How does Islam view the apparitions of Mary?

[Ramadhan]

How does Paul fail all the tests?

Among many things, paul/saul said that jesus had done away with mosaic laws, although jesus (pbuh) told everyone to keep the commandments and the laws. Jesus (pbuh) never taught three-in-one god and infact jesus (p) was VERY strict in commanding everyone to worship only the Father, and yet paul claimed Jesus (pbuh) was god who came to pay for sins with god's blood. etc etc.

tell me how Paul fulfilled the tests?

You claimed you are "true biblical christian", but do you even know that jesus never even met saul of tarsus, let alone appointing him as an apostle?
Do you even know that in bible, it was saul/paul himself who referred and self-appointed himself as an apostle?

 

[Burninglight]

Among many things, paul/saul said that jesus had done away with mosaic laws, although jesus (pbuh) told everyone to keep the commandments and the laws. Jesus (pbuh) never taught three-in-one god and infact jesus (p) was VERY strict in commanding everyone to worship only the Father, and yet paul claimed Jesus (pbuh) was god who came to pay for sins with god's blood. etc etc.

tell me how Paul fulfilled the tests?

You claimed you are "true biblical christian", but do you even know that jesus never even met saul of tarsus, let alone appointing him as an apostle?
Do you even know that in bible, it was saul/paul himself who referred and self-appointed himself as an apostle?

Please give Bible references of where Paul said these things.

 

[Ramadhan]

Please give Bible references of where Paul said these things.

I hope you actually have read bible. There are tons that Paul said which contradicted Jesus (pbuh), paul did not confirm Jesus (pbuh)

Here's among the things which he wrote that outright contradicted Jesus (pbuh)

Jesus (pbuh) and previous prophets NEVER taught God's incarnation and God (swt), but paul wrote:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. — Colossians 1:15-16

Jesus (pbuh) always commanded to only worship the One true God in deuteronomy, but Paul suggested Jesus (pbuh) as part of God:
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Rom. 8:11, 2 Cor. 4:14, Gal. 1:1, Eph. 1:20, 1 Tim 1:2,

Jesus (pbuh) NEVER taught blood atonement, and yet Paul made much of blood atonement theology and Paul created the whole idea of Jesus (pbuh) as the sacrifical lamb:

[SUP]23[/SUP] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Romans 6:23

[/FONT]"Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Ephesians 5:1-2

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ DIED for the ungodly. . but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ DIED for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the DEATH of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:6, 8-11

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you? unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ DIED for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that HE WAS RAISED on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, MOST OF WHOM ARE STILL ALIVE, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me." 1 Corinthians 15:1-8
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Jesus (pbuh never claimed that he is god and rebuked people who even tried to treat him as such (why do you call me good) and he kept saying that he was ascending to "your god and my god", and yet paul claimed jesus is god:

[/FONT]“Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23)

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]
Jesus (pbuh) commanded this:

[/FONT]Mat 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And yet Paul abrogated Jesus (pbuh) commandments:
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4)


[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]

[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Ramadhan]

Burninglight,

Did Jesus appoint saul of tarsus to be an apostle, or did he (pbuh) even ever met saul of tarsus?

Did any of Jesus' 12 apostles (ra) ever appoint or sanction saul of tarsus?

 

[Burninglight]

Did Jesus appoint saul of tarsus to be an apostle, or did he (pbuh) even ever met saul of tarsus?

Did any of Jesus' 12 apostles (ra) ever appoint or sanction saul of tarsus?

Jesus gave Paul a mission: Paul had to gain the trust of the apostles, but he eventually did

 

[Burninglight]

Jesus (pbuh) and previous prophets NEVER taught God's incarnation and God (swt), but paul wrote:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. — Colossians 1:15-16

Jesus said "I am the living bread that comes down from heaven; eat of this bread and drink the water He gives and you'll never thirst again. Jesus taught the lord's prayer "Give us this day our daily bread" that is not to say food, but it refers to the word of God. Man doesn't live on bread alone... He is the living bread of life out of heaven and out of His own mouth

 

[Ramadhan]

Jesus gave Paul a mission: Paul had to gain the trust of the apostles, but he eventually did

Give me the bible verses where Jesus gave paul mission.

 

[Ramadhan]

Jesus said "I am the living bread that comes down from heaven; eat of this bread and drink the water He gives and you'll never thirst again. Jesus taught the lord's prayer "Give us this day our daily bread" that is not to say food, but it refers to the word of God. Man doesn't live on bread alone... He is the living bread of life out of heaven and out of His own mouth

What you are saying here is: orange is a fruit. apple is a fruit. Therefore orange = apple.

Please give me the bible verses and their context and the whole passage.

We then can discuss from there.

 

[Ramadhan]

And please address my post #23

And please do not shy away from answering my question:

tell me how Paul fulfilled the tests?

 

[Burninglight]

Give me the bible verses where Jesus gave paul mission.

