Hitler the Devout Christian

[Bittersteel]

I do believe in holocoust event, my grandfather serve the royal british army. He had visited the death camp, actually help the victims. He have photo of his troops taken togather in concentration camp located in germany....Hitler is devil, racist and fascist man...

I too believe it.It DID happen.funny thing....where did your family come from?

 

[akulion]

Well Hitler was just being a Devout Christian and following what the Bible says...

If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews.
-Jesus in John 18:36 [NRSV]

Of course Hitler lived in this world and, indeed, his followers fought for him against the Jews.

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
-Matthew 23:33

Hitler took Jesus to heart when he said:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 [Baynes]

 

[Malsidabym]

After all Jesus died for his sins too didnt he? ;D

Thus according to Christianity HITLER IS SAVED - HALELUUELA!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Oh dear....where are the Christian memebers to clear this up? ;D

Clearly these posts and a few others in this thread were for no other purpose than to mock both christians and thier religion. Personally I am not offended, but I have noticed the obvious hypocrisy presented here. When other members even hint at something that might seem like a criticism of islam, or even merely asking honest questions about islam, many of these very mockers are the first to be offended and complain about what they perceive as disrespect for islam. Yet, here are the very same members openly mocking other members and thier beliefs. A little bit hypocritical I think. Also it is sin against islam.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
“The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely or speak rudely.” Clearly mocking others is both slander and rude speaking. I am sure there will be some negative responses to this post as these hypocrites have also proven themselves unable to accept when someone points out the truth. But the saying by the prophet does not say ".......speak obscenely or speak rudely - except when a kafir has pointed out that you are already being rude." This kind of behavior leads nonmuslims to believe that muslims are rude, and does nothing to help islam. Fortunately for me, I know a good lot of polite muslims in this forum, and am aware that the rude mockers are youngsters that have not yet matured. I have respect for the good members of this forum and will not mock or disrespect thier religion.
Anyway, greetings Hana_aku. I think I can help with your understanding. You said,

Well, the problem is this: Christians have denied that Hitler was a Christian. They claim he was an athiest so he will go to Hell. However, he WAS a Christian, who believed that Jesus, pbuh, was his saviour....and according to Christianity, that's enough to enter heaven because Jesus paid the penalty for sins.

I don't deny Hitler was a christian or not, I never met him, he may very well have been. It is the part where you say,

who believed that Jesus, pbuh, was his saviour....and according to Christianity, that's enough to enter heaven

that is not completely right. Belief in Jesus as your savior is not enough, it does not give you a free pass. Some christians may mistakenly believe this, but it is wrong. A person must also repent ones sins, and with the intention of not repeating the same sins again. Also that person must accept God's will in thier life, and follow God, and lead others by example. Sadly, just as in islam, many do a poor job of leading by example. Anyway, there is no easy ride, as some would try to make you believe. So Hitler, even if he were a praticing christian, would have had little chance of seeing heaven. But, according the Bible, even Hitler would have a chance. If he were to repent, and be truly remorseful (not just trying to save his butt from hell), and truly sorry for what he had done, and accepted god in his heart, he too could go to heaven. God is forgiving to all of mankind, even Hitler.
Having said that, not that I have the right to judge anyone, but I doubt very much that we will be seeing Hitler in heaven.

He's proving what Christianity has claimed was false.

I am sorry sister, but I must disagree here. If Hitler were a christian that would not prove that it's teachings were wrong anymore than any similiar accusations against a terrorist that also happened to be a muslim. It is the same as what many of you have said many times in these forums, about judge the person, not the religion. Many muslims(just as many christians) have committed evil acts, but that does not prove that islam is evil, only the man. Some would say"but then he is not a true muslim", and I am sure that is true. And Hitler, even if he were a practicing christian, could not have been a true christian in his heart.
If islam truly is a religion of peace, that teaches not to harm others, and to be humble, then islam and christianity have very similiar values. The problem is, many muslims and christians are too proud, too rude, and full of anger and hate. We truly are not living as god wants. We are men, we all sin. Peace to all.

