Greetings Alpha Dude,
Thank you for that strong and clear statement of your views.
With all due respect, why do keep insisting on rephrasing the same redundant question?
I suppose because I believe that children should be free to decide these things for themselves.
See the similarities between this question and the one you posed now?
Well, there are two different questions here:
1. Why not let children make up their own minds?
2. What's wrong with questioning your religion?
You've answered the first in a way that is acceptable to you; I don't think you've answered the second.
It all boils down to the fact that as muslims our sole purpose is to worship Allah. Let me write that again, with capital letters and bold font so that you do not miss it - as it is an important fact that you must understand in order to respect our beliefs.
I do respect your beliefs. I just don't agree with them, that's all.
Having read this statement, tell me do you honestly think that a person who has submitted to the will of Allah in it's entirety and has chosen to listen to his commands as laid out by the Quran, would he let, say a son of his whom he dearly loves get lead astray from the correct path?
I accept that believers are sincere about their beliefs. However, these are beliefs we are talking about. If a Muslim strongly believes that Islam is the correct way, and that truth stands out clearly from error, then surely the Muslim parent has nothing to worry about, and their child will naturally adopt Islam through their own decision.
I can't say that he would. He would only do so if he did'nt have faith in his religion to begin with!
I think this paranoia shows uncertainty of faith, rather than conviction.
"Brainwashing"? I can't believe you wrote that statement.
It is quite obvious that you consider all religions as rubbish, and thus used such a harsh term against them. But did you have to?
I'm afraid so. I apologise if you find my use of this word offensive - that is not my intention.
This is an issue that I feel strongly about, as a teacher in the public education system, and as someone who endured what I can only describe as brainwashing at a Catholic school from the age of nine.
Getting familiar with matters of theology is something that requires careful consideration, and this cannot be expected of a young child. I've seen people (some on this forum, in fact) who have decided on their religion, and who only later discover many of the things that they are expected to believe. This is why I made the comparison to joining a political party. I believe that a similar level of complexity is involved.
I agree though, schools should not be used as a platform to brainwash children. Children should not be shown pictures of gay families, which effectively show homosexuality as normal.
What does the word 'normal' mean?
These pictures that you speak of, as far as I know, make no moral pronouncement on gay families. They simply attest to the fact that such families exist. Do you think that this information should be withheld from children?
(I'll restate at this point that while I disagree with sex education being given to five-year olds, unless family circumstances dictate, I do not disagree in principle with children older than that being educated about the existence of gay people.)
Just picture it, having seen such a thing a child leaves school with the impression that he has to make a choice, a choice later on in his life that he can either be gay or can have a female partner. Before you comment on the implausibility of this scenario, remember that this is a young child we are talking about - a child that probably does'nt like girls because they have "cooties"
.
As to whether it's a choice, the jury is still out on that. Some people do seem to have 'natural' homosexual inclinations, though.
The fact also that he gained this impression in school of all places, a place that is traditionaly associated with the gaining of knowledge plays a big role. Do you not see how this can be considered brainwashing?
No, as long as no moral pronouncement is given. The schools are not saying "this is a good thing; this is the way you should be", they are simply acknowledging and explaining that gay people exist. Does this not count as knowledge for some reason?
You only think like this because you do not believe in a religion. That is why this whole issue is perplexing for you. In one of your previous posts you likened religion to a political party, again born out of the fact that you do not believe in a religion.
I don't think so. I've been told that Muslims are encouraged to examine their religion with logical rigour, and to make sure that it makes absolute sense for them. I have to say, this emphasis on logic and rationality is one of the things I most admire in Islam.
Have I been misled?
Having said that, I assume that you would probably hold the opinon that I have been indoctrinated at an early age and that is the reason I hold the view that I do, no?
I don't know. For all I know you could be a revert - you may have been brought up in another way of life.
But I would say that you never were taught the islamic religion as a child therefore you do not understand the truth.
I wasn't brought up in it, no, but I first learnt about Islam when I was about ten or eleven. Being brought up as a Catholic, I do know how a religious upbringing works, though.
Call me pedantic, but I find it weird that you use the word "sin" - with you being an athiest.
kay:
Well spotted! A remnant of my upbringing, perhaps. It's often used in secular society as a synonym for 'morally wrong', and that's the sense in which I intended it.
In short, yes, it is a sin
because Allah says so 
.
Quite so. As a Muslim I assume that's all the justification you need.
But seriously, this question is just another example of the fact that you do not understand the perspective of a believer.
Again, quite so. It's not possible for me to enter the mind of a believer and experience it. This makes religious discussions far from straightforward. I can at least attempt to understand the thinking behind your views though, I hope.
The Quran tells us that it is not permissable to indulge in homosexual acts. To me this implies that the individual has the choice whether to do such a thing.
Perhaps. To me this implies that the author of the Qur'an acknowledges the existence of homosexual acts, and has then decided where they fit on his moral scale. It is the justification for that decision that I'm curious about.
Which brings me to my next point, muslims consider this world a test. Therefore such homosexual thoughts are to be considered a test from Allah, to see whether an individual would succumb to the thought in question, or choose to achieve the pleasure of Allah by refraining from such practices.
On one view, it appears that some people have homosexual urges, while others don't. So the people who do have them will be tested more in this area than those who don't. Is this the standard Muslim understanding of how Allah operates, that different tests will be given to different people?
In any case, I don't buy into the whole "we were born this way" defence. If that was the case then why not apply the same rules when considering paedophiles?... surely they were just "born that way"
As I've said, the jury is still out on this one.
But of course you won't, because it is "wrong", the question is why is it considered wrong. Perhaps it is against nature, owing to the fact that they are not physically or mentally mature enough right?
I believe paedophilia is wrong for that reason, yes.
Then why can't people say the same for homosexuals (the fact that it is unnatural)?
Let me guess, you would probably be of the opinion that practicing homosexuality is ok as long as the individuals are both over the legal age and consenting? But this does not change the fact that a person has the choice to do so or not.
I don't think there's a moral equivalence here. You say that people still have a choice in both cases, but in the case of paedophilia, the child involved surely isn't adequately prepared to make that choice, no?
If people were just born that way, where in the world do bisexual's come from?
On a slightly different view from the one I mentioned above, all people are naturally bisexual, with an inclination one way or the other. I'm not sure about this myself, but I just thought I'd mention it. Bisexuality was the norm in Ancient Greece, for example.
Or the situations where people go through a "phase" usually at some point in their teenage lives?
A mystery, possibly related to the bisexual view I just mentioned.
Or the fact that sailor ships and prisons are rife with homosexuality?
This one, I think, can be explained quite simply. Humans have a natural desire for sex, and in places occupied by one sex only, that natural urge will express itself in homosexuality. In fact, this phenomenon is an argument in favour of the 'all humans are bisexual' view.
All these questions raise the fact that homosexuality is a choice that has been made by the individual. Therefore it is not natural.
I don't think it's that clear cut. In a prison, if two male prisoners decide to have sex with each other, is that behaviour due to their own choice or due to their situation?
Clearly we disagree on this question; however, I'm sure there is a fruitful discussion to be had through examining each other's views and the reasons for them.
Peace
