How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?

[Grace Seeker]

No it is not an inspiration of the holy spirit. But Gabriel speaks to Muhamed and Muhamed takes it from him. Also every month of Ramadan, Gabriel used to come and rehearse the Qur'an with Muhamed. So you will see that it is not the same. I do not speak of your beliefs but regarding your wording.

I DO understand that. And in my opinion, the inspiration that Paul received from the Holy Spirit in writing his letters IS equal in nature to Gabriel speaking aloud to Muhammad, inclusive of the annual rehearsal. I wrote as I believe and worded it as I intended.

 

[Sunnih]

I DO understand that. And in my opinion, the inspiration that Paul received from the Holy Spirit in writing his letters IS equal in nature to Gabriel speaking aloud to Muhammad, inclusive of the annual rehearsal. I wrote as I believe and worded it as I intended.

So the book of revelations then it should be taken as correct by you, in all it's judgements and applications. But you did not take this position when we spoke together about the pig's meat and those not defiled by women. Also the vision of Peter. This is why I said what I said. I am only looking at your words in relation to your other words.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I see. So their belief in Jesus from the christian prospective is in vain and will not benefit them at all right?

Their belief is not even truly belief by the Christian definitation of belief. Belief for a Christian is not believing something about Jesus, but to believe in Jesus. There is a significant difference. It is not about knowledge, but about entering into a trust relationship.


Cavet: Mormonism is an interesting case. They seem to have an ever evolving theology. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was definitely not a Christian and would have repudiated the idea that he believe the same as what he termed the "apostate" churches did. Brigham Young, the second "prophet" of Mormonism continued in the same line, but later ones have revised some of the "revelation" they claim to have received and now are much closer to expressing their faith in terms that are in accordance with the teachings of history Christianity. Mormons will dispute that they have changed their theology, but a study of the old lessons they used to teach and the newer verisions of their teachings are sufficient to give evidence of the change. So, perhaps, one day Mormonism will actually become Christian in its theology. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (an offshoot of the Mormons after Smith's death) has repudiated the non-Christian aspects of their former theology and now are a group that I would recognize as Christian (despite their non-Christian origins).

 

[Grace Seeker]

So the book of revelations then it should be taken as correct by you, in all it's judgements and applications. But you did not take this position when we spoke together about the pig's meat and those not defiled by women. Also the vision of Peter. This is why I said what I said. I am only looking at your words in relation to your other words.

I appreciate that you are trying to find consistency in my answers. I really do.

The problem with the particular passages in Revelation that you alluded to were with the literalness in which you wanted to interpret and apply them. As I remember the context of the Acts passages and of the Revelation passages are different, and that makes the difference in how they need to be understood.

 

[Sunnih]

Their belief is not even truly belief by the Christian definitation of belief. Belief for a Christian is not believing something about Jesus, but to believe in Jesus. There is a significant difference. It is not about knowledge, but about entering into a trust relationship.


Cavet: Mormonism is an interesting case. They seem to have an ever evolving theology. Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was definitely not a Christian and would have repudiated the idea that he believe the same as what he termed the "apostate" churches did. Brigham Young, the second "prophet" of Mormonism continued in the same line, but later ones have revised some of the "revelation" they claim to have received and now are much closer to expressing their faith in terms that are in accordance with the teachings of history Christianity. Mormons will dispute that they have changed their theology, but a study of the old lessons they used to teach and the newer verisions of their teachings are sufficient to give evidence of the change. So, perhaps, one day Mormonism will actually become Christian in its theology. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (an offshoot of the Mormons after Smith's death) has repudiated the non-Christian aspects of their former theology and now are a group that I would recognize as Christian (despite their non-Christian origins).

Ok. Thanks.

 

[Sunnih]

I appreciate that you are trying to find consistency in my answers. I really do.

The problem with the particular passages in Revelation that you alluded to were with the literalness in which you wanted to interpret and apply them.

I am glad you don't see it as an "attack" on your words. It is because I seek consistency in wording that all these questions of mine arise.

Thank you for being understanding.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Sorry may be i did not express myself clearly. I mean in king James version, if you read the publication of a certain year, it will say that the words of Jesus are such and such. If you read the same verse some years later in new publication you will find that those are no more the words of Jesus or the verses might have been taken out altogether. That is what I meant.

Yeah, I was surprised when I found that the publishers had done as much editing as they had. I knew that the original 1611 edition had been updated a couple of times, but the reasons are the same as those I have already outlined.

