How can God dwell inside of you?

[alcurad]

The verse says, 'The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son), sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' How can David call someone his Lord if he is not talking about God? Wouldn't that be blasphemy?

(The Lord, is different from my lord, the first is begun with The, which implies the only, the second is a term of respect, not equal to the first.)


He does accept you as you are. We are often taught in the Christian faith to witness to people that they can come to Christ exactly as they are. Whether they be murderers, rapists, homosexuals, lesbians, thieves, etc, etc. The thing is, when you come to him, he changes you. So you don't have to live a life a slave to sin anymore.

(I understand that, and since he does accept us, there is no need for sacrifice, he can do it without sacrifice, no?)


Well, Christ came into the world to save sinners from their sins. That was his purpose. The most perfect life you can live on this side of existance is as a Christian. And not everyone who calls themselves a Christian are really Christ's. Refer to the scripture I quoted at the top of the page for instance. There are many people who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday.

and that brings forth the question, what did Christ accomplish then? we are still sinning, even those Christians who have accepted him will no doubt have the possibility of sinning, it's not that ability had been removed.

The whole point of the trinity is to support the idea of Christ's divinity, the whole point of the crucifixion is for God to be able to forgive us by sacrificing Christ, I don't see how that stands to reason, if we accept God to be actually God, or if it has much proof from scripture. Christ making one new, holy is contradicted by their ability to sin, which makes his sacrifice not worth that much to begin with, forgiveness is in God's hands, and continues to be, what did Christ add to that if those who accept him are still capable of sin?

doesn't that then contradict the verses which speak of the son making one free, free from what if you can still go back, or the verse that speaks of those born of God not sinning, is accepting Christ then not being born of God?

 

[mkh4JC]

and that brings forth the question, what did Christ accomplish then? we are still sinning, even those Christians who have accepted him will no doubt have the possibility of sinning, it's not that ability had been removed.

The whole point of the trinity is to support the idea of Christ's divinity, the whole point of the crucifixion is for God to be able to forgive us by sacrificing Christ, I don't see how that stands to reason, if we accept God to be actually God, or if it has much proof from scripture. Christ making one new, holy is contradicted by their ability to sin, which makes his sacrifice not worth that much to begin with, forgiveness is in God's hands, and continues to be, what did Christ add to that if those who accept him are still capable of sin?

doesn't that then contradict the verses which speak of the son making one free, free from what if you can still go back, or the verse that speaks of those born of God not sinning, is accepting Christ then not being born of God?

No, the possibility has not been removed. And even in Hebrews the author tells us that those Christians who do sin will be disciplined by an almighty God. The point is though, is that you don't have to sin. You are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is (in all areas of life). When you become Christian God saves you through your spirit (where he dwells). Your mind and your body have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

No, the possibility has not been removed. And even in Hebrews the author tells us that those Christians who do sin will be disciplined by an almighty God. The point is though, is that you don't have to sin. You are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is (in all areas of life). When you become Christian God saves you through your spirit (where he dwells). Your mind and your body have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act.

So the only point of the crucifixion is, not that it makes us sin less, or that it makes us do better deeds, just that our omnipotent God couldn't forgive sins without first sacrificing himself?

 

[mkh4JC]

So the only point of the crucifixion is, not that it makes us sin less, or that it makes us do better deeds, just that our omnipotent God couldn't forgive sins without first sacrificing himself?

I don't think I implied that from what you quoted. If you are still in your sins, then you are a slave to sin (meaning, you can't help yourself, you're going to sin). If you are a Christian, then you are a slave to righteousness. And it has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it has to be paid. We have to either accept what God has provided for us (in terms of payment) or we have to pay it ourselves.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I don't think I implied that from what you quoted. If you are still in your sins, then you are a slave to sin (meaning, you can't help yourself, you're going to sin). If you are a Christian, then you are a slave to righteousness. And it has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it has to be paid. We have to either accept what God has provided for us (in terms of payment) or we have to pay it ourselves.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?

 

[rpwelton]

No, the possibility has not been removed. And even in Hebrews the author tells us that those Christians who do sin will be disciplined by an almighty God. The point is though, is that you don't have to sin. You are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is (in all areas of life). When you become Christian God saves you through your spirit (where he dwells). Your mind and your body have yet to be redeemed. That won't happen until the rapture of the church, when God will completely redeem us. You can still think on things that are not wholesome, you just have the power not to act.

I've been away from this thread for quite some time, due to long hours at work and getting sucked into another thread.

