How do we know that the Koran is true?

[Imam]

As for the heavens yeah, it just refers to what is above the Earth.

yes what is above the round earth (tell me if you doubt the Quran viewing the earth to be round)

but it speaks of 'layers' of heaven, and commands descend through these layers to the Earth i.e. the Earth is at the bottom of the layers..

Quran - 65:12
God is who created seven heavens and of the earth the like of them the command/matter descends among them

there is not the slightest hint,in the verse,that Earth is at the bottom of the heavens layers,cause there is not one single verse teaches that earth is the center of the universe,nor the lower heaven means an orbit.....
the verse obviously teaches that the Almighty's command is wherever you go in the universe,where the seen and the unseen...earth,the seven heavens etc....

for Greeks seven planets>>> seven orbits>>>seven heavens



for the Quran Seven heavens ,the lower we can view partly (as we can't view all the stars that been beautified with)

and the reason for the number seven is as I said before

Allah choice so
the week is seven days..

Hell has seven doors:

15:44 To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a class assigned.

he made the wind against some sinners for seven nights:
69:7 He made it rage against them seven nights

He made the Oft-repeated verses seven:
15:87 And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an.


other verse

2:261 The parable of those who spend their substance in the way of Allah is that of a grain of corn: it groweth seven ears..

it places the responsibility for the change in shadows with the Sun .

The verse literally:

Do you not see to your Lord how He extended the shade ? And if He willed, He would have made it still then We have made the sun a proof/evidence/ of it

The classic interpretations:


1- (Ibn katheer)
Arabic
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=25&nAya=45

English:
The almighty saying,(then We have made the sun a proof of it) As things to be known by their opposites, the same case without the sunlight we wouldn't have known what shad is.
the same exact interpretation is repeated by the other classic tafseers
(Alqurtobi,Altabari,Aljallalen).....


peace

 

[Azy]

there is not the slightest hint,in the verse,that Earth is at the bottom of the heavens layers

As for the heavens yeah, it just refers to what is above the Earth.

yes what is above the round earth

1- The lower heaven is which one can view with naked eyes the stars and planets.....

The lowest heaven is one which surrounds the Earth on all sides, and you say it is above us.
Where are we in relation to the heavens if we are below the lowest heaven?
At the bottom.

The verse literally:
Do you not see to your Lord how He extended the shade ? And if He willed, He would have made it still then We have made the sun a proof/evidence/ of it

Why is it that all those translators have got it wrong?
If the Quran is simply talking about the contrast between light and dark and knowing shadow then what is the relevance of the phrase "And if He willed, He would have made it still"?

The first part (in all the translations) speaks of changing the shadow's shape in some way, then the second part speaks of making it still. Is it not obvious that this speaks of movement rather than simply knowing what shadow is?

 

[Imam]

Where are we in relation to the heavens if we are below the lowest heaven?
At the bottom.

we are included in the lowest heaven....

to make the matter clearer:

If You ask where is the location ,according to the Quran, of The round Earth in the lowest heaven,Is it nort,south etc...?

There is no Quranic Data...

If You ask what is the lowest heaven in relation to the round Earth?

It is the one that is beautified with the Stars without any data of its size.....

Why is it that all those translators have got it wrong?

Not all, and the rule I believe to be valid while translating the Quran is to translate it literal if there is nothing in the verse make a hint for a metaphor....

I didn't invent the literal translation....you can find it in the link....

The first part (in all the translations) speaks of changing the shadow's shape in some way

It doesn't mention a changing of shape ,It does say look at the extended shad , that if God wills ,would make it still(permenantly exists)

That is what also wrote the classic interpreatators:

eg;

(Alqurtobi) and (Altabari) and (inb katheer) and (Aljallalen)

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=25&nAya=45
أي دائما مستقرا لا تنسخه الشمس

English
The almighty saying (would make it still) means He could make it permenant and never be cancelled by the ray....

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

Greetings,


Out of interest, how would you answer those questions if they referred to the Qur'an?

From my point of view, there is just as much reason to believe the Epic of Gilgamesh is divine as there is to believe the same about the Qur'an.

Peace

Well, let's see...

