How is the test of life fair?

[john.bob]

[MENTION=282]*charisma*[/MENTION] by your logic you are stating that it is OK for god to be unfair as along as we don't no about it. I'm sorry but regardless of what knowledge we have the test of life Allah has created is flawed and you're telling me to accept it because I won't know about someone who lives longer.

Also if two people are sitting exams one has 10 questions and the other has 20 questions than they are doing different exams. If that is the case when did we get a choice of which exam we want to take, if Allah assigned it to us, how can we tell it is fair?

@najumuddin I understand what you are saying, but that means we are correct to assume god is unjust, because based on the knowledge god has given us that is the only conclusion we can come to. In the same manner a Christian can argue you won't understand trinity because god has limited your knowledge and you are being misguided by Satan.
[MENTION=36993]eesa the kiwi[/MENTION] yes, but I have a sound argument as to why I didn't accept Islam, as I couldn't find an answer to justify why Allah is Just. Also your answer doesn't answer my question, so please post here if you want to discuss my question.

 

[SidratulMuntah]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION] Look, some things you did not tell them. I just used them to explain, to better understand.
Your answers just show one more time, that you are not really interested in finding the truth. You just want to compromite Islam. The same as I said: you think, you are very smart, but in real, you turn around in a circle. When someone gave you a detailed answer here, you start again with the first question. You don’t want to accept, you just want to discuss. You don’t accept the answers. People like you, you can give them 1000 evidences, 1000 explanations, but they will reject, they will not believe. So it makes no sense to debate with you for this question any longer. Because you will start from the beginning again and again and none here will repeat all the answers again.

No, there’s no issue between Tom and Bob. You make it an issue. You have a complicated thinking and your mind is limited. You try to think like God. But none here is able to do that. Some questions will remain open until the day of resurrection or the day of judgement. It’s not unfair against Tom, that he died earlier than Bob. I told you already, that Allah knew, Bob will never accept Islam, even if he gave him 400 years to live. Don’t you understand that. But that’s just one possible explanation. There can be tons of others for God. We can’t know. Some things you must accept them, as they are.

No, wrong. We don’t get all the same exam. Allah tests different people in different ways. Very logic. If it’s always the same exam, people can prepare for that. That’s not the sense of an exam. It’s like in school. The questions of an exam change with every year. Exceptions may be there, but we talk in general.

No, free will is free will. And there’s no contradiction in it, that we don’t control suicide. Yes, for sure, we commit it finally and we decide. But as I said, every deed of free will happens with the permission of God. So finally he in real controls it. I told you too, that Allah allowed these things in advance, because he gave us the free will and he does not interfere, because he is absolutely just. But the point is: if he would want to interfere, he could. And so with him is the last word.

No, babies are not more favoured. It’s just a fact that they go to paradise, because they still don’t undergo the test. They don’t sin. Why should they go to hell? Putting them into he’ll would be unfair. That they surely go to paradise is just logic. I don’t know, what’s you discussion now for that point. It should be clear.
And it’s clear, that some people are more favoured and others less. That depends on their capabilities. The paradise is a high award. Only the best will go there. That should be clear.

It’s like in life too. Not every person can become a vascular surgeon. Only the best ones, who made most efforts and most struggle to get the best marks/points in their exams.

Hhhhh, to die young is not a criterion for getting into paradise.
OK, well… my answer to this post will end here now. Other posts, we will see.. But here it makes no more sense in my opinion to debate more. I said all, what I wanted to say and what I can say to this. We just would go around like in a carousel.

 

[MazharShafiq]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION] Look, some things you did not tell them. I just used them to explain, to better understand.
Your answers just show one more time, that you are not really interested in finding the truth. You just want to compromite Islam. The same as I said: you think, you are very smart, but in real, you turn around in a circle. When someone gave you a detailed answer here, you start again with the first question. You don’t want to accept, you just want to discuss. You don’t accept the answers. People like you, you can give them 1000 evidences, 1000 explanations, but they will reject, they will not believe. So it makes no sense to debate with you for this question any longer. Because you will start from the beginning again and again and none here will repeat all the answers again.

