Hidden messages through historical texts, confused about Islam

[Woodrow]

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So according to christianity (or rather, paulism), god is 3 dimensional?
like a chair?

Now that is limiting. No point in arguing, it is obvious the poster has no concept of what it means when we say Allaah(swt) has no limitations. Us humans are 3 dimensional and we are very insignificant. Why do some people persist in trying to limit Allaah(swt) by turning him into a Human?

 

[جوري]

You have all taken my analogy too far and are trying to make it in to something literal, beyond the basic analogy!

The islamic 1 god, is not 3 dimensional and denies GOD(YAHWEH) HIS supernatural power and abilities, which go way beyond human understanding!

The 'Islamic God' saved Jesus when he called out to him at night in prayer, unlike the god you pray to which apparently has a self-immolating complex and can't restrain a couple of provincial villagers from killing him!

5:110 : "O 'Jesus the son of Maryam! recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the Unbelievers among them said: `This is nothing but evident magic.'

 

[Predator]

You have all taken my analogy too far and are trying to make it in to something literal, beyond the basic analogy!

The islamic 1 god, is not 3 dimensional and denies GOD(YAHWEH) HIS supernatural power and abilities, which go way beyond human understanding!

Why did God not tell Adam that he was triune god ? Why did god tell the Jews he's one, then change his mind 1000 years later tell Christians he's a trinity? Will the Christian god change his mind again and become 9 in 1 god in the future?

 

[Woodrow]

Why did God not tell Adam that he was triune god ? Why did god tell the Jews he's one, then change his mind 1000 years later tell Christians he's a trinity? Will the Christian god change his mind again and become 9 in 1 god in the future?

I believe the trend for a growing number of Christian Gods began a few hundred years back with the Veneration of Saints and the very high elevation of Mary. Calling Mary the "Mother of God" is getting very close to elevating her to a Godlike status. I think they are just waiting to find a fancy catch phrase that will carry the charisma of Trinity, A quadrangle just does not quite get it. Might have to wait to get 99 parts an enneacontakaienneagon has a nice ring to it and the name can be traced back to Ancient Greek origin. Might take a while to catch on, but sects worshiping a 99 person god should be already appearing.

Let me see it took the early founders of Catholicism about 100 years to decide God(swt) was a composite being. And then a consensus of a Catholic committee to finalize how many were in this composite, being and several splits before it was agreed upon as to who is God. Most of the early Catholics seemed to have felt they were pushing their credibility if they went past a duality. But somewhere along the way they decided it had to be a trinity to stay balanced. There was a bit of a squabble over who should be the third part, Mary was the favorite choice, but an unknown contender named Holy Spirit won the vote. We must come down towards the year 360 to find the doctrine on the Holy Ghost explained both fully and clearly. It is St. Athanasius who does so in his "Letters to Serapion" (P.G., XXVI, col. 525 sq.).

And that folks is how paganism became firmly embedded in Catholicism and eventually spread to all of Christianity

Quite ironic that so many non-Catholic Christians insist on adhering to a Roman Catholic proclamation, while calling Catholicism the "Whxxxre of Babylon"

 

[siam]

....Mary(pbuh) "Mother of God"....as well as something that is called "The Word" which is supposed to be "co-eternal" with God and is also supposed to be Jesus Christ(pbuh), yet is not part of the "trinity".....? So some "trinitarian" Christians cannot make up their minds about the actual number of Gods......?.....

What I don't really get, is why bother with logic-defying mental acrobatics to divide 1 into 3 and call it monotheism (One God)? why not just accept the many Gods/Avatars and be happy---like the Hindus? Its, not as if Christians particularly respect the Torah----they just use it as a kind of "fortune-telling" book that "proves" the events of Jesus Christ(pbuh)....or so it seems....

 

[Woodrow]

You have all taken my analogy too far and are trying to make it in to something literal, beyond the basic analogy!

The islamic 1 god, is not 3 dimensional and denies GOD(YAHWEH) HIS supernatural power and abilities, which go way beyond human understanding!

a very simple law of logic. If an argument/statement can be easily reduced or expanded to the point of ridiculous, the basis of the argument/statement is probably ridiculous.

 

[marwen]

The islamic 1 god, is not 3 dimensional and denies GOD(YAHWEH) HIS supernatural power and abilities, which go way beyond human understanding!

What makes you say that ? The Islamic belief says that Allah (God) is ONE(just one entity, no partial gods in Him) and is UNIQUE. This does not make the assumption that Allah is not multidimensional, or not supernatural.

 

[siam]

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

So, it would seem this "Word" is God and is co-eternal with God and is the real "creator"---therefore God is....?...an observer?
Obviously, someone needs lessons in logic!........

 

[Woodrow]

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

So, it would seem this "Word" is God and is co-eternal with God and is the real "creator"---therefore God is....?...an observer?
Obviously, someone needs lessons in logic!........

Interesting to notice that is from John 1 and was never part of the Jewish teachings. The Author of the book of John 1, is quite interesting. From a Christian Bible study site:

"It should be noted that the problem of determining the author of 1 John is a somewhat different one from the determination of the authorship of 2 and 3 John, because in the case of 1 John the letter is anonymous – no author is specified within the work itself. The only other New Testament letter which makes no reference to the author’s name is the Epistle to the Hebrews. The second and third letters, however, designate the author as “the Elder,” and it has been long debated whether this individual is or is not to be identified with the author of the first letter and/or the Apostle John."

