How can a mother do this?

[جوري]

I don't know what is worse: the fact that this vile act occured or that I'm not phased at all by it (because of the frequency of these kinds of disgusting crimes and how it is becoming less of a shock).

I mean, when I was growing up, theft was the worst crime I could comprehend - like it was the worst crime possible. Nowadays, rape and murder...and this kinda of pure evil plagues society. It's terrible and I don't think it will get better.

May Allah grant the child firdaus.

I wish I could feel less shocked about it or desensitized but it keeps playing in my mind-- it upset me in a very bad way I think perhaps since the Megan Kanka story and another one of a young girl who was raped and shot by this 60 year old guy, when he shot her he didn't kill her completely at her autopsy there were signs that she tried to climb from the area he left her for dead her nails were broken with dirt beneath her nails.. Astghfor Allah.. I really wish I could just let it go but I don't know how in fact even writing about it hasn't made a difference...

I can't understand how this woman wants to be free and a part of society after what she has done.. she must really be a sociopath =(

I don't believe she has mental illness.. andrea yates had serious postpartum psychosis and prematurely released from the psych. ward.. this woman is very calculating.. if they won't give her the death penalty then I hope she sits there and has the images of this poor girl especially her last moments haunt her for the rest of her miserable life...

 

[Donia]

SubhanAllah..
This topic just makes me really sad. I am not at all desensitized to it. I think it happens way to much and everytime I hear about it happening in another story, it just makes me sick.

 

[Argamemnon]

If I had my way I would throw that woman into a volcano.

 

[cat eyes]

i know the woman done wrong very wrong, but stil i dont think we r in the position to judge her actions, did we witness it, no, do we know why she did it, no, do we know her life story, no- well ok we gather she must hav been a sik individual but that said, who knows what was going thru her mind or goin on in her life, not everyone is strong enuff to ignore the devil within and if she was wired on drugs or under constant intoxication, pychological distress, mayb she did not comprehend her actions.

yes some people hav tuff lives and pull themselves thru but some people just dont kno how, and its not fair for us get up on the high horse like we judge jury and executioner Islam dont teach that... or does it? i mean wat if she accepts Islam after a detox and rehabilitation?

many people do commit henious crimes while under longterm intoxication, and while im not saying its ok to do such crimes while intoxicated, we shudnt be judging her like so, perhaps when she had time to clean up she may realise that her actons were very bad and then she may turn to Allah.

I dont believe in the death penalty cos in these times i dont think anyone is sin free to chuck the first stone if u kno wat im sayin....... and we will be all be meeting with our Lord who will tell us we we did, wat is repentance for if governments r gonna give ppl the death penalty and end their life of repentance?

i mean come on obviously this woman is clearly mentally disturbed, thats wat kind of woman would commit a crime like this to her own 2 year old, if this was any crime and done while someone is mentally disturbed i dont think they should b given the death penalty.

yea the sheltered life is nice, but i dont think its good to b unable to relate to real life things, not only relate but grasp the concept that good muslims can come from the unsheltered life, if they r given a chance.

if someone does something bad 2 us, shud we go do the same bad thing to them?

and thats my opinion to me seems logical, and Allah knows best, the Owner of the Day of Judgement for all mankind and jinn.
peace

You do have a point no matter what the crime its Allah who will judge at the end of it all. there is people out there who are mentally sick and hear voices and tell them to do such things. i have so much compassion for the mentally ill too humm maybe because my brother suffered a great deal of hardship trying to fight these demons that were disturbing him and tormenting all the rest of the family. i still see this woman as human like all the rest of us and not some type of monster.

you know i always sometimes would say''how could a person do this. they might go to hell'' believe it or not i ended up doing the same sin or close to it not completely but close so i will finish of this post with this duaa, Allah should protect each and everyone of us of these whispering devils who tempt us if anytime we are feeling at our lowest or going through any hardship Ameen it can happen to any one of us people have to remember that. anybody can go insane by the will of Allah through black magic or any other thing.

 

[Karl]

I want to wring her neck.. I hope they give her the death penalty!

