9/11 caused a heightened concern regarding terrorism. As Pres. Bush stated (and I'm paraphrasing), we will not distinguish between terrorists and those countries sponsoring/harboring them. We can not sit idly back and allow people to attack our homeland either without defending ourselves agaisnt those who threaten our way of life. We did sit idly back for many years and never retaliated. 9/11 was the turning point.
Saddam was not fully complying with the inspections. Just curious….how many people here have read the 9/11 Commission Report or the WMD Reports? There was much evidence that showed that Saddam continued to pursue WMD (while stockpiles were not found, all subsequent reports showed that Saddam was merely waiting for the inspections to stop and his plans were to reconstitute his WMD program). There had also been a long, documented history of ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda and the terrorist training camps based in Iraq (hence, it had already been a breeding ground for terrorism prior to the start of the war in 2003). Again, all Saddam had to do was allow true and open inspections and this could have all been avoided because it would've cleared the air regarding the suspicions on the WMD. Again, Americans have much better things to do than starting a war for fun. We don't enjoy sending our sons and daughters in harms way for the fun of it. (And, despite what some here think, we also don't torture, kill, rape and pillage for kicks either.) But, by not complying, Saddam gave the appearance that he had no respect for the UN requests and therefore, was not trustworthy and was a threat to our country. Our fear was that not only did Saddam have WMD, but that he would give them to those terrorists who would cause additional harm to US citizens. In the end, knowing that Saddam was only waiting the inspections out to reinstate his WMD program, I think it was best that he was removed. He was a threat and would've always been a threat to many. And, I do think the Iraqi people will be better off in a nation where they can control their own destiny. Yes, things are still unstable. This is something that takes times. Humans don't come out of the womb running either. The Iraqis have a fresh start. I pray that the new Iraqi leaders have the wisdom to now make decisions that ensures that the Iraqi people are prosperous and is willing to be a supporter of peace in the world community rather than a hinderance.
From the U.S.'s perspective, this is not a war about religion. We do not harbor ill will towards muslim nations or muslims as a group. This is not a war about oil. America is a nation rich in its own right. I think various countries of the world form a symbiotic relationship. We have things that Middle Eastern countries need to survive (materially speaking) and vice versa. Americans are more than willing to purchase oil and have the money to do so. We have no need to steal it or cause war to obtain it.
Now, many people have stated that the sanctions against Iraq merely hurt the citizens of Iraq, not the Iraqi leadership (and I agree) but it is a non-violent (i.e., non-war) tool used against world leaders for containment. Saddam could not be left unattended after he attacked Kuwait. Containment, in itself, is just as costly (if not more costly) in terms of life and money if analyzed. Please check out this report from the University of Chicago regarding costs of containment. Several pages are data but the first few pages are the meat of the report. Very interesting reading for those who've not considered these costs.
http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/steven.davis/research/War%20in%20Iraq%20versus%20Containment,%20Weighing%20the%20Costs%20(March%202003).pdf
The war in Iraq was first and foremost to get a regime change due to the perceived threat of Saddam and as part of the War on Terror. I disagree that all Iraqis see Americans as a foe. No doubt, there are some who do. Just like there are many people in the U.S. who were against the war. There will always be differences of opinion. In the end, today, each person has the choice for what happens from here on out. Either we can be part of the solution of part of the problem.
People who focus on only the negative will continue to do so no matter what positive news is out there. I, on the other hand, am a person who sees a cup as half full rather than half empty. I see hope for a future where the Iraqis can guide their own destiny. While there have been losses, there has also been positive progress.
 
Islam is the religion of peace that came out to offer humanity peace and well being in which ALLAH'S eternal mercy and compassion is manifested in the world.
ALLAH has commanded humanity to avoid evil: HE has forbidden immorality, rebellion, cruelty aggressiveness those who do not obey HIS after it has been agreed the curse will be upon them. They will have the Evil Abode. Killing innocent people is Evil act.

