You're not making sense. If it had not been for the doctor, the man would have died.
How do you know that Islam is the truth?
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You're not making sense. If it had not been for the doctor, the man would have died.
You can't deny that if not for the efforts made by us to know the truth, Allah may not have guided us at all.
If a fisherman don't throw out his net, he ain't going to catch fish.
If a person don't seek the truth he ain't gonna find the truth. Some people don't wanna know the truth, so you think Allah is ever gonna force it on them?
Have you heard the saying "no pain, no gain" or "you reap what you sow"?
Ummu Sufyaan
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ummm i haven't exactly this whole discussion, but saw this and thought i would reply.
actually, if it had not been for Allah, then the dr, the person would have died. the dr is merely a medium in which the cure was cured.
That's true but still if it had not been for the doctor, the person would have died. I don't think it's wrong to thank the doctor for saving your life. We would be highly ungrateful if we didn't.
In a narration by Abu Said, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: “One who does not thank people does not give thanks to Allah, either.” (Tirmidhi, Birr 35, 1955; Abu Dawud, Adab 12 4811).
So ya see. The bro makes no sense when he claims that we shouldn't thank the doctor. Becoz thanking the doctor wud B the same as thanking Allah. and what Muslim in his right mind would think that the doctor possessed the power to give life or death? If he did, then he clearly don't understand the meaning of la ilaha il allah.
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Quote:
You're not making sense. If it had not been for the doctor, the man would have died.
Unquote.
You have a point there.
1. I would not be making sense to anyone who does not acknowledge the supreme power and absolute authority of Allah;
2. I would not be making sense to anyone who believes that man has capabilities superior to that of Allah's;
3. I would not be making sense to anyone who believes that Allah allows anyone or anything to share our worship of Allah.
Just curious. If it had not been for Allah, where do you think you would be now?
Quote:
You're not making sense. If it had not been for the doctor, the man would have died.
Unquote.
You have a point there.
1. I would not be making sense to anyone who does not acknowledge the supreme power and absolute authority of Allah;
2. I would not be making sense to anyone who believes that man has capabilities superior to that of Allah's;
3. I would not be making sense to anyone who believes that Allah allows anyone or anything to share our worship of Allah.
Just curious. If it had not been for Allah, where do you think you would be now?
Walaikum assalam bro. I think I owe you an apology. I shoulda said "This don't make sense." It was bad manners to address u directly like that. So i hope you will forgive me.
Just because a person can die a kafir, don't mean that he should stop thinking and reasoning or studying islam.
In fact, if a person stop his thinking and reasoning, he would easily fall victim to Shaytan and mebbe die a kafir.
Correct me if I am wrong people.
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but thanking the Dr wasn't the problem though. attributing the cure to the dr whilst he/she was merely a means tp be cured, is what the discussion is.
reason and thinking within Islamic boundaries (whatever those boundaries maybe-if indeed there are boundaries) is tops. reasoning outside of Islamic boundaries is a no-go zone.
Sista, you ain't read the entire post of the brother and what he trying to get at. Pleez read the whole discussion from beginning to get betta idea.
What in the world does this mean?
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Aleacom aleacom warahmato Allah wabarakato
Hope the following is useful.
Logical Proofs
The Truth is One
islamreligion.com/articles/8/viewall
The True Religion: Which is the True Religion of God?
islamreligion.com/articles/448/viewall
Why The Religion of Islam?
islamreligion.com/articles/496
How Does Islam Differ from Other Faiths?
islamreligion.com/articles/643/viewall
A Brief Introduction to Islam
islamreligion.com/articles/1333/viewall
Seven Common Questions about Islam
islamreligion.com/articles/1562/viewall
What Drives People to Convert to Islam?
islamreligion.com/articles/1931/viewall
Accepting Islam: A religion for all People, in all Places; and the Religion of Forgiveness
islamreligion.com/articles/3727/viewall
The Core of Islam; the Origins of Islam; the Essential Beliefs of Islam; and Islamic Worship
islamreligion.com/articles/6/viewall
Wasalam aleacom
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really? well what part didn't i understand.
well you said
and what my post meant was that as long as this thinking and reasoning that you are speaking of is within Islamic boundaries then there is nothing wrong with it. and likewise if it isn't, then it should be disregarded. i also went on to mention that im not sure what these boundaries are, if indeed there were any.
