How does Allah forgive sins?

[MidnightRose]

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
...but since God is eternally good, He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus to willingly die for all mankind and give eternal life to those that accept Christ as their savior. This is how God has taken the sins of all mankind onto Himself so that anyone who believes in Jesus can have eternal life with Him.

Greetings TruthFollower,

I don't believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I plan on leaving my earthly life in this way, not returning to God in, as you have mentioned, perfect goodness.

Based on the above, I can't have eternal life with God.

It seems that my sin of infidelity isn't forgiven. Why have I been excluded from forgiveness and the subsequent eternal life with the, as you mention, perfect God?

As I said, I do not and will never believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
This conclusion you have come to is your own choosing. I have no right to threaten your life in order to coerce you to believe in Jesus. This is exactly why God has given us free will so that we may freely choose to follow Him or not. When I die, it will be because God has taken my life because He is pleased with me or displeased with me. God is eternal life, no beginning and no end, so when we die we will meet him and be judged. There is no escaping God.

Originally Posted by najimuddin

If I can continue to sin, and you say I will be judged, this perfect God that sacrificed Jesus Christ didn't destroy sin. According to your highlighted statements above, I'll be punished for my disobedience.

Originally Posted by TruthFollower
If you knowingly continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of salvation, you will be judged even more harshly than someone who does not know that what they do is sin. This is evidence of God's Holy Spirit at work in us, He continually convicts us of our sin and we repent and are refined to the image of Jesus Christ who was and is perfect. This is called sanctification, the process where we submit ourselves fully to God's Holy Spirit and He makes us into a new creation. God draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Originally Posted by najimuddin
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

May the Lord guide us all. Ameen.

Thank you for your time. Yes, may the Lord guide us in spirit and in truth.

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell.

Greetings again TruthFollower,

Would I be correct in saying that because I will :ia: never become sanctified, my penalty will be an eternity in Hell after a harsh judgement?

This harsh judgement will be due to my sin of knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

From what I understand, God will destroy me for this. And, according to the above, this destruction will be an eternity in Hell.

The life He creates will live on forever, the life He destroys, due to sin, will not.

Please keep in mind of what I mentioned in the above posts.

 

[Insaanah]

What brings about the Day of Judgement?

Christians believe there will be an abomination that causes desolation in the latter days which will begin the end time Great Tribulation. This Great Tribulation is God's judgment on all the ungodly of the earth, some will come out saved, but most will suffer God's wrath for their ungodliness and after this Great Tribulation, Jesus will come back and establish peace for a 1000yrs, the way it was always meant to be and from there eternal life for all those that God loves.

Is there a trigger that causes the end time Day of Judgement from Allah?

I'll try to find a comprehensive link on the day of judgement and events leading up to it and post it in this thread, God willing.

If there is, why doesn't Allah love to forgive this trigger that causes the Day of Judgement?

Any trigger for the Day of Judgement is totally unrelated to sin. The day of judgement has a fixed time, when it will happen, and we don't know when that is. However, there are some signs that have to be fulfilled before it can happen.

This thread has been about the concept of forgiveness vs atonement. You believe your sins are atoned for by what you perceive to be the death and resurrection of Christ, peace be on him. We believe that our sins, can be forgiven, without a price such as happens in atonement. As I mentioned in my previous post, Allah forgives whom He wishes. We need to ask sincerely, to repent, to try our best not to repeat past mistakes.

Does he decide to stop loving to forgive sin and begin hating sin? This is what I don't understand about Allah, he loves to forgive sin therefore he has no reason to stop people from sinning because he loves to forgive them, forever.

This is no different to asking, well if Jesus died for everyone's sins, on the day of judgement, is his death not a waste if there are no more people whose sins he could have died for.

Regardless, I will answer it.

Does he decide to stop loving to forgive sin and begin hating sin?

I don't remember mentioning anywhere that God loves sin. Forgiving sin does not mean sin is loved. Yet despite us sinning, God loves to forgive His slaves, if they truly repent, are truly sorry, ask sincerely, and try their best to avoid past mistakes. So the question "does God begin to hate sin", does not come into the picture here.

By this logic, there will never be an end time Day of Judgement, if anything, humanity will become perfect in Allah's view because everyone will being doing good deeds and not bad deeds, therefore he will no longer need to forgive anyone, but this might make him mad because he loves to forgive sin. Do you see why I'm confused?

I think you have confused yourself. Islam is based on truth that resonates with the heart and mind, and the truth is simple and clear, nothing complex nor convoluted about it.

By this logic, there will never be an end time Day of Judgement

That's by your own logic, nothing I've said implies that. The day of Judgement has a fixed time, and will happen then, and its timing has nothing to do with sin per se.

if anything, humanity will become perfect in Allah's view because everyone will being doing good deeds and not bad deeds

You don't do deeds on the day of judgement. That is the day of being judged.

therefore he will no longer need to forgive anyone

Allah is so merciful that even on the day of judgement, there are still some chances. There are numerous opportunities of forgiveness and mercy on that Day eg. various types of intercession, people entering paradise without reckoning, and even after people have been put into Hellfire, some people will be removed by Allah's mercy.

but this might make him mad because he loves to forgive sin.

Please speak with respect about God. Once you acknowledge that God is Glorified and Exalted, then you would know that He exhibits each of His attributes to us in a manner befitting His Majesty, as and when and how He wishes, not confined to our limited sphere of thinking, as He is all Knowing, all Wise.

Do you see why I'm confused?

I am not sure why simplicity and clarity seems so hard for you, and everything has to be so convoluted and complicated.

Also, it's important to point out that God of the Bible loves believers and unbelievers, but He hates sin and wants to destroy sin in our life and spare us from His wrath against sin and evil. He has done this through Jesus Christ.

And according to Christianity, should anyone not accept Jesus as saviour, then they are doomed to hell?

Allah doesn't seem to mind sin, he actually loves to forgive it, but he does not love the unbelievers.

QUR’AN 3:31-32—SAY [O MUHAMMAD]: IF YOU LOVE ALLAH, THEN FOLLOW ME, ALLAH WILL LOVE YOU AND FORGIVE YOU YOUR FAULTS, AND ALLAH IS FORGIVING, MERCIFUL. SAY: OBEY ALLAH AND THE APOSTLE; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT LOVE THE UNBELIEVERS.

This also implies that Allah is more interested in making unbelievers into muslims, rather than freeing them from their sin, but I understand you don't believe we need freed from our sin.

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”, He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active. Your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.

Allah doesn't seem to mind sin, he actually loves to forgive it, but he does not love the unbelievers.

