How important is it to study other religions?

[Amigo]

Yeah, the lives of valiant soldiers who are ready to die to establish truth is more important than truth itself because they defend it. The king can only be protected when the soldiers are alive and not vice-versa.

And yes, it is allowed to lie to the wife only because the matters between husband and wife are to be always remained strictly confidential. It is not called lying if you are trying to keep your marriage happy. I'm sure you must have said at one time or the other regarding your love for someone as "I love so and so from the bottom of my heart" or "My heart longs for you" but today science has proved that you love from the brain not from the heart. So were you lying when you used the word "heart"?

More importantly, you have been lying on this forum claiming to have "seen Christ" when you were never able to bring forward your evidence.

I don't think you checked your first two sentences...

Lying does absolutely no good. It alwasy mislead:
The wife will cook that same dish to strangers who will feel bad about her cooking while she is all proud of herself. And if they can't hire her in a restaurent while she thought she makes delicious food, all this will contribute to a happy marriage.
All this being the work of her husband keeping the marriage together.
As I pointed out before, falsehood in the name of love produces false love.
We always see peole around proud with unbelievably bad issues, and we wonder 'didn't anybody ever told them this or that?' of course not....most likely their family were busy false-loving them, and now they have a whole build up false reality abound them.
These are just few from the infinite number of consequences of lies.

Only truth saves as far as true salvation is concerned. A lie can appear to save people from death, but it is jus that their day had not come. Fact is, if their day has not come, even if you point right where they are, they will not die. Now, a true believer will know that and will keep his faith, and honor God with his handling of truth, because he knows that life is in the hands of God. A person can always hide the truth without lying. Hiding the truth can mean respect for truth as long as hiding is no lying. But lying is plain disrespect of truth.

As about what I said about Christ. I showed you evidence and I am still showing it, but you can not take it. Here it is again: Walk in the truth and you will see Christ. Renounce all falsehood, stick to the truth, honor it, and tell me that you did not see Christ; I tell you, you will not pass three days without seeing Christ.
But if you insist on falsehood, there is the other side of the evidence: you will not see him.

 

[Amigo]

And christians must tell the truth when they are captured by enemies?

Lying is not equal to not telling the truth, it equals to telling the untruth.
A Christian must always respect the truth, he must not reveal it to people who do not deserve it.
Respect of truth also means he must not tell lies. He can tell a truth which covers the other truth, or simply refuse to say anything. A truth can not contradict an other, but a truth can cover an other perfectly.

 

[Amigo]

but your prophet Saul of tarsus command you to lie in order to spread paulian christianity:

But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself. nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.
(2 corinthians 12:16)

“But what does it matter? Nothing matters except that, in one way or another, people are told the message about Christ, whether with honest or dishonest motives, and I’m happy about that. Yes, I will continue to be happy.” (Philippians 1:18)

But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? (Romas 3:7)

Reading according to your terms as usual
At least try to get the context... read extra verses around or a whole chapter...

You reminded me of a quote from your fellow Muslim:

"but we are a people incapable of comprehending sarcasm, since it requires a bit of thinking and intellectualizing. And we read with great speed and a hopeful eye, not an eye for truth or reality. Some of us are struck with blindness when we read things that go against our hopes."- Khaled Montaser

And we do not hold prophets to be perfect. Only God is perfect according to the Christian Faith.

 

[Ramadhan]

Reading according to your terms as usual
At least try to get the context... read extra verses around or a whole chapter...

I have read the whole chapter. In those verses, your prophet saul of tarsus clearly told christians that it is ok to lie to spread christianity.

If you disagree, then give explanation otherwise. I am happy to discuss with you using your own bible verses. There are plenty of gems in bible.

And we do not hold prophets to be perfect. Only God is perfect according to the Christian Faith.

I understand that current christians do not believe prophets to be perfect. Christians believe prophets got drunk, had sex with tehir own daughter, committed adulteries, killing people to steal their wives, etc.

On the other hand, christians believe in every word that saul of tarsus said (including his claim that he received revelation from god).

 

[Amigo]

Yes, Christians are not shy to admit that prophets were also sinners. This way they are made capable if they wish, to avoid sins prophets have committed. Even Paul was a sinner.
The only humans who never sinned are Jesus and his mother Mary. If one wants to know about them directly, he walks in the truth. Walking in the truth/light is the Christian Way. Only in the truth they can be found. As you know they wrote no book in the Bible, so you will not access them directly in the Bible. Direct access is only in truth: honesty and sincerity of heart. In Truth is Jesus and through him, the truths about Mary and others is made known.

