History: How exactly do 38 soldiers take over a nation?

[Scimitar]

Yeah, Islamist nationalists like him always use the 'victim' card.

Don't you also do the same when you make all these topics about Turkey?

Scimi

 

[Mustafa16]

Don't you also do the same when you make all these topics about Turkey?

Scimi

except in this case my people are an actual victim. who's the victim? Adnan Menderes? He was a dictator....he deserved it. Erdogan? Ok, so he was put in prison for reading a poem insulting Jews. Many countries have anti-defamation laws, and muslims demand those laws for themselves in europe, and even kill people who committ blasphemy (in their own countries OR in europe), and he only was in prison for like, what, a month? now look what he's become. gulenists? who dared to expose, THROUGH THE JUDICIAL PROCESS, Erdogan accepting bribes so his men can send money to iran by the hundreds of millions?
EDIT: Check this out, the referendum after the 1960 coup d'etat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_constitutional_referendum,_1961

 

[Scimitar]

you are really boring me now

 

[Scimitar]

You sound like a victim Mustafa16, the irony is way over your head

 

[Mustafa16]

Insha'Allah the ahl-al-haqq will conquer turkey once more, and have erdogan executed or sentenced to life in prison in either turkish prison or the hague.

 

[anatolian]

you claim "feto" is a terrorist organization. we did not do coup. we did not train PKK. we did not assassinate hrant dink. we did not do those shootings. EU, NATO, US, and German intelligence all say Gulen was not behind coup. Kemal Kilicdaroglu says it was a "controlled coup." He represents 1/4 of voters. Erdogan suppressed state media. Evidence by coup plotters' testimony points to MIT's involvement (Turkish National Intelligence organization). You tried to brainwash me into hating my own people and family. Hulusi Akar (chief of staff) and Hakan Fidan (Intelligence officer) were informed by soldiers and Dogu Perincek ahead of time. There is no free media in Turkey. Erdogan rigged elections. Adil Oksuz works for MIT and disappeared. Turkish people will be punished for their sins against the Gulenist people.

To be honest with you I dont consider Gülen movement as a terrorist organization aka FETO as Erdoğan wants people so to label them. I believe majority of the jamaat members had no idea at all on what was going on. Gülen jamaat is a crypto organization. They are an Islamic religious group/jamaat at first hand but also a secret organization used by CIA. What is the reason behind Gülen's residency in Pensilvania since 1999? He ran from Kemalists but could be welcomed as victorious during the first 10 years of AKP rule. When you were a child all those years, Erdoğan and Gülen were "planning" all the things together. You are just so young to see. Also I never tried to brainwash you to hate anybody let alone your family. You are just assuming too much.

I dont follow the news from mainstream media so their political relations to the goverment is not my concern. Also I can distinguish the events when I get the info regardless of their source. And I encourage you to do same. Now think yourself, why he has been residing in Pensilvania since the last 18 years and why EU, NATO, German intelligency etc. are trying to prove the "innocence" of the jamaat? That brings you to one single point, America. America has been trying to control such kind of "moderate Islamist" movements in the hard Muslim regions like Turkey for long decades. It is called "green zone project" and that was first created by Jimmy Carter in 1977 to control Muslims against the Soviet thread. It just shaped on this way today. AKP was created by America too but Erdoğan had already got out of control. So Gülen jamaat members who had entered to the state/army was the only option to overthrow Erdo.

Now again, I don't call you to hate all Gülenists around you. I just call to you to know the facts, use reasoning and act upon it. Get it?

 

[Mustafa16]

To be honest with you I dont consider Gülen movement as a terrorist organization aka FETO as Erdogan wants people so to label them. I believe majority of the jamaat members had no idea at all on what was going on. Gülen jamaat is a crypto organization. They are an Islamic religious group/jamaat at first hand but also a secret organization used by CIA. What is the reason behind Gülen's residency in Pensilvania since 1999? He ran from Kemalists but could be welcomed as victorious during the first 10 years of AKP rule. When you were a child all those years, Erdogan and Gülen were "planning" all the things together. You are just so young to see. Also I never tried to brainwash you to hate anybody let alone your family. You are just assuming too much.

