If Jesus and the Father are "One", how is it possible for Jesus to pray to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane "...Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26:39 and how is it possible for Jesus to sit at the right hand of Himself?
How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?
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I don't say that the Christian concept of God is the same as what I have. To imply that Allah and "the Father" are the same thing is incorrect, because the title Father implies having a son or daughter which ALL Muslims will deny most vehemently! Muslims pray to the same God that Jesus prayed to.
..but, of course. Every one believes those of differing beliefs (or no belief) are wrong. If two people are saying contradictory things, then they can't both be right.
Keltoi
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Here you have to look at the nature of Christ as being both of the flesh and of God. The Almighty power that is God was not present within Christ during His time on Earth. He was of the flesh. With all that brings with it. When Christ is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, He is doing so knowing full well that He is taking upon Himself the sins of the world. As a consequence, Christ did not have the intimate communion with God. Simply imagine what it would be like to have that kind of intimate connection with God, only to have that string cut so that sinners might achieve salvation.
I think the confusion here is the lack of understanding about who and what Christians believe Christ to be. I think many non-Christians mistakenly assume that since Christ is the essence of God in the flesh that means there was no God in Heaven during Christ's years on Earth. Of course there was. Jesus was fully man, but His essence was divine. When the intimate communion with God was no longer there for Him, Christ felt fear and doubt, as He was of the flesh.
No doubt it is a complicated concept to get one's head around. Someone much more knowledgable than me on the subject could probably find the words to explain it more clearly. Perhaps Grace Seeker might like to add something to the discussion.
Keltoi
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In general, the name of Father applied to deity signifies that he is the origin of what is subject to him, a supreme and powerful authority, a patriarch, and protecter.
The Jewish people also referred to God as the "Father".
I will keep it simple for you and one question I will ask (although I asked yesturday e few times and got no reply).
tell me: was Moses a God-man too?
"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1
tell me: was Moses a God-man too?
"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. " Exodus 7:1
Keltoi
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From what I understand this passage is referring to Moses and his interaction with the Pharaoh, who believed himself to be a god. By giving Moses the power to perform "god-like" miracles, Moses appeared as a fellow "god" to the Pharoah. Aaron served as the mouthpiece of Moses to the Pharaoh, which I suppose is the reason for the allusion to a "prophet", as Moses was a prophet to the true God.
So the obvious answer is no. Moses is not God.
So the bible says God for Moses but you say no God. For Jesus bible says nowhere God, but you say God. How marvelous. Why do you not use the same explanation for Jesus? Do you not see how messed up your beliefs and principles are?
Keltoi
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No I don't see how "messed up" my beliefs and principles are. The passage you posted is easily understood in context. It is in no way stating that Moses is God. The fact that you believe it does leads me to believe you didn't really read the passage, only took that quote from a source of your own.
When talking about Jesus, the passage dictates the context in your eyes. When talking about others the context dictates the meaning of the passage. This is your messed up principles. Anyway you can not see such as you are already indictrinated by these principles. Just do yourself a favor. Read the bible again with your eyes open and think for yourself. You might be surprised what you will find. Do yourself at least this justice. Or you can choose to stay the way you are. It is up to you. As I said before, you have your religion and I have mine.
Keltoi
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No offense, but I don't need your advice as to my own faith. The one thing we can agree on though is your last sentence.
Yes indeed. Let's leave it at that then shall we?
Keltoi
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I don't mind answering productive questions if the question is posed in the spirit of understanding and worthwhile communication, but something tells me you are interested in neither. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
I forgive you.
Redeemed
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You are confusing Christians with Catholics. Many Catholics do not consider themsleves Christians, because they believe that Mary is the mother of God. In fact, they even pray to her. Mary is not the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus. I know that must sound confusing, but actually it is not. She is the mother of the biological Part of Christ - not the mother of His divinity. He is true man from true man and true God from true God. Catholics, however, believe this too. I was born and raise Catholic. My family doesn't understand why I don't identify with being Catholic. They pray to Mary, they confess their sins to a priest whom they call father. Jesus said, "Call no man your father on earth for one is your Father in heaven." There are many other points that I don't agree with being Catholic. Nevertheless, I agree with Keloti. Those who choose to say we believe in 3 God's are just wanting to believe their own ideas of the trinity concept and not what ours is. I believe there is only one God.
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Redeemed
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Moses was a type of Christ because he was Israel's savior. He was a shadow of the power of the law that faded, and we have become dead to the law through the death of Jesus who is the King of Kings! The devils hate to hear that. If the law of Moses was glorious, then how much greater is the fulfillment of the the law (Jesus). Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me." When Moses held up the serpent in the wilderness, that represented Jesus Christ, because Christ became sin for us so that we could be healed like the children of God were when they looked at the snake lifted high. Our sin went of Christ and His righteousness came on us. I would rather stand before a Holy, awesome, powerful, and terrible God hidden in the righteous spirit of Christ than my own righteous, which are filthy rages.:-[
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
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I think you may have just answered what many of us Muslims (Especialy us reverts) mean when we belive Christians are now worshiping more than one God(swt) It is very similar to your concept of the way Catholics will pray to Saints and Mary and confess their sins to a man, yet still honestly believe they are worshiping only one God(swt). Now it is true that in your heart you view the trinity as being one God(swt) however, looking from the outside in ward the appearance is quite different and the fact is many Christians no longer even pray directly to God(swt) and address all of their prayers to Jesus(as) To some of us we see this as very similar to the Catholic concept of throwing in a middle man.
جوري
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I am not confused at all... I can see with incredible LUCIDITY-- that which for you, unfortunately; should you continue along this path, will never know!
Al7mdlilah 3la ni3mat Al-Islam--
012.101 ---" Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protecting Guardian in the world and the Hereafter. Make me to die Muslim (unto Thee), and join me to the righteous."
Amên
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Redeemed
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Yes, you're coming across crystal, but it seems like we have come full circle back to were we originally started. I thought you should understand being that you used to be Christian. We believe in only one God. Jesus said pray this way "Our Father who hart in Heaven...", but we find nothing wrong with doing it in His name. Jesus said, "Anything you ask in my name I will do it."
I just believe that Jesus is the Word of God made into flesh and blood. Don't you believe that God has the power to do that???:?
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Point taken!