With all due respect, Goss, your judgmental vigilante rhetoric sounds more to me like jumped up selfrighteous kafir mentality rather than the way I would normally expect a Muslim to act. What you don't seem to understand is that this is strictly a DOMESTIC affair, NOT a public affair, NOT your affair, NOT my affair, NOT anyone's affair except that of the parents, and ultimately something that only ALLAH has the right to judge. If there is to be any judge it should only be ALLAH. How parents raise their OWN offspring is 100% their OWN business! It is NOT yours, or anyone else's business to get involved! Also not only does it come as a shock to me that you have this jumped up busybody attitude, you are furthermore involving yourself in the affairs of NON Muslims as well! That really takes the cake, Goss.

There is an old maxim that states "A man's house is his castle", and I place a maximal and imperative importance on this and PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS. I shall raise my OWN offspring 100% AS I SEE FIT! And any busybody selfrighteous socialist who thinks they have the right to get involved in my affairs automatically become my sworn ENEMY and my sights will be honed in on them. I don't care if the busybody culprit who selfrighteously barges into my house even calls themself a "Muslim". Once an outsider (no matter WHO they are) interferes in my PRIVATE affairs and crosses onto my private property against my consent is when they have rendered themselves none other than a busybody socialist TRESPASSER, as far as I'm concerned. Any such person(s) would class as my sworn enemy and I will fight and resist them with everything it takes. All matters between myself and my offspring are 100% up to Allah's judgment, NOT a bunch of busybody selfrighteous interfering vigilante lefties. Any misdeeds (or perceived misdeeds) that I ever commit against my OWN offspring are strictly between ME and ALLAH alone. It will never ever be any or your or anyone else's business whatsoever. You have NO natural right to make any judgment on that woman because you have NOTHING to do with her. That shall only be of Allah's rightful will to judge her how HE sees. Please don't get me wrong, Gossamer, and please don't take me as cold and callous. No doubt about it, such things are sad, but the only natural right we have is to feel pity and sadness alone. However, the moment we become involved in affairs that are simply not ours to begin with is when we have crossed the line and are trespassing onto someone's private property and into their private affairs. And I will stand strong against that kind of behaviour and will fight against it at all cost.

 

[Karl]

Dovelove said: "He is the only one who can judge them, while it does make one o so sad and angry we r angry about the action and we shud try to forgive the human."

While things like this might be sad, I'd utterly refuse to ever become "angry" over it. This is because getting angry over it is akin to assuming or implying AUTHORITY. I have absolutely NO natural authority over their personal affairs therefore it is NONE of my business. I am always irritated by the collectivist talk these days of "OUR children this, OUR children that". I am NOT a communist! My next door neighbour's offspring are HIS, they are NOT "ours". My offspring are MINE, they are NOT "yours" or "ours"! But every single creature on earth does belong to Allah, and Allah alone. We are all HIS property.

Gossamer said: "children are our world and future.."

That may be so. However it only really means anything from an individualistic parent point of view, not a collectivist point of view. Your children might be YOUR future, but they certainly are not MY future. And vice versa-- my offspring are only MY future, they are NOT your or anyone else's future. I know I might be stating the obvious here, but I just wanted to make sure you understand that little point because your parlance has a definitely familiar leftist/communist edge to it.


Rabi'ya said: "The killers will get their punishment, preferably death and removal from thif life. they wlil surely get a much harsher punishment in the next."

Alhoda said: "She should be executed at least"

Fair enough, but that should only be for Allah to dish that out, NOT you, not me, and not any self-important bunch of busybody communists who thinks they are Allah themselves. It is up to Allah to strike them down with lightening (if he so chooses).


Rabi'ya said: "It is shocking that we just accept it as normality"

Because this is simply none of your business to begin with, it is therefore not up to you to either "accept" or "not accept" it as "normality". It may not be "normal" for you to do, but it may be normal for them.


Dovelove said: "i know the woman done wrong very wrong, but stil i dont think we r in the position to judge her actions, did we witness it, no, do we know why she did it, no, do we know her life story, no- well ok we gather she must hav been a sik individual but that said, who knows what was going thru her mind or goin on in her life, not everyone is strong enuff to ignore the devil within and if she was wired on drugs or under constant intoxication, pychological distress, mayb she did not comprehend her actions."

Some very good points. However you missed the fundamental point that we are not in any position to judge because it is NOT even our BUSINESS to begin with how they raise their OWN offspring, no matter WHAT the situation. Your points were good, but they are only peripheral points when compared to fundamental importance of what I have just pointed out to you.

