Hillary Clinton reaches out to Muslims in Indonesia

[Green_shoes]

Good on her

 

[Green_shoes]

To say: "they have their own compounds in which ______ is allowed" sounds a lot more like segregation than freedom to me.

Of course, it may be that people choose to live in self-imposed ghettos or other people like themselves. In that circumstance we shouldn't say that the problem is the willingness of the dominant culture to grant freedom to people, but of those minority group to withdraw from being in contact and communication with the society in which they are living.

I think of a girl who worked as a volunteer at a local hospital. A member of my church was the volunteer coordinator there, and when this girl (who was a Muslim) arrived she was wearing the traditional headscarf. My church member was glad to have her as one of her volunteers, not concerned about her being a Muslim and happy to accommodate any of the issues that were important to this woman's faith as long as it did not impact patient care. I've been told by some, that I would not be equally free to walk down the streets of some cities that were the population is predominately Muslim wearing a cross, carrying my Bible, ans engaging in conversation about my faith with those who asked me about it. Now I know that isn't everywhere, but those are some of the freedoms of personal expression that I am thinking of.

I'd have to agree with this, there are many muslim countries as a muslim i would hate to live in (for various reasons i do not want to do into because i'm feeling sleep right now) now imagine for a non muslim, it would be very hard to even walk down the street without getting glares from people like they are sort of aliens or worthless people.
in the West some muslims do not appreciate the amount of freedom they have compared with some muslim countries to be honest and anyone who disagree with this is either ignorant of that fact or they are lying to themselves.

 

[zanjabeela]

Getting there, if we aren't already. But it will neither be the first not last time for either of us, I suspect.

Too true!

I don't think of "ghetto" as having to be synonymous with "slum".


Using that definition, I see even gated communities as a type of ghetto. And I often see people on these boards suggesting that Muslims should intentionally live in such isolation when living in western cultures. I also see some suggest that protestants do the same in certain parts of Europe, though I have no knowledge of that independent of this forum.

OK...I see your point with this specific a definition. I live in a city which is almost exclusively Asian cultured (Vietnamese), and while I can see how it's beneficial to them to have such a setup, I don't think I'd encourage it for Muslims. I'm much more of an integrationist, and think that Muslims ought to be able to function at maximum capacity within other people. [/quote]

Paradoxically, she was more free to wear her headscarf at our American schools than she was when back home in Turkey.

Point well taken.

Maybe even what freedoms are important varies not just from country to country or society to society, but from person to person. For me, the freedom to drink alcohol is not something that I value at all. In fact, I might vote to restrict it in certain circumstances. But freedom of speech, assembly, and expression is something I value very much.

But I do understand those who say they see the west and Islam are incompatible because they hold to different standards. Despite my valuing of many western "freedoms", I feel much the same way with regard to values harbored by the culture in which I live that Muslims do. For not only are those value unIslamic, they are decidedly unChristian as well. Thus you hear Christians talk about being in the world but not of the world.

Excellent way of looking at it, although that does pose more complex issues of whose personal idea of freedom is to be considered and whose rejected.

The part about being in the world but not of the world is very similar to the Islamic principle of "Be in this world as a stranger (or traveler)."

It might be different terminology that Muslims use to express this phenomena, but I expect that the views of practicing Muslims and practicing Christians toward the societies in which they live really isn't all that different.

That is very likely.

Thank you for a really respectful and stimulating dialogue. You are as I remember you to be from when you first joined LI

 

[Uthman]

We are off-topic but personally I don't mind. That is the nature of discussion and I like where this discussion is going.

 

[Grace Seeker]

God, can't the americans leave us alone? they want puppet control over every bloody muslim country. What 'Global issue' does they have there? They need to be told to piss off and mind their own business, we don't need them

I think you are being a little naive to think that it is about Islam. America has a history of wanting to have a hand in every country that they can influence (I suspect the USA is not alone in this, just perhaps does so more egregiously than others). Perhaps we do need to be told to mind our own business, but don't think that the interest has to do with Islam as much as it has to do with America's own sense of self-importance and desire to control the world to the supposed benefit of its own ideology.