Sin is certainly not liked in Islam either, even though Allah is so merciful so as to love forgiving his truly repentant slaves who are sorry for what they've done.

In Islam, we are not commanded to love everyone regardless of anything, not to hate everyone regardless of anything. We adopt a balance, just, middle course. There will be people we love more than others, naturally, and in different ways. And not loving someone, does not equate to hate. We have concern for a person's guidance and rectification and salvation.

This also implies that Allah is more interested in making unbelievers into muslims, rather than freeing them from their sin, but I understand you don't believe we need freed from our sin.

As I've said before, and will say again, this life is our test. We have been given guidance and instruction, through the prophets and messengers God sent, on how to live, and how to worship him Him, and been informed that we will have to account for our deeds on judgment day. This world, is not for God to intervene in, but for us to try our best in following God's guidance. There is no concept of having to free someone from sin. Our good and bad deeds will be judged on judgement day, by The Most Just. He is the Most Merciful, so we have hope on that day too.

The bible teaches that God is not interested in “making you a Christian”,

Which is why I presume, if you don't accept Jesus as saviour (ie become a Christian), you are doomed to hell?

He desires to save you from the penalty of your sins which is an eternity in Hell. God’s salvation is a free gift that only needs to be received to become active. Your sins in exchange for His righteousness and a full and free eternal pardon.

God's guidance to mankind is a free gift, that should be received and accepted, not a bloody torturous sacrifice.

God has free will as well, what if His plan all along was to save those who believe in Him from their sin? It's not God's fault that we sin, but even still, what if out of His great love He still chose to save us from it, even while we were sinners? A free gift that we just have to accept. Allah has no desire to save us from our sin, he only wants to forgive continually, which means an end time Day of Judgement would be illogical. If it's Allah's plan to continually forgive sin forever and never destroy this earth and create new, then that's fine, but I'm not sure that that's what Islam teaches, therefore inconsistent theology that I have a hard time believing. I understand you think God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is illogical and thats fine as well, but I respectfully disagree. After all as humans we are made up of spirit, soul and body, 3 in 1.

Imagine if somebody leaves a message on your answerphone. "Truthfollower, there's a multimillion dollar palace awaiting you, the owner loves you and wants you to have it, all you have to do is ring this number, pay $100 admin fee, and confirm your acceptance, and it's all yours, for free." You'd most likely delete it as a scam, or perhaps report it to the police. But what if they also said to you, that "if you don't accept this offer, you'll become homeless and have nowhere to go". Now you'd feel scared, pressured even perhaps. For you to pay the $100 dollar believing you were going to get this house, you'd have to be quite gullible. Thats just a matter of this world. All you'd have lost was nothing or perhaps $100 dollars. But what about when you gamble with your life in the hereafter, your very salvation? The issue of salvation seems to be the biggest obstacle for Christians who can see that Islamic teachings resonate with the heart and mind, are clear and simple. They know the concept of God and of forgiveness as opposed to vicarious atonement, makes sense. But they can't give up the fact that they feel they have a free ticket to heaven. They cling on to it. Even though they know it doesn't make sense. False hope is a bad thing.

As I have said and will say yet again, we believe this life is a test, we have been given guidance, and we can do good or bad, and we will be judged according to that on the day of judgement. Simple. What is complicated about that? If you sit an exam it is marked, and you get results. It is as simple as that. On the Day of Judgement, there will be people who go to heaven, and people that go to hell. But nobody enters paradise without God's mercy. And God will be merciful to many on that day too, before people are sent to heaven or hell, as already mentioned.

Allah has no desire to save us from our sin

If that was the case, then he would not have sent prophets and messengers to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. They endured hardships to convey His message to us. Allah has sent Prophets throughout the ages who would spend years and years, day and night, calling their people to the right path with the aid of scriptures, logical arguments and miracles. They would endure ridicule, exile and even death for the sake of this. This is a manifestation of Allah’s Mercy and concern for the whole of mankind and how His Prophets were also keen for their people's guidance.

The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

The Qur’an expresses a desire for people to be guided and to turn away from that which will harm them.

he only wants to forgive continually, which means an end time Day of Judgement would be illogical.

I have already explained this above.

If it's Allah's plan to continually forgive sin forever and never destroy this earth and create new, then that's fine, but I'm not sure that that's what Islam teaches, therefore inconsistent theology that I have a hard time believing.

I am sorry if you don't understand what I wrote. You are free to believe or not to, as part of your free will. We just convey the message.

I understand you think God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is illogical and thats fine as well, but I respectfully disagree. After all as humans we are made up of spirit, soul and body, 3 in 1.

We have heard all the main analogies:

egg - white yolk shell,
water - solid liquid gas,
woman - mother sister daughter,
flame - light heat and fire,
pottery - clay fire and water

pretty much all of them, to attempt to explain the trinity, none of which succeeds. Incidentally we believe that we have souls inside our bodies. We do not believe in a spirit aspect.

Peace.

 

[OmAbdullah]

Yes, God having created man in His image, created man with free will, just like God has free will to do as He pleases. However, God is all knowing, all logically powerful and omnipresent, we are not. When He created perfect beings with free will, some freely chose to not listen to Him, causing sin/evil to enter His creation. In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins. Jesus also being God did this by the power of God, not of man. In going to the cross and willingly laying down his life for all, God was able to destroy evil and sin and bring His creation back to Himself in perfect goodness. This is all God's perfect doing, man's only contribution is sin and evil.

Jesus is the new Adam, a perfect sinless Adam who lived and died for all people by the power of God's love, mercy, forgiveness and righteous judgment.





Thank you for this, but does Allah have a way to destroy sin and evil forever? He can grant forgiveness forever, but man will continue to sin against him, unless he has a way to destroy sin and evil and restore his creation to perfection. It seems under Allah, man will just forever continue to sin and ask for forgiveness, there is never a real solution that destroys sin and evil forever. It seems a perfect God would be able to destroy sin forever so that we never have to ask for forgiveness again because we are made perfect by God. Christianity believes God has made us perfect through Jesus Christ and when we die as Jesus did we will be resurrected with perfect immortal bodies as Jesus was.

Thanks for your insight

In fact you are deceiving yourself. Your belief is that all those Christians who are committing horrible crimes like they have filled up the land of Allah with killing and blood-shed are forgiven and will not be punished for their killing. This is a very bad accusation on God who is High Above any defect. God cannot be unjust and is the Greatest of Judges. So God shall pass judgment and everyone shall be accounted for his/her faith and deeds. The very first question shall be about faith. God is the Creator, is above all the creatures and didn't allow anyone to associate parter or relative or helper to HIM. God is One, Single and Unique. None can be HIS son or equal. So at that time you will ask Jesus to help you but he will hate you. Check my point in your own Bible. You will find it true.