No, there’s no issue between Tom and Bob. You make it an issue. You have a complicated thinking and your mind is limited. You try to think like God. But none here is able to do that. Some questions will remain open until the day of resurrection or the day of judgement. It’s not unfair against Tom, that he died earlier than Bob. I told you already, that Allah knew, Bob will never accept Islam, even if he gave him 400 years to live. Don’t you understand that. But that’s just one possible explanation. There can be tons of others for God. We can’t know. Some things you must accept them, as they are.

No, wrong. We don’t get all the same exam. Allah tests different people in different ways. Very logic. If it’s always the same exam, people can prepare for that. That’s not the sense of an exam. It’s like in school. The questions of an exam change with every year. Exceptions may be there, but we talk in general.

No, free will is free will. And there’s no contradiction in it, that we don’t control suicide. Yes, for sure, we commit it finally and we decide. But as I said, every deed of free will happens with the permission of God. So finally he in real controls it. I told you too, that Allah allowed these things in advance, because he gave us the free will and he does not interfere, because he is absolutely just. But the point is: if he would want to interfere, he could. And so with him is the last word.

No, babies are not more favoured. It’s just a fact that they go to paradise, because they still don’t undergo the test. They don’t sin. Why should they go to hell? Putting them into he’ll would be unfair. That they surely go to paradise is just logic. I don’t know, what’s you discussion now for that point. It should be clear.
And it’s clear, that some people are more favoured and others less. That depends on their capabilities. The paradise is a high award. Only the best will go there. That should be clear.

It’s like in life too. Not every person can become a vascular surgeon. Only the best ones, who made most efforts and most struggle to get the best marks/points in their exams.

Hhhhh, to die young is not a criterion for getting into paradise.
OK, well… my answer to this post will end here now. Other posts, we will see.. But here it makes no more sense in my opinion to debate more. I said all, what I wanted to say and what I can say to this. We just would go around like in a carousel.

Aslaam o alikum
it is absolutely right and informative and benefit explanation if you want understand it.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you john.bob; I am a Christian, and I have learned a great deal from my Muslim brothers and sisters on this forum.

Therefore God has made an incorrect statement, which than disproves god. please answer what god could say to the individual I spoke of in my last post, then I will reply with an response to counter that. I am not concerned with things such as who knows what if someone dies earlier, I am merely observing the system god created and testing if truly is a fair test for everyone

Either God the creator of the universe and life exists fully and totally, or there is no god. You will only find God when you start to change yourself and your attitude towards God. Study and reflect on the 99 names of Allah, who wants goodness for ALL his creation.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[eesa the kiwi]

[MENTION=282]*charisma*[/MENTION] by your logic you are stating that it is OK for god to be unfair as along as we don't no about it. I'm sorry but regardless of what knowledge we have the test of life Allah has created is flawed and you're telling me to accept it because I won't know about someone who lives longer.

Also if two people are sitting exams one has 10 questions and the other has 20 questions than they are doing different exams. If that is the case when did we get a choice of which exam we want to take, if Allah assigned it to us, how can we tell it is fair?

@najumuddin I understand what you are saying, but that means we are correct to assume god is unjust, because based on the knowledge god has given us that is the only conclusion we can come to. In the same manner a Christian can argue you won't understand trinity because god has limited your knowledge and you are being misguided by Satan.

[MENTION=36993]eesa the kiwi[/MENTION] yes, but I have a sound argument as to why I didn't accept Islam, as I couldn't find an answer to justify why Allah is Just. Also your answer doesn't answer my question, so please post here if you want to discuss my question.

No you dont have a sound argument so dont try and kid yourself. You are basically saying you know better audhoo billah than the One who created the heavens and earth

Cant you see the arrogance here? That the Creator is wrong audhoo billah and John Bob has figured it all out. Humble yourself

I'm sorry but this is sheer foolishness so don't say you have a sound argument. Saying things like God has made an incorrect statement. Who exactly do you think you are? Show me what you have Created

Now as for your points theres a verse in the Quran that answers all of them


أَلَا يَعْلَمُ مَنْ خَلَقَ وَهُوَ اللَّطِيفُ الْخَبِيرُ

(67:14) Does He who created not know, while He is the Subtle, the Acquainted?



