How does the Qur'an represent Christian beliefs?

[Ramadhan]

The Qur'an condemns AN abusrd theological concept. However, based on what I have read in this thread, it does not condemn ANY theological concept that is actually held within Christianity.

Can you please tell us oh dear pastor, what do you mean by christianity and which christianity should we refer to?

Last month I met a canadian christian who believed that Jesus (pbuh) is a messenger. Granted, his church is quite small in canada, but he considers himself a christian and follow christianity.

How about coptic christians who believe in monophysitism, they are certainly different in their belief from your methodist church?

Also, you may not believe that Mary (pbuh) is the mother of God and the veneration of Mary, but your belief is at the opposite from the catholics (constitute half the number of all christians) who believe Mary is the mother of God and the veneration of her.

so Dear Pastor, not all of us here is ignorant of the history of the church and the state of chrsitianity, so please make some better informed posts befitting a pastor next time, so as not to elicit mass eye-rolling. Thank you.

 

[Chavundur]

I have already stated that the two verses in the Qur'an which refer to the trinity: 4:171 and 5:73. Do NOT mention Mary as “the third Person of the Holy Trinity”. If the Qur'an had mentioned what contistuted the trinity and what order God was in the trinity then you would have a point but the fact is he clearly DID NOT mention the order or the trinity nor did he mention Mary to be a part of the trinity but he clearly condemmed the trinity on a theological level and also refuted the idea of ascribing partners to God by raising the status of Mary to that of God and that is clearly the case today where she is called "the mother of God"! Therefore all we have is your false assumptions of what you THINK the Qur'an implied in that Mary constituted the third person in the trinity when that is clearly NOT the case.

5-73 Undoubtedly, those are infidels who say, 'Allah is third of the three Gods, and there is no God but the one God. And if they desist not from what they say, then a painful torment shall surely befall to those who will die as infidels.

In original sentence ," one of third " has more complex meaning than English one " I looked at that commentary and two word has been explained according to Nahv in five pages. ( I read Turkish commentary Elmalili). And I also realized that everything about hypostasis unity has been explained in two words. I don't need further explanation as a Muslim. I think You say that, There are almost one billion christian and there have to be clear explanation connected to our conception in Qur'an if it is God's word. I can say, There is no need for further explanation If You consider the minority of Christians who understands clearly what hypostasis union is , in other words how majority of people understands, in that way explanation had been put forth. You know better than me in details.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I know that the odds of you understanding, or even appreciate this next statement are exceedingly small, but just on the off chance that someone get it, I still have to say it:


Should a person ever actually understand the concept of the Trinity as historically orthodox trinitarian Christians understand it, then you would know that it is meant to convey, not deny, the very idea of Oneness that you seek to stress in your concept of Tawheed. To challenge and correct those who were speaking against the oneness of God and suggesting that Jesus was somehow a different, lesser God than the Father or someone a secondary divine being who was in partnership with God was the whole reason the Nicene Creed was written in the first place. And specifically because some of our practices might indicate to the unitiated beliefs to the contrary, the whole idea of trinitas was to reaffirm that even as Christians spoke of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in divine terminology that we Christians were still first and foremost committed to saying "One, not Three."

Obviously we have not done a very good job of conveying that message as so many here, on having read the Qur'am, seem convinced that we hold differing beliefs with regard to the Trinity than we actually do.

Greetings Grace Seeker. There is no doubt that the trinity itself is NOT taught even mentioned anywhere in the Bible and nor is it taught by Jesus or the Christian deity in the Bible.

It is a concept that is impossible to explain and understand because it does not make any philosophical sense nor is it compatible with true monothiesm.

Robert Ingersoll has a go at explaining the trinity:

Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third.

Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son.

The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two.

So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. (Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67)

The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more illogical than the dogma of the Trinity.

I ask Christians to contemplate over this and think why would God leave such a fundamental concept as the trinity out of the Bible not even mentioning or referring to it even once? Why would he keep it such a mystery and cause so many to leave Christianity because of it?

Why would there have been so much political turmoil and confusion because of it for so many centuries? Clearly because it was NOT taught by Jesus and it was NOT mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible nor was it referred to even once by the Christian deity but it was manmade hundreds of years after Jesus not having any back up by the scriptures but was a pure creation of man heavily influenced by pagan greek mythological beliefs which at the time were VERY popular.