Q1) The Qur'an was written down on leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms, at the time of revelation, from the Prophet's dictation. When it was written down, it would be read back, to make sure that there weren't any mistakes. After the Prophet's death, it was codified, and Caliph 'Uthman made several bound copies of the Qur'an, to send to major Islamic provinces.

Q2) The Qur'an offers its inimitability as proof of its divinity, and which history has shown to be true.

Q3) Because it was written down in the presence of the Prophet, and was memorized as well (and still is). Also, it was (and still is) recited in prayer, so forgetting it isn't likely. It also means that it was exoteric, since everyone would've known at least part of it in order to perform their prayers properly.

Well yes, it is obviously talking about the sun's light and the change in the direction of the light, which is a result of the relative movement of the bodies. The part I was interested in is the end where it places the responsibility for the change in shadows with the Sun ("and has made the sun their guide") which can only be interpreted as a geocentric view rather than heliocentric because as we all know the shadows change due to the movement of the Earth, not the Sun.

The responsibility for the change is with the sun's light. The Earth's rotation may be the catalyst, but it's still the sun's light that creates shadows and guides them. The Earth's rotation doesn't determine shadows on its own. Rather, it is the sun's position, relative to a particular point on Earth, that determines shadows. Whichever one moves, is irrelevant to that point.

As for the heavens yeah, it just refers to what is above the Earth, but it speaks of 'layers' of heaven, and commands descend through these layers to the Earth, i.e. the Earth is at the bottom of the layers. Layers of the heavens extending out from Earth sounds pretty geocentric to me. Throw in the fact that the Sun appears to be barely mentioned in the creation, secondary to heaven and Earth, and is placed as a lamp for the Earth, I can't see any reason to agree with you that this isn't geocentric.

Communicating with people on Earth, and saying that commands descend through the sky above them, to where they are, doesn't mean geocentrism. What is above the Earth, has to "descend" down to it to reach it. That's just a matter of fact. Furthermore, for a revelation that was sent specifically to Earth, for those living on Earth, it makes sense that it would distinguish the Universe that way; into the "heavens/sky" above them, and the "land/Earth", which they're on. You're just trying to read into something what simply isn't there.

 

[Azy]

we are included in the lowest heaven....

First you said it was above us, now we're in it...
And We have built above you seven strong (heavens) (78:12)
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. (2:29)

Not all, and the rule I believe to be valid while translating the Quran is to translate it literal if there is nothing in the verse make a hint for a metaphor....

I didn't invent the literal translation....you can find it in the link....

It doesn't mention a changing of shape ,It does say look at the extended shadow , that if God wills ,would make it still(permenantly exists)

But that isn't what the literal translation says.

Do you not see to your Lord how He extended/spread the shade ? And if He willed/wanted, He would have made it still/motionless, then We made/put the sun on it (as) a proof/evidence. (25:45)

In your interpretation 'extended' is an adjective describing the shadow and 'still' means remain.
In the literal translation 'extended' is a verb in the past tense meaning 'made longer', while 'still' means stationary.

The responsibility for the change is with the sun's light.

Mmm, no it isn't. The light travels out in a straight line from the source, it is the movement of the object blocking the light that is responsible for the shadow.

The Earth's rotation may be the catalyst

What does this even mean?

but it's still the sun's light that creates shadows and guides them.

or this?

The Earth's rotation doesn't determine shadows on its own. Rather, it is the sun's position, relative to a particular point on Earth, that determines shadows. Whichever one moves, is irrelevant to that point.

Which is more or less what I said a couple of posts ago, and from our point of view it is irrelevant, but the Quran says it's due to the Sun.

Communicating with people on Earth, and saying that commands descend through the sky above them, to where they are, doesn't mean geocentrism. What is above the Earth, has to "descend" down to it to reach it. That's just a matter of fact. Furthermore, for a revelation that was sent specifically to Earth, for those living on Earth, it makes sense that it would distinguish the Universe that way; into the "heavens/sky" above them, and the "land/Earth", which they're on. You're just trying to read into something what simply isn't there.

It's not just a matter of that, it's that the heavens (the universe with all it's contents) and the Earth are treated as separate entities.

And what's all that seven Earths business about?

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

Mmm, no it isn't. The light travels out in a straight line from the source, it is the movement of the object blocking the light that is responsible for the shadow.