Islam is to accept that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah alone and Muhammad sallaho alayhi wa sallam is his servant and messenger. If you accept this and remain steadfast then inshaAllah paradise will be yours. If you reject then you are risking a fire whose fuel is men and stones

Peace be upon those who accept guidance

 

[john.bob]

[MENTION=43972]SidratulMuntah[/MENTION] to you it seems that I am going around in circle, but from reading your and others answer I can clearly see holes in them. Unlike you I am not a Muslim and therefore not afraid to ask the difficult questions, that can affect the delicate balance of my religion. I am here to point out that you should consider everything before committing to something. My question looks complicated but is very simple, all you have to do is state whether you think Tom should go to hellfire based on what we know. e.g. He clearly has been exposed to Islam and therefore should go to hellfire, but as we know that also arises various issues. Such as How is it fair that he did not live to the same age as Bob who began like Tom but became a Muslim at a later age. Had Bob died earlier he would have died a disbeliever like Tom. Tom will now have an valid argument against God that he was supposed to be given a chance to live on earth to show evidence as to what he would have done with free will; but his life was cut short and failed to show the evidence. Should God have let him live to the age Bob he would have no complaint as this would show equivalent evidence. Think of this scenario:

God created Tom to give him a chance to create evidence that he would be a Muslim or not, which is the point of this test/ life on this earth. Because we know God could simply said to him that I know what you will do with your life right till the end no matter what age you lived to, so I can send you to hell or heaven now. Instead God let him have his chance. But by taking his life at 18 for example and then saying to him on the Judgement day that no matter what age you lived to you were always going to be a disbeliever. It makes giving him a chance pointless as God could have said that before sending him to this test. So why let him live till 18 for no reason. We all know that most people in the west at the age of 18-25 for example majority are people are naive and may not take religion seriously. This scenario is especially made worse if another person Bob who is similar to Tom accepts Islam at a later age and dies a believer, Tom has now an argument against God as to why he wasn't given equal chance/length to Bob.

In regards to tests and how they are fair/ unfair I have a separate issue that I will post later once I am satisfied with an answer for this question.

The description of free will you described is not free will if the individual had to seek permission from God, as this implies that God is indeed in control and therefore the individual does not have the free will to kill himself. This is because God could deny his permission and therefore stopping him from killing himself.



In regards to babies, I admit it would be unfair to send them to hellfire but it would also be unfair to send them to paradise, this is because they haven't earned the right to go to either. It is particularly unfair if we consider that like me and you babies asked God to send them to earth so we can take this test, but the babies lives were taken away at a young age. Similarly, many people would agree that the test of life is very hard and would prefer to die as a infant and get automatic paradise. Now that is unfair? please before simply saying it is fair give an valid argument as to why?
[MENTION=370]Eric H[/MENTION] you are here debating me when you should be trying to convert your Muslim 'brothers and sisters' to Christianity to save them from hellfire; as we know that both Islam and Christianity contradict one another. Likewise, you have not attempted to answer my question once and are merely making a fool of yourself defending those whom to you are destined for hellfire. The fact that you haven't accepted Islam implies that you have some issues that you don't agree with clearly in Islam, maybe you should go and post a separate question and try to get them resolved, or try to maybe convert Muslims to save them from hellfire as non-Christians are destined for hellfire according to Christianity.
[MENTION=36993]eesa the kiwi[/MENTION] your arguments make no sense at all, I have been given a brain by God which I am supposed to use to ponder about Gods creation. I do not have to be a God in order to ask these questions, when I say God has made a incorrect statement, I am not saying God is wrong; I am merely stating that according to what has revealed to me i am correct to assume that. e.g. If I showed only green birds and never ever showed you any other colored birds, you have a right to now assume that all birds are green. If take your argument and test it we can see that a Christian could easily say Jesus is God and therefore we cannot question him as we ourselves did not achieve any of his feats. I don't know more than God for sure, but I know enough to say that this test of life is unfair (based on everything I have read and seen), if God want to prove me wrong I would like it if God would reveal the answer to me.