I dont follow the news from mainstream media so their political relations to the goverment is not my concern. Also I can distinguish the events when I get the info regardless of their source. And I encourage you to do same. Now think yourself, why he has been residing in Pensilvania since the last 18 years and why EU, NATO, German intelligency etc. are trying to prove the "innocence" of the jamaat? That brings you to one single point, America. America has been trying to control such kind of "moderate Islamist" movements in the hard Muslim regions like Turkey for long decades. It is called "green zone project" and that was first created by Jimmy Carter in 1977 to control Muslims against the Soviet thread. It just shaped on this way today. AKP was created by America too but Erdogan had already got out of control. So Gülen jamaat members who had entered to the state/army was the only option to overthrow Erdo.

Now again, I don't call you to hate all Gülenists around you. I just call to you to know the facts, use reasoning and act upon it. Get it?

gulen did not order coup. he went to america for medical treatment, and did not go back because he was too ill to travel, and because he wanted to help spread education to america. i get my media from unbiased sources. you on the other hand, are listening to muslim fundamentalist conspiracy theorist propaganda put out by islamist backwards authrotiarian uneducated morons. there is no green zone project. there is no cia. yes you did call them a terror organization, dont deny it, i have my pm. they prove innocence because mit did the coup. if they are crypto, then any religious organization is crypto, because gulen jamaat is simply a humanitarian project, which third world dictator wanna be sultans dont understand when their members expose his corruption through legal means.

http://www.dw.com/en/turkey-rocked-by-corruption-scandal/a-17324458


now, let's look at what gulenists vs erdogan has accomplished....erdogan...ding ding ding! are you ready? erdogan: censoring the media, civil war and sectarian strife and terrorism in syria, hundreds of millions of dollars sent to iran, including entities like hezbollah, arms shipped to boko haram, arms shipped to al qaeda, erdogan saying "why do you call al nusra terorrists" erodgan arresting 50000 and detaining 150000 including arresting the two co heads of the HDP, and a dozen other lawmakers, and journalists, teachers, professors, etc. including my relatives, and firing 160,000 including my relatives, only one of which was in the army, and wasn't in the coup, toruturing teachers to death, staging a coup. and banning professors and others from leaving the country, killing hundreds of civilians in southeastern turkey, and...ding ding ding! gulen: education, charity, interfaith dialogue.


now let's see WHAT ELSE erodgan did ..... make peace with israel, iran, russia, china, all enemies of islam......doing billions in trade with them......


do you know what the Prophet (PBUH) said about stealing? "If Fatimah (RA) stole, I would cut her hand off myself." when Bilal stole, he turned the country upside down and suddenly said we are CIA. WAKE UP!!!!!!!


I suggest you start using the facts to arrive at the right conclusion, which I have already done...which is that erdogan did the coup....like the reichstagg fire.....which empowered hitler.....and why are you asking me to use reason when I already have used reason, and determined the truth? i went from gulenist to anti-gulenist back to gulenist.


I also suggest you stop being nationalist and start being islamic

 

[anatolian]

gulen did not order coup. he went to america for medical treatment, and did not go back because he was too ill to travel, and because he wanted to help spread education to america. i get my media from unbiased sources. you on the other hand, are listening to muslim fundamentalist conspiracy theorist propaganda put out by islamist backwards authrotiarian uneducated morons. there is no green zone project. there is no cia. yes you did call them a terror organization, dont deny it, i have my pm. they prove innocence because mit did the coup. if they are crypto, then any religious organization is crypto, because gulen jamaat is simply a humanitarian project, which third world dictator wanna be sultans dont understand when their members expose his corruption through legal means.

Now you are making fun of yourself Mustafa. I didn't tell you that I myself regard them as terrorists. I told you that they are regarded as terrorist in Turkey at the moment.

Another question for you to ponder. Why did those Gülenist generals commend to shoot that Russian jet last year?

 

[Mustafa16]

Now you are making fun of yourself Mustafa. I didn't tell you that I myself regard them as terrorists. I told you that they are regarded as terrorist in Turkey at the moment.