 

[جوري]

The only humans who never sinned are Jesus and his mother Mary.

Martin Luther negates the image of a sinless Jesus. This is to be found in Luther’s Table-Talk (See Weimer edition, ii: 107)whose authenticity has never been challenged even though the coarser passages are cause for embarrassment. Arnold Lunn writes:
Weimer quoted a passage from the Table-Talk in which Luther states that Christ committed adultery three times, first with the woman at the well, secondly with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery, “whom he let off so lightly. Thus even Christ who was so holy had to commit adultery before he died.” (See Arnold Lunn, The Revolt Against Reason, Eyre & Spottiswoode (Publishers), London, 1950, p.233.)

Not that it is the biggest issue with Christianity. With most people the fact that you worship a man pretty much seals the deal. The fact that you've prophets sent to warn people and yet become themselves guilty of what they're warning against, passages that don't agree, and charlatans that abrogate the commandments, charlatans who weren't even picked by Jesus as apostles..and generally being at odds with All Abrahamic faith, Jews, Mandeans, Sabeans, Islam etc but most egregious of all is what comes from within whenever you come up with a passage, another christian with a very large movement refutes it.

best,

 

[Ramadhan]

Yes, Christians are not shy to admit that prophets were also sinners. This way they are made capable if they wish, to avoid sins prophets have committed. .

Except that prophets (pbut) are supposed to be role models and examples and give guidance. By portraying them as drunk incestuous adulterers, the jewish scribes conveyed the wrong messages.

Even Paul was a sinner.

I never claimed paul was not a sinner.

I claimed that paul commanded christians to lie in order to spread christianity. was paul wrong?

 

[Amigo]

Christians and Muslims have very different understanding of the world 'prophet'. It could take a thread in its own. The scribes were interested in conveying relevant truth for the people of God to understand their situation in relation to God. Once you know the story of Salvation, only then you can understand why stories were chosen to be written as well as why certain books were selected to be included in the Bible while others were not.

Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God. Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.

 

[Tyrion]

Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God.

But through Paul, right? It's his trustworthiness that seems to be the problem...

Anyway, this thread seems to be going a bit off topic...

 

[Ramadhan]

Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God. Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.

Well, you claimed that christians must never lie, but saul of tarsus, whose words you take as guidance over the words of God and prophet/messenger Jesus (pbuh), clearly said several times that christians are allowed to lie.

So who's right?
God? saul? you?

 

[Ali_008]

I don't think you checked your first two sentences...

Lying does absolutely no good. It alwasy mislead:
The wife will cook that same dish to strangers who will feel bad about her cooking while she is all proud of herself.
All this being the work of her husband.
As I pointed out before, falsehood produce false love.
We always see peole around proud in unbelievably bad things, and we wonder 'didn't anybody ever told them this or that?' of course not....most likely their family were busy false-loving them, and now they have a whole build up false reality abound them.
These are just few from the infinite number of consequences of lies.

Only truth saves as far as true salvation is concerned. A lie can appear to save people from death, but it is jus that their day had not come. Fact is, if their day has not come, even if you point right where they are, they will not die. Now, a true believer will know that and will keep his faith, and honor God with his handling of truth, because he knows that life is in the hands of God. A person can always hide the truth without lying. Hiding the truth is respect, even more respect and reverance of truth. But lying is plain disrespect of truth.

As about what I said about Christ. I showed you evidence and I am still showing it, but you can not take it. Here it is again: Walk in the truth and you will see Christ. Renounce all falsehood, stick to the truth, honor it, and tell me that you did not see Christ; I tell you, you will not pass three days without seeing Christ.
But if you insist on falsehood, there is the other side of the evidence: you will not see him.

As always Amigo, your ego never lets you see beyond what you think is right. You never seem to even want to understand what Islam is. Lying in marriage is allowed not to just keep telling false news to your wife. It is so because marriage is a very sensitive bond. The criticism of the entire world on one side and the criticism of the spouse on other side, which side do you think will be heavier? Your spouse is the person you trust the most in this world, he/she is the person who you know will be with you no matter what and they are the only ones who you can reveal your most shameful problems to. The relationship is one of its kind in all relationships and hence the mutual respect and trust is very unique as well. Lying to the spouse is only allowed to keep maintain peace in the marriage. It does not contain the permission of deceiving the spouse with lies as much as you want.