In fact the Bible PROVES in the worship of ONLY one god for even Jesus worshipped ONE God and called others towards ONE God but after him his message was changed and twisted by those who were influenced by satan and he became the very object of worship when in fact he ONLY called for others to worship God and NO ONE ELSE but God!

So turn to ONE GOD who does NOT have any partners and nor is he in need of any. He is NOT part of 3 nor is he one in 3. Before him is NONE and he is and always be ONE without the need for ANYONE.

Have they chosen other gods besides Him? Say: “Bring forth your proof. This is the Message (the Quran) of those with me, and the Message (the previous Scriptures) of those before me.” But, most of them do not know the truth, and so they turn away. And We did not send any Messenger before you without inspiration to him: “There is no god but I; so worship Me (alone).” And yet they say, “The Compassionate God has begotten offspring.” Exalted is He! No, those (whom they so designate) are only His honoured servants. They do not speak before He speaks, and they only perform His commands. He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot intercede for none, except for those whom He approves, and they tremble in awe of Him. And if any of them declares: “I am a god beside Him,” We shall requite such a one with Hell. Thus do We requite the wrongdoers. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 21:19-29]

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

In Christianity mercy is highly recommended both by The Lord Jesus Christ and by his Apostles. Is mercy also preached in the Koran?

Greetings Gmcbroom,

With Islam, mercy was given a deeper meaning that created a vital aspect in the life of every Muslim, which he is rewarded by God for showing.

God’s mercy, which is bestowed on all His creatures, is seen in everything we lay eyes on: in the sun that provides light and heat, and in the air and water that are essential for all the living.

An entire chapter in the Quran is named after God’s divine attribute Ar-Rahman or “The Most Gracious.” Also two of God’s attributes are derived from the word for mercy. They are Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim, which mean “The Most Gracious” and “The Most Merciful.” These two attributes are mentioned in the phrase recited at the beginning of 113 chapters of the Quran: “In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.” This phrase is a continuous reminder for the reader of God’s endless mercy and great bounties.

God assures us that whoever commits a sin will be forgiven if he repents and ceases this act, where He says:

“Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Quran 6:54)

This verse is affirmed by the narration of Prophet Muhammad(Pbuh), in which he said that God said:

“My mercy prevails over My wrath.”

Reward for kindness and compassion was also assured by the Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh):

“The merciful are shown mercy by the All-Merciful. Show mercy to those on earth, and He Who is in heaven will show mercy unto you” (As-Suyuti).

Let us look at the Prophet’s Mercy:

Concerning Prophet Muhammad’s (Pbuh) mercy, it is best to mention first what God Himself has said about him:

“We have not sent thee save as a mercy to the worlds.” (Quran 21:107)

…which assures that Islam is founded on mercy, and that God sent Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, as mercy to all creatures with no exception.

God also says in the Quran:

“Now hath come to you an Apostle from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should receive any injury or difficulty: ardently anxious is he over you: to the believers is he most kind and merciful” (Quran 9:128)

These verses were clearly manifested in the Prophet’s manners and dealings, for he bore many hardships for the sake of conveying God’s message. The Prophet was also most gentle in guiding his people, and whenever they used to harm him he always asked God to pardon them for their ignorance and cruelty.

Read more on the Mercy of God in Islam here:

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1183/

 

[Grace Seeker]

Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more illogical than the dogma of the Trinity.

What Trinity is that? The one mentioned in the Qur'an or the one that Christians actually believe in?

I ask Christians to contemplate over this and think why would God leave such a fundamental concept as the trinity out of the Bible not even mentioning or referring to it even once?

Asked and answered multiple times already.

In fact the Bible PROVES in the worship of ONLY one god for even Jesus worshipped ONE God and called others towards ONE God but after him his message was changed and twisted by those who were influenced by satan and he became the very object of worship when in fact he ONLY called for others to worship God and NO ONE ELSE but God!

So turn to ONE GOD who does NOT have any partners and nor is he in need of any. He is NOT part of 3 nor is he one in 3. Before him is NONE and he is and always be ONE without the need for ANYONE.

Are you even reading this thread? You're ignoring the very post you are commenting on.
You say: "the Bible PROVES in the worship of ONLY one god"
I have said: "the concept of the Trinity as historically orthodox trinitarian Christians understand it...convey, not deny, the very idea of Oneness.

You say: "turn to ONE GOD who does NOT have any partners and nor is he in need of any."
I have said: "To challenge and correct those who were suggesting ... a secondary divine being who was in partnership with God was the whole reason the Nicene Creed was written in the first place."