Here is my proof, based on Dr Zakir Naiks explanation:
In Mathematics there is to be found a theory entitled the "Theory of Probability". This theory gives the probability of an event taking place or not taking place. For example, if one is to flip a coin- there is 50% chance for it to land "heads" and 50% chance for it to land "tails". Let's say that we want to find the probability of getting three heads in succesion. Getting "heads" gives us 50% chance, then if we flip again the chance is still 50% but because it is dependent on the first event be "heads", therefore, we need to multiply 0.5 (50%) by 0.5 to give us 0.25 or 25%. Similarly, to toss the coin the third time we must multiply 0.25 by 0.5 which is 0.125 or 12.5%.
If we apply the Theory of Probability to the Qur'an, and assume that a person has guessed all of the information that is mentioned in the Qur'an that which is unknown at the time the Qur'an was revealed.
At the time the Qur'an was first revealed, people had different theories of the Earth's shape. Some believed it to be flat, or triangular, quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, spherical, etc. If we assume that there could be a total of 30 different ideas on the structure of the Earth, then the chances of the Qur'an saying it is spherical is 1/30.
The light of the moon was also another aspect which was revealed. Some believed the moon to generate its own light, others believed it was reflected. The answer is that the moon appears to be illuminated due to reflection of light. So, the probabilty of the Qur'an revealing this fact is 0.5 or 1/2.
Also, up till the few decades, people did not know the structure of every living being- i.e. made of water. If we define 'living being'- this could be wood, plants, fish, steel, gold, humans, every catologued and unknown specie of animal, etc. The possible options could amount to let's say 100,000. The chance that Qur'an is correct is 1/100000 (as a general value).
Therefore, the chances of the Qur'an being correct in just these cases (there are many more) is 1/30 * 1/2 * 1/100000 - or (0.000000167). The Qur'an reveals these things centuries before the technology was there to prove it scientifically.
In Mathematics there is to be found a theory entitled the "Theory of Probability". This theory gives the probability of an event taking place or not taking place. For example, if one is to flip a coin- there is 50% chance for it to land "heads" and 50% chance for it to land "tails". Let's say that we want to find the probability of getting three heads in succesion. Getting "heads" gives us 50% chance, then if we flip again the chance is still 50% but because it is dependent on the first event be "heads", therefore, we need to multiply 0.5 (50%) by 0.5 to give us 0.25 or 25%. Similarly, to toss the coin the third time we must multiply 0.25 by 0.5 which is 0.125 or 12.5%.
If we apply the Theory of Probability to the Qur'an, and assume that a person has guessed all of the information that is mentioned in the Qur'an that which is unknown at the time the Qur'an was revealed.
At the time the Qur'an was first revealed, people had different theories of the Earth's shape. Some believed it to be flat, or triangular, quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, spherical, etc. If we assume that there could be a total of 30 different ideas on the structure of the Earth, then the chances of the Qur'an saying it is spherical is 1/30.
The light of the moon was also another aspect which was revealed. Some believed the moon to generate its own light, others believed it was reflected. The answer is that the moon appears to be illuminated due to reflection of light. So, the probabilty of the Qur'an revealing this fact is 0.5 or 1/2.
Also, up till the few decades, people did not know the structure of every living being- i.e. made of water. If we define 'living being'- this could be wood, plants, fish, steel, gold, humans, every catologued and unknown specie of animal, etc. The possible options could amount to let's say 100,000. The chance that Qur'an is correct is 1/100000 (as a general value).
Therefore, the chances of the Qur'an being correct in just these cases (there are many more) is 1/30 * 1/2 * 1/100000 - or (0.000000167). The Qur'an reveals these things centuries before the technology was there to prove it scientifically.
Forgot the most important bit:
The Qur'an reveals hundreds of things which were unknown at the time of revelation, and the chances that the Qur'an being correct guesses simultaneosly and not comprising of a single error if one can imagine is beyond human comprehension. Therefore, this in itself, is a proof to any logical person that the origin of the Qur'an is Divine (i.e. from Allah).