The meaning of Islam is total submission to ALLAH'S will. Islam is the religion of peace, purity and obedience. It is the religion of harmony. God conveyed HIS message of peace and unity to men by HIS prophets and messengers include, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad. Islam's message has been restored and enforce in the last stage of religious evolution by GOD'S last prophet and messenger Muhammad.
 
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We will never be able to see an end to terrorism because the double-terrorists are the perpetrators and the real culprits.
They then become the judge, the prosecutor and also the noble warriors of a “war on terrorism.’ Very very strange indeed: we are facing mass deception of an unprecedented nature and scale in human history.

If anything positive may emerge from the July 7 tragedy in London it is the growing realization that the terrorists and those who claim to be fighting a ‘war on terrorism’ are just one and the same people. For this reason we must resolve to expose the enemies of freedom and never give up to the hollow rhetoric of freedom and democracy on the part of double-terrorists.

Believing in their statements of mass deception or even staying silent in the face of their ever increasing lies sends the message to the double-terrorists and their allies that their terrorism upon terrorism works in favor of their totalitarian designs and so makes further atrocities at home and abroad more likely.

Blair's declaration that acts of terrorism will never influence British government policy is a clear sign that the attacks were staged for influencing public opinion in favor of not only continuing the bloodbath of innocents abroad but also to consolidate tyranny at home without much resistance.

One must note that after exposure of the Downing Street Memos and all associated lies that were invented to legitimize bloodbath in Iraq, there was a growing pressure on the UK government to withdraw troops from Iraq. Furthermore, a growing number of Britons were realizing the preferential treatment of the worse-than-apartheid state-of-Israel’s never ending occupation, terrorism, open racism, crimes against humanity, and the double standards on the part of US and UK towards Muslim states.

To ease the pressure, the news was leaked to the press on June 24 that the US is planning to withdraw some troops from Iraq. But that was not good enough to swing public opinion. That’s why behind the scene, planning was underway to make sure terrorism continues with unabashed skullduggery. British public’s acquiescence to the regime’s policy of continuing the war in Iraq would reinforce the message that double-terrorism works. Such a message in support of terrorism upon terrorism would dishonor the memories of those who died on October 07 at the hands of the same terrorists who have taken lives of more than 120,000 Iraqis in the war and 1.8 million Iraqis through genocidal sanctions so far.

Not only government leaders, but many other citizens of the world, as civic leaders, religious leaders, teachers, netizens, and letter writers may help send the shame-less terrorists the right message by categorically condemning terrorism at home and abroad. Their immediate response of blaming Muslims for what happens is a clear sign that the bloodbath was staged. The repeated stress on “our way of life” and “values” show the totalitarian designs to impose the same on others with the barrel of a gun.

Unfortunately, in newscasts throughout the day, we have heard several Britons describing how they had felt distanced from terrorism occurring elsewhere in the world until today's events. This is why such barbaric events are staged when it is time to elect a war leader in Spain, or to make public opinion in favor of war in Australia, or to ensure continued support from Turkey. What was shown on the “mainstream” TV channels was a typical human response that takes everything on the face value. The co-opted commentators kept repeating that many Britons have viewed terrorism as America's problem in a way to mean: “Did you see it for yourself now. Don’t say no to any war that we may be launching in the near future.”

Whatever else might be said about such expressions, they simply support the message from the leading crusaders (Bush and Blair) that terrorism works, that it can enable its perpetrators to shape world opinion as well as world order in their image. Such a message encourages others to join the ranks of terrorist armies at home and opportunistic collaborators abroad for more violence in distant parts of the world, a tiny fraction of which the British witnessed today.

Therefore we must take this opportunity to realize that the perpetrators on the bombing in London and Iraq and Afghanistan are using well trained armies to commit terrorism abroad and well trained secret agents to commit terrorism at home for additional support for terrorism abroad.

While the terrorists are fighting in the name of freedom and democracy and that definitely has merit, the intentional invasions and occupations on the basis of lies, the intentional killing of innocent people and the intentional establishment of countless concentration camps is never justifiable as means to promote the stated cause. The democratic terrorists should have learned from the failure of Communism that the end does not justify the means.