 

[akulion]

I must applaud you Malsidabym for you are the first Christian I have heard say that if you believe in Jesus it dosent necessarily mean you will go to heaven or be saved

However one thing to note is that Hitler was highly influenced by the Christian Doctrine as mentioned in my above post if you read it.

It is something to think about deeply because:

- It is the same doctrine with which the Church used to justify killing women as "witches"

- It is the same doctrine with which the church used to justify killing of deniers of jesus as "blasphemers"

- It is the same doctrine with which the church used to justify the killing of scientists as "heritics"

It is another fact altogether that the Church keeps changing Christianity to cover up the atrocities commited by the Church and its supporters in the past. But we cannot turn a blind eye to it.


Some questions which arise:

-Why would the Church support Hitler in the first place including the Vatican at that time?

-Why would the Church support the atrocities that went on in the middle ages?

-Why would the word of God need to be changed so that it dosent seem so harsh any more?

- why does the Church need to keep ammending the bible over and over and over through out history?

These are questions which are "easily" dismissed by Christians usually-- but really WHY?

Is faith so useless that we cannot ask these important questions?
Has the Church become so powerful that it can get away with doing anyting to the Christian faith?

It just never ceases to astonish me how Christians can sit there and watch the church tear shreads out of the bible over the centuries..bit by bit by bit...

 

[Issa]

Salam Alaikum:

No they will say he is NOT going to heaven, but they say it's because he wasn't Christian. He most definitely WAS Christian, and according to their teachings, his belief in Jesus as the saviour means he has a free ticket to Heaven.

However, no Christian will be able to explain why a believing Christian brother, like Hitler, will not enter heaven. They will just tell you "he won't", but it goes against what they teach. :rollseyes

Wasalam
Hana

,

No, sister. He can't just profess Jesus as his savoir. He would have had to repent and be sorry for all that he did. He didn't (repent) and wasn't(sorry) so he will not go to heaven. I was a Christian and that isn't what we were taught. Of course, some people like to think that is what happens and they talk themselves into believing there is no accountability but that isn't what Christianity says.
Everyone knows of someone(maybe not personally) who thinks that just because they are Muslim, Jew, or Christian they will go to heaven. Am I right?

 

[Malsidabym]

Is faith so useless that we cannot ask these important questions?

We should ask these questions, we must ask these kind of questions, of whatever we choose to follow.
I will try to respond the best I can, but please keep in mind that my knowledge is poor at best.

- It is the same doctrine with which the Church used to justify killing women as "witches"

Yup, pretty sick. I agree. I would add though, the church has been corrupted over the years by politics and power. There is no justifying this of course, it is just the nature of man. There were power struggles within the church, as some believed it better to focus on the new testament and the teachings of Jesus, who taught love and peace. Others were of a more puritan, follow the old testament way of thinking, and it also happened that these were the ones who won the power struggles and quickly silenced the others. The natural result was a branching off into seperate denominations depending on way of thinking, much the way as has happened in islam. The church is run by men who often do not follow the teachings of Jesus, much as men in islam often do not follow the teachings of Muhammed. There are examples of muslim clerics ordering the killing of people as well, the same killings that many muslims in hind sight have said was not right.

- It is the same doctrine with which the church used to justify killing of deniers of jesus as "blasphemers"

True. But once again, muslims have done this as well. It doesn't mean it's ok, it is wrong either way.

It is another fact altogether that the Church keeps changing Christianity to cover up the atrocities commited by the Church and its supporters in the past.

Here it gets a little vague for me, "the Church" that is. I am not sure who the church is, I assume you mean christians in general. And quite frankley I can't dispute the changes you are implying because I don't know which ones you are thinking about specifically. The changes probably took place, but maybe not for the reasons you believe, or maybe so, I don't know without specific changes mentioned.
I will say that like the Sunni, Shiite, Druze, Ahmadiyya, and other branches of islam, there have been changes in christianity that have created different branches. It is true that some of these branches would like to cover up the sins of the past, while others would not. Islam as you are likely aware, has not been without it's changes as well. And indeed some branches of muslims have had more sins than others, just as christians.

