How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

... I'm slightly at a loss as to why you feel Islam is being attacked by non-Muslims on this forum....especially the Christian members.

I did not say that ----especially the Christian members. :statisfie



I normally avoid those participants ---does not matter how interesting the thread is .

Religious discussion is a sensitive issue ...so , sometimes it hurts & i guess , it's better if we sometimes take a little break from the forum & come back with a fresh head & mind

 

[MustafaMc]

If I had received the revelation, then I would trust the revelation from God. But what you are asking me to trust is Muhammad's (pbuh) word that he received a revelation from God. And I am asking you to trust Jesus' companions that these are the things they actually witnessed Jesus say and do and insights into his nature, character, and history which he revealed to them.

"Revelations" after Jesus' accenssion that are put on equal footing with what Muslims claim regarding the Quran.

Revelation claimed by Paul:

Galations 1:12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galations 1:15-16 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, [even] from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Ephesians 3:1-5 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in behalf of you Gentiles,--if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward; how that by revelation was made known unto me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; which in other generation was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Revelation claimed by John:

Revelations 1:1-2 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, [even] the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, [even] of all things that he saw.

Sorry, GraceSeeker, but I do not accept Paul or John as one of "his holy apostles and prophets" nor these writings as legitimate Divine Revelations. My choice is to believe Muhammad (pbuh) and to accept him as the last Messenger of the One God, Who has no father, mother, sons, daughters, or equal. I believe that the Quran is the inerrant Word of Allah.

 

[Redeemed]

Salaam/peace;





do u believe ALL Chrisitians have reserved seats in heaven ? Pl. show me verse where Bible says so ?

Hi Muslim Woman:
Yes, the Bible is replete with assurance; for instance, John 6:40 Jesus said, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." It is also witten in 1 John "These thing I write unto to you that you might know that you have eternal life and that life is in His Son." I hope this helps.
Sincerely

 

[Woodrow]

Hi Muslim Woman:
Yes, the Bible is replete with assurance; for instance, John 6:40 Jesus said, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." It is also witten in 1 John "These thing I write unto to you that you might know that you have eternal life and that life is in His Son." I hope this helps.
Sincerely

I believe that both us Muslims and Christians are assured that we do have eternal life. I do not think that is much of a question as a given fact. The question is do we spend it in Heaven or Hell fire. Neither of those verses quoted above state positvely that the eternal life will be spent in Heaven, they just verify we all will be faced with eternal life.

 

[ummzayd]

Hi Muslim Woman:
Yes, the Bible is replete with assurance; for instance, John 6:40 Jesus said, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." It is also witten in 1 John "These thing I write unto to you that you might know that you have eternal life and that life is in His Son." I hope this helps.
Sincerely

hmmm.....do you include catholics & Jehovah's Witnesses in that?

 

[Philosopher]

www.bs4a.blogspot.com

 

[Redeemed]

I believe that both us Muslims and Christians are assured that we do have eternal life. I do not think that is much of a question as a given fact. The question is do we spend it in Heaven or Hell fire. Neither of those verses quoted above state positvely that the eternal life will be spent in Heaven, they just verify we all will be faced with eternal life.

I understand your point. However, every time Jesus mentions eternal life it is in reference to heaven. He refers to the other as death, lake of fire everlasting judgment terms such as these, where the fire is not quench and worm dies not. He said apart from me you can do nothing not even live a good life. He said, "I am the vine you are the branches" the branch dies if not part of the vine.

 

[Sunnih]

Why should I belive what the Qur'an says about Jesus when it has been written without eye witnesses of what Jesus said and did? We have the Bible and in it there are witnesses who have been with Jesus. I think under the circumstances, I am better off being a Christian, because the Bible is all the truth I know. According to the Qur'an, Allah may deceide to have Mercy on me for living a holy life, but according to the Bible, there is no salvation outside of confessing Jesus as :statisfie Lord.

Again this is because your limited knowledge on islam. However I will not go into discussing this topic you have raised in detail or in part either. You can keep your beliefs and I will keep my beliefs. In the end we will see who is the victorious one.:statisfie

 

[Sunnih]

If I had received the revelation, then I would trust the revelation from God. But what you are asking me to trust is Muhammad's (pbuh) word that he received a revelation from God. And I am asking you to trust Jesus' companions that these are the things they actually witnessed Jesus say and do and insights into his nature, character, and history which he revealed to them.

But how should we understand when from one revision to another of the same bible (king James let's say) we find that what was Jesus' word before is not his word in the other and some time the whole verse/s dessapear?

 

[Grace Seeker]

So are you saying that one or more disciples witnessed Jesus' temptation and trial?

No. I am not saying that. Jesus' experience in the desert being tempted by Satan, his prayer to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, these (and others) would be among the things I was including in the last part of my statement: "and insights into his nature, character, and history which he [i.e. Jesus] revealed to them." The time between Jesus resurrection and his ascension seems to have been a time when Jesus filled his disciples in on many things that they did not fully understand (and perhaps were not able to fully receive) before it.

"Revelations" after Jesus' accenssion that are put on equal footing with what Muslims claim regarding the Quran.