The Qur'an reveals hundreds of things which were unknown at the time of revelation, and the chances that the Qur'an being correct guesses simultaneosly and not comprising of a single error if one can imagine is beyond human comprehension. Therefore, this in itself, is a proof to any logical person that the origin of the Qur'an is Divine (i.e. from Allah).
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The Qur'an is unique (as far as I know) in that it doesn't just claim to be the word of the Creator and stop there. It also offers reasons as to why you should believe it is the word of the Creator. You find verses in the Qur'an such as:
"And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers." [2:25-26]
"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction." [4:82]
The first verse above refers to the linguistic inimitability of the Qur'an, where those who deny that it is from the Creator are challenged to produce one chapter like it. The second verse refers to the remarkable internal consistency of the Qur'an, given the fact that it was revealed over a period of 23 years, often instantaneously in response to an incident that was taking place, directing the Prophet and his followers to a course of action, or in response to a question that the Prophet was asked. Despite it never having been 'edited' or 're-drafted' over this period of revelation spanning more than two decades, never once does a verse contradict another. Moreover, the verses of the Qur'an aren't arranged chronologically in the order in which they were revealed. Rather, Muhammad (peace be upon him) instructed his companions as to the position where each verse should go. Despite this, all the verses fit together perfectly like the pieces of a puzzle to make a beautifully coherent masterpiece with unique, intricate rhythms and rhymes all serving to evoke particular reactions and emotions on the part of the reader/recitor. Again, there was never a need to edit or re-draft, as would be the case with any standard work which is the product of a human being (let alone an outstanding masterpiece). No, this was the speech of the Creator himself so why would such changes be necessary? I consider this to be one of the most profound aspects of the Qur'an's miraculous nature which not many people think about (hence the initial part of the verse). More details on it here.
Of course, there are other aspects of the Qur'an's miraculous nature from both a historical and scientific point of view, as well as prophecies. We could also talk about the miracle of it's preservation in it's original forrm, the ease by which it is memorised (to the extent that many children as young as 6 years old have easily memorised it in it's entirety, even before being able to speak normally in their own native language) and other aspects as well. But if we were to go into all that, I'm sure I'd be writing here all day. And that's no exaggeration - for the wonders of this divine book have no bound.
Another thing is that Muhammad (peace be upon him) clearly claimed to be receiving revelation from the Creator. One can only reasonably conclude that he was truthful in his claim since, by analysis of his biography, it is clear that the alternatives (that he was lying, mistaken or both) do not make sense. To claim that he mistakenly thought he was receiving revelation from the Creator of the universe for more than two decades and ended up producing what became renowned as the very standard of the Arabic tongue due to it's extraordinary linguistic excellence is of course absurd. Furthermore, Muhammad (peace be upon him) would have to be suffering from some form of mental illness to mistakenly believe such a thing, yet he showed no signs of mental deficiency in all other aspects of his life. To then resort to claiming that he must have been deliberately lying again does not stand up to scrutiny. To lie, one must have a motive. But Muhammad (peace be upon him) demonstrated that he was not motivated by wealth, power or any other material gains. Indeed, he was offered wealth and power simply to stop preaching his pure message of monotheism. He declined. In fact, he underwent a great deal of hardship just to preach his message when he could have chosen the easy way out. A cursory reading of Muhammad's life (peace be upon him) is enough to show that he cannot have been lying. If he cannot have been 'mistaken' about receiving revelation, and he demonstrably wasn't lying about it, there can only be one conclusion; he was telling the truth.