So when you are caught on that Very Great Day of Judgment, you will have no way to escape but the only place for you will be the Ever-Lasting Fire. then you shall remember the advice of sincere Muslims but in vain. So this is the only time to use your mind and choose the Truth of Islam. If you don't then you are harming no one except yourself. May Allah guide you to use your wisdom and protect yourself from the Ever-Lasting Hell, aameen.

 

[Futuwwa]

Is final judgement when you die? Or at the end of time? Either way, you're never actually forgiven until after death or at the end of time? If this is the case, why does repentance please Allah if he doesn't offer forgiveness until death or end of time? In other words, I could repent to Allah all I want and never feel forgiven because He doesn't' offer forgiveness until I die or at the end of time.

So sin is not a problem to Allah? Why does he need to forgive sin if sin is not a problem?

You're not getting it. The notion of sin being some objective reality, a metaphysical condition a person can be in, is uniquely Christian. In Islam, it isn't. It's just a concept used to describe violation of God's commandments. It's not a state of being.

 

[TruthFollower]

I'll try to find a comprehensive link on the day of judgement and events leading up to it and post it in this thread, God willing.

Thank you, I appreciate that. May we all trust that God wants us to honestly question so that we may know the Truth by His grace and not of ourselves.

Any trigger for the Day of Judgement is totally unrelated to sin. The day of judgement has a fixed time, when it will happen, and we don't know when that is. However, there are some signs that have to be fulfilled before it can happen.

It seems as though Allah has created us in this universe only to test us.

This thread has been about the concept of forgiveness vs atonement. You believe your sins are atoned for by what you perceive to be the death and resurrection of Christ, peace be on him. We believe that our sins, can be forgiven, without a price such as happens in atonement. As I mentioned in my previous post, Allah forgives whom He wishes. We need to ask sincerely, to repent, to try our best not to repeat past mistakes.

This is no different to asking, well if Jesus died for everyone's sins, on the day of judgement, is his death not a waste if there are no more people whose sins he could have died for.

Jesus' death would be pointless if it was not to save all from God's wrath against satan and evil, which caused sin in man. God has and is and will defeat satan and his followers. I'm sure you also hope and pray for the destruction of satan and evil and sin?

I don't remember mentioning anywhere that God loves sin.

I didn't say He does. I said that Allah loves to forgive sin, but doesn't necessarily hate sin. My understanding of Allah is coming from you.

Forgiving sin does not mean sin is loved. Yet despite us sinning, God loves to forgive His slaves, if they truly repent, are truly sorry, ask sincerely, and try their best to avoid past mistakes. So the question "does God begin to hate sin", does not come into the picture here.

I don't want to worship a god who doesn't hate sin. I hate sin because it's caused by evil, therefore it would make sense that the God I worship hated sin and evil before I did. However, because of God's mercy, he allows sin and evil in order to fulfill His plan of redemption. So the God I worship allows evil because it's leading to an everlasting good that He can clearly see because He's all knowing, but I cannot see because of my limited perspective, but eventually I will see.

1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I think you have confused yourself. Islam is based on truth that resonates with the heart and mind, and the truth is simple and clear, nothing complex nor convoluted about it.

I don't want to rely on man for truth, I want to rely on God's truth. I'm sure you agree.

I am not sure why simplicity and clarity seems so hard for you, and everything has to be so convoluted and complicated.

I'm sorry, it is becoming more clear to me that Allah is not a God I want to worship, simply because He doesn't seem to hate sin caused by evil. The God I worship, loves His creation, but hates evil which has tainted His creation with sin, therefore He has chosen to send His only begotten Son to die for all, that all who believe will be saved from their sin and ultimately saved from His righteous wrath against satan and sin.

And according to Christianity, should anyone not accept Jesus as saviour, then they are doomed to hell?

God will continue to try and reach you. You wouldn't be alive if God did not have a plan to save you. Those who reject Christ to their death will have to face God's wrath against them as sinners.

Sin is certainly not liked in Islam either, even though Allah is so merciful so as to love forgiving his truly repentant slaves who are sorry for what they've done.

True believers of Jesus, hate sin because it's caused by evil and a true believer is viewed as a child of God, not a slave of God.

In Islam, we are not commanded to love everyone regardless of anything, not to hate everyone regardless of anything. We adopt a balance, just, middle course. There will be people we love more than others, naturally, and in different ways. And not loving someone, does not equate to hate. We have concern for a person's guidance and rectification and salvation.

Under Christ, we are commanded to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and love each other as ourselves.

As I've said before, and will say again, this life is our test. We have been given guidance and instruction, through the prophets and messengers God sent, on how to live, and how to worship him Him, and been informed that we will have to account for our deeds on judgment day. This world, is not for God to intervene in, but for us to try our best in following God's guidance. There is no concept of having to free someone from sin. Our good and bad deeds will be judged on judgement day, by The Most Just. He is the Most Merciful, so we have hope on that day too.

Under Christ, the purpose of my life on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He's done. Why would God create anything other than to glorify Himself?

We have heard all the main analogies:

egg - white yolk shell,
water - solid liquid gas,
woman - mother sister daughter,
flame - light heat and fire,
pottery - clay fire and water

pretty much all of them, to attempt to explain the trinity, none of which succeeds. Incidentally we believe that we have souls inside our bodies. We do not believe in a spirit aspect.

Peace.

I'm glad you're open to understanding what true Christians believe.

 

[TruthFollower]

Greetings again TruthFollower,

Would I be correct in saying that because I will :ia: never become sanctified, my penalty will be an eternity in Hell after a harsh judgement?

I think it's silly for one to say that something will never happen to them. Anything that's possible in this reality could happen to any one of us at any time.

This harsh judgement will be due to my sin of knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

True.

From what I understand, God will destroy me for this. And, according to the above, this destruction will be an eternity in Hell.
Please keep in mind of what I mentioned in the above posts.

Occasionally when someone accepts Christ as their savior, it's because they are experiencing "hell on earth", a traumatic experience. It is true that when you become a true Christian, your old sinful nature is destroyed and you become a new person, ready to love and serve others to the glory of God. This is God at work in you, not of your own doing, all you've contributed is sin.

I think it's quite simple and beautiful how God works in His creation in order to restore it to sinless perfection devoid of evil. From our perspective this is an ongoing process, but from God's perspective it is finished. He has a unique perspective

 

[Search]

:bism:

Brother, thank you for your interest in this subject and your willingness to try to understand the subject.