 

[Nájlá]

John,

You are going round in circles. We have answered your question but the problem is you have doubts and you want to argue and proof God is not real or unfair. You are not trying to seek answers rather you are seeking to challenge God.

We have told you:

1. God created us to only WORSHIP him.
2. We have free will.
3. Everything about us is a test, including AGE. There are 7 doors to hell, someone who lives only 15 years their test was probably to just Beleive in GOD after given the warning. That is probably what their test was before they die. Where as someone who lives 70 years will have different tests. Is this fair? Yes of course.

Someone who lives 70 years they will be tested with a lot even if they convert they will continue to be tested. This person will be held accountable for a lot of stuff when their book of deeds is given to them. This is just an example that we can think of it. But it all goes back to Gods wisdom.

We are in a TEST. This test isn't easy nor is it fixed. Nor are we fixed. Our death isn't fixed. Our age isn't fixed. Our challenges isn't fixed.


We cannot say why is this or why not this. God is the most WISE and he has only given us a small brain to help us pass the test. Why do you question what is fair for someone and what isn't for someone else? When they themselves will not even say this on the day of judgement?

To be a believer you have to belief in Allah's 99 names and leave the rest to him. We cannot compare our tiny brain to God's wisdom. Surly the quran tells us He knows and we do not.

You have lived to see a lot of years, why haven't you converted? Would you say it wasn't fair ? When you was given long enough to live?

 

[azc]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION]:

So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.
And you think that those Christians on IB who don't invite Muslims to Christianity are fool.

@ *charisma*
@ eesa the kiwi

- - - Updated - - -
[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION]:

So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.
And you think that those Christians on IB who don't invite Muslims to Christianity are fool.

@ *charisma*
@ eesa the kiwi

 

[john.bob]

You are going round in circles. We have answered your question but the problem is you have doubts and you want to argue and proof God is not real or unfair. You are not trying to seek answers rather you are seeking to challenge God.

Yes, we are going in circle as no one seems to be able to understand the question correctly and provided a logical argument with any authentic sources, instead all I am getting is different opinions and some of which contradict each other and others are simply off topic. The reason I posted the question here is to seek an answer and just because I have not accepted your answer does not mean I am challenging Islam it simply means I am still waiting for an answer that will satisfy me and not leave me with more questions.

1. God created us to only WORSHIP him.
2. We have free will.

These are not related to the topic of my question and I am not really concerned with these points nor I am I challenging them.

3. Everything about us is a test, including AGE. There are 7 doors to hell, someone who lives only 15 years their test was probably to just Beleive in GOD after given the warning. That is probably what their test was before they die. Where as someone who lives 70 years will have different tests. Is this fair? Yes of course.

Please show me from which authentic source you have obtained this information, such as age being a test and 7 doors to hell.

Also, a typical 18-25 year old in a western society will be distracted in life and many either become devout Muslim and others don't, those that had short lifespan will fill cheated as they we know the older you get the more wiser you will be in most cases and many have changed their entire life around (I have seen this first hand), so they will want to reach that level of maturity so that on the day of judgement they have that evidence to show for it (the whole point of this test in the first place). For some becoming a practising Muslim will take longer and I have seen that, but that doesn't mean their test should be cut short; just because GOD knew that they will never change; then why give them this test in the first place. 15 year is a long time but assuming someone has encountered Islam at 18; but as mentioned they feel like its not that important, due to worldly distractions; like many in western societies. However, they died at 20 while slowly getting closer to Islam but not yet practising, GOD knows whether they would have become a devout Muslim, but is it fair to end his life with only 2 years to fully grasp Islam; he will feel cheated; as others are given 15-20 years to get themselves in a stable situation then finally focus on religion. Some people I have not only met but seen on the News have gone on to achieve great feat in the Islamic world but their beginning was not Islamic at all, they feel blessed unlike others to have been given this length of opportunity to grasp Islam.