"And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers." [2:25-26]
"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction." [4:82]
The first verse above refers to the linguistic inimitability of the Qur'an, where those who deny that it is from the Creator are challenged to produce one chapter like it. The second verse refers to the remarkable internal consistency of the Qur'an, given the fact that it was revealed over a period of 23 years, often instantaneously in response to an incident that was taking place, directing the Prophet and his followers to a course of action, or in response to a question that the Prophet was asked. Despite it never having been 'edited' or 're-drafted' over this period of revelation spanning more than two decades, never once does a verse contradict another. Moreover, the verses of the Qur'an aren't arranged chronologically in the order in which they were revealed. Rather, Muhammad (peace be upon him) instructed his companions as to the position where each verse should go. Despite this, all the verses fit together perfectly like the pieces of a puzzle to make a beautifully coherent masterpiece with unique, intricate rhythms and rhymes all serving to evoke particular reactions and emotions on the part of the reader/recitor. Again, there was never a need to edit or re-draft, as would be the case with any standard work which is the product of a human being (let alone an outstanding masterpiece). No, this was the speech of the Creator himself so why would such changes be necessary? I consider this to be one of the most profound aspects of the Qur'an's miraculous nature which not many people think about (hence the initial part of the verse). More details on it here.
Of course, there are other aspects of the Qur'an's miraculous nature from both a historical and scientific point of view, as well as prophecies. We could also talk about the miracle of it's preservation in it's original forrm, the ease by which it is memorised (to the extent that many children as young as 6 years old have easily memorised it in it's entirety, even before being able to speak normally in their own native language) and other aspects as well. But if we were to go into all that, I'm sure I'd be writing here all day. And that's no exaggeration - for the wonders of this divine book have no bound.
Another thing is that Muhammad (peace be upon him) clearly claimed to be receiving revelation from the Creator. One can only reasonably conclude that he was truthful in his claim since, by analysis of his biography, it is clear that the alternatives (that he was lying, mistaken or both) do not make sense. To claim that he mistakenly thought he was receiving revelation from the Creator of the universe for more than two decades and ended up producing what became renowned as the very standard of the Arabic tongue due to it's extraordinary linguistic excellence is of course absurd. Furthermore, Muhammad (peace be upon him) would have to be suffering from some form of mental illness to mistakenly believe such a thing, yet he showed no signs of mental deficiency in all other aspects of his life. To then resort to claiming that he must have been deliberately lying again does not stand up to scrutiny. To lie, one must have a motive. But Muhammad (peace be upon him) demonstrated that he was not motivated by wealth, power or any other material gains. Indeed, he was offered wealth and power simply to stop preaching his pure message of monotheism. He declined. In fact, he underwent a great deal of hardship just to preach his message when he could have chosen the easy way out. A cursory reading of Muhammad's life (peace be upon him) is enough to show that he cannot have been lying. If he cannot have been 'mistaken' about receiving revelation, and he demonstrably wasn't lying about it, there can only be one conclusion; he was telling the truth.
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As salaam mualaikum.
This is getting more and more interesting. Actually this is the first time that I have heard that anyone had ever thought the earth was triangular, quadrangular, hexagonal, etc. btw I heard that there is a society of people who still believed that the earth is flat.
Just curious. Do you think it is good enough that there is just one tiny little chance in a gadzillion that the Quran might not be the truth? The way I understand it, if you have any doubt about the Quran, even if your doubt is only the size of a zarah, your iman is worth a grand total of zero. With zero iman, where do you think you might end up in akhirat?
My apologies for posting a wall of text earlier. I didn't realize that some people's minds go into screen saver mode after the first ten words. So I will have to do the weird thing of quoting from my own post.
Quote:
Let's go back to the first example about the doctor. It is definitely not the doctor who saved the man's life. Allah and Allah alone can give or take life. The doctor is just a means. The source of his ability is Allah. For the man to thank the doctor for saving his life is like thanking the postman who delivers a million-dollar check. Obviously it is not the postman who wrote the check. The postman just delivered it. That's all. The correct person to thank must be the one who wrote the check.
Does this mean that a Muslim would totally dispense with the services of a doctor? Not at all. What a Muslim does is pray that Allah will guide the doctor to give the right treatment. Then thank Allah, whatever the outcome, be it life or death. Of course, it is common courtesy to thank the doctor for his effort just as we would thank the postman for delivering the million-dollar check but a Muslim never says something like "Thank you, doctor, for saving my life" because a Muslim never forgets that it is Allah and Allah alone that has the power of life and death. Actually, a Muslim doctor would brush aside any thanks given to him and ask that thanks be given to Allah instead.