We will never be able to see an end to terrorism because the double-terrorists are the perpetrators: the real culprits. They then become the judge, the prosecutor and also declare a “war on terrorism.’ Very very strange indeed: we are facing mass deception of an unprecedented scale in human history.

A mere realization of this reality is enough to neutralize terrorist practices by preventing them from attaining their totalitarian designs in the short run. In the long run, they are going to take themselves out of steam with their own hands. No one is militarily so strong to defeat them. However, they digging a deep hole for themselves with the belief that they can continue to lie, cheat and fool the world indefinitely.

Public opinion is a powerful force. Spain withdrew its forces from Iraq. Italy is withdrawing partial forces in the face of mounting expressions of domestic and world opinion. Even UK leaked it to the press that it is considering withdrawal. Immediately after the bombing the double-terrorists’ initial promise was to keep fighting the war they have launched on the basis of nothing else but pure lies.

Thus, the categorical condemnation of this double-terrorism would go a long way towards its elimination. We need to expose and defeat the mindset that promotes and sustains this bloody game of double terrorism. Such a mindset is not hard to notice. For example, this mindset would argue to forget about Israeli, American, Russian and Indian occupations; focus on ending resistance to these occupations.

The cruel, inhuman mindset of these double-terrorists argues that the world must never give even the appearance of approving of, or yielding, to the resistance posed by the occupied, oppressed and humiliated people in Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq and Kashmir in word or deed. For example, such a sick mindset criticizes the New York Times for arguing that the Chechans deserve independence. They force people to take things on the face value and exact collective punishment on nations. Just the way they practice double-terrorism, they also use double language. They would say: “Chechans and Palestinians may well deserve independence, but the atrocities that occur should have the effect of making the world deaf to their legitimate grievances for a substantial period of time.”

This mindset is on display in Israel and the US is following the same line in Iraq. All human beings are not alike, nor do they suffer equally under foreign occupations. Some of them would lose everything, their families and all loved ones and in desperation would react against the oppressors. Others would find it perfectly legitimate to fight for their freedom. It doesn’t mean that the terrorist-occupiers should prolong their unjust occupations on the basis that acts of resistance, which they call terrorism, should have the sole effect of impeding the legitimate causes they are intended to promote.

Such thinking is the product of the sick-terrorist-mindset of the double terrorists. They know that as long as their tyrannical occupation would remain in place, resistance is bound to come. And as long as there is resistance, there would remain justification for prolonging tyranny under the banner of a war on terrorism.

One such sick terrorist mind is on display on Media Monitors dot net. Len Breslow, in an article, “we are all in the same boat,” argues: “Were the world to turn its back on the Chechan cause in response to the actions of a handful of terrorists, many innocent Chechans would be penalized for the actions of the few. But I believe the cost is necessary since the destruction of innocent human life is worse than most forms of oppression.” [1]

It means the destruction on life on the part of Chechens is no destruction at all. It is destruction when it is exacted on the oppressors: the terrorists and the enemies of their freedom. If Chechens die, let them die and put their legitimate cause on hold. But let no one from the aggressor’s side face death and destruction. Would this kind of an approach ever work in bringing peace when we know about the law of nature that every action has an equal and opposite reaction?

The above quoted argument shows the exact ideas which Friedman, Pipes, Spencer and the rest of the war lords are promoting in different words, at different time but with more sophistication in a professional manner.

It is naïve to assume that such an inhuman approach to the already occupied and oppressed people would encourage the majority of those, whom the freedom fighters claim to represent to move against the freedom fighters, thus further isolating them. This is dream of the sick minds. If every Palestinian, Iraqi, Afghan and Chechen is not standing up to give his life for ending the oppression and occupation of the lying aggressors, it does not mean that they do not respect those who commit themselves to die for the sake of real freedom: not the freedom that the US has brought to Iraq and Afghanistan. It simply means that they expect their revenge tomorrow.

If Palestinians, Kashmiris and Chechens are given the right to self-determination, and if forces of tyranny are withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan, it would never amount to rewarding terrorism. The UK didn’t reward terrorists when it ended its occupation of the US. Nor all those Americans, who fought against King George and other tyrants from UK, were terrorists.