It seems to me that if a "sinner" (ie, non-Christian) does not have the power to resist sin, but the Christian has that power, that when the Christian sins, it is much worse than the "sinner". That is, you had the ability to stop it, but you didn't, while the sinner had no ability to stop it. Am I getting this right?

To me, it just seems like Christians live in this perfect theoretical world when it comes to sin.

Why can't we be responsible for our own actions? It doesn't make sense that God would create all of us, and then offer a free way out to those who wanted it.

 

[Oleander]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?



>>>You never going to get staight answer.

Christians every day they remind them self and others how they are sinners, and worth nothing.

If all the world sinners, including Christians, so what is the advanage Christians accomplished after God or his son die?

They tell you we are all sinners.


If Christian does something wrong (gay, hitler..) .

They tell you these people are not good Christians!

You ask, Who is the good christians?

They tell you, the ones who fellow Christ.

You ask, do you fellow Christ?

If all of you sinners, then NONE of you fellow Christ, right?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?



>>>You never going to get staight answer.

Christians every day they remind them self and others how they are sinners, and worth nothing.

If all the world sinners, including Christians, so what is the advanage Christians accomplished after God or his son die?

They tell you we are all sinners.


If Christian does something wrong (gay, hitler..) .

They tell you these people are not good Christians!

You ask, Who is the good christians?

They tell you, the ones who fellow Christ.

You ask, do you fellow Christ?

If all of you sinners, then NONE of you fellow Christ, right?

I'm sorry but your post didnt quite help me understand. So you admit that the crucifixion taking away your original sin, in no way makes you a better person than the good Jew or Muslim.


I'm not surprised that Christians would say that they are all sinners because Muslims, Jews, Hindus and etc will all say the same thing.



It seems as if all the crucifixion did for humanity is that it gave God a way to forgive our sins by sacrificing himself....which is a strange concept to apply to an omnipotent God.

 

[mkh4JC]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?

The only sins that a Christian cannot overcome are sins like being lazy, and sins of the mind, which you can't stop. A Christian has no business commiting sin (ie sinning with action).

 

[AntiKarateKid]

The only sins that a Christian cannot overcome are sins like being lazy, and sins of the mind, which you can't stop. A Christian has no business commiting sin (ie sinning with action).

Neither does a Muslim or Jew... So again, the crucifixion did nothing but allow an omnipotent God the ability to forgive original sin by sacrificing himself.

 

[mkh4JC]

I think you misunderstood me. Do Christians, without their original sun for accepting Jesus pbuh, sin less now and are inherently more good?

Neither does a Muslim or Jew... So again, the crucifixion did nothing but allow an omnipotent God the ability to forgive original sin by sacrificing himself.

I think you misunderstand. Christianity is about perfection. When I say a Christian has no business committing trespasses before a holy God, I mean to say that we have power to live out a holy, sin free life.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
[...]
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:5-6;9-10

There is no other faith on Earth where people like homosexuals and lesbians can come to Christ and receive newness of life. That is why God takes direct action and disciplines those Christians who do sin, as they have no excuse, unlike the world.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you misunderstand. Christianity is about perfection. When I say a Christian has no business committing trespasses before a holy God, I mean to say that we have power to live out a holy, sin free life.

But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
[...]
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 3:5-6;9-10

There is no other faith on Earth where people like homosexuals and lesbians can come to Christ and receive newness of life. That is why God takes direct action and disciplines those Christians who do sin, as they have no excuse, unlike the world.

You still have not answered my question. You threw a bunch of flowery verses at me. Tell me man, if you said that once your original sin has been taken away through Jesus pbuh, you don't necessarily start sinning less and doing more good deeds, then what was the point of taking them away? Why did God have to sacrifice himself just to give himself the ability to forgive original sin.

 

[mkh4JC]

You still have not answered my question. You threw a bunch of flowery verses at me. Tell me man, if you said that once your original sin has been taken away through Jesus pbuh, you don't necessarily start sinning less and doing more good deeds, then what was the point of taking them away? Why did God have to sacrifice himself just to give himself the ability to forgive original sin.

I have answered your question. When you become Christian, you are a slave to righteousness. You have the power (and I stress this) to live holy before God (in all areas of life), no matter what kind of past you may have. You aren't supposed to sin AT ALL, because God has given you power to live holy before him. You are dead to sin as a Christian (ie all sin). That's the Christian life. I've quoted supporting scriptures and I've described the lifestyle, I don't know how much more plainer I can make it.