Unquote.
Just in case some people's minds still go into screen saver mode after reading the first ten words of the above quote, let me state clearly here that I consider it to be common courtesy to thank the doctor for his effort. I hope my viewpoint is clear now. Insha Allah.
Regarding the question of thinking and reasoning:
Quote:
Just because a person can die a kafir, don't mean that he should stop thinking and reasoning or studying Islam.
Unquote.
I do not think it is advisable at all to take the question of "can die a kafir" so lightly. Is there really any Muslim who would really consider the possibility of doing something that might make him "die a kafir"? Does the fire of nar hold no fear for him? How about trying this? Anyone who is not afraid of the fire of nar should actually put his hand into a burning fire first, then tell us that he is prepared to take the risk of "die a kafir". Any takers?
As for thinking and reasoning, it is all fine as long as the thinking and reasoning does not lead a person to think and reason that anything or anyone is greater than Allah or that anything or anyone possesses any of the power or authority of Allah. Just to make it clear, let me state here that anyone who thinks that it is his own thinking that gives him the answers has already denied the truth that Allah and Allah alone makes anything happen. Anything includes thinking. Seriously, how can anyone think if Allah does not allow it? Have you never seen or heard of people who cannot think at all? Or have you never seen or heard of people who have gone mad from thinking too much?
Hope this is useful. Insha Allah.
This is getting more and more interesting. Actually this is the first time that I have heard that anyone had ever thought the earth was triangular, quadrangular, hexagonal, etc. btw I heard that there is a society of people who still believed that the earth is flat.
Just curious. Do you think it is good enough that there is just one tiny little chance in a gadzillion that the Quran might not be the truth? The way I understand it, if you have any doubt about the Quran, even if your doubt is only the size of a zarah, your iman is worth a grand total of zero. With zero iman, where do you think you might end up in akhirat?
My apologies for posting a wall of text earlier. I didn't realize that some people's minds go into screen saver mode after the first ten words. So I will have to do the weird thing of quoting from my own post.
Quote:
Let's go back to the first example about the doctor. It is definitely not the doctor who saved the man's life. Allah and Allah alone can give or take life. The doctor is just a means. The source of his ability is Allah. For the man to thank the doctor for saving his life is like thanking the postman who delivers a million-dollar check. Obviously it is not the postman who wrote the check. The postman just delivered it. That's all. The correct person to thank must be the one who wrote the check.
Does this mean that a Muslim would totally dispense with the services of a doctor? Not at all. What a Muslim does is pray that Allah will guide the doctor to give the right treatment. Then thank Allah, whatever the outcome, be it life or death. Of course, it is common courtesy to thank the doctor for his effort just as we would thank the postman for delivering the million-dollar check but a Muslim never says something like "Thank you, doctor, for saving my life" because a Muslim never forgets that it is Allah and Allah alone that has the power of life and death. Actually, a Muslim doctor would brush aside any thanks given to him and ask that thanks be given to Allah instead.
Unquote.
Just in case some people's minds still go into screen saver mode after reading the first ten words of the above quote, let me state clearly here that I consider it to be common courtesy to thank the doctor for his effort. I hope my viewpoint is clear now. Insha Allah.
Regarding the question of thinking and reasoning:
Quote:
Just because a person can die a kafir, don't mean that he should stop thinking and reasoning or studying Islam.
Unquote.
I do not think it is advisable at all to take the question of "can die a kafir" so lightly. Is there really any Muslim who would really consider the possibility of doing something that might make him "die a kafir"? Does the fire of nar hold no fear for him? How about trying this? Anyone who is not afraid of the fire of nar should actually put his hand into a burning fire first, then tell us that he is prepared to take the risk of "die a kafir". Any takers?
As for thinking and reasoning, it is all fine as long as the thinking and reasoning does not lead a person to think and reason that anything or anyone is greater than Allah or that anything or anyone possesses any of the power or authority of Allah. Just to make it clear, let me state here that anyone who thinks that it is his own thinking that gives him the answers has already denied the truth that Allah and Allah alone makes anything happen. Anything includes thinking. Seriously, how can anyone think if Allah does not allow it? Have you never seen or heard of people who cannot think at all? Or have you never seen or heard of people who have gone mad from thinking too much?