If we go by the standards promoted by the sick terrorist minds in the US and UK, then we will have to put the struggle for democracy and freedom in Iraq on hold because allowing US and UK to operate in Iraq and install governments of their choice there means the world is rewarding the terrorist who launched this war on false pretexts. First they have to renounce terrorism and then we will see what “legitimate” causes they want to promote with the unprecedented kind of naked aggression.

Hope the repeat tragedy on the pattern of 9/11 that occurred in London will drive home the lesson in Britain and the rest of the world that we are facing terrorism upon terrorism from the double-terrorists. No amount of silence or surrendering our rights to real freedom and self-determination will prevent them from striking at home and abroad with the twin objectives of consolidating police state at home[2] and puppet regimes abroad.

Note:

[1] See http://world.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/16559

[2] See Robert Verkaik, "Clarke set to rush through emergency arrest powers," Independent, July 08, 2005. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article297645.ece


The sick mindset of the double terrorists
 
First of all, let me thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

YamahaR1 said:
What was in it for the US? Bottom line…..protect our national interests and defend our way of life.

How was it achieved by invading Iraq, if it had increased "terrorism" since the invasion - according to all US govt. reports.

YamahaR1 said:
9/11 caused a heightened concern regarding terrorism. As Pres. Bush stated (and I'm paraphrasing), we will not distinguish between terrorists and those countries sponsoring/harboring them.

The attack on Afghanistan's Taliban regime was understandable, as the Taliban was giving shelter to OBL and his group - and most countries in the world supported this move after 9/11, although it should be pointed out that no factual evidences were found for the 9/11 crimes and only circumstantial evidences were used to implicate OBL.

YamahaR1 said:
We can not sit idly back and allow people to attack our homeland either without defending ourselves agaisnt those who threaten our way of life. We did sit idly back for many years and never retaliated. 9/11 was the turning point.

Fair enough. But Iraq had in no way threatened the US, the whole story of WMD was a fairy tale trumped up by Cheney and the neo-cons, even the CIA were pressured by Cheney and his sub-ordinates.

YamahaR1 said:
Saddam was not fully complying with the inspections. Just curious….how many people here have read the 9/11 Commission Report or the WMD Reports? There was much evidence that showed that Saddam continued to pursue WMD (while stockpiles were not found, all subsequent reports showed that Saddam was merely waiting for the inspections to stop and his plans were to reconstitute his WMD program).

Please read this:

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf

and please tell us which of the TV channels you normally watch.

YamahaR1 said:
There had also been a long, documented history of ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda and the terrorist training camps based in Iraq (hence, it had already been a breeding ground for terrorism prior to the start of the war in 2003).

False statement, yes there were minor contact between the two groups, but no evidence of working cooperation. 9/11 has no link with Iraq invasion, but Bush, the blind, was leading the US public - a blind leading the blind, if we can say that.

YamahaR1 said:
Again, all Saddam had to do was allow true and open inspections and this could have all been avoided because it would've cleared the air regarding the suspicions on the WMD. Again, Americans have much better things to do than starting a war for fun. We don't enjoy sending our sons and daughters in harms way for the fun of it. (And, despite what some here think, we also don't torture, kill, rape and pillage for kicks either.)

Agreed, no one goes to war for fun and when history judges Bush for the reasons he went to war, it will not be kind. He should be tried for war-crimes for killing 50-100k innocent Iraqi's in an illegal war and if he is found to be guilty, the US harboring him may also be guilty, just like the Taliban was guilty, if OBL did commit the 9/11 crime. The same goes for Blair and the UK. Will they ever be tried, nooo, because they are man-gods, the leader of other man-gods, whose lives are infinitely more valuable than pesky muslims, in far-away places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

YamahaR1 said:
But, by not complying, Saddam gave the appearance that he had no respect for the UN requests and therefore, was not trustworthy and was a threat to our country.