You do good deeds (like giving to ministries who give to the poor) because God puts it on your heart to do good deeds, not to work your way into heaven.

 

[Indigåtor]

Fedos,

What cave are you living in that you cannot see anything outside of it? I want to bring you of there!

Everything which Fedos claims is exactly the same as in Islam or Judaism, minus the Jesus part - devoted Muslims and Jews live sinlessly and rejoice in the presence of God. Neither are they rapists, murderers, homosexuals, thieves, adulterers etc,. Equally, they feel no spiritual insecurity.

The salvation tale is the same but Christianity adds spice to it with a deified Christ. I bet most of them do not even repent for their sins because they are so convinced that they are saved, and that sense of being redeemed opens the door to all sin... regardless of what the scripture teaches. The people of old despaired of the mercy of their gods and found it difficult to worship a deity they couldn't see. All this changed when Yeheshuwa was deified as God; now the believers could see their god with the naked eye and they could breathe easier for their sins have been forgiven.

The greatest question Christianity must answer is that, if God is omnipotent [all powerful] and omniscient [all knowing], then why did He decide to decree sin as unpardonable without Him incarnating into a human being and suffering 'death'? But people of better reason see that an almighty god possesses the ability to forgive those who surrender to His will and live in accordance to His commandments. They live 'in God' as Christians live 'in Christ' and lead the most righteous life.

Another problem must addressed. Jesus had an anatomy, yet thought to be God incarnate. It was the body; the flesh and blood that was 'sacrificed', but did not God create Christ's anatomy? Surely He must have! He created the flesh, the blood, the bones, and the brain. Is it then rational to deduce that our bodies are to be atoned by... created flesh [i.e Christ's anatomy]? He who was crucified and killed was created - every drop of blood of Jesus was brought into being from nothing by God. Yet, a mere creation atones the universe.

I'm not suggesting Jesus as God the Son is not uncreated, I'm stressing the known fact that his body indeed was. What you deify and conceive as your Lord and God is but made of matter, and created matter -- to worship therefore a corporeal and material thing is polytheism, in spite of the 'Father and Son as one' concept.

The Bible's god is shown as imperfect and lacking omnipotence for the above reasons.

 

[rpwelton]

Fedos,

What cave are you living in that you cannot see anything outside of it? I want to bring you of there!

Everything which Fedos claims is exactly the same as in Islam or Judaism, minus the Jesus part - devoted Muslims and Jews live sinlessly and rejoice in the presence of God. Neither are they rapists, murderers, homosexuals, thieves, adulterers etc,. Equally, they feel no spiritual insecurity.

While I agree with most of your post, I want to stop you right there with the comparison of Christianity to Islam in terms of sin (I can't defend Judaism because I don't know enough about it to do so). We Muslims do not claim to live a life free from sin. We may struggle with sin every day. We are able to attain salvation because we believe in a God who forgives us when we repent from our sins. We do not say at the end of the day "Ah, today I did not sin, I've been a good Muslim", because that would be pure arrogance. Even Jesus, when asked why he was good, responded with: "Why do you call me good, when only the Father is good?" So if not even Jesus thought he was good, who are we to call ourselves good?

There is a big difference between a Christian believing they are "beyond sin" and a Muslim who knows that sin is a reality and, when one commits it, one must ask for forgiveness.

As Muslims we fear God, but also acknowledge His Mercy. A Muslim lives in accordance with this balance, striving to do good as much as possible, but knowing that we as humans are not infallible, and thus our wrong actions can bring upon the Wrath of Allah if we do not sincerely repent from them and turn towards good.

There is no automatic "power" over sin like what Fedos is describing happens to a Christian. We simply have a system in place (Islam) that if followed correctly (like a patient taking medicine) will put us on the straight path with the guidance of Allah. Muslims, however, recognize we do not live in a theoretical world without sin.

I don't want to make this another point of contention, but mainly to just clarify that Islam has a very different concept of salvation from Christianity.

 

[mkh4JC]

The greatest question Christianity must answer is that, if God is omnipotent [all powerful] and omniscient [all knowing], then why did He decide to decree sin as unpardonable without Him incarnating into a human being and suffering 'death'? But people of better reason see that an almighty god possesses the ability to forgive those who surrender to His will and live in accordance to His commandments. They live 'in God' as Christians live 'in Christ' and lead the most righteous life.