Another question for you to ponder. Why did those Gülenist generals commend to shoot that Russian jet last year?

how do you know they were gulenist? how do you know they weren't receiving orders? you may live in turkey but you fail to realize one important aspect of the turkish army...if you dont obey your commander, they dont treat you like a snowflake and give you an honorable discharge....THEY SHOOT YOU! and also, what does them being gulenist have to do with it? that's assuming they're a parallel state, which THEY ARE NOT! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT!!!!!!! Do WE HAVE TO say it!!!!!

now you are making fun of yourself....you deny your own words....and even if that was not what you said, you are accusing them of killing 250 people in turkey when most of the soldiers were kemalist.....according to testimony, IN SPITE OF TORTURE that makes them say they are "gulenist"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail

i know youre 6-9 hours ahead of me, so.....until tomorrow! I shall fight on with the keyboard until the Gulenists are free! and if youll excuse me, im off to quora to debate some more ill-informed turks.

 

[Abz2000]

Mustafa16, you are like an open book......and have been for a long time........one minute you claim to be Muslim, then you claim secularist laws should trump God's laws, then you bash the Muslims (islamists), then you claim that people who seek to establish Islam are morons - and then, after all that, you say "we Muslims" as if you are really a Muslim ashamed of his people. Doesn't it come across as trolling to you?
Tell us how YOU think turkey should be run and I'll tell you what you really are inshaAllah.

 

[Mustafa16]

Mustafa16, you are like an open book......and have been for a long time........one minute you claim to be Muslim, then you claim secularist laws should trump God's laws, then you bash the Muslims (islamists), then you claim that people who seek to establish Islam are morons - and then, after all that, you say "we Muslims" as if you are really a Muslim ashamed of his people. Doesn't it come across as trolling to you?
Tell us how YOU think turkey should be run and I'll tell you what you really are inshaAllah.

I believe in conservative democracy that respects religion, but I believe implementing shariah (as in punishments like chopping off the hand of a thief, executing homosexuals) would be impossible and also impractical, and frankly, Islam never provided a legal system. It gave instructions to the PROPHET OF GOD (PBUH) who received REVELATIONS on how to instruct his people to behave, and all Islam taught was JUSTICE (in terms of a legal code, it also taught tawheed, Messengership, the Day of Judgement, etc.) when you turn the specific rules on specific aspects of life for a specific time like chopping off the hand of a thief and killing homosexuals and stoning adulterers to death, into an entire legal system when it was not intended to be, but rather, expanded upon and improved upon based on Islamic principles, you are creating a monopoly on justice that you call "shariah" while becoming backwards politically and sociologically by trying to implement a "legal system" which is actually the expanded works of scholars anyway! for instance, shariah (classical shariah) says the caliphate is a requirement.....this is up for interpretation......we can not ignore our history, and we can not ignore the de facto reality. the rules on caliphates, succession, etc. were mostly created by scholars after the death of the Prophet (PBUH). So I dont care if youre behading homosexuals, throwing them off buildings, throwing them in prison, or stoning adulterers to death, beheading them, giving them a lethal injection, hanging them, or just throwing them in prison, whatever! the Qur'an calls for justice...not a legal system....shariah is islam, but Islam is not what these muftis have turned into what they call "shariah law" (a legal system), so so long as a society is JUST, and governs by justice, in accordance with the conditions and sociological reality of the times, dependant upon context, im FINE. In America, we have strong institutions that prevent one man from becoming a tyrant, and allow him to be imprisoned without the need for bloodshed....THAT is justice.