We cannot say why is this or why not this. God is the most WISE and he has only given us a small brain to help us pass the test. Why do you question what is fair for someone and what isn't for someone else? When they themselves will not even say this on the day of judgement?

This is not a valid argument as a Christian can use this argument to justify their religion, for example; they can say that Jesus their lord has not given us the capability to understand the Trinity therefore we must have belief and accept it.

I have just pointed a valid argument a person who died in his 18, 19, 20, etc can have on the day of judgement.

You have lived to see a lot of years, why haven't you converted? Would you say it wasn't fair ? When you was given long enough to live?

To accept something like a new religion which I am completely open too, you must first clear the mind of any doubt and the best place to start is with those who have knowledge in this field; the very fact that I am here seeking an answer shows my dedication. Also, please don't take my responses as an attack, as I feel that everyone else is attacking me as a person rather then actually tackle my question. Thank You.

- - - Updated - - -

So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.
And you think that those Christians on IB who don't invite Muslims to Christianity are fool.

Never have I said I am a Christian but rather I am someone seeking the right path in life, I have respect for all religion.

What you are trying to do is attack me; when I have done nothing wrong by give someone logical advice.

Also no I do not think that Christians in IB are fools if they don't invite Muslims to Christianity, you just wrote it to make me look bad to other reading it, but I am sure most people here are smart and see though what you are trying to do.

Also, if you are going to post something please try to answer the question and simply attacking someone seeking an answer is not going to help your integrity as a Muslim, as I am quite sure Muslim are supposed to invite other to their religion not attack them and make false acquisitions about them.

 

[azc]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION]:

Eric H, you are here debating me when you should be trying to convert your Muslim 'brothers and sisters' to Christianity to save them from hellfire; as we know that both Islam and Christianity contradict one another. Likewise, you have not attempted to answer my question once and are merely making a fool of yourself defending those whom to you are destined for hellfire.

So, You are a Christian and you think that Muslims are destined as people of hell fire and Christians are people of heaven.
[MENTION=282]*charisma*[/MENTION]
[MENTION=36993]eesa the kiwi[/MENTION]

 

[azc]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION]: Dear friend, read your post #46 (which partially has been quoted above) and see what you've advised to bro Eric H.

 

[Nájlá]

Please show me from which authentic source you have obtained this information, such as age being a test and 7 doors to hell.

1. "Indeed the hell fire is the dwelling place of them all. It has seven gates and within each gate there is an
appropriate punishment for each inhabitant…"(Hijr: 44)

2. Everything is written down about each person way before they are born. If someone's death is written at 70, then their age is a test as in what have they done in those 70 years. Same applies for any other age. There will be different levels to hell just like there will be different levels to paradise. And there is clear evidence for why is that. Because we all don't deserve the same paradise or the same punishment. It all goes back to what we have done in this life.

Also, a typical 18-25 year old in a western society will be distracted in life and many either become devout Muslim and others don't, those that had short lifespan will fill cheated as they we know the older you get the more wiser you will be in most cases and many have changed their entire life around (I have seen this first hand), so they will want to reach that level of maturity so that on the day of judgement they have that evidence to show for it (the whole point of this test in the first place). For some becoming a practising Muslim will take longer and I have seen that, but that doesn't mean their test should be cut short; just because GOD knew that they will never change; then why give them this test in the first place. 15 year is a long time but assuming someone has encountered Islam at 18; but as mentioned they feel like its not that important, due to worldly distractions; like many in western societies. However, they died at 20 while slowly getting closer to Islam but not yet practising, GOD knows whether they would have become a devout Muslim, but is it fair to end his life with only 2 years to fully grasp Islam; he will feel cheated; as others are given 15-20 years to get themselves in a stable situation then finally focus on religion. Some people I have not only met but seen on the News have gone on to achieve great feat in the Islamic world but their beginning was not Islamic at all, they feel blessed unlike others to have been given this length of opportunity to grasp Islam.

.

Look we can be here all day and say what if and what isn't.