"...and its not fair for us get up on the high horse like we judge jury and executioner Islam dont teach that"

Absolutely!! If there is to be any judge, jury and executioner then ALLAH shall be all that alone, except of course there won't be any need for a jury, as ALLAH is the only judge, and he is infallible.


Gossamer said: "I can't understand how this woman wants to be free and a part of society after what she has done.."

Did you ask her if she even wanted to be part of someone's "society" to begin with? How do you know that she wanted to have anything to do with anyone's "society"??

Argamemnon said: "If I had my way I would throw that woman into a volcano."

Careful! Who are YOU to judge her? Don't pretend to be Allah, otherwise you might just find that he will judge YOU in a way not pretty at all!


cat eyes said: "You do have a point no matter what the crime its Allah who will judge at the end of it all."

Absolutely!! I am with you all the way there! I give you full marks on that statement

 

[جوري]

With all due respect, Goss, your judgmental vigilante rhetoric sounds more to me like jumped up selfrighteous kafir mentality rather than the way I would normally expect a Muslim to act.

How should a Muslim react in your mind?

What you don't seem to understand is that this is strictly a DOMESTIC affair, NOT a public affair, NOT your affair, NOT my affair, NOT anyone's affair except that of the parents, and ultimately something that only ALLAH has the right to judge. If there is to be any judge it should only be ALLAH.

1- I haven't set out to wring her neck (I was expressing an opinion) with hopes that the highest level of justice will be served.
2- She is being charged with first degree murder with highest penalty sought, thus whether in my mind I think her guilty or not is inconsequential (again, my thoughts are of a young life snuffed in a vile manner) and the records are made public in other words it is no longer a private affair! such things as not reporting her missing for five weeks, seems to indicate so little regard for life (whether her own or someone else') I certainly hope that when one is made aware of someone being missing or dying that they'd at least offer an anonymous call so someone who does care would offer help.. it is called a 'good Samaritan law' -- we don't live in a lawless world..
3- We are given shari3a to impose justice on earth.. and the crime for voluntary man-slaughter is death just like the crime for theft is to have your hand cut off.. if you don't like such laws because it is by way of 'judging' then perhaps you shouldn't be a Muslim all together (I have always had my doubts that you are anyway)

you can't be a leftist and support the death penalty by the way.. you are a dynamo of a hyperbole!

How parents raise their OWN offspring is 100% their OWN business! It is NOT yours, or anyone else's business to get involved! Also not only does it come as a shock to me that you have this jumped up busybody attitude, you are furthermore involving yourself in the affairs of NON Muslims as well! That really takes the cake, Goss.

She hasn't really raised an offspring, she has murdered one.
children are born on fitrah and are so classified until someone actively turns them into something else. your attitude toward humanity and lack of regard to the law and human life, leave very little to be desired.. I really do hope you are a Muslim impersonator as you are a poor excuse for a Muslim!

There is an old maxim that states "A man's house is his castle", and I place a maximal and imperative importance on this and PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS. I shall raise my OWN offspring 100% AS I SEE FIT! And any busybody selfrighteous socialist who thinks they have the right to get involved in my affairs automatically become my sworn ENEMY and my sights will be honed in on them. I don't care if the busybody culprit who selfrighteously barges into my house even calls themself a "Muslim". Once an outsider (no matter WHO they are) interferes in my PRIVATE affairs and crosses onto my private property against my consent is when they have rendered themselves none other than a busybody socialist TRESPASSER, as far as I'm concerned. Any such person(s) would class as my sworn enemy and I will fight and resist them with everything it takes. All matters between myself and my offspring are 100% up to Allah's judgment, NOT a bunch of busybody selfrighteous interfering vigilante lefties. Any misdeeds (or perceived misdeeds) that I ever commit against my OWN offspring are strictly between ME and ALLAH alone. It will never ever be any or your or anyone else's business whatsoever. You have NO natural right to make any judgment on that woman because you have NOTHING to do with her. That shall only be of Allah's rightful will to judge her how HE sees. Please don't get me wrong, Gossamer, and please don't take me as cold and callous. No doubt about it, such things are sad, but the only natural right we have is to feel pity and sadness alone. However, the moment we become involved in affairs that are simply not ours to begin with is when we have crossed the line and are trespassing onto someone's private property and into their private affairs. And I will stand strong against that kind of behaviour and will fight against it at all cost.