 

[Abz2000]

I believe in conservative democracy that respects religion, but I believe implementing shariah (as in punishments like chopping off the hand of a thief, executing homosexuals) would be impossible and also impractical, and frankly, Islam never provided a legal system. It gave instructions to the PROPHET OF GOD (PBUH) who received REVELATIONS on how to instruct his people to behave, and all Islam taught was JUSTICE (in terms of a legal code, it also taught tawheed, Messengership, the Day of Judgement, etc.) when you turn the specific rules on specific aspects of life for a specific time like chopping off the hand of a thief and killing homosexuals and stoning adulterers to death, into an entire legal system when it was not intended to be, but rather, expanded upon and improved upon based on Islamic principles, you are creating a monopoly on justice that you call "shariah" while becoming backwards politically and sociologically by trying to implement a "legal system" which is actually the expanded works of scholars anyway! for instance, shariah (classical shariah) says the caliphate is a requirement.....this is up for interpretation......we can not ignore our history, and we can not ignore the de facto reality. the rules on caliphates, succession, etc. were mostly created by scholars after the death of the Prophet (PBUH). So I dont care if youre behading homosexuals, throwing them off buildings, throwing them in prison, or stoning adulterers to death, beheading them, giving them a lethal injection, hanging them, or just throwing them in prison, whatever! the Qur'an calls for justice...not a legal system....shariah is islam, but Islam is not what these muftis have turned into what they call "shariah law" (a legal system), so so long as a society is JUST, and governs by justice, in accordance with the conditions and sociological reality of the times, dependant upon context, im FINE. In America, we have strong institutions that prevent one man from becoming a tyrant, and allow him to be imprisoned without the need for bloodshed....THAT is justice.

I am uncertain as to whether you are purposefully ignoring the facts or just plain "unaware".
The one who does not judge according to what Allah has revealed is a kaafir and a faasiq.

Sharia law is run and constantly checked via consultation by just, knowledgeable, and wise members of the community under a just Muslim caliph -who are well versed in the commands of Allah and His final messenger Muhammad and are also up to date with the condition of the generation they administer to. Contrary to your understanding of it, it relates to the whole spheres of personal and community living and is required in a civilized society in order to judge by a stable and common standard applicable to all. It does not only apply to -and has not been designed only for - the very negligible section of criminals in an Islamic society who comprise afraction of a percentage of the entire community - and is therefore insulting to continually parrot the secularist media's stereotypical description of it by mentioning the punishments in absence of the vast majority of it's application. Throwing unrepentant homosexuals off buildings is not prescribed in the Quran by Allah or in the narrations attributed to His messenger and could be a state of emergency method chosen for it's attention grabbing capability by individuals who urgently wanted to uproot a shameful crime they didn't want to see in society and hoped to chase westwards. Or it could be a direct response to the actions of secularist puppet governments employed by the West who were using such methods of assassination over the few years before the recent events.

The Caliphate is directly and unambiguously translated as Presidency. Khalf-precede-follow-behind, and is the method by which the community of Muslims elect their leader - it has taken place by various methods in the history of Islam and the best methods in the situation are to be adopted seeking Allah's good pleasure.

In America you have a false, unjust and hypocritical system which can be bent at will by those with political and financial clout, with the most corrupt having the most clout. and the prison system is the most concentrated in the world in terms of ratio between unincarcerated and incarcerated. The fact that illegal assassinations by your government according to your own laws are rife and that other countries are used to circumvent laws that your government claims are just is a clear example of the instability of those laws, and the fact that you have made a criminal gambling baron and hotel pimp - Donald trump your supreme commander and executive judge is telling of your intellectual situation.

So please do some research and see what is required for one to claim to be Muslim since an obvious evidence is that Zakah is a pillar of Islam along with shahadah, salah, fasting, and pilgrimage, and if a government does not implement them they are not Muslim but faasiq and kaafir, and if a person claims that they do not need to be implemented and is at peace with their government in not doing so then that person is also a faasiq and a kaafir, and if they attempt to claim that they are still Muslim, they are either jaahil or munaafiq.

I hope I was clear and concise in my response.

 

[Mustafa16]

I am uncertain as to whether you are purposefully ignoring the facts or just plain "unaware".
The one who does not judge according to what Allah has revealed is a kaafir and a faasiq.