The example given by brother ardianto is the best I can think of. The husband can lie to the wife about the food only to keep her happy for the moment because she'd be eagerly anticipating a positive response from him. He can later gently inform of the truth about how she can improve her cooking. Just imagine a scenario where the wife works really hard to prepare a dish for the husband and the husband straight out rejects the food. Will that be a good marriage? More importantly, women don't take criticism that well. Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) did inform us of this as well.

Samurah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Woman was created from a rib, and if you try to straighten a rib you will break it, so deal with her gently.”
Reported by Ahmad, 5/8; Ibn Hibbaan, 1308; Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2/163

So women need to be treated in a very gentle way. When women are in a problem, they seek compassion more than the solution. Don't take the allowance to lie as a means of permission to lie in every matter. If the motives are haraam behind the lie then that lie is not allowed.

Islam does not allow lying in all cases. Only in exceptional ones. And you Christians talk about the love of God for humans so much that he sacrificed his "only begotten son". Do you think He doesn't love Muslims even little enough that He won't allow us to lie in the battlefield to save numerous other Muslim lives?

And your proof is all philosophy. Get real. And fine, I don't see Christ but you do right then why not show me a PHYSICAL proof of it.

Christians and Muslims have very different understanding of the world 'prophet'. It could take a thread in its own. The scribes were interested in conveying relevant truth for the people of God to understand their situation in relation to God. Once you know the story of Salvation, only then you can understand why stories were chosen to be written as well as why certain books were selected to be included in the Bible while others were not.

Christians don't receive their commandments from Paul, but from God. Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.

And the way you keep talking as if you are God's prophet and the only one who knows what is right and wrong. The way you keep expressing yourself as superior over everyone else (including Christians) is despicable. Christ was a humble man and you seem to be his most ardent follower (but with arrogance).

 

[missy]

The important thing is that we acknoweldge our sin and repent for it. It makes an infinite difference if we did not acknowledge that it was a sin and did not repent for it.

True! So, don’t you feel the need to do so?

Christians existed long before Saul/Paul was a Christian.

Yeah right! So now you’re saying that Christianity didn’t result from Paul’s genius, it existed long before?!

The truth is that Jesus (pbuh) was a true Muslim and believed in Allah SWT alone and so did his disciples and he preached Islam and prophesized the coming of the last Messenger of God, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was Paul who invented Christianity and all of its blasphemous claims.

I guess it’s time you give in bro, cuz it’s really not right to lie. And it seems you know that very well!

So I suggest you repent, it’ll make an infinite difference if you acknowledge your mistake….I’m serious.

As about what I said about Christ. I showed you evidence and I am still showing it, but you can not take it. Here it is again: Walk in the truth and you will see Christ. Renounce all falsehood, stick to the truth, honor it, and tell me that you did not see Christ; I tell you, you will not pass three days without seeing Christ.
But if you insist on falsehood, there is the other side of the evidence: you will not see him.

Hmmm…interesting!

So how’s it like to see Christ??


In order to prove you’re point you need to get out of your fantasy world.

If you claim to be truthful, can you prove that....
1)Jesus claimed to be God/son of God?
2)Jesus died for the sins of mankind?
3)Belief in his death is the only way to salvation?
4)Bible is the word of God?

 

[Amigo]

you can not see that which you turn your back against.
Evidence is a department of truth.
How can you see evidence while turning toward falsehood?
It is falsehood which presents fantasy, truthfullness presents reality.
It requires great humility to walk in truth and greater humility still to remain in it....strong faith to believe it.
It requires great pride to walk in falsehood, even greater arrogance to defend it... but great fear to believe it.

Those who seek God sincerely try to offer Him the purest sacrifice.
Those who trust God are never desapointed, for He is mighty and ever faithful.
He can not abondon those who entrust themselves fully to him.
He defends them and set them free from their mighty oppressors: darkness, fear, pain, sin, and death.
He rises them up to shine in Him. For He is sublime light, Truth and Life, true love which never end, life of the saints.
But those who turn to darkness offer themselves to slavery, lies, and murders.
For they turn to the dominion of the prince of darkness,
The fallen one; Liar and a Murderer from the beginning and they serve him

But the Lord is good, when they call on him, he saves them.
If they turn to face Him, he does not look away.
When he lifts up their faces, they see him. He shines on them and all darkness flee.
For He is mighty and all merciful. He saves and sets free.
Glory be to him forever and ever. For He is good. He is perfectly good. He is most Holy.