-Why would the Church support Hitler in the first place including the Vatican at that time?

I am sure not all supported hitler, but it seems that the vatican would have supported hitler because Italy was a member of the Tripartite Pact along with Germany and Japan.

-Why would the Church support the atrocities that went on in the middle ages?

I don't know which ones you are refering to.

-Why would the word of God need to be changed so that it dosent seem so harsh any more?

I am not sure if this has happened, but I am aware that there are different versions of the Bible. Theere are some versions that are a little easier to understand for people who have a hard time with the old english translations. The verses are the same, just using "easier" words. There are no actual content changes. There have been additions though, as new scroll translations became available in past centuries,ie. Dead Sea Scrolls.

These are questions which are "easily" dismissed by Christians usually-- but really WHY?

I would prefer to not dismiss important questions.

Has the Church become so powerful that it can get away with doing anyting to the Christian faith?

Yes and no. To the practicing (routine-like) christian perhaps, but to a christian with a real hunger for truth, and real faith - never! Can anything so easily affect a true muslims faith? I assume your answer will also be no.

It just never ceases to astonish me how Christians can sit there and watch the church tear shreads out of the bible over the centuries..bit by bit by bit...

There is no appropriate response I can give you for this, as I don't really know what is being said. I think the assumption would be that to understand this statement, I would have had to agree with all previous statements, I am not sure I do. I hope I have been some help Akulion, Peace to you.

 

[Bittersteel]

religions have always been misinterpreted by corrupt people to gain themselves power and money and for greed.

 

[Malsidabym]

religions have always been misinterpreted by corrupt people to gain themselves power and money and for greed.

sad, but very, very true.

 

[mahdisoldier19]

That is very very very true

 

[akulion]

Dear Malsidabym

You are a good man, and I say this because you not only answer logically but truthfully as well.

As for the Church being responsible for atrocities everyone knows that they supported them. In 1998 (I believe) the pope issued a formal apology to the jews over WW2 that they had supported Hitler's cause. It may be very sad to see such thing happening but realy we have to question the authority of the Church (Vatican).

In the Era of Barbarosa the holy roman Emperor (self instated - also known as the Black Pope), he had all the non supportive members of the Vatican killed including the Pope and had instated himself the Pope. Yet the Christian Europe followed him and saw this as "Gods Man". Its just very strange to me personally that till date majority Christians take the Vatican as an Authority in religious rulings and the pope is held as "unchallengeable authority"

I will give you one recent example of the Church's mischeif in literally changing the bible! You may find this shocking but it is only one example of the many changes they have done over the centuries!

This Article was Published n the Chicago Tribune, but I have also provided other sources for you to read:

Vatican theologians this week have been wrestling with limbo. Archbishop William Levada, the San Francisco prelate who earlier this year became the Vatican's guardian of doctrinal orthodoxy, told Pope Benedict XVI and a Vatican panel of theologians that a document on the issue might be published soon.

Catholics long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven. Theologians have taught that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo.

"In today's season of cultural relativism and religious pluralism, the number of non-baptized babies is increasing considerably," Levada said. "In this situation, the paths to reach the way of salvation appear ever more complex and problematic," he said.

----Sources----
- The Scotsman - Scotlands National Newspaper
- Chicago Tribune - No More Limbo
- World Views Daily Christian News
- Philly Blog
- Catholic News Service

Can the Vatican really close limbo? If they can maybe it is they who determine who actually gets into heaven and hell. Or maybe the Vatican has no idea what happens to you when you die.

My Hitler the Devout Christian article was aimed at causing 2 points to emerge:
- Validity of the Church's influence on Christianity
- Terrorism why only Pinned on Muslims when Hitler was totally motivated by the Bible?

