How the Bible and the Quran seriously view women

[Supreme]

The difference between Christianity and Islam being, of course, that Christianity has outgrown most of its historical baggage. (Discounting the lunatic fringe, of course.)
Read within the historical context, Jesus was outrageously egalitarian (and not only with regards to gender, either): He freely conversed with women in public places (such as the Samaritan woman at the well), had female followers (who, admittedly, are somewhat neglected by the gospels, but then again, the authors were probably not quite as enlightened as their venerated messiah), objected to the divorce practices of the day (which were outrageous insofar as they allowed men - and ONLY men - to cast out their wives at a whim, like you might discard an old car), and so on and so forth.

Heck, even St. Paul probably wasn't as much of a misogynist as tradition would have it: the genuine epistles not only condemn the practice of treating women as second-class citizens, but also reference female congregation members who are greeted by name (something that, in the context of the times, was outrageously unconventional).

Of course, Christianity lapsed back into the patriarchal zeitgeist within less than a dozen generations, and the middle ages were rife with misogyny. But that cannot detract from the fact that Christianity is considerably more egalitarian than Islam could ever hope to be.

 

[ccc]

I guess the same way 'King David' from your bible justified taking a child concubine on his death bed, and the same way the age of consent up to 1919 in a state such as Delaware was 7 and for the same reasons a 'woman' can be betrothed as an infant in Judaism!


Abishag Was a young virgin from the town of Shunem, North of Jezreel and Mount Gilboa, in the territory of Issachar. (Jos 19:17-23) She was "beautiful in the extreme" and was chosen by David's servants to become the nurse and companion of the king during his final days.
see 1Ki 1:1-4.
David was now about 70 years of age (2Sa 5:4, 5), and as a result of debilitation he had little body heat. Abishag waited on him during the day, doubtless brightening the surroundings with her youthful freshness and beauty, and at night she "lay in the king's bosom"
to give him warmth, but "the king himself had no intercourse with her." Nevertheless, the attitude later manifested by Solomon regarding her indicates that Abishag was viewed as being in the position of wife or concubine of David. As such, by a rule in the ancient East, she would become the property of David's heir at the time of his death.

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law?
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

Our Sages state1 that "it is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry.'" It is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry'!
In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three.2 A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen.3 Add a comment
Footnotes

• 1. Talmud Kiddushin 41a.
• 2. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 37:1.
• 3. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 43:1.

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law? | AskMoses.com - Judaism, Ask a Rabbi - Live


this one is from bringhamton.edu
of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen,

website

Campaign to Raise the Legal Age of Consent, 1885-1914, Lesson Plan

In Bible what David dd is presented as a great sin, not as a model.You can see his cryin after that, his pain when he speaks with the prophet, the only model in that is his cryin of his sins.
2 Samuel 11
25 David told the messenger, "Say this to Joab: 'Don't let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.' Say this to encourage Joab."

26 When Uriah's wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the LORD
2 samuel 12:
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "

13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die."

15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

 

[جوري]

In Bible what David dd is presented as a great sin, not as a model.You can see his cryin after that, his pain when he speaks with the prophet, the only model in that is his cryin of his sins.
2 Samuel 11
25 David told the messenger, "Say this to Joab: 'Don't let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.' Say this to encourage Joab."

26 When Uriah's wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the LORD
2 samuel 12:
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "

13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."
Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the LORD show utter contempt, [a] the son born to you will die."

15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and went into his house and spent the nights lying on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

it doesn't really matter how your bible portrays anyone, certainly even god's alleged messengers 'Lut' has sex with his two daughters.. and Jesus as per 'martin luther' was thrice the adulterer..
western secular laws as early as last century had the age of marriage and consent at 7 which is less than it was millenniums ago.. so what can I say, except perhaps familiarize yourself with your bible, with history and with Judaic laws as well the folks you take as gods or messengers before questioning what is 'moral' certainly all you do is paint yourself as an ignoramus with a severe loggerhea problem.

I don't know if you think pasting large compact irrelevant pieces that have nothing to do with the thread are convincing, I think they are classified as spam!

all the best

 

[Predator]

what kind of moral example is that and how can be justified to have sex with children?

What kind of moral example and mercy does your Lord Jesus set when he ordered the killing of young girls , women and children in the bible and how can that be justified


Ezekiel 9:5-7

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open

And then talk filth and dirt about them like this

Ezekiel chapter 23: 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses

 

[ccc]

it doesn't really matter how your bible portrays anyone, certainly even god's alleged messengers 'Lut' has sex with his two daughters.. and Jesus as per 'martin luther' was thrice the adulterer..
western secular laws as early as last century had the age of marriage and consent at 7 which is less than it was millenniums ago.. so what can I say, except perhaps familiarize yourself with your bible, with history and with Judaic laws as well the folks you take as gods or messengers before questioning what is 'moral' certainly all you do is paint yourself as an ignoramus with a severe loggerhea problem.