Sharia law is run and constantly checked via consultation by just, knowledgeable, and wise members of the community under a just Muslim caliph -who are well versed in the commands of Allah and His final messenger Muhammad and are also up to date with the condition of the generation they administer to. Contrary to your understanding of it, it relates to the whole spheres of personal and community living and is required in a civilized society in order to judge by a stable and common standard applicable to all. It does not only apply to -and has not been designed only for - the very negligible section of criminals in an Islamic society who comprise afraction of a percentage of the entire community - and is therefore insulting to continually parrot the secularist media's stereotypical description of it by mentioning the punishments in absence of the vast majority of it's application. Throwing unrepentant homosexuals off buildings is not prescribed in the Quran by Allah or in the narrations attributed to His messenger and could be a state of emergency method chosen for it's attention grabbing capability by individuals who urgently wanted to uproot a shameful crime they didn't want to see in society and hoped to chase westwards. Or it could be a direct response to the actions of secularist puppet governments employed by the West who were using such methods of assassination over the few years before the recent events.

The Caliphate is directly and unambiguously translated as Presidency. Khalf-precede-follow-behind, and is the method by which the community of Muslims elect their leader - it has taken place by various methods in the history of Islam and the best methods in the situation are to be adopted seeking Allah's good pleasure.

In America you have a false, unjust and hypocritical system which can be bent at will by those with political and financial clout, with the most corrupt having the most clout. and the prison system is the most concentrated in the world in terms of ratio between unincarcerated and incarcerated. The fact that illegal assassinations by your government according to your own laws are rife and that other countries are used to circumvent laws that your government claims are just is a clear example of the instability of those laws, and the fact that you have made a criminal gambling baron and hotel pimp - Donald trump your supreme commander and executive judge is telling of your intellectual situation.

So please do some research and see what is required for one to claim to be Muslim since an obvious evidence is that Zakah is a pillar of Islam along with shahadah, salah, fasting, and pilgrimage, and if a government does not implement them they are not Muslim but faasiq and kaafir, and if a person claims that they do not need to be implemented and is at peace with their government in not doing so then that person is also a faasiq and a kaafir, and if they attempt to claim that they are still Muslim, they are either jaahil or munaafiq.

I hope I was clear and concise in my response.

Do you even follow American politics? Do you have any idea how much trouble Trump is in right now? Did you know that he got elected with Russian interference, and that is part of the reason why he is in trouble? And as for prison incarceration, that can be reformed, but under an undemocratic regime, nothing gets done properly. In a free society, people with the willpower and activism can change things. And look at Scandinavia! They're even better than America! Democracy is not the problem, it's the lack of it. There is far more to democracy than the ballot box, the banks, and the "pornography." America is not even the most democratic nation in the world by my standards. Look at Canada, or Scandinavia! Or other western nations! How they treat their citizens! And yes, occasionally a buffoon or crook gets elected, but they endup getting into trouble....haven't you heard of the Watergate Scandal that led to the downfall of President Nixon? And the current crisis which could cause the downfall of Trump? And yes, someone who does not rule by the law of Allah is not Muslim, but it is up for interpretation what laws you are talking about, what fiqh, what category of shariah, what category of character and conduct, have you ever considered that Allah is saying that whosoever does not implement the religion of Islam (civil Islam) and justice in accordance with Islamic morality is in trouble in the Hereafter? Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to create a caliphate? The closest we got to was ISIS, and they are a crooked gang of criminals......and they are having their butts handed to them right now.....they are LOSING and WILL LOSE! The whole Muslim ummah is against them! Even other groups like al qaeda, al shabab, etc......

 

[Abz2000]

You just need to compare your last two posts to see that they don't merit the time or effort to draft a response.
They respond to each other with a few bits added - which I'm convinced that if I spent another 20 minutes clarifying on this 4 inch screen, would receive another similar "yeah but .... ..... .... " response.
Please take the time to compare your posts - since we are expected by Allah to assist each other in good, learning, justice, positive advancement....and not in incessant unnecessary argument.
Still - I believe the whole forum gained, and wisdom was increased manifold - along with the increased ability to recognise saboteurs. Jzk

 

[Scimitar]

except in this case my people are an actual victim. who's the victim?

And there is no bigger victim than a confused and irate 17 year old Turk, basically you mustafa.

You flip flop between Islam and gulenism and God knows what else - you are inconsisten and totally unable to fathom or glean any reality from the nonsense politicking you think you are representing in your childish and arrogant ways - you are a victim unto yourself - confused and cursed by his own hand.

Scimi