Should I understand from your tirade, that:

1- you are in support of people murdering their children in the privacy of their 'castles?'
2- you'd stand idly to abuse because it isn't your business, and not your place to 'judge' especially the heathens, even though is it un-islamic to see injustice and not change it in one of several ways in which the lowest is with the heart and is the weakest form?
3- you are in opposition to impose the law God has set for us on Earth?


try to strip your diatribe down from the emotional hyperbole... people who identify with criminals perhaps have a few skeletons in their closet?

all the best 'Karl'

 

[جوري]

That may be so. However it only really means anything from an individualistic parent point of view, not a collectivist point of view. Your children might be YOUR future, but they certainly are not MY future. And vice versa-- my offspring are only MY future, they are NOT your or anyone else's future. I know I might be stating the obvious here, but I just wanted to make sure you understand that little point because your parlance has a definitely familiar leftist/communist edge to it.

You don't live in an insular world, and certainly they are the future whether you like it or not.. someone's kid could potentially be determining your Gleason score tomorrow or operating on your prostate the next, maybe even wiping your drool once you are placed on olanzpine, try to move away from your telescope and focus on an entire picture, and take your leftist rightest propaganda BS where it may receive applause.. I doubt sectarian nonsense will sit well on an Islamic forum!



Gossamer said: "I can't understand how this woman wants to be free and a part of society after what she has done.."

Did you ask her if she even wanted to be part of someone's "society" to begin with? How do you know that she wanted to have anything to do with anyone's "society"??

That is what it means to plead not guilty when all evidence points to you alone, and when you hide your daughter's death and not report her missing for more than a month while roaming free.. have you been following this case at all?

all the best 'Karl the rightest'

 

[Maryan0]

This is a very sad case. However i've heard from an islamic perspective that only Allah can judge the parents who harm or kill their children and that they can't be judged in a worldly court, but i'm not sure.
salam

 

[جوري]

can I please have the hadith for that?

:wa:

 

[Maryan0]

I don't have a hadith, ayah or opinion from a scholar for it. I've "heard" about it however I'm not sure. Maybe somebody knowledgeable in this regard can clarify?
salam

 

[Maryan0]

retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." (Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).
I found this on google i'm not sure of it's validity though it's apparently from a book on the Shafi'i school of thought.
salam

 

[جوري]

I found that hadith on jihadwatch alleging that it is how Muslims justify honor killings!

 

[جوري]

I have found this a reply to the hadith you have posted:

"The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to be a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside."

- Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4457.

 

[Maryan0]

I found that hadith on jihadwatch alleging that it is how Muslims justify honor killings!

yah that was the second link that came up on google lol...
honestly i'm not sure i'm not saying it's true it's just of something i've heard alot and that I wanted clarified.
salam

 

[جوري]

I have found a hadith above to refute it-- on this website:

http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/print/3240/

:wa:

 

[Maryan0]

I have found this a reply to the hadith you have posted:

"The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to be a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside."

- Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4457.

jazakhallahu khairan i've heard of this too and that story of Prophet Musa and the lessons he learned from khadr.
salam

 

[Maryan0]

I have found a hadith above to refute it-- on this website:

http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/print/3240/

:wa:

Thanks again
salam

 

[جوري]

jazakhallahu khairan i've heard of this too and that story of Prophet Musa and the lessons he learned from khadr.
salam

In the link it states that if the intent is murder then:

A father “is not executed because of the respect for fatherhood.” The commentary adds a caveat, however: “If circumstances indicate the [father] actually intended to kill [the son], then [the father] is killed for him in the well-known position.”



Islam goes with fitrah not against it.. I am certainly glad this is clarified!

:wa:

 

[Karl]

How should a Muslim react in your mind?

With a sense of courteous humility and not snooping into someone else's private affairs. Keeping off one's high horse, and understanding the blatantly obvious difference between private and public affairs, and that they are NOT to be treated the same way.

1- I haven't set out to kill her (I was expressing an opinion) with hopes that justice will be served.

You might not have set out to kill her yourself, but you are still HOPING for kafir interference into her private affairs. That makes you look like their ally to me.

2- She is being charged with first degree murder with highest penalty sought, thus whether in my mind I think her guilty or not is inconsequential (again, my thoughts are of a young life snuffed in a vile manner) and the records are made public.. in other words it is no longer a private affair!

You have tried to twist things about. Yes it has been forced into a public matter, from something that at its roots is rightfully a DOMESTIC matter. One could expose things about your private life that are not inherently a public matter (like what kind of perfume you use), but just because it can be TURNED in to a public matter doesn't mean to say that it IS a public matter in its essence.

3- We are given shari3a to impose justice on earth.. and the crime for voluntary man-slaughter is death!

That is different. That is when one commits murder or theft etc against an outsider. It has nothing to do with and shouldn't be imposed on private property of which offspring are part and parcel of that (they are parental chattels, so "murder" charges are simply invalid and can never rightfully apply here). Fair enough too that some kind of basic law would be needed against killing outsiders, otherwise we could be all out there on the streets slaughtering each other left, right and centre, and this could become completely out of control. So yes, it only seems understandable that there does need to be some kind of "law" if public peace is to be kept. BUT when this law is enforced BEYOND that extent and overrides independant parental prerogative it then becomes a patent violation of private property rights.

you can't be a leftist and support the death penalty by the way.. what a dynamo of a hyperbole you are!

Err, look at China, still very communist and they have about the highest number of executions in the world. And lets not mention Stalin and co. Lefties are about the worst when it comes to busybodying, interferences and violations against private property rights, capital punishment and genocide. They hold the worst track record for these types of things.

She hasn't really raised an offspring, she has murdered one.

Ok then if you prefer it to be put that way: She killed one as she saw fit. A baby of her creation, she hasn't even a husband, therefore her choice by default to do what she wants. Remember the only loss is hers. Her line will be extinguished.

1- you are in support of people murdering their children in the privacy of their castles?

It doesn't have to be only in the privacy of their own castles to be legitimate. Seeing their offspring are their chattels it is irrelevant whether what happens is on public domain or private property.

2- you'd stand idly to abuse because it isn't your business, and not your place to 'judge'

Correct, I am too humble to play Allah. I am not Allah. If he really needs "justice" he'll do it by striking her down with lightning or making her drown in the sea. I'm sure he'd prefer just to do it that way rather then choosing a bunch of busybody socialists to have to do it for him.

Even though is it un-islamic to see injustice and not change it in one of three ways in which the lowest is with the heart and is the weakest form?

Depends how you define "justice". Two "wrongs" don't make a right. if someone kills his offspring, and you cross into his private property and bust down his door wanting "justice" (for something you have no actual right of demanding in the first place, by the way), this is trespassing on PRIVATE PROPERTY. As I said before, two wrongs don't make a right. I define "justice" as something only in the realm of interpublic relations, but not relevant and applicable when it comes to matters to do with one's own flesh and blood offspring. People have the right to regard their own offspring by whatever way they wish, but as far as I'M concerned, my offspring are my chattels, and therefore not rightfully bound within ordinary public law.

3- you are in opposition to impose the law God has set for us on Earth?

No. I think I have now explained everything in my above statements. As I said, when it comes to offspring, that changes everything completely. That might not be the position you hold, but it is nonetheless MY position on it, and will forever remain that way.

.. people who identify with criminals perhaps have a few skeletons in their closet?

No, I have nothing to hide. But I have a hardwired thing in me called PRIDE and I will never allow anyone to poke their nose into any of my private affairs (which includes how I raise my own flesh and blood). I would never DREAM of killing them because I love them very much, but I am nonetheless stating to you my uncompromising principle here, which I think you understand, even if I know you will no doubt loathe me for it.

You don't live in an insular world

Wrong. I DO live in an insular world, I have MADE my own insular world because I decided long ago to isolate myself and my family away from the high horse self-righteous authority of the masses. In the isolated world we have made for ourselves we live only with Allah, and only he alone will judge us. Nothing else, no one else, only Allah. My offspring regard me and me alone as their complete and only authority under Allah.

try to move away from your telescope and focus on an entire picture

Oh I SEE the "big picture", but just refuse to be a part of it and play by its rules. I will NEVER allow it authority of me. I submit to Allah alone and nothing else.

all the best 'Karl'

All the best to you too, Gos..