You say: "He is NOT part of 3 nor is he one in 3."
I have said: "we Christians were still first and foremost committed to saying 'One, not Three'."

Have they chosen other gods besides Him? Say: “Bring forth your proof. This is the Message (the Quran) of those with me, and the Message (the previous Scriptures) of those before me.” But, most of them do not know the truth, and so they turn away. And We did not send any Messenger before you without inspiration to him: “There is no god but I; so worship Me (alone).” And yet they say, “The Compassionate God has begotten offspring.” Exalted is He! No, those (whom they so designate) are only His honoured servants. They do not speak before He speaks, and they only perform His commands. He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot intercede for none, except for those whom He approves, and they tremble in awe of Him. And if any of them declares: “I am a god beside Him,” We shall requite such a one with Hell. Thus do We requite the wrongdoers. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 21:19-29]

Who is the "they" (the second word in this passage) referring to?

 

[siam]

I know that the odds of you understanding, or even appreciate this next statement are exceedingly small, but just on the off chance that someone get it, I still have to say it:


Should a person ever actually understand the concept of the Trinity as historically orthodox trinitarian Christians understand it, then you would know that it is meant to convey, not deny, the very idea of Oneness that you seek to stress in your concept of Tawheed. To challenge and correct those who were speaking against the oneness of God and suggesting that Jesus was somehow a different, lesser God than the Father or someone a secondary divine being who was in partnership with God was the whole reason the Nicene Creed was written in the first place. And specifically because some of our practices might indicate to the unitiated beliefs to the contrary, the whole idea of trinitas was to reaffirm that even as Christians spoke of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in divine terminology that we Christians were still first and foremost committed to saying "One, not Three."

Obviously we have not done a very good job of conveying that message as so many here, on having read the Qur'am, seem convinced that we hold differing beliefs with regard to the Trinity than we actually do.

It is great that there are Christians who are particular about monotheism. It is also great that for 2,000 years so many Christians have struggled to keep the monotheistic nature of their religion from falling into tri-theism/polytheism. I had not thought of looking at Christian history from this perspective......

For most Muslims and Jews who have a different approach/concept of monotheism---how a trinity can be considered monotheism is going to be difficult to understand---one might as well consider it a lost cause.....

However, I do want to point out to my Muslim brothers and sisters that the Quran does recognize the efforts/struggles of some Christians to adhere to monotheism---and this recognition might be one reason why they are referred to as "people of the book" and spoken of kindly. I think we should remember that we as human beings are intolerant and judgemental but God is Most Compassionate, Most Merciful.....
..............IMO, in general, the Quranic perspectives tend to be far more balanced than what I find myself capable of sometimes.....

attacking others beliefs may be fun---I know---but I wonder if perhaps, there may be times when it might be more beneficial if we Muslims concentrated on explaining why we believe the way we do?


IMO, within the framework of Tawheed---incarnation---(Divine decending into created form for worship) is not workable. The Division of One God into a Godhead with 3 (or more) parts is not workable. Any idea that a creation, be it a stone, or a human, has Divinity is not workable.....etc......These are general frameworks that can apply to all types of religious concepts such as Hinduism. Christianity, Pantheism, Shamanism.....etc. Some aspects of Jewish monotheism held by some Jews, would also not be workable within the framework of Tawheed, such as any idea that G-D is both male and female (God/Goddess) or is anthropomorphic in any way, or that God chose one nation out of all the tribes and nations of humanity for a particular exclusive favor.....
The framework of Tawheed/Shirk is meant as a Guidance.........IMO the verses of the Quran sometimes try to create a shift in perspective so that the listeners reflect on what their beliefs are and how it effects their behavior, their society, and their relationships...............

 

[Ramadhan]

What Trinity is that? The one mentioned in the Qur'an or the one that Christians actually believe in?

Again, dear Pastor,
Can you please tell us where in the Qur'an the mentioned "trinity"?

You know, unlike bibles, there is only one Qur'an, so it should not be difficult to find out which ayat that mentions "trinity"

 

[Grace Seeker]

Can you please tell us oh dear pastor, what do you mean by christianity and which christianity should we refer to?

Last month I met a canadian christian who believed that Jesus (pbuh) is a messenger. Granted, his church is quite small in canada, but he considers himself a christian and follow christianity.