Hope this is useful. Insha Allah.
Asalaamu Alaykum, I can give you a copy of my book to prove God's existence.. (BTW only 18 and is only a working progress)..
Everyone in the world has doubt. Doubt in the Creator, His Prohets, and His Books.
If you use my explanation as proof of the Quran being Divine, then the chances that the Quran not being Divine is like 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 %, etc. And the chances the Quran being written by Muhamad (SA) is absolute 0, 0%, zilch... because the Prophet (SA) was illiterate, i.e. was unable to read and write.
Also, the fact that Millions of Muslims throughout the History of Islam have commited the Quran to memory is proof that it is Divine. There has never been a person in my understanding memorising word-for-word 600+ pages of anything and learnt the deep meaning of something, even let's say the Bible.
Also, if you take for example, some Sahaba commited to memory 400,000+ Ahadith... which is near-on impossible to memorize word-for-word.. Allah has made aquiring knowledge an absolute zeal amongst Humans.. Idris (AS) once said: "The real joy of life is to have wisdom."
Hope this helps you and all brothers and sisters in this world to eliminate even an atom's weight of doubt. Ameen.
Everyone in the world has doubt. Doubt in the Creator, His Prohets, and His Books.
If you use my explanation as proof of the Quran being Divine, then the chances that the Quran not being Divine is like 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 %, etc. And the chances the Quran being written by Muhamad (SA) is absolute 0, 0%, zilch... because the Prophet (SA) was illiterate, i.e. was unable to read and write.
Also, the fact that Millions of Muslims throughout the History of Islam have commited the Quran to memory is proof that it is Divine. There has never been a person in my understanding memorising word-for-word 600+ pages of anything and learnt the deep meaning of something, even let's say the Bible.
Also, if you take for example, some Sahaba commited to memory 400,000+ Ahadith... which is near-on impossible to memorize word-for-word.. Allah has made aquiring knowledge an absolute zeal amongst Humans.. Idris (AS) once said: "The real joy of life is to have wisdom."
Hope this helps you and all brothers and sisters in this world to eliminate even an atom's weight of doubt. Ameen.
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Quote:
Everyone in the world has doubt. Doubt in the Creator, His Prohets, and His Books.
Unquote.
Please remove ThisOldMan from your list of "everyone".
1. I have no doubt whatsoever about Allah.
2. I have no doubt whatsoever about Malaikat.
3. I have no doubt whatsoever about Kitab.
4. I have no doubt whatsoever about Rasul.
5. I have no doubt whatsoever about Kiamat.
6. I have no doubt whatsoever about Qada and Qadar.
fyi the six items above comprise the full list of Rukun Iman. I learned about them in the Malay language. In the English language, I think "Rukun Iman" would translate as "Principles of Iman". I was taught that a Muslim cannot have any doubt whatsoever about Rukun Iman. Just curious. Did you learn something different?
Quote:
Everyone in the world has doubt. Doubt in the Creator, His Prohets, and His Books.
Unquote.
Please remove ThisOldMan from your list of "everyone".
1. I have no doubt whatsoever about Allah.
2. I have no doubt whatsoever about Malaikat.
3. I have no doubt whatsoever about Kitab.
4. I have no doubt whatsoever about Rasul.
5. I have no doubt whatsoever about Kiamat.
6. I have no doubt whatsoever about Qada and Qadar.
fyi the six items above comprise the full list of Rukun Iman. I learned about them in the Malay language. In the English language, I think "Rukun Iman" would translate as "Principles of Iman". I was taught that a Muslim cannot have any doubt whatsoever about Rukun Iman. Just curious. Did you learn something different?
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You're right, Ubeyde. Good point! What a good thing it is to have doubts! Doubts can only be destroyed by using our power of thought and reasoning, which the Qur'an and Sunnah command us to do. Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!
And when our doubts are destroyed, our faith (iman) gets stronger.
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Not even an atom's weight of doubt remains.
Jazakallah khair for a very interesting and valuable post.