The publishers considered it a work in progress and subsequently updated the translation with a few modifications in the word choice. They also in more recent editions choose not to include the Deuter-Canon which was included in the original edition. This would have deleted not only the Deutero-canonical books, but a few verses in some of the Old Testament books. If you are finding other changes beyond that, I would suggest reading the preface at the front of the respective editions that you have which describe the process of how the translation was made. The original preface in the 1611 edition was included in many subsequent editions but I think has now been dropped. I can't really speak to the what or why of that as I've never been a big fan of the King James Version. (Not because of the quality of its translation, though some of that, as that it is written in Elizabethean English, which I don't speak.)

 

[Sunnih]

Yeah, I was surprised when I found that the publishers had done as much editing as they had. I knew that the original 1611 edition had been updated a couple of times, but the reasons are the same as those I have already outlined.

The publishers considered it a work in progress and subsequently updated the translation with a few modifications in the word choice. They also in more recent editions choose not to include the Deuter-Canon which was included in the original edition. This would have deleted not only the Deutero-canonical books, but a few verses in some of the Old Testament books. If you are finding other changes beyond that, I would suggest reading the preface at the front of the respective editions that you have which describe the process of how the translation was made. The original preface in the 1611 edition was included in many subsequent editions but I think has now been dropped. I can't really speak to the what or why of that as I've never been a big fan of the King James Version. (Not because of the quality of its translation, though some of that, as that it is written in Elizabethean English, which I don't speak.)

Is the investigation of apocrypha only in relation of king James or others also?! Did anything get removed from the bible from the other versions also? Lastly do you have any knowledge as to how the verifiers decide what is apocrypha and what is not? (any article you can point me to?). Thanks.

 

[Redeemed]

Again this is because your limited knowledge on islam. However I will not go into discussing this topic you have raised in detail or in part either. You can keep your beliefs and I will keep my beliefs. In the end we will see who is the victorious one.:statisfie

My knowledge might be limited, but you still didn't answer my original question. Now I have a new question: What is the limited knowledge on Islam I have? Instead of telling me I lack knowledge, why don't you tell me what it is I lack if you even know yourself?

 

[Sunnih]

My knowledge might be limited, but you still didn't answer my original question. Now I have a new question: What is the limited knowledge on Islam I have? Instead of telling me I lack knowledge, why don't you tell me what it is I lack if you even know yourself?

As for your limited knowledge in islam it is aparent from every post of yours and if I was to list what you do not know it would be very long indeed. It is easier to say what you do know about Islam. This would only take a few lines. (no offence ment). As for your question, first you are wrong in assuming that no eye witnesses were as it was writen in the lifetime of the prophet and while thousands of these people had it memorised just like today millions of people have it memorised as opposed to the witnesses of the bible. This is clear even from the bible as the accounts differ but this is all a diferent matter. Tell me which of those who wrote the bible were there when Jesus was "crucified" does not the bible say that: they all forsook him and fled? Take it easy now as I will not be harsh in asking you. I will be lenient in accordance with your knowledge.mg:

 

[Redeemed]

This is wrong as the Qur'an is not dreams but revelation from God through Gabriel. If this is doubted then it goes for the rest of people who spoke in the name of God including Jesus himself.

Not everyone in the Bible heard through angels many heard directly from God himself. I would have a problem trusting my eternal soul to the doctrine coming from an angel or Gabriel only. There were times that God spoke directly to the people when Jesus was a around. They were direct witnesses of what they saw and heard. Many people have had contact with the supernatural attributing it to God. For example, Joseph Smith supposedly spoke to God and Jesus Christ telling him all religions were wrong. I realize that Satan can appear as an angel of light. Do you see what I am getting at?

 

[Woodrow]

Not everyone in the Bible heard through angels many heard directly from God himself. I would have a problem trusting my eternal soul to the doctrine coming from an angel or Gabriel only. There were times that God spoke directly to the people when Jesus was a around. They were direct witnesses of what they saw and heard. Many people have had contact with the supernatural attributing it to God. For example, Joseph Smith supposedly spoke to God and Jesus Christ telling him all religions were wrong. I realize that Satan can appear as an angel of light. Do you see what I am getting at?