You have spoken so often against Christianity, and yet now you act as if you do not even know what it is which you speak against.

Either the Qur'an speaks against Chrsitian beliefs or it does not. I had thought that Muslims held that the Qur'an spoke against my beliefs. But thus far in this thread, not one Muslims, including you Naidamar, has actually identified a single verse from the Qur'an that speaks against a belief that I actually hold. You project your own strawmen with regard to Christian beliefs, but you've yet to actually present a strawman with whom I didn't disagree as well. So, please, go ahead and attack all the strawmen you want. But know that you are not attacking Christianity.

Also, you may not believe that Mary (pbuh) is the mother of God and the veneration of Mary, but your belief is at the opposite from the catholics (constitute half the number of all christians) who believe Mary is the mother of God and the veneration of her.

Again you ignore what has been posted. I have quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to show that even as they speak of Mary as the Mother of God that they do not mean anything by the turn of a phrase that would be understood to diefy her. I have also shared in the past that while I don't choose to use the term "Mother of God" as describing Mary because of how it is so easy to misunderstand what Catholics mean by the phrase, that I actually do agree with what it that they do mean, namely that since a mother is one who gives birth and Mary gave birth to Jesus who is God incarnate, then Mary can be called the Theotokos, or God-bearer (in the vernacular, "Mother of God"), but this is not to be understood as if she is a progenitor of God


And as for other of my own beliefs with regard to Mary, Jesus, God, the Trinity, etc., I've shared plenty of my beliefs on plenty of other threads; if you don't remember them you're free to search for them. Or, are you actually soliciting for me to expound a compendium or treatise of my beliefs on this forum, non-Islamic though they be? If so, with the permission of the mods I will be happy to open up a thread to present them.

so please make some better informed posts befitting a pastor next time, so as not to elicit mass eye-rolling. Thank you.

I encourage the eye-rolling. Your vision could obviously use some improvement as you seem to be having trouble seeing the answers we have already provided in the past to these very same comments time and again. You may not agree that our answers are satisfactory from your point of view, but answers have been provided. And you still continue to present as facts things that are not and beliefs which we do not hold -- not me, not Methodist, not Catholics, not Coptics, not any group that I can think of that is representative of historical and orthodox Christianity. Now, if you are going to let just any old Joe who, as with the person you met from Canada, claims to be a Christian be considered representative of Christianity, will you afford me the same latitude with regard to Islam? For there are many people whom I know that claim to be Muslims that hold beliefs very different from yours.

 

[Ramadhan]

However, I do want to point out to my Muslim brothers and sisters that the Quran does recognize the efforts/struggles of some Christians to adhere to monotheism---and this recognition might be one reason why they are referred to as "people of the book" and spoken of kindly. I think we should remember that we as human beings are intolerant and judgemental but God is Most Compassionate, Most Merciful..... ..............IMO, in general, the Quranic perspectives tend to be far more balanced than what I find myself capable of sometimes.....

It is true that there are christians who actually adhere to monotheism. Just last month I met (in real life) a canadian who is from a small church in Canada who does not believe in the divinity of Jesus (pbuh) and believes he is a messenger. And no, he is not Jehovah witness

 

[Grace Seeker]

It is great that there are Christians who are particular about monotheism. It is also great that for 2,000 years so many Christians have struggled to keep the monotheistic nature of their religion from falling into tri-theism/polytheism. I had not thought of looking at Christian history from this perspective......

For most Muslims and Jews who have a different approach/concept of monotheism---how a trinity can be considered monotheism is going to be difficult to understand---one might as well consider it a lost cause.....

However, I do want to point out to my Muslim brothers and sisters that the Quran does recognize the efforts/struggles of some Christians to adhere to monotheism---and this recognition might be one reason why they are referred to as "people of the book" and spoken of kindly. I think we should remember that we as human beings are intolerant and judgemental but God is Most Compassionate, Most Merciful.....
..............IMO, in general, the Quranic perspectives tend to be far more balanced than what I find myself capable of sometimes.....

attacking others beliefs may be fun---I know---but I wonder if perhaps, there may be times when it might be more beneficial if we Muslims concentrated on explaining why we believe the way we do?