Please understand Islam doesn't believe in a "sinful" human nature as all our souls are divine and pure and devoid of evil. However, the nafs (blameworhty ego) makes designs to gain mastery over the individual; and when that individual's nafs (blameworthy self) overpowers the soul, this leads to sin. Also, Islam maintains the view that even the best of humanity cannot have any inclination to sin destroyed, only mastered with control over the nafs (blameworthy ego).

In Islam, sinless perfection is not attributed to human beings but only God. Allah SWT has a unique perspective, that is true; and in Islam, the unique perspective of Allah SWT is that Allah SWT honored us as creation and that honor means that Allah SWT is merciful enough to forgive sins within the framework of owning up to personal responsibility in committing those sins and then knowing within the framework of owning the highest opinion of God that God has forgiven those sins regardless of the nature or smallness or bigness of the sins.

It is true that when you become a true Christian, your old sinful nature is destroyed and you become a new person, ready to love and serve others to the glory of God. This is God at work in you, not of your own doing, all you've contributed is sin.

I think it's quite simple and beautiful how God works in His creation in order to restore it to sinless perfection devoid of evil. From our perspective this is an ongoing process, but from God's perspective it is finished. He has a unique perspective

 

[MidnightRose]

I think it's silly for one to say that something will never happen to them. Anything that's possible in this reality could happen to any one of us at any time.

What you may think is silly, is actually very serious.

You have said that someone who dies knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be destroyed in Hell for eternity after a harsh judgement. You have said this explicitly in the above posts.

This person who knowingly rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is a disbeliever, who will be deprived of eternal life with God, as he or she will be put in Hell for eternity.

From what you have told me, this perfect God that you mention, does not love people who die as unbelievers that knowingly reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. It seems, from what you have mentioned above, that they are also associated with Satan.

From this it is clear to me that all are not saved by the perfect God who sacrificed Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not die for all of humankind's sins. Jesus Christ dying on the cross did not save the people who have died committing the most egregious sin - knowingly rejecting him as Lord and Savior.

 

[TruthFollower]

What you may think is silly, is actually very serious.

Yes, dying while rejecting the truth of God is very serious indeed. However, you nor I have experienced physical death so we don't know what happens. It is possible that right before physical death God intervenes and gives a last chance of acceptance of His Truth. I don't know for sure of course, but knowing how merciful God is, I could see this as a possibility. The Bible teaches that every tongue will confess, either willingly before physical death or unwillingly after physical death.

Romans 14:11
It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"

One reason I'm alive is so that I can read these words and have fear of the Lord, which motivates me to seek Him and do His will so that I can feel His love.

You have said that someone who dies knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will be destroyed in Hell for eternity after a harsh judgement. You have said this explicitly in the above posts.

No human alive today knows exactly how this plays out because we haven't died yet, but one thing is certain and that is that God is the righteous judge, there will be no excuses when He judges.

This person who knowingly rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is a disbeliever, who will be deprived of eternal life with God, as he or she will be put in Hell for eternity.

From what you have told me, this perfect God that you mention, does not love people who die as unbelievers that knowingly reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. It seems, from what you have mentioned above, that they are also associated with Satan.

From this it is clear to me that all are not saved by the perfect God who sacrificed Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not die for all of humankind's sins. Jesus Christ dying on the cross did not save the people who have died committing the most egregious sin - knowingly rejecting him as Lord and Savior.

God can't stop people from rejecting Him and therefore being rejected by Him. Why would God be obligated to love someone who has rejected Him to their death? He'll do all He can to show you the misery of separation from Him in this life, but what happens after this life, only God knows. The truth either hurts for awhile in this life and then turns to joy or it hurts eternally in the next and joy is never found again. The truth can give freedom from sin in this life, which results in pure peace and joy and freedom from death and evil in the next, which results in pure eternal peace and joy.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you TruthFollower; and welcome to the forum from a Catholic,

I don't want to rely on man for truth, I want to rely on God's truth. I'm sure you agree.

I always feel the truth means more, when we use it to try and change ourselves, rather than when we use it to try and change other people.

Having been on this forum for ten years now, I have a profound respect for my Muslim brothers and sisters. They fear God, pray five times a day, observe fasts, dress modestly and they take families seriously.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

 

[TruthFollower]

:bism:

Brother, thank you for your interest in this subject and your willingness to try to understand the subject.

Please understand Islam doesn't believe in a "sinful" human nature as all our souls are divine and pure and devoid of evil. However, the nafs (blameworhty ego) makes designs to gain mastery over the individual; and when that individual's nafs (blameworthy self) overpowers the soul, this leads to sin. Also, Islam maintains the view that even the best of humanity cannot have any inclination to sin destroyed, only mastered with control over the nafs (blameworthy ego).

In Islam, sinless perfection is not attributed to human beings but only God. Allah SWT has a unique perspective, that is true; and in Islam, the unique perspective of Allah SWT is that Allah SWT honored us as creation and that honor means that Allah SWT is merciful enough to forgive sins within the framework of owning up to personal responsibility in committing those sins and then knowing within the framework of owning the highest opinion of God that God has forgiven those sins regardless of the nature or smallness or bigness of the sins.

Thank you for your response. My issue with this is that it seems as if Allah is able to forgive any sin no matter what it is and therefore sin in man is not a problem to him. If sin in man is not a problem to Allah, why does he view it as needing to be forgiven?

If sin in man is a problem to Allah, then how does he plan to destroy it so that we can be eternally forgiven(never having to ask for forgiveness again) or has he already provided a way to destroy it and offer eternal forgiveness, not just temporary forgiveness until we sin again?

If Allah does not provide a way to destroy/erase sin, then man will continue to sin and continue to require forgiveness, forever. Is this what Allah wants? Or is it that man can destroy/erase/forgive his own sin by doing good deeds?

 

[TruthFollower]

Greetings and peace be with you TruthFollower; and welcome to the forum from a Catholic,



I always feel the truth means more, when we use it to try and change ourselves, rather than when we use it to try and change other people.

Having been on this forum for ten years now, I have a profound respect for my Muslim brothers and sisters. They fear God, pray five times a day, observe fasts, dress modestly and they take families seriously.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

Thank you for this, I agree and can already tell that Muslims are not afraid to think deeply about Allah and ask themselves honest questions in regards to him and his word.

God has given us life and expects us to use are minds and hearts to ponder about His word and truth, so that we may come to a stronger faith in Him by His grace.

 

[Insaanah]

The notion of sin being some objective reality, a metaphysical condition a person can be in, is uniquely Christian. In Islam, it isn't. It's just a concept used to describe violation of God's commandments. It's not a state of being.

I've put this here for info, as I think it's very helpful.

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It seems as though Allah has created us in this universe only to test us.