Read carefully, Acts 22: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel[SUP][b][/SUP] according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day. [SUP]4[/SUP] I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, [SUP]5[/SUP] as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
[SUP]6[/SUP] “As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. [SUP]7[/SUP] And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ [SUP]8[/SUP] And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ [SUP]9[/SUP] Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand[SUP][c][/SUP] the voice of the one who was speaking to me. [SUP]10[/SUP] And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ [SUP]11[/SUP] And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
[SUP]12[/SUP] “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, [SUP]13[/SUP] came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. [SUP]14[/SUP] And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; [SUP]15[/SUP] for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. [SUP]16[/SUP] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ [SUP]17[/SUP] “When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance [SUP]18[/SUP] and saw him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’ [SUP]19[/SUP] And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. [SUP]20[/SUP] And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ [SUP]21[/SUP] And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

 

[Burninglight]

I hope you actually have read bible. There are tons that Paul said which contradicted Jesus (pbuh), paul did not confirm Jesus (pbuh)

Here's among the things which he wrote that outright contradicted Jesus (pbuh)

Yes, I have and there are no contradiction I can find.

Jesus (pbuh) always commanded to only worship the One true God in deuteronomy, but Paul suggested Jesus (pbuh) as part of God:
Rom. 8:11, 2 Cor. 4:14, Gal. 1:1, Eph. 1:20, 1 Tim 1:2,

[SUP]11[/SUP] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[SUP][d][/SUP] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
[SUP]14[/SUP] knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
[SUP]1[/SUP] Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— [SUP]2[/SUP] and all the brothers[SUP][a][/SUP] who are with me,
[SUP]20[/SUP] that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
ABOVE ARE ALL THE VERSES YOU CITED; ALL THE APOSTLES SAY THE SAME ABOUT JESUS, AND NONE OF THEM CONTRADICT JESUS. EVEN JAMES CONSIDERED HIMSELF [SUP]1[/SUP], a servant[SUP][a][/SUP] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, YOU HAVE SHOWN ME NO CONTRADICTION REGARDING PAUL HERE.

Jesus (pbuh) NEVER taught blood atonement, and yet Paul made much of blood atonement theology and Paul created the whole idea of Jesus (pbuh) as the sacrifical lamb:

Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples that involves blood atonement. Jesus predicted His death three times in the book of Luke. Read Isaiah 53. The Bible is replete with the sacraficing of lambs for sin atonement. Paul explain Jesus is the fufillement of the shadow of tradition practiced in the OT. Jesus is the Lamb of God. Even during the time of Passover when Moses ordered the blood of the lamb on their door post so the death angel would Passover. This was all a shadow of Jesus. Paul explains if you don't have the blood of Christ the death angel will not passover you but claim you for a Christless eternity. Paul explains that if someone (even an angel) teaches that Jesus Christ didn't die for sin, they are preaching a different Jesus and not the one from God and that they should be eternal ****ed or condemned

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

"Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Ephesians 5:1-2

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ DIED for the ungodly. . but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ DIED for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the DEATH of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:6, 8-11

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you? unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ DIED for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that HE WAS RAISED on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, MOST OF WHOM ARE STILL ALIVE, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me." 1 Corinthians 15:1-8

Jesus (pbuh never claimed that he is god and rebuked people who even tried to treat him as such (why do you call me good) and he kept saying that he was ascending to "your god and my god", and yet paul claimed jesus is god:

“Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23)


Jesus (pbuh) commanded this:

Mat 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And yet Paul abrogated Jesus (pbuh) commandments:
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4)

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM" What do you think he meant? What do you think the Jews thought He meant when they wanted to stone Him for saying that? Jesus also said " I and my father are one" They wanted to stone Him another time for saying that why do you think??? I can find nothing wrong with the great apostle Paul. He angered many and suffered for preaching the truth. Jesus said, "No one can come to the father (God) except by me." Jesus said, "I AM the Alpha and the Omega the Beginning and the End... I have the keys to Hell and death; I come to judge the living and the dead!" If Paul calls Jesus Lord, He is justified in my minds eye. No prophet can compare to this decription of Jesus Christ and no prophet would dare if he were from God!

 

[Burninglight]

And yet Paul abrogated Jesus (pbuh) commandments:
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4)

Paul brings out that Jesus fufilled the law as Jesus states I come to fulfill the law. Now God's greatest commandment is to love Him with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. This fufills all the law and the prophets. IOW, Christ is our rest and on this hangs all the law and the prophets.

All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempts to earn what God is not selling. Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus chose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission imo!

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Paul brings out that Jesus fufilled the law as Jesus states I come to fulfill the law. Now God greatest commandment is to love Gode with all your heart mind and soula nd your neighbor as yourself. This fufills all the law and the prophet. IOW, Christ is our rest and on this hangs all the law and the prophets. All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempt to earn what God is not selling. Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus choose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission!

Do you have proof that Jesus chose him? Give us HIS explicit words...