IMO, within the framework of Tawheed---incarnation---(Divine decending into created form for worship) is not workable. The Division of One God into a Godhead with 3 (or more) parts is not workable. Any idea that a creation, be it a stone, or a human, has Divinity is not workable.....etc......These are general frameworks that can apply to all types of religious concepts such as Hinduism. Christianity, Pantheism, Shamanism.....etc. Some aspects of Jewish monotheism held by some Jews, would also not be workable within the framework of Tawheed, such as any idea that G-D is both male and female (God/Goddess) or is anthropomorphic in any way, or that God chose one nation out of all the tribes and nations of humanity for a particular exclusive favor.....
The framework of Tawheed/Shirk is meant as a Guidance.........IMO the verses of the Quran sometimes try to create a shift in perspective so that the listeners reflect on what their beliefs are and how it effects their behavior, their society, and their relationships...............

Thank-you for making the effort to actually listen, rather than just reacting.

I can respect that you do not think the Christian answer is workable. As long as you hear the genuine Christian answer to how we wrestle with the problem of maintaining a belief in just one God in the light of what we also consider to be revelation regarding the divine nature of Jesus and the very real presence of the Holy Spirit as a divine person, then reject our beliefs as ill-formed or poorly founded. But, please, reject our actual beliefs, not the strawmen of some anti-Christian apologists creation.

 

[Ramadhan]

You have spoken so often against Christianity, and yet now you act as if you do not even know what it is which you speak against. Either the Qur'an speaks against Chrsitian beliefs or it does not. I had thought that Muslims held that the Qur'an spoke against my beliefs. But thus far in this thread, not one Muslims, including you Naidamar, has actually identified a single verse from the Qur'an that speaks against a belief that I actually hold. You project your own strawmen with regard to Christian beliefs, but you've yet to actually present a strawman with whom I didn't disagree as well. So, please, go ahead and attack all the strawmen you want. But know that you are not attacking Christianity.

It is your blindness that you refuse to read the qur'an verses previously presented by many members here which condemn the people who take up Jesus (pbuh) as God. You take up Jesus as God, right?

Whether you claim that those verses do not attack your belief is a matter of your delusion, and we need not entertain your delusion.

And as for other of my own beliefs with regard to Mary, Jesus, God, the Trinity, etc., I've shared plenty of my beliefs on plenty of other threads; if you don't remember them you're free to search for them. Or, are you actually soliciting for me to expound a compendium or treatise of my beliefs on this forum, non-Islamic though they be? If so, with the permission of the mods I will be happy to open up a thread to present them.

In Roman Catholic teachings, the veneration of Mary is a logical and necessary consequence of Christology: Jesus and Mary are son and mother, redeemer and redeemed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Virgin_Mary_(Roman_Catholic)

I didnt know that you, a pastor of a methodist church, also venerate Mary (pbuh) and believe she was redeemer.
Well, well, that increases the number of people who venerate Mary (pbuh) as now I know that methodists also worship Mary (pbuh) as the catholics do.

Or are you that willing to misrepresent your actual belief just to win an argument?
And I thought christians claim that they prefer to die than change their belief?
Or is it one of those empty words?

How many Gods do you actually worship?

 

[Ramadhan]

the very real presence of the Holy Spirit as a divine person

Do words actually mean something for you? Or is this just one of your empty meaningless words again?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Again, dear Pastor,
Can you please tell us where in the Qur'an the mentioned "trinity"?

You know, unlike bibles, there is only one Qur'an, so it should not be difficult to find out which ayat that mentions "trinity"

You'll have to ask Hamza81. He is the one who claims that he cannot believe in the dogma of the Trinity, but no Trinity he has rejected bears any resemblence to any understanding of the Trinity which I know any Christian to actually believe. So, since he is not rejecting any known Christian dogma, I'm wondering what is the source of his understanding of the Trinity. If it isn't Christianity and it isn't the Qur'an, exactly what it is, and what relevance does it even have to this thread?

 

[Grace Seeker]

It is your blindness that you refuse to read the qur'an verses previously presented by many members here which condemn the people who take up Jesus (pbuh) as God.

Chapter and verse please. The ones that I have read don't actually speak against the Christian understanding of who Jesus is. They only speak against your misunderstanding of Christian teaching.

In Roman Catholic teachings, the veneration of Mary is a logical and necessary consequence of Christology: Jesus and Mary are son and mother, redeemer and redeemed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Virgin_Mary_(Roman_Catholic)

You need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and not wikipedia if you want an accurate soure on Catholic beliefs. Catholics specifically clarify that they do not mean to imply worship by any of the actions they make take with regard to Mary. Either you believe them or you don't, or you may even think that their actions don't match up with their words, but that is what they actually teach and you should quit saying otherwise.