Revelation claimed by Paul:

Galations 1:12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galations 1:15-16 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, [even] from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Ephesians 3:1-5 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus in behalf of you Gentiles,--if so be that ye have heard of the dispensation of that grace of God which was given me to you-ward; how that by revelation was made known unto me the mystery, as I wrote before in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; which in other generation was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Revelation claimed by John:

Revelations 1:1-2 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, [even] the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, [even] of all things that he saw.

I have no argument with you on that point. I almost said as much in my post myself. The revelation that Paul received on the road to Damascus, or any subesquent inspiration he received while writing his letters, the revelation that John received at Patmos which he records in the book of Revelation would be events that I would hold as equal in nature to what Muhammad claimed he experienced in receiving the Qur'an.

Sorry, GraceSeeker, but I do not accept Paul or John as one of "his holy apostles and prophets" nor these writings as legitimate Divine Revelations. My choice is to believe Muhammad (pbuh) and to accept him as the last Messenger of the One God, Who has no father, mother, sons, daughters, or equal. I believe that the Quran is the inerrant Word of Allah.

But on this point we differ considerably. Your choice is to believe Muhammad, mine is to believe Paul and John, servants of Jesus, the Christ, who is the One God, eternal not only in the heavens but who also came to dwell incarnate among us on earth in the person of Jesus and who today lives in the hearts of believers through the presence of his divine Holy Spirit. Further, I acknowledge that there is no longer any need for any future prophets specifically because of this divine presence of his Holy Spirit in the life of believers who continues to make God and God's will known to us on a daily basis. That by virtue of the Holy Spirits presence all persons who are in Christ are both prophet and priest for one another in accordance with God's will.

 

[Sunnih]

The revelation that Paul received on the road to Damascus, or any subesquent inspiration he received while writing his letters, the revelation that John received at Patmos which he records in the book of Revelation would be events that I would hold as equal in nature to what Muhammad claimed he experienced in receiving the Qur'an.

This is wrong as the Qur'an is not dreams but revelation from God through Gabriel. If this is doubted then it goes for the rest of people who spoke in the name of God including Jesus himself.

 

[Grace Seeker]

hmmm.....do you include catholics & Jehovah's Witnesses in that?

Answering for myself and no one else. I include Catholics, but not Jehovanh's Witness in that.




And, in case you are making a list:
I also do not include Mormons nor Christian Scientists nor Unitarians.

I do include Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Ethopian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Byzantine Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Old Catholic, Celtic Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Messianic Judaism, Moravians, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Independent Christians, Assemblies of God, Pentecostals, Christian Reformed, Congregational Churches, Mennonites, Christians Missionary Alliance, Apostolic, Amish, Quakers, Church of God, Church of God (Anderson), Church of God (Holiness), Missionary Church, Episcopalians, Anglican, Four Square Gospel, United Church of Christ, Wesleyan, Nazarene, Plymouth Brethern, New Life Churches, Open Bible Fellowships, Vineyard Fellowships, Abudant Life Tabernacles, United Church of Canada, Disciples of Christ, and most (but probably not all) non-denominational community churches.


Neither of these lists would be exclusive, just the ones I can think of off of the top of my head.

 

[Grace Seeker]

This is wrong as the Qur'an is not dreams but revelation from God through Gabriel. If this is doubted then it goes for the rest of people who spoke in the name of God including Jesus himself.

In my opinion, God speaking through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or a vision of Christ is equal to what you report of Gabriel speaking to Muhammad. That is why I said, "would be events that I would hold as equal in nature to what Muhammad claimed." The statement was not wrong. It is a true statement. It is a statement of what my beliefs are. I believe I know my beliefs better than you. You just disagree with my beliefs. But you cannot say that I inaccurately stated my beliefs, unless you also wish to claim that you know what I hold for my beliefs better than I do myself.

 

[MustafaMc]

My question was about the eye witnesses of Jesus. You know I still think I am better off as I stand, because You are going by hear say on what Jesus said and did, but I am going by eye witnesses; moreover, you are going to be judge by your works as a Muslim, and I am not, because I cannot control what I believe, but I can control with God's help what I do. I am doing the spiritual math here: You will be judge by works, and I won't. My works might be just as good as yours. That is why you don't know if on the last day Allah will accept you. I know already, because Jesus has me covered with God. It is like we are going into a court room being guilty in front of the judge, but the difference between us is you are representing yourself, and I have the best advocate in the universe. We will see each other, if not in this life, on the judgment day, and then we won't need to have these forum discussion anymore, because it will be too late.
hew

I don't count on my so called good works to earn me Heaven, I rather do them as I strive to be obedient to the Will of Allah.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

We believe that on that Day it will be the opposite of what you claim. That Jesus will deny all that Christians claim about him and that rather than being an advocate for you he will be a witness against you.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here Jesus states that those who do the will of his Father shall enter heaven. Note that Muslim means one who submits his will to Allah.

 

[Sunnih]

Answering for myself and no one else. I include Catholics, but not Jehovanh's Witness in that.




And, in case you are making a list:
I also do not include Mormons nor Christian Scientists nor Unitarians.