But there would be no shadow if there were no light.

What does this even mean?
or this?

It means that while the Earth's rotation may be the catalyst to the change in shadows, it's still the sun's light that creates them, and it's angle that determines the shape of the shadow.

Which is more or less what I said a couple of posts ago, and from our point of view it is irrelevant, but the Quran says it's due to the Sun.

It is due to the sun, since the sun is what creates the shadows. Whatever angle the sun shines on an object, determines the shape of its shadow. It has nothing to do with geocentrism, nor heliocentrism.

It's not just a matter of that, it's that the heavens (the universe with all it's contents) and the Earth are treated as separate entities.

Of course it is, since its addressing those who live on Earth, which is why Earth is distinguished from everything else that's around it.

And what's all that seven Earths business about?

It's probably referring to the 7 layers of the Earth's crust.

 

[Imam]

First you said it was above us, now we're in it...
[

Yes both are true..... if we are living on such round earth then the lower heaven is what is above me,you,others ..... at the same time we are included in such heaven..

Just draw a diagram putting a ball(earth) in heaven and it doesn't need wisdom to realize the meaning..

In your interpretation 'extended' is an adjective describing the shadow.[

Yes we have in the verse the extended shade that God extended all over...

but what is that shade that God extended?

How the classic commentaries understood such shade to be,and what linguestic and Quranic basis they depend on?

the item (God extended shade) been referenced by the classic commentators as :

the shade in the period from Dawn till sunrise

that is mentioned in all classic tafseers and the meaning referenced to some of the famous prophet's companions eg;Ibn Abbas:


Alqurtubi
قال الحسن وقتادة وغيرهما : مد الظل من طلوع الفجر إلى طلوع الشمس . وقيل : هو من غيوبة الشمس إلى طلوعها . والأول أصح


Ibn Katheer
: " ألم تر إلى ربك كيف مد الظل " ؟ قال ابن عباس وابن عمر وأبو العالية وأبو مالك ومسروق ومجاهد وسعيد بن جبير والنخعي والضحاك والحسن وقتادة : هو ما بين طلوع الفجر إلى طلوع الشمس

Altabari

{ الظِّلّ } وَهُوَ مَا بَيْن طُلُوع الْفَجْر إِلَى طُلُوع الشَّمْس . وَبِنَحْوِ الَّذِي قُلْنَا فِي ذَلِكَ قَالَ أَهْل التَّأْوِيل . ذِكْر مَنْ قَالَ ذَلِكَ : - حَدَّثَنِي عَلِيّ , قَالَ : ثنا عَبْد اللَّه , قَالَ : ثني مُعَاوِيَة , عَنْ عَلِيّ , عَنِ ابْن عَبَّاس , قَوْله : { أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبّك كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلّ } يَقُول : مَا بَيْن طُلُوع الْفَجْر إِلَى طُلُوع الشَّمْس . * -حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّد بْن سَعْد , قَالَ : ثني أَبِي , قَالَ : ثني عَمِّي , قَالَ : ثني أَبِي , عَنْ أَبِيهِ , عَنِ ابْن عَبَّاس , قَوْله : { أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبّك كَيْف مَدَّ الظِّلّ } قَالَ : مَدَّهُ مَا بَيْن صَلَاة الصُّبْح إِلَى طُلُوع الشَّمْس . - حَدَّثَنَا ابْن حُمَيْد , قَالَ : ثنا يَعْقُوب , عَنْ جَعْفَر , عَنْ سَعِيد بْن جُبَيْر , فِي قَوْله : { أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبّك كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلّ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَجَعَلَهُ سَاكِنًا } قَالَ : مَا بَيْن طُلُوع الْفَجْر إِلَى طُلُوع الشَّمْس . - حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّد بْن عَبْد اللَّه بْن بَزِيع , قَالَ : ثنا أَبُو مِحْصَن , عَنْ حُصَيْن , عَنْ أَبِي مَالِك , قَالَ : { أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبّك كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلّ } قَالَ : مَا بَيْن طُلُوع الْفَجْر إِلَى طُلُوع الشَّمْس . - حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّد بْن عَمْرو , قَالَ : ثنا أَبُو عَاصِم , قَالَ : ثنا عِيسَى , وَحَدَّثَنِي الْحَارِث , قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَن , قَالَ : ثنا وَرْقَاء جَمِيعًا , عَنِ ابْن أَبِي نَجِيح , عَنْ مُجَاهِد , قَوْله : { كَيْف مَدَّ الظِّلّ } قَالَ . ظِلّ الْغَدَاة قَبْل أَنْ تَطْلُع الشَّمْس . * - حَدَّثَنَا الْقَاسِم , قَالَ : ثنا الْحُسَيْن , قَالَ : ثني حَجَّاج , عَنِ ابْن جُرَيْج , عَنْ مُجَاهِد , قَالَ : الظِّلّ : ظِلّ الْغَدَاة . - قَالَ : ثني حَجَّاج , عَنِ ابْن جُرَيْج , عَنْ عِكْرِمَة , قَوْله : { أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبّك كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلّ } قَالَ : مَدَّهُ مِنْ طُلُوع الْفَجْر إِلَى طُلُوع الشَّمْس . - حُدِّثْت عَنِ الْحُسَيْن , قَالَ : سَمِعْت أَبَا مُعَاذ يَقُول : أَخْبَرَنَا عُبَيْد , قَالَ : سَمِعْت الضَّحَّاك يَقُول فِي قَوْله : { أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبّك كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلّ } يَعْنِي مِنْ صَلَاة الْغَدَاة إِلَى طُلُوع الشَّمْس .