How about a muslim youth who dies so young? And wasn't able to practise one of the basic pillars of a muslim. Prayer. I told you we are tested in different ways. At each stage of our life each of us is tested in a way and something is expected of us. A 15 year old muslim is expected to start praying.. A 15 year old non muslim is expected to be a muslim before he dies. Because warning would have came their way.

Don't give me the excuse of maturity etc that's just lazy. We are in a test and Allah will give each of us signs. We are the ones to make a choice.

 

[MidnightRose]

@najumuddin I understand what you are saying, but that means we are correct to assume god is unjust, because based on the knowledge god has given us that is the only conclusion we can come to.

The knowledge Allah has given us shows that we cannot understand His infinite wisdom. This knowledge tells us that we are not correct to assume anything contrary to this.

In the same manner a Christian can argue you won't understand trinity because god has limited your knowledge and you are being misguided by Satan.

This is one of the reasons Allah sent Al-Amin, the Prophet Muhammad :saws:. To explicitly teach the people the fallacy of such beliefs.

 

[john.bob]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] I never said he is a fool rather he is making himself look like one and I am merely making a suggestion, also here you are again making a post yet not contributing to the topic at hand. If you have no answer please stop posting pointless post which adds nothing to the argument.

@najla you have given me one source but not the other, I guess I'll wait for your next post for that one; thank you.

Also, I am not sure about you but most Muslim youth in where I live and across most western countries have very little interest in Islam; but many do become very devout Muslim much later in life; but according to you I guess if they die before then; they deserve hell fire. This seems very unfair.

Furthermore, GOD created the typical youth to be naive and warning coming at them at a young age can be hard for them to interpret as something very serious, so many will simply dismiss it; however it isn't their fault its how they were created.

This is one of the reasons Allah sent Al-Amin, the Prophet Muhammad . To explicitly teach the people the fallacy of such beliefs.

The Christian does not take the Quran as the word of GOD so stating this would be pointless and using belief as an argument is very subjective.

 

[MidnightRose]

The Christian does not take the Quran as the word of GOD so stating this would be pointless and using belief as an argument is very subjective.

Your not believing in the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad :saws: has no effect on its reality.

You see, that is the person who taught us how to think properly :saws:.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you john.bob;

and are merely making a fool of yourself defending those whom to you are destined for hellfire.

You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God, I quote this at the bottom of each of my posts. As it happens, this is very much in line with the first name of Allah - Ar-Rahmaan The Beneficent He who wills goodness and mercy for all His creatures.

We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation, and that has to mean caring for each other despite our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[azc]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION]:

When you have already decided that Muslims are destined for hell then obviously you can not convert to Islam...

Right...?

All your questions have been answered categorically by other users but I know you are not going to be convinced at all.

Are you ready to answer my questions...?

Q: has bible been corrupted...?

 

[MazharShafiq]

yes. I have also seen he do not want to learn about Islam.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

This is relevant.

Blurb


Why-Islam presents Sh. Omar Suleiman who asks important questions about our goal in life. Is the enjoyment of life the ultimate goal worth living for? Can a blind and homeless individual be more content than a famous actor? Explore why individuals display such varying levels of contentment.

 

[greenhill]

Salam to all.

Reading this thread made me think differently and it made me consider things not in my normal thought process..

The thing is, in Islam we are only accountable for our own actions. Where we end up, heaven or hell, has no bearing on others and where others end up has no bearing on us. Our ‘trade’ to heaven or hell depends on our actions and intentions in our lifetime and we should be primarily concern with that. Everyone will ‘trade’ differently with different points motivating them (or demotivating them).

So so how is Allah Just in all this?

Seeing as everyone has his or her own journey with their own predestined period, the judgement is between themselves and Allah at the point of their meeting. We do not know the parameters that make up their story, just as others do not know the make up of our own story.

At at the end of the day, it could be said that I was so distracted with what appears to be injustice to other people that I neglected myself.

So, if the issue is ONLY about that and other matters are acceptable to you with regards to the faith, then know that in Islam it is forbidden for you to judge others because of where it has lead this topic- trying to understand God’s way and rejecting God when the topic becomes complex when actually all we had to do was to get on with it.


eace: