I suppose it depends on what you mean by "compatible", "the West" and "Islam" :thankyou:
Hillary Clinton reaches out to Muslims in Indonesia
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I suppose it depends on what you mean by "compatible", "the West" and "Islam" :thankyou:
Uthman
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I just feel that the fundamental values of Islam differ radically from those of 'the west' which can leave young Muslims confused as to who they really are. There is no reason for complete segregation since practising Muslims may still participate in society. However, they can only integrate to a certain extent as they cannot transgress the limits set by Islam. For example, Muslims can still get a job in a western society but they are limited as jobs must be halal and they should be allowed to perform their prayers on time. Many Non-Muslim employers find it outrageous that Muslims can "demand" that they are allowed to leave their job to pray several times a day. The British tabloids pick up on this and make it a million times worse. But I digress. It would make sense therefore that practising Muslims will never be fully assimilated into western culture, but that doesn't mean they will be completely segregated either.
Of course, concerns have been raised in Britain about Islamic 'no-go areas' but I think they would probably be more accurately described as Pakistani or Bangladeshi Ghettos as opposed to Muslim ones.
Uthman
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Indeed! But 'Islamists' according to who? I know the BBC has referred to them as an extreme organisation. If you take a look at their website their aims and methods appear noble. Maybe there is a discrepancy between this and what they do in practice.
HT are non violent, one of the reasons i never joined them as violence although not usually the first answer, if very rarely the last either.
they are considered 'extremist' and 'islamist' because they believe in a khilafate, believe in politically working towards it and are very vocal on this point.
but i dont find it helpful when muslims use the labels of the disbelievers, we should examine their beliefs and actions in accordance with the Quran and sunnah to decide if they extremist or not according to that criteria.
they are considered 'extremist' and 'islamist' because they believe in a khilafate, believe in politically working towards it and are very vocal on this point.
but i dont find it helpful when muslims use the labels of the disbelievers, we should examine their beliefs and actions in accordance with the Quran and sunnah to decide if they extremist or not according to that criteria.
Bear in mind that not all eastern muslims are practicing.
Bear in mind that most eastern countries are dictatorships or authoritarian.
Bear in mind that Rule of Law is an islamic value, something missing in the east but quite evident in the west(except USA from time to time)
Bear in mind that in the West you are more free as a muslim to loby the govt, than you are in places like Egypt. (Unless you want to spend time with the nail removalist)
...ect
No i don't think Islam and the west are polar opposites.
Uthman
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Agreed.
Grace Seeker
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I think you are right, they are not polar opposites. They are not necessarily always going to be harmonious, but they are not two ends of a continuim. Indeed, I suspect that in a truly secular western society it is no more difficult being Muslim than it is to be any other practicing faith, for all faiths will occassionally challenge the status quo, and face ostracisim as a result.
But if some do consider the west and Islam to be incompatible with each other, it makes me think that there is probably less freedom for a non-Muslim person from the west to live in a strict Muslim culture than for the Muslim to live in a western society. Agree or disagree?
Uthman
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I also agree that Islam and the West are not 'polar opposites' but I maintain that their fundamental values are very different. You can be a practising Muslim and still comply fully with the law, but you will still be at odds with Western values. The notion of freedom of speech as an example which, in Britain and America, includes the freedom to insult is a value which the West prides itself upon. Remember the Danish Cartoons incident? I think that probably supports my point.
Another example is the issue of gender interaction. Free mixing of the genders is frowned upon in Islam, yet is an integral part of Western culture. Many Muslims see it as haraam for an unmarried man and a woman to make any contact e.g. shaking hands.
These are just a couple of reasons why I think Islamic values and Western values are incompatible.
Another example is the issue of gender interaction. Free mixing of the genders is frowned upon in Islam, yet is an integral part of Western culture. Many Muslims see it as haraam for an unmarried man and a woman to make any contact e.g. shaking hands.
These are just a couple of reasons why I think Islamic values and Western values are incompatible.
Uthman
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I would probably agree with that suggestion.
zanjabeela
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I'm going to have to largely disagree. Non-Muslims seem to live quite nicely in places like the Malaysia, Indonesia, UAE, KSA (they have their own compounds in which alcohol is allowed, free-mixing is not frowned upon, and I believe I recall reading that the selling of Christmas ornaments are quite a hit in Saudi Arabia around Christmas time), and other Muslim countries that are not under the influence of war. I don't imagine, for example, that living in Egypt or Morocco is a great difficulty for many non-Muslims. Libya or Lebanon might not be as free, understandably. I think it varies from country to country, depending on the prevailing political situation.
But, I also don't know what freedoms you are speaking of that would be restricted.
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Grace Seeker
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To say: "they have their own compounds in which ______ is allowed" sounds a lot more like segregation than freedom to me.
Of course, it may be that people choose to live in self-imposed ghettos or other people like themselves. In that circumstance we shouldn't say that the problem is the willingness of the dominant culture to grant freedom to people, but of those minority group to withdraw from being in contact and communication with the society in which they are living.
I think of a girl who worked as a volunteer at a local hospital. A member of my church was the volunteer coordinator there, and when this girl (who was a Muslim) arrived she was wearing the traditional headscarf. My church member was glad to have her as one of her volunteers, not concerned about her being a Muslim and happy to accommodate any of the issues that were important to this woman's faith as long as it did not impact patient care. I've been told by some, that I would not be equally free to walk down the streets of some cities that were the population is predominately Muslim wearing a cross, carrying my Bible, ans engaging in conversation about my faith with those who asked me about it. Now I know that isn't everywhere, but those are some of the freedoms of personal expression that I am thinking of.
Uthman
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Greetings,
That's true but it should be borne in mind that, although this country has a Christian heritage, the church and state are separate and so the country is ruled by a secular government which doesn't favour any particular religion. Many Muslim countries, on the other hand, are ruled by a religious government where no such separation of 'church and state' exists and, although their laws may not always reflect true Islamic teachings, they do have reason to favour one particular religion over the rest.
Regards
That's true but it should be borne in mind that, although this country has a Christian heritage, the church and state are separate and so the country is ruled by a secular government which doesn't favour any particular religion. Many Muslim countries, on the other hand, are ruled by a religious government where no such separation of 'church and state' exists and, although their laws may not always reflect true Islamic teachings, they do have reason to favour one particular religion over the rest.
Regards
zanjabeela
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Fair enough...except that the purpose of the compound is to allow non-Muslims their cultural freedoms without a side effect on Saudi culture. It's segregation if it's done in a manner akin to apartheid, where the compound would be a ghetto and the residents would have limited access to jobs, benefits, and so on. Such is not the case in countries with compounds: the compounds are not ghettos, self-imposed or otherwise, and the residents have access to some of the best jobs and benefits the country has to offer. Also, compounds are available to expats of Muslim countries too, and neither Muslims nor non-Muslims are required to live inside a compound dwelling...yet, it's a choice that many expats, especially non-Muslims, seems to prefer to utilize, perhaps for the cultural freedoms they allow for.
Regarding ghettos being self-imposed...I don't believe it's reasonable to say that any minority group chooses to "withdraw from the contact and communication with the society in which they are living." Even in a free country, ghettos happen out of circumstances that have to do with finances, access to opportunity, etc. much more than pure choice. No parent decides, "Well, wouldn't it be awesome to bring up my children in a slum where the schools are horrid and drug/gang problems abound." Ghettos cannot be likened to compounds, in any way, shape or form. Not to my mind.
And I think of a woman who was a Muslim, who went to a battered women's shelter that had a Christian philosophy. Her faith was impacted by the people who ran the place, and she did convert to Christianity. At the time, she felt pressured into it, although she is now content with her decision. I know this isn't every Christian organization...but it does happen, indicating that freedom is something found and lost everywhere. Additionally, do you know how common it is for a practicing Muslim woman in the USA to be scolded by a non-Muslim for donning the head-scarf or face veil? It certainly is not be governmental policy...but society is certainly free to pick on my freedom in dressing choices. The Muslim city in which walking down the street wearing a cross...which city was that? Dubai, Kuala Lampur, Cairo or Beirut, it would be accepted, probably without the paternalistic scolding I occasionally get in the US of A. Kabul or Baghdad, perhaps not so accepted...less so to do with governmental policy, I'm sure, than to do with prevailing tensions.
Freedom is not really a zero-sum game in any society. We have some freedoms here that we don't have elsewhere...and they might have some freedoms there that we don't have here.
Are we way off topic here? I'm sorry if we are.
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Depends on which part of the west your talking about really. The dominant culture in places like Europe is very different to places like America.(in term of faith)
disagree. A while back there was this missionary hospital in yemen(i think) and it was under threat from extremists who wanted to c4 the place. The gov't stationed guards and said that it wasn't going to let it close.
I can't say that i know of any similar move in any western country. (note that in some European countries there are (political)parties whose platform is only "no mosques in X city".
And for example there are places in the EU that are worse for you to be a muslim than a Christian in Turkey.
PS. Remember that "The West" isn't a defined word. It means different things to different people.
Grace Seeker
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Getting there, if we aren't already. But it will neither be the first not last time for either of us, I suspect.
I don't think of "ghetto" as having to be synonymous with "slum".
Using that definition, I see even gated communities as a type of ghetto. And I often see people on these boards suggesting that Muslims should intentionally live in such isolation when living in western cultures. I also see some suggest that protestants do the same in certain parts of Europe, though I have no knowledge of that independent of this forum.
This is very true.
I understand your point about prevailing tensions. My daughter (who happens to be a Muslim from Turkey) was living with me in the USA in 2002-2003, less than a year after the destruction of the World Trade Center and when the USA invaded Iraq. I never once saw or heard anyone say something to her about wearing her headscarf, but I also know that know one needed to say anything directly to her, comments were all around her on new broadcasts, in the comments made by late night comedians, and discussions not directed at her but simply general conversation among the public which she of course overheard.
Paradoxically, she was more free to wear her headscarf at our American schools than she was when back home in Turkey.
I buy that as well.
Maybe even what freedoms are important varies not just from country to country or society to society, but from person to person. For me, the freedom to drink alcohol is not something that I value at all. In fact, I might vote to restrict it in certain circumstances. But freedom of speech, assembly, and expression is something I value very much.
But I do understand those who say they see the west and Islam are incompatible because they hold to different standards. Despite my valuing of many western "freedoms", I feel much the same way with regard to values harbored by the culture in which I live that Muslims do. For not only are those value unIslamic, they are decidedly unChristian as well. Thus you hear Christians talk about being in the world but not of the world.
It might be different terminology that Muslims use to express this phenomena, but I expect that the views of practicing Muslims and practicing Christians toward the societies in which they live really isn't all that different.
Pomak: Though I didn't address them, I want say that I appreciate your above comments as well. I hadn't heard about some of the specific instances you shared.
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aadil77
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God, can't the americans leave us alone? they want puppet control over every bloody muslim country. What 'Global issue' does they have there? They need to be told to piss off and mind their own business, we don't need them