I do include Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Ethopian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Byzantine Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Old Catholic, Celtic Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Messianic Judaism, Moravians, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Independent Christians, Assemblies of God, Pentecostals, Christian Reformed, Congregational Churches, Mennonites, Christians Missionary Alliance, Apostolic, Amish, Quakers, Church of God, Church of God (Anderson), Church of God (Holiness), Missionary Church, Episcopalians, Anglican, Four Square Gospel, United Church of Christ, Wesleyan, Nazarene, Plymouth Brethern, New Life Churches, Open Bible Fellowships, Vineyard Fellowships, Abudant Life Tabernacles, United Church of Canada, Disciples of Christ, and most (but probably not all) non-denominational community churches.


Neither of these lists would be exclusive, just the ones I can think of off of the top of my head.

Not as a debate. On what bases do you discriminate as they all claim to believe in Jesus Christ? What is the criterion that decides you are right and they are not? Very interesting to know the reason. Thank you.

 

[Sunnih]

In my opinion, God speaking through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or a vision of Christ is equal to what you report of Gabriel speaking to Muhammad. That is why I said, "would be events that I would hold as equal in nature to what Muhammad claimed." The statement was not wrong. It is a true statement. It is a statement of what my beliefs are. I believe I know my beliefs better than you. You just disagree with my beliefs. But you cannot say that I inaccurately stated my beliefs, unless you also wish to claim that you know what I hold for my beliefs better than I do myself.

No it is not an inspiration of the holy spirit. But Gabriel speaks to Muhamed and Muhamed takes it from him. Also every month of Ramadan, Gabriel used to come and rehearse the Qur'an with Muhamed. So you will see that it is not the same. I do not speak of your beliefs but regarding your wording.

 

[Grace Seeker]

But how should we understand when from one revision to another of the same bible (king James let's say) we find that what was Jesus' word before is not his word in the other and some time the whole verse/s dessapear?

If you find the version you have chosen to be at variance with another and you truly wish to find out why they are, the difference can be three-fold:

1) difference in choice of words preferred by one translator versus a different translator , just as there are differences in translations of the Qur'an.
2) difference in the choice of the most likely original text when dealing with a disputed passage that has a variant reading in the manuscript. Most likely this will be noted in a footnote. If that is not enough information, then you will need to read the original languages and the science of textual criticism.
3) difference in a basic theological assumption of what is and is not the canon with regard to the books of: Tobit, Judith, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, The Book of Wisdom , 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, and some additional verses in Esther and Daniel. These are collectively known as the Deuterocanon accepted by Catholics and Orthodox, but not Protestants. You can learn why the difference by reading church history and learning about the origins of the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Tanakh by Jews before the time of Jesus).

The latter is the only difference that is significant in nature, has little impact on Christian theology, as it is pre-New Testament in development, and if you genuinely care as to how the difference developed you could simply learn the history and make a decision and the issue would be resolved for you.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Not as a debate. On what bases do you discriminate as they all claim to believe in Jesus Christ? What is the criterion that decides you are right and they are not? Very interesting to know the reason. Thank you.

First, not all of the groups that I excluded actually would claim that they believe in Jesus. But for those that do -- You will find that many Muslims on this board will state that they too believe in Jesus. Now we know that when a Muslim says this, they do not mean the same thing that a Christian does when they say it. Jehevoah's Witnessess, Christian Scientists, and Mormons mean it more like Muslims do and not like Christians do.

 

[Sunnih]

If you find the version you have chosen to be at variance with another and you truly wish to find out why they are, the difference can be three-fold:

1) difference in choice of words preferred by one translator versus a different translator , just as there are differences in translations of the Qur'an.
2) difference in the choice of the most likely original text when dealing with a disputed passage that has a variant reading in the manuscript. Most likely this will be noted in a footnote. If that is not enough information, then you will need to read the original languages and the science of textual criticism.
3) difference in a basic theological assumption of what is and is not the canon with regard to the books of: Tobit, Judith, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, The Book of Wisdom , 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, and some additional verses in Esther and Daniel. These are collectively known as the Deuterocanon accepted by Catholics and Orthodox, but not Protestants. You can learn why the difference by reading church history and learning about the origins of the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Tanakh by Jews before the time of Jesus).

The latter is the only difference that is significant in nature, has little impact on Christian theology, as it is pre-New Testament in development, and if you genuinely care as to how the difference developed you could simply learn the history and make a decision and the issue would be resolved for you.

Sorry may be i did not express myself clearly. I mean in king James version, if you read the publication of a certain year, it will say that the words of Jesus are such and such. If you read the same verse some years later in new publication you will find that those are no more the words of Jesus or the verses might have been taken out altogether. That is what I meant.

 

[Sunnih]

First, not all of the groups that I excluded actually would claim that they believe in Jesus. But for those that do -- You will find that many Muslims on this board will state that they too believe in Jesus. Now we know that when a Muslim says this, they do not mean the same thing that a Christian does when they say it. Jehevoah's Witnessess, Christian Scientists, and Mormons mean it more like Muslims do and not like Christians do.

I see. So their belief in Jesus from the christian prospective is in vain and will not benefit them at all right?