So you see take this not as a personal attack of any sort - but it is aimed at opening peoples eyes s they start asking questions WHY!

And we must - because we can not afford to hand over ourselves to institutes blindly.

I as a Muslim actively resist parties who come to me with their "agendas" trying to recruit me - to make me shia or sunni or sufi etc etc I say NO - NO MAN or NO GROUP has authority over Gods word! God is God and he has not appointed anyone Authority except the Prophets to tell people HOW to follow.
That is why I believe in the Bible it says,
- NO ONE comes to the father EXCEPT through ME!
That is why in the Quran it says :
- Obey Allah AND HIS APOSTLE"; but if they turn back Allah loveth not those who reject Faith

Because the Prophets were the way and the light to the "Father" God.
It was not Paul
It was not Mathew
It was not Osama
It was not Wahab
No
It was Moses!
It was Jesus!
It was Mohammed!

The Church and even in the Muslim world certain groups and organizations want to mislead people into believeing it is THEY who are the way and it is THEY who are appointed special powers and authority by God.

But I say NAY!
For I am a servant of God!

So I hope that you will also think carefully about these issues and question why the church (vatican) is always doing these changes?
another example: Homosexuality changes recently in the Bible.

But all that being said - also note that I do not deny that indeed there are also Christians who try very hard to follow the bible properly and not change it.
But alas it seems the Vatican overshadows most decisions in the Christian world - from past to present and probably in the future too ffended:

 

[Anette]

Hitler may be Christian and he may not. But one thing is for sure; his main purpose was not to make a Christian state or something like that. Every instance that he could use for getting his race biological state with the Arian people - he would use. When Russia could help him not fighting at two fronts he made an agreement with them and then he went after them after a while because in his eyes they were less human then the Arian people. The same with Christianity – as long it served his purpose he would use it.

He did have some priest by his side, at least the priest that obeyed his will and preached about the Arian people - the other ones he sent the same way as the other one he wanted to loose.

Christmas you may have without have to be Christian it has become more of a culture thing then a Christian holiday.

He was a lunatic whether he was Christian or not but he was no lunatic who wanted a Christian state but a state with long, tall, white, blue eyed people with pure and the right blood - as I say a complete lunatic that used all power to try to get to his goal, even the ones representing the church. Or well, at least them he did not have to burn in the gas chambers because they did not want to preach his word in the church.

 

[akulion]

Please do not take this as an attack on Christianity

I am infact wanting 2 points to come up through this post:

- Validity of the Church's influence on Christianity (since the Vatican Supported both Hitler as well as Mussoloni)

- Terrorism why only Pinned on Muslims when Hitler was totally motivated by the Bible?

Things which indeed are something to think about!

 

[Anette]

Please do not take this as an attack on Christianity

I am infact wanting 2 points to come up through this post:

- Validity of the Church's influence on Christianity (since the Vatican Supported both Hitler as well as Mussoloni)

- Terrorism why only Pinned on Muslims when Hitler was totally motivated by the Bible?

Things which indeed are something to think about!

I'm sad to say but the church have always been a target for people with to much will of getting power for their own purpose. This has nothing with Christianity it is wrong people at wrong place. The Bible does not say to their priest that they should support lunatics. It is more of saving their own skin under pressure.

I cannot the Bible by heart but I would be very surprised if the Bible said that we should have an Arian overstate in the world. Hitler was not totally motivated by the Bible but with his maniac idea about a race biological state of "over-humans". If he could get people to believe in his ideas he would proudly present himself as a true Christian as long it served his purpose.

But, I get your point. There are more people in this world that should be called terrorists like they do as soon as a Muslim is involved in something. Why should it always be blamed on religion when it comes to Muslims and never at other points? Like the crusaders, there you have real Christian terrorist. A bunch aristocratic young rascal, to noble to work but fight is all right and then they had to have a purpose – the religion. This is a historical example on Christian terrorists - today we have others.

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

Brother Issa and Malsidabym:

I apologiize for the late response to your post.