Yes. As I have said, our life here is temporary, a test. The purpose of our existence, is that we should worship Allah alone, without any associates, parts, persons to the exclusive divinity that belongs only and solely and uniquely to Him. Allah created the world, and created us, not just to work, eat, sleep, have children and die into nothingness. Rather than leaving us fumbling in the dark as to what we should do, what we should believe about Him, how we should worship Him, how we should live, how we should avoid bad, from His mercy, He sent us prophets and messengers throughout the ages, to convey His message to us and to show us how to live and worship Him. These include, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last and final messenger, Muhammad, peace be on them all. All of them conveyed the same core message, not different messages. The message was that we should submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

As part of our free will, once we hear that message, we have the choice to accept or reject. We have the choice to do good or bad, and as a result, to incur reward or sin. Sin is a consequence of deeds, same as reward is a consequence of deeds. After death, we will be resurrected on the day of judgement, and be brought to account for our deeds, and be judged. Our sin, our reward will be weighed up in the Divine scales of justice. Allah will be Just on that day. Those who may have escaped worldly justice, will not be able to escape and will face absolute justice. It is through His mercy that those who enter paradise will enter it.

Jesus' death would be pointless if it was not to save all from God's wrath against satan and evil, which caused sin in man. God has and is and will defeat satan and his followers. I'm sure you also hope and pray for the destruction of satan and evil and sin?

Had it happened, it would have been. Because if we repent sincerely, and ask for forgiveness, try our best not to repeat past mistakes, God can forgive us simply by His will. A perfect God doesn't pay a price.

Satan has been reprieved until the day of Judgement, and he will try and mislead men. This is part of the test. We have been warned against him. We ask God to help us do those deeds pleasing to Him, and to avoid sin, we ask him to help us to avoid those deeds that incur His anger, and we ask that if we have erred, that God forgive us, pardon us, overlook our faults, have mercy on us, and forgive our sins. We also seek refuge in Him against His anger and punishment.

I said that Allah loves to forgive sin, but doesn't necessarily hate sin.

In one of the chapters of the Qur'an, just as one example, a number of evil deeds that incur great sin are mentioned. The next verse says, "The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord." (17:38)

It is followed straight by another verse: "That is from what your Lord has revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of wisdom. And, [O mankind], do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and banished. "(17:39)

I don't want to worship a god who doesn't hate sin. I hate sin because it's caused by evil, therefore it would make sense that the God I worship hated sin and evil

Good. This is good to hear. Perhaps you'd like to hear another strong passage on a particular sin:

They say: "The Most Merciful has begotten a son!"
You have done an atrocious thing.
The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits asunder and the mountains collapse in devastation
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)

However, because of God's mercy, he allows sin and evil in order to fulfill His plan of redemption. So the God I worship allows evil because it's leading to an everlasting good that He can clearly see because He's all knowing, but I cannot see because of my limited perspective, but eventually I will see.

You believe He allows it to fulfill redemption, we believe He allows it as part of the test, as stated above.

I don't want to rely on man for truth, I want to rely on God's truth. I'm sure you agree.

Absolutely. And It is not befitting God's majesty that the truth should be convoluted, complicated, illogical, difficult to understand and explain, doesn't make sense. If God tells us He is One, but we can't talk about One without mentioning the number Three, then clearly something is wrong. If all of mankind is eternally ****ed for something they didn't do at the beginning of the world, then something is clearly wrong. If God can't forgive, but has to beget a son and have him killed in a torturous death to forgive mankind, then clearly something is wrong.

Compare with:

God is one.
Has no son.
Is not 3-in-1.

He created us and sent His guidance to us via prophets and messengers, so that we should worship Him alone, without any associates in His divinity and obey the guidance of the messengers. In doing so, we try to do good and avoid evil, knowing we will be judged on judgement day. If we err, we ask for forgiveness. God can forgive just with His will. We also regularly seek protection and refuge with God from the evil of Satan.

I know which one resonates with the heart and mind as the clear truth from God, which befits His Glory and Majesty.

I'm sorry, it is becoming more clear to me that Allah is not a God I want to worship

You already do worship Him. But you associate Jesus (peace be on him) and the holy spirit in the divinity that belongs solely to Allah.

simply because He doesn't seem to hate sin caused by evil.

I've already answered this above.

The God I worship, loves His creation, but hates evil which has tainted His creation with sin, therefore He has chosen to send His only begotten Son to die for all, that all who believe will be saved from their sin and ultimately saved from His righteous wrath against satan and sin.

When we do bad deeds and incur sin, and repent to God, asking sincerely for forgiveness, and trying our best not to repeat it, He can forgive us with just His will. No killing or bloodshed needs to take place.

God will continue to try and reach you. You wouldn't be alive if God did not have a plan to save you. Those who reject Christ to their death will have to face God's wrath against them as sinners.

We do not reject Christ (peace be on him). Anyone that rejects Jesus (peace be on him) is immediately outside the fold of Islam. Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we go to the other extreme of deifying him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He'll return to earth near the end of time.

We call you to the same truth, that all the Prophets, including Jesus, peace be on him, practised and preached. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself. The Qur'an contains these verses, which foretell what Jesus (peace on him) will say when God, on the Day of Judgement, to illustrate to humankind, will ask Jesus whether he claimed divinity or said he should be worshipped:

"He [Jesus] will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (5:116-117)

Many Muslims who were formerly Christian, say it feels like they have returned home, and they feel closer to Jesus (peace on him) now than when they were Christian, as a quote from a former Christian member shows:

"Many of us here (myself included) said essentially the same words you are now saying, during our years following Paulism in the belief we were Christians. During our Christian years we loved and worshiped an idealistic man-made concept. After we came to Islam we learned to truly love Jesus (peace be on him) and not what we were told was Jesus (peace be on him). When I was Christian I thought I loved Jesus (peace be on him), but after coming to Islam I came to truly Love Jesus (peace be on him)."

We understand it is natural for you to want to defend what you have believed for so long, and what you currently believe to be the truth, but we hope and pray that you will ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines.

The wrath of God will be against those who associated others, such Jesus (peace be on him) in Gods exclusive divinity.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is one of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (5:73)

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

What is One God?

Let's take the number 1. That number can be manipulated, by multiplying, dividing, adding or subtracting.

This is what various groups of people have wrongly done over the years with their beliefs about God.

Some have multiplied the number, and believe in many gods.

Others have divided the number, and believe in many gods in one, such as the trinity (or 3 = 1 or 1 = 3)

Some have added, by worshipping God, but then also worshipping and praying to others such as Mary (peace be on her), or saints etc along with Him.