I didnt know that you, a pastor of a methodist church, also venerate Mary (pbuh) and believe she was redeemer.
Well, well, that increases the number of people who venerate Mary (pbuh) as now I know that methodists also worship Mary (pbuh) as the catholics do.

Again, you jump to too hasty of a conclusion. No where did I say what you have said with regard to my beliefs. I do not worship Mary. I do not see her as a redeemer or a redemtrix or in anyway personally involved in our salvation. You read far too much into things. I only said that I understand why Catholics call her the Mother of God and agree that she did bear (i.e. give birth to) Jesus, who I believe is God incarnate among us. Bearing children is what mothers do.


But to help you think through this a bit more let me share with you the true story of one child. It begins with a couple that are having trouble having a baby. She is able to get pregnant, but not carry to term. In time they learn that the reason is because of some abnormality in her womb. So, they decide to find a woman who is willing to be the surogate mother and "loan" them the use of her womb for 9 months. However, by the time they have reached this point in their story, the woman is herself past 40 and the infertility clinic recommends using her own eggs. So, they ask her younger sister if she would mind donating eggs for the purpose of helping them conceive a child. In the end the child is conceived in a testtube using the sperm of the husband and the eggs of the sister and then implanted in womb of an unrelated third party. When he is born he is then given to the couple who had wanted him to be raise. Now, who is this child's mother? I submit that each of the women could make that claim in a since.

Mary, the mother of Jesus could make that claim on two different levels. She carried him in her womb and gave birth to him. And she also raised him. And since, from a Christian perspective he is God incarnate, it is understandable that some Christians might refer to her as the Mother of God. That in no way implies that Mary is divine or that she should be worshipped. And as far as the Catholic Church goes, they have vigorously fought against any such teaching. That you continue to falsely project such ideas on to them just proves that either you don't listen. Or, perhaps you do know better, but despite knowing better you still don't care to speak the truth with regard to Catholic teachings.

How many Gods do you actually worship?

Exactly 1.

 

[YusufNoor]

I don’t know why we carry on ad naseum, but:

How does the Qur’an represent Christian beliefs?

Easy, as LIES! IT'S OH SO SIMPLE!

From the very 1st Surah, Al Fatihah, we see Christians charges as those “who have gone astray”

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
You (Alone) we worship, and you (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
Guide us to the Straight Way
The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Jumping to Al Kahf, we see Christians spoken of again, 18:15:

"These our people have taken for worship aliha (gods) other than Him (Allah). Why do they not bring for them a clear authority? And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah.

This is THE central charge against Christians: they have taken for worship “other than Allah,” NOT based upon “clear authority” and that in doing so, they have “invented a lie against Allah!”

Who have the taken for worship? It varies; Trinitarians have made Allah, one of three. Catholics have a pantheon of “saints” that they pray to, and praying to someone is worshipping them. Some Christians include Mary as co-redeemer with Jesus, this along with praying to her makes her an “associate God.”

We also see lies against Allah, in addition to the lies of the trinity, further exposed in 18:4-5:

And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allah has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."
No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths [i.e. He begot (took) sons and daughters]. They utter nothing but a lie.

And with the crusaders here, we see another charge, 18:54-58:

And indeed We have put forth every kind of example in this Quran, for mankind. But, man is ever more quarrelsome than anything.
And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Quran) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face?
And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!
And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, but turns away from them forgetting what (deeds) his hands have sent forth. Truly, We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this (the Quran), and in their ears, deafness. And if you (O Muhammad SAW) call them to guidance, even then they will never be guided.
And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they have earned, then surely, He would have hastened their punishment. But they have their appointed time, beyond which they will find no escape.

We know that Allah will call them to account as stated in 18:47-49:

And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.
And they will be set before your Lord in (lines as) rows, (and Allah will say): "Now indeed, you have come to Us as We created you the first time. Nay, but you thought that We had appointed no meeting for you (with Us).
And the Book (one's Record) will be placed (in the right hand for a believer in the Oneness of Allah, and in the left hand for a disbeliever in the Oneness of Allah), and you will see the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists, sinners, etc.), fearful of that which is (recorded) therein. They will say: "Woe to us! What sort of Book is this that leaves neither a small thing nor a big thing, but has recorded it with numbers!" And they will find all that they did, placed before them, and your Lord treats no one with injustice.