I already answered this. It has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it must be paid. You have to either accept the payment that God has provided (through the atoning work of the cross) or you'll end up paying your own sin debt.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I already answered this. It has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it must be paid. You have to either accept the payment that God has provided (through the atoning work of the cross) or you'll end up paying your own sin debt.

'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23

Ok now I can work with this. Sure sin has a price. In Islam it is hell or suffering in this life. THough since Allah is the judge of everything, if he chooses to forgive someone if they have sincerely repented and are prepared to accept either his mercy or punishment, where does your blood atonement come into? Or even if they suffered his punishments already and are now open for forgiveness? Why atonement?



You talk about sin having a price to pay but what kind of payment to God is having God come down and suffering and dying for you?

They payment should come from the indebted not the debtor.

 

[rpwelton]

Ok now I can work with this. Sure sin has a price. In Islam it is hell or suffering in this life. THough since Allah is the jude of everything, if he chooses to forgive someone if they have sincerely repented and are prepared to accept either his mercy or punishment, where does your blood atonement come into? Or even if they suffered his punishments already and are now open for forgiveness? Why atonement?



You talk about sin having a price to pay but what kind of payment to God is having God come down and suffering and dying for you?

They payment should come from the indebted not the debtor.

Quite right. It often seems as though Christians have a concept of God that negates His Mercy and Justice.

First, about Justice. God is supposedly punishing us for a sin that Adam committed. I didn't eat the apple...why should I be punished? This is not justice. In Islam we are each given an equal opportunity to sin or not sin; the burden of one person is not placed on the shoulders of another.

Second, about Mercy. Apparently in Christianity God cannot just forgive someone of their sins; only blood of an innocent, pure individual (Jesus) can absolve sin. So that means that even if I am indebted to God for sin, He cannot forgive me (or will not, I'm not sure exactly) because we owe Him.

But let's take an example to show how that cannot be the case. If Person A lends money to Person B, but Person B is not able to repay the loan because of hardship, the lender can just forgive the debt if he so wishes. Does that mean that the lender is more merciful than God (may Allah forgive me for even mentioning this)?

Why would God create us with the ability to sin, but then create a "repayment" system such that only God can pay the debt? To go back to the lending example, it's like the lender just paying himself for the debt of someone else. Clearly this defies all logic!

 

[mkh4JC]

Ok now I can work with this. Sure sin has a price. In Islam it is hell or suffering in this life. THough since Allah is the judge of everything, if he chooses to forgive someone if they have sincerely repented and are prepared to accept either his mercy or punishment, where does your blood atonement come into? Or even if they suffered his punishments already and are now open for forgiveness? Why atonement?

You can only truly repent of sin by accepting Jesus Christ as your savior and receiving newness of life. Repenting means to turn away, to not practice (again) those things that you were previously bound with.

You talk about sin having a price to pay but what kind of payment to God is having God come down and suffering and dying for you?

They payment should come from the indebted not the debtor.

Yes, and if you sin as a Christian, then almighty God will punish you for it. I should know as I have been suffering for things that I did way back since the summer of 2002. If you continue to sin, then God may execute judgement on you, taking you out of the world of the living.

Quite right. It often seems as though Christians have a concept of God that negates His Mercy and Justice.

First, about Justice. God is supposedly punishing us for a sin that Adam committed. I didn't eat the apple...why should I be punished? This is not justice. In Islam we are each given an equal opportunity to sin or not sin; the burden of one person is not placed on the shoulders of another.

A person won't be punished for something Adam did. You would be punished for your own sin that you committed.

Second, about Mercy. Apparently in Christianity God cannot just forgive someone of their sins; only blood of an innocent, pure individual (Jesus) can absolve sin. So that means that even if I am indebted to God for sin, He cannot forgive me (or will not, I'm not sure exactly) because we owe Him.

It's true that you can never pay back God for salvation, but it's not like he expects you to pay him back. Eternal life is a gift from God in the Christian sense. Not of works, so no one can boast in the presence of God.

Why would God create us with the ability to sin, but then create a "repayment" system such that only God can pay such a debt? To go back to the lending example, it's like the lender just paying himself for the debt of someone else. Clearly this defies all logic!

Well, it may seem illogical, to man and his wisdom. But The Bible says the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. And that God has chosen those things that seem weak in the world's eyes (the cruxificion for instance) to confound the wise.

 

[rpwelton]

Well, it may seem illogical, to man and his wisdom. But The Bible says the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. And that God has chosen those things that are seem weak in the world's eyes (the cruxificion for instance)( to confound the wise.

The Bible also says that God is not the author of confusion.