And others, such as atheists, have subtracted, by saying there is no God.

Regardless of this manipulation, the number 1 always remains the number 1 and does not itself change, and cannot itself never not be 1.

So what is the original and true belief without any change or manipulation?

1.

1slam.

True believers of Jesus, hate sin because it's caused by evil and a true believer is viewed as a child of God, not a slave of God.

This illustrates what Allah says in the Quran: "But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." (5:18, part)

We believe that God is High Exalted above having any children. The proudest title of a Muslim, is slave of Allah, servitude to Allah implying liberation from all other servitudes. Every prophet loved to have this title, including Jesus (peace be on him):

"He ['Jesus] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" (19:30)

Under Christ, we are commanded to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and love each other as ourselves.

We are also commanded to love God, but that love cannot be mere lip service while associating others in His divinity.

"And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else). If only, those who do wrong could see, when they will see the torment, that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is Severe in punishment." (2:165)

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (3:31)

Under Christ, the purpose of my life on this earth is to glorify God for who He is and what He's done. Why would God create anything other than to glorify Himself?

You are in this conundrum, where to glorify God, you have to glorify other than God. We face no such conundrum. Indeed the purpose of our existence is to worship Him and Him alone.

I'm glad you're open to understanding what true Christians believe.

Understanding what they believe has helped me in conveying God's message more efficiently.

Peace.

 

[ardianto]

Greeting and peace be with you, TruthFollower.

How does Allah forgive sins according to Islamic concept?. Okay, let we back to the math subjects in school. Remember plus points (1,2,3) and minus points (-1,-2,-3)?. In Islamic concept, if someone do act of worship or act of kindness, then he will get plus points. And if he commit sin, the he will get minus points.

When a baby born, he is in zero (0) position. Then after he reach puberty and his reward and sin start to be counted, he will start to get plus points and minus points. If he get reward (due to act of worship and kindness) more than he commit sins, he will be in "plus area". If he commit sins more than worship and do kindness, then he will be in "minus area". The area where he stay can changed anytime, depend on what he does. When he dies, if he is on plua area, he will go to heaven. If he is in minus area, he will go to hell.

But there is difference between concept of reward and sins, and math. Allah can forgive someone's sins if he repent, and make him in zero position again. Of course, if he still commit sins after he back to zero position, he will go to minus area again.

Simple, isn't it?.

 

[TruthFollower]

I've put this here for info, as I think it's very helpful.

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Yes. As I have said, Our life here is temporary, a test. The purpose of our existence, is that we should worship Allah alone, without any associates, parts, persons to the exclusive divinity that belongs only and solely and uniquely to Him. Allah created the world, and created us, not just to work, eat, sleep, have children and die into nothingness. Then rather than leaving us fumbling in the dark as to what we should do, what we should believe about him how we should worship him, how we should live, how we should avoid bad, from His mercy, he sent us prophets and messengers throughout the ages, to convey His message to us and to show us how to live and worship him. These include, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the last and final messenger, Muhammad, peace be on them all. All of them conveyed the same core message, not different messages. The message was that we should submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

As part of our free will, once we hear that message, we have the choice to accept or reject. We have the choice to do good or bad, and as a result, to incur reward or sin. Sin is a consequence of deeds, same as reward is a consequence of deeds. After death, we will be resurrected on the day of judgement, and be brought to account for our deeds, and be judged. Our sin, our reward will be weighed up in the Divine scales of justice. Allah will be Just on that day. Those who may have escaped worldly justice, will not be able to escape and will face absolute justice. It is through His mercy that those who enter paradise will enter it.



Had it happened, it would have been. Because if we repent sincerely, and ask for forgiveness, try our best not to repeat past mistakes, God can forgive us simply by His will. A perfect God doesn't pay a price.

Satan has been reprieved until the day of Judgement, and he will try and mislead men. This is part of the test. We have been warned against him. We ask God to help us do those deeds pleasing to Him, and to avoid sin, we ask him to help us to avoid those deeds that incur His anger, and we ask that if we have erred, that God forgive us, pardon us, overlook our faults, have mercy on us, and forgive our sins. We also seek refuge in Him against His anger and punishment.



In one of the chapters of the Qur'an, just as one example, a number of evil deeds that incur great sin are mentioned. The next verse says, "The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord." (17:38)

It is followed straight by another verse: "That is from what your Lord has revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of wisdom. And, [O mankind], do not make [as equal] with Allah another deity, lest you be thrown into Hell, blamed and banished. "(17:39)



Good. This is good to hear. Perhaps you'd like to hear another strong passage on a particular sin:

They say: "The Most Merciful has begotten a son!"
You have done an atrocious thing.
The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits asunder and the mountains collapse in devastation
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)



You believe He allows it to fulfill redemption, we believe He allows it as part of the test, as stated above.



Absolutely. And It is not befitting God's majesty that the truth should be convoluted, complicated, illogical, difficult to understand and explain, doesn't make sense. If God tells us He is One, but we can't talk about One without mentioning the number Three, then clearly something is wrong. If all of mankind is eternally ****ed for something they didn't do at the beginning of the world, then something is clearly wrong. If God can't forgive, but has to beget a son and have him killed in a torturous death to forgive mankind, then clearly something is wrong.

Compare with:

God is one.
Has no son.
Is not 3-in-1.

He created us and sent His guidance to us via prophets and messengers, so that we should worship Him alone, without any associates in His divinity and obey the guidance of the messengers. In doing so, we try to do good and avoid evil, knowing we will be judged on judgement day. If we err, we ask for forgiveness. God can forgive just with His will. We also regularly seek protection and refuge with God from the evil of Satan.

I know which one resonates with the heart and mind as the clear truth from God, which befits His Glory and Majesty.



You already do worship Him. But you associate Jesus (peace be on him) and the holy spirit in the divinity that belongs solely to Allah.



I've already answered this above.



When we do bad deeds and incur sin, and repent to God, asking sincerely for forgiveness, and trying our best not to repeat it, He can forgive us with just His will. No killing or bloodshed needs to take place.



We do not reject Christ (peace be on him). Anyone that rejects Jesus (peace be on him) is immediately outside the fold of Islam. Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we go to the other extreme of deifying him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He'll return to earth near the end of time.