Verify the link...

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=TABARY&nType=1&nSora=25&nAya=45


apart from defining the shade ,the rest of the texts refer to the names of the companions who defined it so,that is why I didn't translate it....
I just let it for those who know Arabic or interested to verify my claims....


according to that, the shade from Dawn till sunrise is not the shadow that the sun's light creates,but that which when sun's light comes it goes....

The Tafseers based that meaning on the similar phrase mentioned in another verse in the Quran:

While God is describing paradise

Quran 56:30 In shade extended(believers are always staying)..



Ofcourse some people without reading the classic commentaries may understand the verse to be dealing with the shadows of buildings etc....

but even if that is the intended meaning,I think Bro Muslimapoclyptic explained why it is still can't be against science...


I would like to thank you Azy for highlighting such new issue to the arena of Quran and science....

really it is nice finding new issues......and hope you continue the discussion bringing more and more difficulties.

peace

 

[Azy]

really it is nice finding new issues......and hope you continue the discussion bringing more and more difficulties.

I'd love to continue but I think we've reached a point where I can't argue with you on the details of the meaning because I can't read the original Arabic text.

Thanks for being patient with me (you too muslimapoclyptc)

 

[Hamayun]

There is one simple answer...

Q: Why do we know the Quran is true???

A: The character of Muhammad (pbuh)

This may not be proof enough for you unbelievers but for Muslims this carries more weight than any of the "scientific theories" mentioned in this thread.

Peace

 

[Uthman]

Edit

 

[Whatsthepoint]

There is one simple answer...

Q: Why do we know the Quran is true???

A: The character of Muhammad (pbuh)

This may not be proof enough for you unbelievers but for Muslims this carries more weight than any of the "scientific theories" mentioned in this thread.

Peace

He was a capital fella, I have to admit that.

 

[Hamayun]

Edited.. Didn't mean to cause offence.

Mr Whatsthepoint: Thanks for playing nice

 

[Imam]

I would suggest another answer..:smile:

Q: Why do we know the Quran is true???

answer: The Quran

or what is called the internal evidence..
for me I have found more than enough internal evidence suggests it to be from a divine origin...... The Quran has more than just spiritual teachings and laws...

 

[syilla]

hi!

Q: How do we know that the Koran is true?

A: Because everytime i read the quran, it'll always give me an answer, advise and made me think deeper. And anyone who really sincere in reading and learning quran will know that it will never comes to an end.

 

[Thinker]

Q1) The Qur'an was written down on leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms, at the time of revelation, from the Prophet's dictation. When it was written down, it would be read back, to make sure that there weren't any mistakes. After the Prophet's death, it was codified, and Caliph 'Uthman made several bound copies of the Qur'an, to send to major Islamic provinces.