 

[Burninglight]

Originally Posted by Burninglight
Paul brings out that Jesus fufilled the law as Jesus states I come to fulfill the law. Now God's greatest commandment is to love Him with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. This fufills all the law and the prophet. IOW, Christ is our rest and on this hangs all the law and the prophets. All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempt to earn what God is not selling. Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus chose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission!
Do you have proof that Jesus chose him? Give us HIS explicit words...

I mentioned Paul's testimonny of being knocked off his horse and Jesus spoke to him. Do you need me to send you the source?

 

[Ramadhan]

Read carefully, Acts 22: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day. 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
6 “As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ 8 And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ 9 Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand[c] the voice of the one who was speaking to me. 10 And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ 17 “When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’ 19 And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20 And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21 And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

Acts were written by Paul of tarsus.

Paul CLAIMED that he had mission from jesus (pbuh).

But as I asked you, AGAIN, please give me VERSES NOT WRITTEN by Paul or his constant partner, Luke, where Jesus directly gave mission to him.

 

[MustafaMc]

All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempts to earn what God is not selling.

This is yet another false understanding that you have about Islam that you refuse to let go, despite whatever I or anyone else will write to the contrary. Muslims don't 'try to get right with God' or try to earn their salvation from the Hellfire by performing the ritual Islamic prayer exactly as Muhammad (saaws) did. Rather we say, "We hear and we obey the Messenger of Allah." and we put our faith and hope in the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah (swt). There is no Muslim who envisions that he will stand before Allah (swt) on Judgment Day and arrogantly say, "Since I performed my 5 daily prayers, fasted, paid charity due, and made pilgrimage, now show me my place in Paradise." Not even one who seemingly died as a martyr can boast of his salvation because the intention for his deed and his heart is known only by Allah (swt).

Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus chose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission imo!

Paul was the 'right apostle for the mission', ROFLOL. Yes, someone who held the clothes of Stephen as he was being stoned to death for no other crime than following Jesus and who was first and foremost among the Jews in actively pursuing and arresting other followers of Jesus for a similar fate is the 'right man for the job' of revealing the true 'gospel' which he claims was a message received directly from the ascended Jesus. This 'gospel' was fundamentally different from the 'gospel' that Peter preached as the 'Apostle to the Jews' as illustrated by the first 2 chapters of Galatians.

You choose to follow Paul and I choose to follow Muhammad (saaws). Deen ukum wa liya deen - to you, your religion and to me, mine.

 

[Burninglight]

This is yet another false understanding that you have about Islam that you refuse to let go, despite whatever I or anyone else will write to the contrary. Muslims don't 'try to get right with God' or try to earn their salvation from the Hellfire by performing the ritual Islamic prayer exactly as Muhammad (saaws) did. Rather we say, "We hear and we obey the Messenger of Allah." and we put our faith and hope in the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah (swt). There is no Muslim who envisions that he will stand before Allah (swt) on Judgment Day and arrogantly say, "Since I performed my 5 daily prayers, fasted, paid charity due, and made pilgrimage, now show me my place in Paradise." Not even one who seemingly died as a martyr can boast of his salvation because the intention for his deed and his heart is known only by Allah (swt).

This is not what I believe of Islam!

Paul was the 'right apostle for the mission', ROFLOL. Yes, someone who held the clothes of Stephen as he was being stoned to death for no other crime than following Jesus and who was first and foremost among the Jews in actively pursuing and arresting other followers of Jesus for a similar fate is the 'right man for the job' of revealing the true 'gospel' which he claims was a message received directly from the ascended Jesus. This 'gospel' was fundamentally different from the 'gospel' that Peter preached as the 'Apostle to the Jews' as illustrated by the first 2 chapters of Galatians.

Paul wasn't the apostles' choice; they didn't trust him, but he was Jesus' choice.

You choose to follow Paul and I choose to follow Muhammad (saaws). Deen ukum wa liya deen - to you, your religion and to me, mine.

It will be awesome when Jesus returns to set the record straight. Don't you think?

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Paul wasn't the apostles' choice; they didn't trust him, but he was Jesus' choice.

Quote for us where Jesus chose him in his OWN words? Please don't quote from the Gospels or Paul as you know they have absolutely no credibility even with Christian scholars let alone anyone else.

It will be awesome when Jesus returns to set the record straight. Don't you think?

It sure will. He will come to re-establish the oneness of God and break the cross which has been one of the main cause of idol worship for over 2000 years.

 

[Burninglight]

Quote for us where Jesus chose him in his OWN words? Please don't quote from the Gospels or Paul as you know they have absolutely no credibility even with Christian scholars let alone anyone else.

I cannot!

It sure will. He will come to re-establish the oneness of God and break the cross which has been one of the main cause of idol worship for over 2000 years.

:hiding:

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I cannot!

Then are you not contradicting yourself? If God nor Jesus ever mentioned that you should put your trust in Paul then why do you? If Paul was to play such a fundamental role in Christianity surely God or Jesus would have mentioned him at least once.

The fact is that he was a "self proclaimed Prophet", and NOT a Prophet chosen by God nor was he ever mentioned by Jesus. So please stop saying that you only trust what is in the scriptures when you are in fact going against the scriptures.