We call you to the same truth, that all the Prophets, including Jesus, peace be on him, practised and preached. The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself. The Qur'an contains these verses, which foretell what Jesus (peace on him) will say when God, on the Day of Judgement, to illustrate to humankind, will ask Jesus whether he claimed divinity or said he should be worshipped:

"He [Jesus] will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (5:116-117)

Many Muslims who were formerly Christian, say it feels like they have returned home, and they feel closer to Jesus (peace on him) now than when they were Christian, as a quote from a former Christian member shows:

"Many of us here (myself included) said essentially the same words you are now saying, during our years following Paulism in the belief we were Christians. During our Christian years we loved and worshiped an idealistic man-made concept. After we came to Islam we learned to truly love Jesus (peace be on him) and not what we were told was Jesus (peace be on him). When I was Christian I thought I loved Jesus (peace be on him), but after coming to Islam I came to truly Love Jesus (peace be on him)."

We understand it is natural for you to want to defend what you have believed for so long, and what you currently believe to be the truth, but we hope and pray that you will ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines.

The wrath of God will be against those who associated others, such Jesus (peace be on him) in Gods exclusive divinity.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is one of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (5:73)

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

What is One God?

Let's take the number 1. That number can be manipulated, by multiplying, dividing, adding or subtracting.

This is what various groups of people have wrongly done over the years with their beliefs about God.

Some have multiplied the number, and believe in many gods.

Others have divided the number, and believe in many gods in one, such as the trinity (or 3 = 1 or 1 = 3)

Some have added, by worshipping God, but then also worshipping and praying to others such as Mary (peace be on her), or saints etc along with Him.

And others, such as atheists, have subtracted, by saying there is no God.

Regardless of this manipulation, the number 1 always remains the number 1 and does not itself change, and cannot itself never not be 1.

So what is the original and true belief without any change or manipulation?

1.

1slam.



This illustrates what Allah says in the Quran: "But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." (5:18, part)

We believe that God is High Exalted above having any children. The proudest title of a Muslim, is slave of Allah, servitude to Allah implying liberation from all other servitudes. Every prophet loved to have this title, including Jesus (peace be on him):

"He ['Jesus] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" (19:30)



We are also commanded to love God, but that love cannot be mere lip service while associating others in His divinity.

"And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else). If only, those who do wrong could see, when they will see the torment, that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is Severe in punishment." (2:165)

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (3:31)



You are in this conundrum, where to glorify God, you have to glorify other than God. We face no such conundrum. Indeed the purpose of our existence is to worship Him and Him alone.



Understanding what they believe has helped me in conveying God's message more efficiently.

Peace.

Thank you for your explanations. Do you regard the words of Muhammad as equal to the words of Allah? Or are the words of Allah distinguishable from the words of Muhammad? If they are indistinguishable, wouldn't this mean Muhammad is Allah? I say this because a lot of the quotes from the Qur'an that say things against Jews and Christians are coming from Muhammad himself not Allah Himself.

I find this interesting because in the Bible the words of Jesus Himself are regarded as the words of God Himself, but we can't apply this to the Qur'an, therefore the words of Muhammad himself should not be regarded as the words of Allah Himself. Does this mean we shouldn't regard Muhammad's words as equal to Allah's words? If they are equal then does this mean Muhammad is equal to Allah as far as authority over Allah's word?

 

[Insaanah]

are the words of Allah distinguishable from the words of Muhammad?

The Qur'an is 100% the word of Allah. Not one word from any human. The Prophet's practice and directives, that contain his words (the Sunnah), as taught to him by God, have also been recorded and preserved separately, in records called hadeeth, and must be followed along with the Qur'an. We follow the Qur'an and the prophet's sunnah, as taught to him by God.

I say this because a lot of the quotes from the Qur'an that say things against Jews and Christians are coming from Muhammad himself not Allah Himself.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. All of the Qur'an is Allah's words. If you mean where it says e.g. "Say, [O Muhammad]... ", that is Allah speaking, telling Muhammad (peace be on him), to say whatever follows in the verse, to people. Even that word "Say" has been preserved.

(Late addition to post: The words in square brackets in the translation eg [O Muhammad] do not appear in the original Arabic text. We know from the grammar of the word "Say" in Arabic that the word is referring to the Prophet (peace and blessing be on him) so the translators add it in brackets, to clarify).

Here's an example where people asked the prophet (peace and blessings be on him) concerning to whom it would be good for them to spend on, so a verse was revealed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be on him) by God, about it:

They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it." (2:215)

So Allah is saying, "The people are asking you about this. Say to them...."

We recite it fully preserved, exactly like that.

Here's another:

Say [O Muhammad], "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take others as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." (3:64)

This is also a command from Allah to the Prophet (peace be on him) to say to the people what follows in the verse above.

Here's another, where Allah tells the Prophet (peace be on him) to say something to people:

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)

Does that clarify it?

The Qur'an was written as it was revealed, and was orally memorised too. We believe that Jesus (peace be on him) was given a scripture by Allah called the Injeel, and we believe in that scripture as being from God, as part of our articles of faith. However the current day Bible, was mostly written decades after Jesus (peace be on him), some parts by unknown authors, and some by people that never met Jesus, such as Paul. It might be that parts of the Injeel are present in it, God knows best.

We know that those parts that disagree with the Qur'an definitely aren't from the injeel, because the Qur'an is the criterion over the superceded scriptures. Those parts that agree, may be, may not be, we don't know for sure if any of it remains, suffice to say we believe that God gave Jesus (peace be on him) a scripture called the Injeel, and even if we never saw it, we believe in it wholeheartedly, as part of our belief in the unseen.

The Qur'an is the last and final scripture of God, the very words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel. It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. The Final Testament, you could call it.

It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have it memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains the central message as already described, and practical guidance on how to live, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

The Qur'an has been translated into nearly every language. These are regarded as translations of the Qur'an, but not as the Qur'an itself, which is in Arabic, and has rhythm and poetic beauty. Any preconceived notion that you might have of a book should be put aside. This book is completely unique in every way; its content, arrangement, style, authorship, preservation, and memorisability, amongst other things.

Hopefully this addresses your last paragraph too, but let me know if it doesn't.

Peace.

 

[TruthFollower]

The Qur'an is 100% the word of Allah. Not one word from any human. The Prophet's practice and directives, that contain his words (the Sunnah), as taught to him by God, have also been recorded and preserved separately, in records called hadeeth, and must be followed along with the Qur'an. We follow the Qur'an and the prophet's sunnah, as taught to him by God.



I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. All of the Qur'an is Allah's words. If you mean where it says e.g. "Say, [O Muhammad]... ", that is Allah speaking, telling Muhammad (peace be on him), to say whatever follows in the verse, to people. Even that word "Say" has been preserved.

Here's an example where people asked the prophet (peace and blessings be on him) concerning to whom it would be good for them to spend on, so a verse was revealed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be on him) by God, about it:

They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it." (2:215)

So Allah is saying, "The people are asking you about this. Say to them...."

We recite it fully preserved, exactly like that.

