Hearing the Gospel

[Woodrow]

Let me see if I understand. The Quran says Jesus was given the Gospel. Muslims believe in the Gospel. Muslims have no idea what the actual Gospel is because they believe there is no record of it. Would this be correct?

Jesus was given the Gospel. (the Injeel, not what is called the Gospel now)

Muslims believe in the Gospel (The injeel, the word of God(swt)

Muslims have no idea what the actual Gospel is because they believe there is no record of it. Would this be correct? False, We believe it is the same truth that is in the Qur'an. The record we have is the Qur'an tells us I'sa was given it. What people often quote as the Gospel, is not the Injeel that was given to I'sa. The Injeel was essentialy the same as the Qur'an.

We are told to Believe in the Torah, The zaboor , the Injeel and the Qur'an. However that means what they originaly were and not what they have become.

On a smaller scale the same thing happened earlier The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible, but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah. So that means for a Christian to say they believe in the Bible would be an admission that the Torah changed before it was included in the Bible. If the Torah is true the first five books are false. If the Bible is true the Torah is False, If the Qur'an is true the Bible and the Torah are False (as they stand today)

The Torah, Zabbor, Injeel and the Qur'an should all be stating the same words from God(swt). Today they don't.

If the Qur'an is true as we believe, that means the Torah and the Bible changed.(as they are written today)

If the Bible (as it is written today) is true that means the Torah and the Qur'an are False

If the Torah (as it is written today) is true the Bible and the Qur'an are false.

I personaly have seen sufficient proof to justify my belief that the Qur'an is the True word of God(swt)

 

[dougmusr]

I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

Jesus preached the Gospel or Good News. I have to assume that there was something unique about His message or the Quran would not have made the distinction. In fact, God would have indicated Jesus preached the Quran, especially since Muslims believe it preexisted the Torah and Gospel.

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction?

 

[duskiness]

On a smaller scale the same thing happened earlier The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible, but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah. So that means for a Christian to say they believe in the Bible would be an admission that the Torah changed before it was included in the Bible. If the Torah is true the first five books are false. If the Bible is true the Torah is False, If the Qur'an is true the Bible and the Torah are False (as they stand today)
(...)
If the Bible (as it is written today) is true that means the Torah and the Qur'an are False

i got lost here....
Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?
what is the difference between "First Five Books of the Bible" and "the first five books of the bible"?
Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???
If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.
Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

I just don't get it....
n.

 

[Woodrow]

i got lost here....
Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?
what is the difference between "First Five Books of the Bible" and "the first five books of the bible"?
Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???
If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.
Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

I just don't get it....
n.

Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?

The Christian claim the Bible is true. The Torah as used by the Jews and they do have copies that go back to before Christ has considerable differences in the way it is written in the Bible. They should be identical. But they are not.

Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???

If the Torah as the Jews have it is true then the Torah (first 5 books) as written in the bible are false

If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.

there is no Islamic Torah. We believe the Torah as originaly written no longer exists.

Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

True, but they are not the same. The first 5 books have little resemblance to the Jewish Torah, which is supposed to be the source of the first 5 Books

 

[Woodrow]

I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

Jesus preached the Gospel or Good News. I have to assume that there was something unique about His message or the Quran would not have made the distinction. In fact, God would have indicated Jesus preached the Quran, especially since Muslims believe it preexisted the Torah and Gospel.

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction?

I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

That is only stated in what are called the Gospel today. We do not believe those are the words of God(swt)

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

They is no distinction,

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction

21:91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.


40:15. Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- S P C

15:29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." S P C


17:85. They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

Yusuf Ali's Quran TranslationThere are many more

 

[Woodrow]

I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

That is only stated in what are called the Gospel today. We do not believe those are the words of God(swt)

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

They is no distinction,

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction

21:91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.


40:15. Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- S P C

15:29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." S P C


17:85. They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

Yusuf Ali's Quran TranslationThere are many more

I need to clarify my comment above about there is no distiction about JesusAS). I was thinking in terms of equality among the Prophets. But, there is a distinction about Jesus(as)

43:61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. S P C
43:62. Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed. S P
43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. S P
C

43:64. "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way." S P C
43:65. But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day! S P
43:66. Do they only wait for the Hour - that it should come on them all of a sudden, while they perceive not? S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

 

[Zulkiflim]

I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

Jesus preached the Gospel or Good News. I have to assume that there was something unique about His message or the Quran would not have made the distinction. In fact, God would have indicated Jesus preached the Quran, especially since Muslims believe it preexisted the Torah and Gospel.

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction?

Salaam,

The Uniqueness of Prophet Jesus as birth is nothing in Allah sight.

In the Quran it is written..

Jesus was born oa woman but Allah siad BE and Adam was...

Jesus has parentage,Adam had none..
Which is a gretater miracle?

As for other distinction,those are in your own mind not in Allah or muslims.

As Prophet Jesus himself said,,BY MYSELF I CAN DO NOTHING >.

So all Prophets atribute their strength and miracle DUE to Allah not by themselves..

As for the WORD of Allah,in some cases it is refered to Gabriel and not Allah..

Angels are subservient to ALLAh and always venerate HIM and only HIM..

 

[snakelegs]

i got lost here....
Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?
what is the difference between "First Five Books of the Bible" and "the first five books of the bible"?
Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???
If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.
Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

I just don't get it....
n.

welcome back, duskiness!
the jewish bible is what the christians call "the old testament"
jews do not believe the "new testament"

 

[manaal]

Been Muslim all ny life but was educated in 2 catholic convent schools. So yeah, every morning and afternoon over the P.A. we hear the gospel being read along with the hail marys and our fathers...............