 

[Ramadhan]

^ you always create your own verses, and never takes one from your own God.

So are you a prophet now?

And you have not answered this question of mine:

Well, you claimed that christians must never lie, but saul of tarsus, whose words you take as guidance over the words of God and prophet/messenger Jesus (pbuh), clearly said several times that christians are allowed to lie.

So who's right?
God? saul? you?

 

[Ali_008]

Like I've said before, in the veil of "worshiping Christ", Amigo has fallen into the worst of traps i.e. arrogance. He believes he's above and beyond every other human and I think it's high time he realizes that behind that veil he is actually worshiping himself because he doesn't believe in any verses and believes what he says/feels/thinks to be the word of God. As good as calling himself the vessel between God and humans. ASTAGHFIRULLAH.

It is falsehood which presents fantasy, truthfullness presents reality.
It requires great humility to walk in truth and greater humility still to remain in it....strong faith to believe it.
It requires great pride to walk in falsehood, even greater arrogance to defend it... but great fear to believe it.

Your visions of Christ = fantasy

if they were real then where's the proof?

I loved this line "It requires great pride to walk in falsehood, even greater arrogance to defend it... but great fear to believe it." because that's exactly my opinion about you.

 

[Amigo]

How very you to regret me not having concern of Bible verse after removing a post where I indicate a verse filled Christian study in the thread where I would be expected to do just that Don't you think, Ramadhan, it would be nice if you give a short description of what you remove from people's post so that other readers can have an idea.... not that it would matter much though to some...

 

[Ramadhan]

How very you to regret me not having concern of Bible verse after removing a post where I indicate a verse filled Christian study in the thread where I would be expected to do just that Don't you think, Ramadhan, it would be nice if you give a short description of what you remove from people's post so that other readers can have an idea.... not that it would matter much though to some...

I removed the part of your post where it contained christian propaganda.
And you have been warned before that non-muslim propaganda is not allowed.

Now imagine this: If I go to a catholic forums, and I posted links to Ahmad Deedat, don't you agree that they would have kicked me out of there immediately?
You are lucky that we muslims are far more tolerant, and that you are free to discuss your religion and that we even tolerate your empty words without evidence from your own scriptures.

Now, you claimed that christians MUST NOT lie in ANY SITUATION.

But I have shown you that saul of tarsus commanded you to lie in order to spread christianity.

So, who lied?

You? or Saul of Tarsus?
or both lied?

Please answer this.

 

[Ali_008]

Brother Ramadhan, I can almost guarantee that instead of answering your question he'll go philosophical again. Something like:

"Don't seek answers from me. God gives truth, I just blabber fiction. You are in darkness because you don't worship me and I'm enlightened because I said so. I don't care what your question is. I'm God, I'm Prophet, you are murderer/rapist/liar wandering in darkness blah blah blah"

 

[hariananta]

Here are some quotes from sacred hindu scriptures. Kindly reflect your views on them:

Tulsidas' Ramcharitmanas states: "Jaki rahi bhavana jaisi, prabhu murat dekhi tin taisi" - A person's attitude/devotion determines how he sees God.

Quotes from Bhagwad Gita(Most Sacred Scripture of the Hindus)
GOD says the following:

1. “Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed.”


2. "It is better to do one’s own duty, however defective it may be, than to follow the duty of another, however well one may perform it. He who does his duty as his own nature reveals it, never sins. ”


3. ”Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is.”

4."Still your mind in me, still yourself in me, and without a doubt you shall be united with me, Lord of Love, dwelling in your heart"
5. "Hypocrisy,arrogance,pride,anger,harshness and ignorance; these are the marks of those who are born with demonic qualities"

​

Other lines from sacred Hindu Scriptures:

Honor your mother as God, Honor your Father as God, Honor thy teacher as God - Upanishads
Children should follow in their parents footsteps and having become like them, serve them to the best of their ability - Atharva Veda
God is one but sages call it by different names, devotees see it in different forms - Rigveda

​

 

[جوري]

1. “Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed.”

Are Hindus allowed to drink alcohol?

best,