And of those the feign friendship so they can preach their lies 18:100-106:

And on that Day [Qiyama] We shall present Hell to the disbelievers, plain to view,
(To) Those whose eyes had been under a covering from My Reminder (this Quran), and who could not bear to hear (it).
Do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My slaves [i.e., the angels, Allah's Messengers, 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), etc.] as Auliya' (lords, gods, protectors, etc.) besides Me? Verily, We have prepared Hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism).
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds?
"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!
"They are those who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight.
"That shall be their recompense, Hell; because they disbelieved and took My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and My Messengers by way of jest and mockery.

We see all of the charges against the Christians included in Al Kahf. There is no need to get into the minutiae of the different schemes Christians use to spread their lies. They already stand accused and unless they repent, judged. It is already written IN THE QUR’AN!

asked and answered

 

[Tyrion]

Hmm... I've been thinking... What's with all this talk of "Christianity" as if there's one, unified religion under that name whose followers all believe the SAME thing.. I was under the impression that there were thousands of denominations, each with their own beliefs... There is no single Christian belief system... and there never has been. Even you Christians on this board should know that, so I don't see why some of you insist on saying "Well, CHRISTIANS believe so and so" when you're really only representing your own denomination (and even then, I've noticed that each individual Christian has his or her own version of that denominations beliefs)

It's just kind of a mess... Imo anyway.

 

[Aprender]

Hmm... I've been thinking... What's with all this talk of "Christianity" as if there's one, unified religion under that name whose followers all believe the SAME thing.. I was under the impression that there were thousands of denominations, each with their own beliefs... There is no single Christian belief system... and there never has been. Even you Christians on this board should know that, so I don't see why some of you insist on saying "Well, CHRISTIANS believe so and so" when you're really only representing your own denomination (and even then, I've noticed that each individual Christian has his or her own version of that denominations beliefs)

It's just kind of a mess... Imo anyway.

Truth.

That's why I don't bother getting deep into these debates. I'm just here to learn about Islam from my Muslim brothers and sisters.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Truth.

That's why I don't bother getting deep into these debates. I'm just here to learn about Islam from my Muslim brothers and sisters.

You are perhaps wiser than the rest of us. For Islam does seem to be something that people here know about and understand. But I don't think Christianity is.

Curiously I too came here originally to learn about Islam. But I found so many fallacies about Christianity constantly presented that I've stayed to challenge those who publish such falsehoods. I'm not even trying to be an apologist for Christianity and saying that Muslims should leave Islam for Christianity (though of course you might guess that I may think that), but I just want to be sure that those who reject it, do so for things that are true about it and not these crazy misconceptions I continue to see promoted.

 

[Ramadhan]

Exactly 1.

This is priceless.

exactly 1 for you means the father, the son, and holy spirit.

 

[Ramadhan]

Again, you jump to too hasty of a conclusion. No where did I say what you have said with regard to my beliefs. I do not worship Mary. I do not see her as a redeemer or a redemtrix or in anyway personally involved in our salvation. You read far too much into things. I only said that I understand why Catholics call her the Mother of God and agree that she did bear (i.e. give birth to) Jesus, who I believe is God incarnate among us. Bearing children is what mothers do.

You dont worship mary (pbuh), but the catholics worship mary (pbuh) and their total number is more than half the number of people who call themselves christians, so your own view as a methodist does not represent christianity.

Chapter and verse please. The ones that I have read don't actually speak against the Christian understanding of who Jesus is. They only speak against your misunderstanding of Christian teaching.

As I said, go back to the previous pages and read them yourselves. I don't need to entertain some people who claim blindness while in fact they are delusional stemming from following their twisted logic that says 3=1.
But since I'm in a good mood, here's few sample:

"Verily ye, (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides Allah, are (but) fuel for Hell ! To it will ye (surely) come !" (QS 21:98)

Yes, maybe to much your dismay, when christian worship Jesus (pbuh), they worship false god.

"They do commit kufr who say: "(God) is Christ the son of Mary." But Christ himself said: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with (the one true) God, God has forbidden him the jannah (paradise), and the fire will be his abode. For these wrong-doers there will be no one to help." (QS. 5:72)

"They have certainly disbelieved who say that God is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent." (QS. 5:17)

Now, do you or do you not worship Jesus (pbuh) as God?

Please, no more twisting words, this is a straightforward question.