Quite a stretch, don't you think. This is the danger of pre-emptive strike. In the end, it is might is right. I am strong, I have the power to hit you and you cannot stop me, I think you are a threat, so here goes, Saddam out, 50-100k Iraqi's out, yes we lost 2k, maybe we will loose another 1k, but hey, we can do what we want, because we are the 800 pound gorilla, and we do not care what others think or do. If we see a threat, we will take him out, because we "can" do it.

YamahaR1 said:
Our fear was that not only did Saddam have WMD, but that he would give them to those terrorists who would cause additional harm to US citizens. In the end, knowing that Saddam was only waiting the inspections out to reinstate his WMD program, I think it was best that he was removed. He was a threat and would've always been a threat to many.

Bush and his people succeeded to dupe a large portion of the US population, because they were angry and they wanted to hit back - Bush just found some cooked up reason of WMD to direct the anger and fear towards Saddam and Iraq, and of course Saddam was the fool who never saw what was coming.

YamahaR1 said:
And, I do think the Iraqi people will be better off in a nation where they can control their own destiny. Yes, things are still unstable. This is something that takes times. Humans don't come out of the womb running either. The Iraqis have a fresh start. I pray that the new Iraqi leaders have the wisdom to now make decisions that ensures that the Iraqi people are prosperous and is willing to be a supporter of peace in the world community rather than a hinderance.

Here we go again, the benevolent idea of nation building - never forget the prime directive, never to interfere in other's affairs, because when you change history in your ignorance and arrogance, you take responsibility for the good and bad and it can be a terrible responsibility.

YamahaR1 said:
From the U.S.'s perspective, this is not a war about religion. We do not harbor ill will towards muslim nations or muslims as a group. This is not a war about oil. America is a nation rich in its own right. I think various countries of the world form a symbiotic relationship. We have things that Middle Eastern countries need to survive (materially speaking) and vice versa. Americans are more than willing to purchase oil and have the money to do so. We have no need to steal it or cause war to obtain it.

Here, I agree with you, unlike many of us foolish muslims who do not know enough about the US to know this to be true. But the above being true, the tragedy is that you are led by fools like Bush and his neocons into places like Iraq, where you have killed 50-100k innocent civilians for dubious motives, reasons and benefits to the US.

YamahaR1 said:
Now, many people have stated that the sanctions against Iraq merely hurt the citizens of Iraq, not the Iraqi leadership (and I agree) but it is a non-violent (i.e., non-war) tool used against world leaders for containment. Saddam could not be left unattended after he attacked Kuwait. Containment, in itself, is just as costly (if not more costly) in terms of life and money if analyzed. Please check out this report from the University of Chicago regarding costs of containment. Several pages are data but the first few pages are the meat of the report. Very interesting reading for those who've not considered these costs.
http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/steven.davis/research/War in Iraq versus Containment, Weighing %20the%20Costs%20(March%202003).pdf

Saddam should have been removed when there was a great opportunity, but elder Bush missed it. Sanctions were never effective, it only hurt the people. The link does not work by the way.

YamahaR1 said:
The war in Iraq was first and foremost to get a regime change due to the perceived threat of Saddam and as part of the War on Terror.

Let me see here, now obviously you are a Republican and you have voted for Bush, or am I wrong?

YamahaR1 said:
I disagree that all Iraqis see Americans as a foe. No doubt, there are some who do. Just like there are many people in the U.S. who were against the war. There will always be differences of opinion. In the end, today, each person has the choice for what happens from here on out. Either we can be part of the solution of part of the problem.

Or was it "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

YamahaR1 said:
People who focus on only the negative will continue to do so no matter what positive news is out there. I, on the other hand, am a person who sees a cup as half full rather than half empty. I see hope for a future where the Iraqis can guide their own destiny. While there have been losses, there has also been positive progress.

OK, despite all my sarcastic comments and despite my sadness in seeing your point of view, I am also an optimist like yourself. What has happened has happened, we cannot bring back the dead, nor can we change the past, but we must work towards a future, where all of us can have a more fair and just world and it is never too late to try.
 
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