Why did Uthman destroy the original text after he 'codified' it? And, where are the original copies that Uthman created and why can they not be examined?

 

[Thinker]

hi!

Q: How do we know that the Koran is true?

A: Because everytime i read the quran, it'll always give me an answer, advise and made me think deeper. And anyone who really sincere in reading and learning quran will know that it will never comes to an end.

Could it be that you always find the answer because the Qur'an is so ambiguos that anyone can find the answer that they WANT to find and that's how we get Muslim 'A' saying it is a book commanding him to make war and Muslim 'B' saying it is a book of peace?

And, if the Qur'an always has the answer why has there been 1300 years of scholars and hadith interpretting it?

 

[Imam]

Could it be that you always find the answer because the Qur'an is so ambiguos that anyone can find the answer that they WANT to find

It seems that you feel that the Quran is ambiguous, but you have a golden chance to ask those who studied it academically to clarify it for you .. The Quran being inerrant has only one answer...

if you claim for a specific Quranic errancy,begin a thread in refutation section....

and that's how we get Muslim 'A' saying it is a book commanding him to make war and Muslim 'B' saying it is a book of peace?

A Muslim 'C' (who studied it objectively) saying it is a book commanding both (war &peace) making peace is the rule and war in necessity...

 

[جوري]

life isn't monochromatic, you have contrast.. how else would one tell the difference?
If we didn't have night, we'd only know of day, if we didn't have war you wouldn't know of peace, if you didn't have cold you wouldn't know of warmth.. if you didn't have sickness you wouldn't know of health, if you didn't have pain you wouldn't know of pleasure if you didn't have death you wouldn't know of life.. the secret to it is balance.. It is the human condition.
war could be about mischief and destruction but it can also be a medium to overthrow wickedness and establish justice.
Just simple observation and common sense.. Maybe it is cooler when the chinese speak of dualistic cosmology the Yin-Yang than when a Muslim explains why both verses are present in the Quran..
It isn't difficult to read things in context, and I believe it would shed light on the matter.. I don't think it per se Muslim number one is pillaging war-like monger
while b is a Pacifist.. If they are both equally read, they should reach the exact same conclusion to any given situation. Abu bakr (rA) had a completely different personality from Umar Ibn Ilhtab (RA) but when it came to the nitty of it, their understanding of Islam was complete!

My humble two cents

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Could it be that you always find the answer because the Qur'an is so ambiguos that anyone can find the answer that they WANT to find and that's how we get Muslim 'A' saying it is a book commanding him to make war and Muslim 'B' saying it is a book of peace?

And, if the Qur'an always has the answer why has there been 1300 years of scholars and hadith interpretting it?

I see your problem with the Quran now. You think the religion derived form it is subjective to whomever is reading it.


Well theres a simple solution to this. Ready?

Knowlege. Instead of us google scholaring we simply ask the scholars of Islam for their proofs, read tafsirs and hadiths, learn arabic and it's linguistic nuances and after we have done all of this, we would have completely erased ambiguities.

Too much work for you? Then don't try to intepret the Quran without the help of knowlegeable scholars.So.... lol at you for citing abmbiguity in the Quran with your ambiguous knowlege of it?

 

[muslimapoclyptc]

Why did Uthman destroy the original text after he 'codified' it?

To standardize the Qur'an in the Quraishi Arabic dialect. When Uthman got hold of all of the Qurans that were written in different dialects, and in some cases were altered to sound exactly like the other dialects, he ordered for them to get burnt because they did not use the proper Arabic that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and in some cases their words were different because of this dialect difference. He then compiled all of the Noble Surahs (Chapters) of the Noble Quran that were already written during the time of Prophet Muhammad in the city of Medina and formed what we call today the one true copy of the "Noble Quran".

And, where are the original copies that Uthman created and why can they not be examined?

There are many old copies of the Qur'an, that are purported to have been one of the 'Uthmanic copies, such as:

the one in Uzbekistan, the one in Turkey, and the one in Russia. You also have the one in Egypt, which is the perhaps the oldest one, and is either an 'Uthmanic copy, or an exact copy of the original. And obviously, you can see it, and look through it, as is apparent in the images.