Here's another:

Say [O Muhammad], "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take others as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." (3:64)

This is also a command from Allah to the Prophet (peace be on him) to say to the people what follows in the verse above.

Here's another, where Allah tells the Prophet (peace be on him) to say something to people:

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)

Does that clarify it?

The Qur'an was written as it was revealed, and was orally memorised too. We believe that Jesus (peace be on him) was given a scripture by Allah called the Injeel, and we believe in that scripture as being from God, as part of our articles of faith. However the current day Bible, was mostly written decades after Jesus (peace be on him), some parts by unknown authors, and some by people that never met Jesus, such as Paul. It might be that parts of the Injeel are present in it, God knows best.

We know that those parts that disagree with the Qur'an definitely aren't from the injeel, because the Qur'an is the criterion over the superceded scriptures. Those parts that agree, may be, may not be, we don't know for sure if any of it remains, suffice to say we believe that God gave Jesus (peace be on him) a scripture called the Injeel, and even if we never saw it, we believe in it wholeheartedly, as part of our belief in the unseen.

The Qur'an is the last and final scripture of God, the very words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel. It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. The Final Testament, you could call it.

It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have it memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains the central message as already described, and practical guidance on how to live, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

The Qur'an has been translated into nearly every language. These are regarded as translations of the Qur'an, but not as the Qur'an itself, which is in Arabic, and has rhythm and poetic beauty. Any preconceived notion that you might have of a book should be put aside. This book is completely unique in every way; its content, arrangement, style, authorship, preservation, and memorisability, amongst other things.

Hopefully this addresses your last paragraph too, but let me know if it doesn't.

Peace.

Thank you for your explanations, they are helpful, but I still can't get over the issue of sin never being eternally forgiven, only temporarily forgiven by the will of Allah. It seems Allah is continually forgiving sin("the forgiving"), forever(Ever-forgiving) and not the eternal forgiver of sin(doing away with sin in man, completely, no longer needing to forgive because sin is gone). The Bible teaches of eternal life where there will be no more sin or evil, therefore, no more need for God to be forgiving people. God can rest from His work of creating a perfect heaven and earth and His creation can rest in Him.

Also, its interesting that Allah speaks in the first person plural, he refers to himself as "We" in many verses in the Qur'an. I've read several explanation for this and none are sufficient to make me think that "We" could not be referring to a 3 persons in 1 being of God. Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.

I appreciate your time and will continue to study further in the hopes of finding better understanding of the truth of God.

God bless!

 

[Insaanah]

Thank you for your explanations, they are helpful, but I still can't get over the issue of sin never being eternally forgiven, only temporarily forgiven by the will of Allah. It seems Allah is continually forgiving sin("the forgiving"), forever(Ever-forgiving) and not the eternal forgiver of sin(doing away with sin in man, completely, no longer needing to forgive because sin is gone). The Bible teaches of eternal life where there will be no more sin or evil, therefore, no more need for God to be forgiving people. God can rest from His work of creating a perfect heaven and earth and His creation can rest in Him.

We don't believe God rests, because again, a God that needs to rest is not perfect. Needing to rest is a human limitation.

As I already mentioned a few times already, we do deeds (which incur sin or reward) until we die. On the day of judgement, we are judged on those deeds we did in this world. On the day of judgement, we don't do deeds (therefore don't incur more sin or reward). Still Allah will be merciful on that day. After judgement day, there is no more opportunity for sin, as Satan and his followers will be in hell. His reprieve was only til the day of judgement. People go to hell for punishment for the sin they incurred in this world, or heaven as their reward, through God's mercy. In paradise, there is no sin. Only good things, enjoyment, pleasure, delights the like of which no person can imagine. Forever. There you reap the reward of the good you did in this world. There is no sin there, no bad there.

There is no such thing as temporary forgiveness. Forgiveness is forgiveness, period. The people that enter paradise will do so, having been already forgiven. In paradise there will be no sin, so it seems nothing to forgive. Yet, Allah exhibits each of His Glorious Attributes, in a manner befitting His Majesty, as and how He sees fit.

Also, its interesting that Allah speaks in the first person plural, he refers to himself as "We" in many verses in the Qur'an. I've read several explanation for this and none are sufficient to make me think that "We" could not be referring to a 3 persons in 1 being of God. Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.

So, what do you think of the numerous verses Allah refers to Himself, as I, Me, My, just three of which are below?

Indeed, I am Allah . There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance. (20:14)

And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. (51:56)

... And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve. (2:38 part)

In some verses Allah refers to Himself using the Majestic Royal "We", and sometimes as I, depending on the context of the verse, in His wisdom.

Eg The Queen, in some royal documents will refer to, "Our reign". Yet other times she will say, "One was heartened to hear..."

Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.

The Qur'an is crystal clear as to it's core theme and message, repeated again and again throughout the book in different ways and styles. If somebody reads the Qur'an that knows absolutely nothing about Islam, they will come away with the message that God is One, without any associate in His Divinity, and that only He must be worshipped. Even if they don't agree with that, they will come away knowing clearly that that is the core of the faith.

Only when he speaks through prophets(men) does it say Allah is one and should not be considered as 3 persons in one, even though "We" clearly suggests the possibility and that even came from Allah Himself.

This is Allah speaking directly to you, not through any prophet. There is no "Say to the people" here. Nor the royal We. This is directly, from your Lord to you, about the trinity:

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah , nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together. (4:171-172)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is one of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (5:73-74)

I appreciate your time and will continue to study further in the hopes of finding better understanding of the truth of God.

I wish you well, and hope you will study with an open heart and mind. If you have further questions feel free to post here, and we will do our best to help. May Allah guide you to the truth, ameen.

Peace.

 

[MidnightRose]

Greetings again TruthFollower,

Thanks for your candid replies to my posts. I believe this a fruitful discussion. I’m sure you do as well.

In your last reply to me you asked:

Why would God be obligated to love someone who has rejected Him to their death?

It is because you mentioned the following without qualification:

In order to forgive His creation of it's sins and destroy evil, He sent His only begotten Son Jesus who lived a perfect life and willingly went to the cross and died for all man's sins.

and

...by His Holy Spirit He begot a Son and sacrificed Him for all humanity's sin.

and

Jesus' death would be pointless if it was not to save all from God's wrath against satan and evil, which caused sin in man.

.
From our interaction as noted in this thread, these statements relating to dying for all, saving all, and sacrificed for all humanity's sin are not true. There is at least one exception.

 

[M.I.A.]

Ok there's an almost relevant link for OP to spend a few minutes on..

https://youtu.be/iHFgcRGIrH0


32 minutes :|