Duh----The council of Nicea accepts an anonymous letter as authentic and ascribes it to John, yet calls books from known authors gnostic and discards them.

 

[questioner8]

a very simple law of logic. If an argument/statement can be easily reduced or expanded to the point of ridiculous, the basis of the argument/statement is probably ridiculous.

You are all looking too closely at the analogy itself, rather than the meaning of it!
It's not a scientific statement!
islam limits GOD/YAHWEH to being unable to take more than 1 form at the same time!

 

[questioner8]

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

So, it would seem this "Word" is God and is co-eternal with God and is the real "creator"---therefore God is....?...an observer?
Obviously, someone needs lessons in logic!........

The Word is 'living/eternal.'

John 1 (Amplified Bible)

John 1

1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.(A) 2He was present originally with God.
3All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
4In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

 

[Woodrow]

You are all looking too closely at the analogy itself, rather than the meaning of it!
It's not a scientific statement!
islam limits GOD/YAHWEH to being unable to take more than 1 form at the same time!

You are giving him human limitations and assume he is required to take on a form. we have no doubt He can take on any form he desires too, but we recognize his power is so great he has no need to take on any form. It is human arrogance that wants to make him have a form. This is man trying to make a god in the the likeness of man. Egotistical arrogance beyond words.

 

[Woodrow]

The Word is 'living/eternal.'

John 1 (Amplified Bible)

John 1

1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.(A) 2He was present originally with God.
3All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
4In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.

Name the actual author/authors of the books of John. Who was it that decided they were the "inspired" word of God(swt). the books you view as being gnostic have a more believable pedigree and chain of authenticity than the books of John have.

 

[tango92]

You are all looking too closely at the analogy itself, rather than the meaning of it!
It's not a scientific statement!
islam limits GOD/YAHWEH to being unable to take more than 1 form at the same time!

tell me can God create something more powerful than himself? no... why are you limiting god?

 

[questioner8]

You are giving him human limitations and assume he is required to take on a form. we have no doubt He can take on any form he desires too, but we recognize his power is so great he has no need to take on any form. It is human arrogance that wants to make him have a form. This is man trying to make a god in the the likeness of man. Egotistical arrogance beyond words.

Where have I claimed that HE(YAHWEH) is required to take on any form?

Where have I claimed that HE(YAHWEH) needs to take on any form?

Where have I stated that anyone wants HIM(YAHWEH) to have any form?

The bible scriptures are telling about what GOD(YAHWEH) chose to do!

Who are you to limit GOD(YAHWEH) to anything?

 

[Ramadhan]

Where have I claimed that HE(YAHWEH) is required to take on any form?

Where have I claimed that HE(YAHWEH) needs to take on any form?

Where have I stated that anyone wants HIM(YAHWEH) to have any form?

The bible scriptures are telling about what GOD(YAHWEH) chose to do!

Who are you to limit GOD(YAHWEH) to anything?

I'd like to see passages from the bible where God declared unambiguously and unequivocally that He split Himself into three forms.

 

[questioner8]

I'd like to see passages from the bible where God declared unambiguously and unequivocally that He split Himself into three forms.

From the following scripture you can see the obvious:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+3:15-17&version=NIV

Matthew 3:15-17 (New International Version)


15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The HOLY SPIRIT descending from heaven, the FATHER speaking from heaven, and the SON JESUS CHRIST on earth!

 

[marwen]

From the following scripture you can see the obvious:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+3:15-17&version=NIV

Matthew 3:15-17 (New International Version)


15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

The HOLY SPIRIT descending from heaven, the FATHER speaking from heaven, and the SON JESUS CHRIST on earth!

The passage you quoted shows the existence of three entities :
- GOD
- The Holy Spirit
- Jesus
(I prefer not to take the literal interpretation of the word Son, I'd rather understand it : SON = BELOVED)

But this passage doesn't say that these 3 entities are the same one. Is there something I didn't understand ?

 

[Ramadhan]

The passage you quoted shows the existence of three entities :
- GOD
- The Holy Spirit
- Jesus
(I prefer not to take the literal interpretation of the word Son, I'd rather understand it : SON = BELOVED)

But this passage doesn't say that these 3 entities are the same one. Is there something I didn't understand ?

Exactly.
Unless you have an overactive imagination and employ twisted logic, there is no way to think that the passages indicate the three entities are the same one.

 

[Woodrow]

Where have I claimed that HE(YAHWEH) is required to take on any form?

Where have I claimed that HE(YAHWEH) needs to take on any form?

Where have I stated that anyone wants HIM(YAHWEH) to have any form?

The bible scriptures are telling about what GOD(YAHWEH) chose to do!

Who are you to limit GOD(YAHWEH) to anything?

We both seem to be in agreement that God(swt) is limitless and all powerful. Where we differ is you see the Trinity as an expression of being limitless, I see it as placing limits on Him.

There is no basis for the Trinity in any of the Monotheistic teachings. This is a concept derived from the wants of man executed through the Errors of Paul and the decisions of Church councils, not a revelation or teaching from God(swt)