Actually, as a former Christian myself, I can say you are right in that there is more to being saved than just accepting Jesus as the saviour. You're absolutely correct. However, that being said, you don't know what another Christian has repented for or when or if he's been forgiven. Jesus had already paid the price of sin....so there is no punishment on Hitler for what he did if he repented (something only he and God know). And, if you are a true Christian, you cannot judge him. So, if he did indeed repent, according to Christian doctrine, his free ticket was waiting at the Gates of Heaven and he will never be held accountable for the atrocities he committed.

Oh, and Malsidabym (that's hard to type :rollseyes ), I wasn't implying that because Hitler followed christianity that it proved Christianity was false. Sorry, I wasn't clear on that point. When I said Akulion was proving what christianity said was false....I was referring to their denial that Hitler was Christian. As we can see, he most definitely was a Christian. You may say he didn't act like one....and for sure I would agree....but that doesn't change the fact he used Christian doctrine, attended church regularly, etc., and it doesn't change the fact that if he accepted Jesus as his saviour (and repented), he will enter heaven along with the Pope, Mother Theresa, etc.

I hope that was a bit more clear.

Salam Alaikum and Peace,
Hana

 

[akulion]

Anette we must be asking questions as to why the Church (Vatican) has so much power?

They just threw out Limbo just like that? On whose authority? Especially since seeing that it is part of the Bible and Christian faith.

They threw out the notion of condemnation of homosexuality? On whose authority?

These are changes we are seeing in our generation in front of our eyes!

who knows that the past generations of the Vatican have done.

and who knows that the generation 100 years from now will recieve?

The Church in my true understanding and belief is misguiding people and manupilating the Christian people and faith for its own purposes.

As responsible people I believe all Christians must stand up and question the infallability of the Church and Pope!

 

[Anette]

Anette we must be asking questions as to why the Church (Vatican) has so much power?

They just threw out Limbo just like that? On whose authority? Especially since seeing that it is part of the Bible and Christian faith.

They threw out the notion of condemnation of homosexuality? On whose authority?

These are changes we are seeing in our generation in front of our eyes!

who knows that the past generations of the Vatican have done.

and who knows that the generation 100 years from now will recieve?

The Church in my true understanding and belief is misguiding people and manupilating the Christian people and faith for its own purposes.

As responsible people I believe all Christians must stand up and question the infallability of the Church and Pope!

I am not a Catholic so I have not so much to say about the Pope and the Vatican. The Church I know is not the Church you describing here.

 

[Malsidabym]

They threw out the notion of condemnation of homosexuality? On whose authority?

I am not catholic, and don't really follow what the church does, but I am pretty sure that this didn't happen. I know that there is one denomination (sect) that has become tolerant toward homosexuality, but it was my understanding that the majority(if not, all the rest), have not changed thier view that homosexuality is wrong and against God's will.

 

[jalo]

Anette we must be asking questions as to why the Church (Vatican) has so much power?


I am not Catholic, but my understanding of the the vatican and the pope is that the vatican, although in Rome is an independant state and not ruled by Italy, but governed by its own Cardinals etc., The pope is believed by catholics to be Gods representetive on earth, therefore is able to change rules and bring out new ones, as he is head of the catholic church.
The non catholic christians do not believe this about the pope, their head is God himself. They also have many different views, e.g. limbo, and babies being born in sin being but two of the differences.
I know this does'nt answer all the questions, but I hope it clarifies one or two points.

May Allah use his power to heal this divided world.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Interesting thread here, but I'm surprised because I thought it was common knowledge that Hitler was a Christian.

Here's a book on the question of Pius XII's complicity with the Nazis:

Hitler's Pope - John Cornwell

It's obviously deeply controversial - here's one that opposes the negative view of Pius XII:
The Myth of Hitler's Pope - David G. Dalin

That second one should apparently "inspire conservative Christians, and sound a warning about the deep roots of Islamofascism", so I'm suspicious already.

The controversy continues on Wikipedia:
Pope Pius XII

Peace