I was under the assumption that the only Prophets the bible mentions God(swt) speaking personaly to are Moses,Abraham and Jesus (Peace Be Upon Them). I could be wrong. But, my curiosity is now aroused, can you state any specific passages where God(swt) spoke directly to others?

 

[Sunnih]

Not everyone in the Bible heard through angels many heard directly from God himself. I would have a problem trusting my eternal soul to the doctrine coming from an angel or Gabriel only. There were times that God spoke directly to the people when Jesus was a around. They were direct witnesses of what they saw and heard. Many people have had contact with the supernatural attributing it to God. For example, Joseph Smith supposedly spoke to God and Jesus Christ telling him all religions were wrong. I realize that Satan can appear as an angel of light. Do you see what I am getting at?

Your assumtion is wrong. In the bible it says that God is a spirit who no one has seen or heard. There are a lot of other points in this regard. As for these people having supernatural this is no more than halucinations. But what I am saying to you is if satan did tempt Jesus, what makes you sure that it did not deceive or at least tempt those who wrote the bible too? I do not attack your beliefs but what i say is that whatever doubts you try to raise about the writing of the Qur'an it is much more possible to raise them for the bible.

 

[Redeemed]

I don't count on my so called good works to earn me Heaven, I rather do them as I strive to be obedient to the Will of Allah.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

We believe that on that Day it will be the opposite of what you claim. That Jesus will deny all that Christians claim about him and that rather than being an advocate for you he will be a witness against you.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here Jesus states that those who do the will of his Father shall enter heaven. Note that Muslim means one who submits his will to Allah.

Those are Jesus' words in Mathew; however, in the Qur'an I do not believe those are His words. I think those words were addressed to those Catholics that look and pray to Mary as if she were their intercessor. We do not see Mary that way. To us she was just blessed among women. I do not believe that God will ever ask Jesus a question like that, because in the Bible even God called Jesus Lord. If God called Him Lord who do we think we are not to???:?

 

[Sunnih]

Those are Jesus' words in Mathew; however, in the Qur'an I do not believe those are His words. I think those words were addressed to those Catholics that look and pray to Mary as if she were their intercessor. We do not see Mary that way. To us she was just blessed among women. I do not believe that God will ever ask Jesus a question like that, because in the Bible even God called Jesus Lord. If God called Him Lord who do we think we are not to???:?

God called him Lord? Did he mean with it God? Any way can you tell us where did he call him such?

 

[Redeemed]

Your assumtion is wrong. In the bible it says that God is a spirit who no one has seen or heard. There are a lot of other points in this regard. As for these people having supernatural this is no more than halucinations. But what I am saying to you is if satan did tempt Jesus, what makes you sure that it did not deceive or at least tempt those who wrote the bible too? I do not attack your beliefs but what i say is that whatever doubts you try to raise about the writing of the Qur'an it is much more possible to raise them for the bible.

It is written that Moses spoke to God face to face. That sounds like seeing and hearing to me!:rollseyes

 

[Sunnih]

It is written that Moses spoke to God face to face. That sounds like seeing and hearing to me!:rollseyes

you are right but this is one of the contradictions in the bible. Don't be surprised.

 

[Redeemed]

As for your limited knowledge in islam it is aparent from every post of yours and if I was to list what you do not know it would be very long indeed. It is easier to say what you do know about Islam. This would only take a few lines. (no offence ment). As for your question, first you are wrong in assuming that no eye witnesses were as it was writen in the lifetime of the prophet and while thousands of these people had it memorised just like today millions of people have it memorised as opposed to the witnesses of the bible. This is clear even from the bible as the accounts differ but this is all a diferent matter. Tell me which of those who wrote the bible were there when Jesus was "crucified" does not the bible say that: they all forsook him and fled? Take it easy now as I will not be harsh in asking you. I will be lenient in accordance with your knowledge.mg:

Thank you for you gentleness, but let me say i am a fast learner!

 

[Sunnih]

Thank you for you gentleness, but let me say i am a fast learner!

I hope so. :thumbs_up

 

[Redeemed]

you are right but this is one of the contradictions in the bible. Don't be surprised.

The Bible states that no one has seen God and lived. Look what happened to Moses after seeing just the hind part of God. He aged and died some time shortly after. I don't think it is a condraction because it even says that Jacob wrestled with God and over came but; it was really an angel, but in a sense it was God too. This will not cause me to doubt the Bible. Neverthess, it is a good point. I will look into it for clarification purposes.:thumbs_up