 

[evangel]

On a smaller scale the same thing happened earlier The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible, but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah.

I've been researching this and I can't find any differences, could you show me where they are.

1 Samuel 17:45
Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.

 

[dougmusr]

Been Muslim all ny life but was educated in 2 catholic convent schools. So yeah, every morning and afternoon over the P.A. we hear the gospel being read along with the hail marys and our fathers...............

I would surmise by your comment that you felt the Gospel you heard over the P.A was false. That means you must know the true Gospel. Please share it with us.

 

[Woodrow]

I've been researching this and I can't find any differences, could you show me where they are.

1 Samuel 17:45
Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.

Way back when I was Christian I had many Jewish friends point out how much different the 5 books were from the torah. Let me see if I can find a Torah on line.



Now getting back to the Hebrew Torah, Which is what the Jews follow.

I'll begin with the first word in Genesis: BERESHET

Bereshet is translated, "In the beginning", but when adding the meanings of the individual letters the translation comes out more like this. "In the beginning of the house and inheritance, the only one, of Shaddai (the self sufficient) YHVH it is finished (and good).

As I said there are many differences, I'm getting my sources from Rabbi's. To put in all the differences will take a long time.

 

[Jayda]

...i think it is more important to live the gospel than to just talk about it to other people...

 

[Chuck]

Can you remember everyone who has shared the Gospel with you?

Something seems wrong this question. My mem is not that good remember everyone who has shared Gospel with me.

 

[glo]

Something seems wrong this question. My mem is not that good remember everyone who has shared Gospel with me.

Actually, I agree with you.

I couldn't possibly make a list of all the people I have discussed and shared the Gospel with.

peace.

 

[duskiness]

Let me see if I can find a Torah on line.

here

Now getting back to the Hebrew Torah, Which is what the Jews follow.
I'll begin with the first word in Genesis: BERESHET

Bereshet is translated, "In the beginning", but when adding the meanings of the individual letters the translation comes out more like this. "In the beginning of the house and inheritance, the only one, of Shaddai (the self sufficient) YHVH it is finished (and good).

or maybe:

1 IN THE beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth.

(source above..)
to compare with "christian" Bible:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Woodrow - jewish Torah and first 5 book of christian Bible are/is the same thing.

To‧rah  /ˈtoʊrə, ˈtɔrə; Seph. Heb. toʊˈrɑ; Ashk. Heb. ˈtoʊrə, ˈtɔɪrə/
–noun (sometimes lowercase)
1. the Pentateuch, being the first of the three Jewish divisions of the Old Testament. Compare Tanach.

Pen‧ta‧teuch  /ˈpɛntəˌtuk, -ˌtyuk/
–noun
the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

..still the same...

The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible,

-that's right

but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah.

are you saying that "Torah differ from Torah"?? Torah is Torah

If the Torah is true the first five books are false. If the Bible is true the Torah is False

no. they are the same thing (...i keep repeatnig my self today ) Bible is true, and Torah is just part of it.

The Christian claim the Bible is true. The Torah as used by the Jews and they do have copies that go back to before Christ has considerable differences in the way it is written in the Bible. They should be identical. But they are not.

Jew and Christian use the same Torah/Pentateuch. Different translations (Jew probably don't need translation...)

If the Torah as the Jews have it is true then the Torah (first 5 books) as written in the bible are false

they are both true

The first 5 books have little resemblance to the Jewish Torah, which is supposed to be the source of the first 5 Books

Ok. so Muslim belive that there were other 5 books they call "Torah"?
Jew and Christian don't believe it. There is only one Torah, and no other "pre-Torah". (and again Jewish Torah = 5 first book in christian Bible)

there is no Islamic Torah. We believe the Torah as originaly written no longer exists.

exactly. so Muslim are using term "Torah" in differnt meaning nonmuslim use it...

welcome back, duskiness!
the jewish bible is what the christians call "the old testament"
jews do not believe the "new testament"

hehe...Snakelegs, you really take me for an ignorant i probably didn't make myself clear.
thanks for welcome

ps: islamic or Islamic, jewish or Jewish, christian or Christian :?
n.

 

[Woodrow]

One Problem is that most Christians I find use the JPS Hebrew Torah as being the Standard Torah for the Jews. The JPS was the first five Books of the KJV translated into Hebrew and now that translation is often used as the Hebrew Torah to translate back into English. Naturaly it will be nearly identacl al to the KJV as the KJV was the source.

Sadly I do not know sufficient Hebrew to present what I am trying to say from the view point of the Hebrew Torah and what the Bible translation is. If you wish to find more to either disput me or for your own satisfaction, a Rabbi would be the best source.

I had the differences pointed out to me by Rabbis when I was a Christian trying to discuss the Bible with Jewish friends. Hebrew like Arabic has no exact English Equivalents and the most accurate english translations will come from Hebrew Scholars.

 

[dougmusr]

I had the differences pointed out to me by Rabbis when I was a Christian trying to discuss the Bible with Jewish friends. Hebrew like Arabic has no exact English Equivalents and the most accurate english translations will come from Hebrew Scholars.

What do you mean when you say you were once a Christian?

Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What do you mean when you say you were once a Christian?

I think he means he converted...:? :giggling:

 

[Jayda]

What do you mean when you say you were once a Christian?

Maybe he means he isn't one now...?