I don't know if you think pasting large compact irrelevant pieces that have nothing to do with the thread are convincing, I think they are classified as spam!

all the best

Secularism is by definition against religion and this has nothing to to with christian doctrine.By the way i am not "western".Judaic aws, if you would be familiarized with the bible and christianity, are not perfect in themselves, they are that kind of laws suitable for the people of those times.If there would be such laws, though i do not know any aw in western countries to allow sex with 9 year girls, they are secular laws, not christian.Before believing in prophets which do not have anything to testify for them excepting the announcement of the coming of false prophets and antichrist, make a little research for the sake of the truth not because your proud and need of self justification.

 

[جوري]

Secularism is by definition against religion and this has nothing to to with christian doctrine.By the way i am not "western".Judaic aws, if you would be familiarized with the bible and christianity, are not perfect in themselves, they are that kind of laws suitable for the people of those times.If there would be such laws, though i do not know any aw in western countries to allow sex with 9 year girls, they are secular laws, not christian.Before believing in prophets which do not have anything to testify for them excepting the announcement of the coming of false prophets and antichrist, make a little research for the sake of the truth not because your proud and need of self justification.

I know what secular means, I have pointed out that neither under secular nor Judaic or even christian laws was what you personally consider 'immoral' in fact immoral.
As for false prophets why not start with the charlatan saul? or even dissect your bible a little bit for its lewdness and frank scatology before making the leap forward ey?

and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel" (II Sam 16:22). Afterwards, the poor concubines (there were ten of them!) got imprisoned for life (II Sam 20:3).
"and after that thou shalt go in unto her" (Deut 21:13). There are many other places where the graphical phrase "go in" is used.
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off..." (Deut 23:1).
"and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets" (Deut 25:11).
"let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love" (Proverbs 5:19).
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him" (Song of Solomon 5:4).
"and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun" (II Sam 12:11).
"he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts" (Song of Sol. 1:13).
"And they committed *****doms in Egypt; ...there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity" (Ez 23:3).
"to every man a damsel or two" (Judges 5:30)
"and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake" (Matthew 19:12).
​

Many sexual crimes in the Bible go unpunished:

Lot had sex with his two daughters. One might even conclude that he had God's help in this, as he was both very old and very drunk at the time. There was no punishment for any of them. On the contrary, both daughters were rewarded with sons who founded nations (Gen 19:33-38). Earlier (Gen 19:8), Lot had offered his daughters to be used by a mob. And Peter said that Lot was a "righteous man" (2Peter 2:8).
A married man who has mistresses is not punished for adultery. Examples: Abraham (I Chron 1:32), Saul (II Sam 3:7), Gideon (Judges 8:31), Reheboam (II Chron 11:21), David (II Sam 5:13,20). But a woman who has sex outside of marriage is severely punished.
"Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard of it" (Gen 35:22). No mention of any punishment.
​

Punishment for sexual crimes was sometimes meted to innocent people, or even to the victim:

When a man has sex with a slave girl (yes, slavery is OK), he isn't to be heavily punished, but the girl is (Leviticus 19:20).
The penalty for sex with an animal is to be death not only for the man or woman, but for the poor beast as well (Leviticus 20:15,16).
A woman who doesn't scream when she gets raped is to be stoned. (Deuteronomy 22:24).
******* children are to be punished, and their descendants, too. (Deuteronomy 23:2, Isaiah 14:21).
King David had the hots for Bathsheba. So he had sex with her and then sent her husband off to die in battle. David's punishment, decreed by God, was that all his wives be publicly raped, and his newborn child would die! (II Samuel 11:2 - 12:14) (The men who did the raping presumably were not punished, since they were following God's orders.)
There are many cases where a married man has mistresses and isn't punished for adultery: Abraham (I Chron 1:32), Reheboam (II Chron 11:21), Saul (II Sam 3:7), Gideon (Judges 8:31), David (II Samuel 5:13,20).
God actually decrees fornication in Deut 28:30, where the punishment for a man's misdeed is that his fiance has sex with another man.
Judah had sex with his daughter-in-law, who was pretending to be a *****. No punishment for either of them. (Genesis 38:13-26)
A man may forcibly take a woman from enemy captives and make her his wife, after trying her out. (Deut 21:11-13)
A man is supposed to have sex with his dead brother's widow. If he refuses, he gets publicly humiliated (Deut 25:5-9). Apparently it doesn't matter whether he is already married.
When David was old and infirm, he was brought a young maiden so that he would "get heat" (I Kings 1:1-2). It didn't work.
Ruth, a young widow, acts the harlot to nab a rich husband, as her mother-in-law Naomi instructs her to do (Ruth 3:3-4). The two women are portrayed as righteous.
​

Lots of scatological phrases.

scatology n.
1 a a morbid interest in excrement. b a preoccupation with obscene literature, esp. that concerned with the excretory functions. c such literature.
2 the study of fossilized dung.
3 the study of excrement for esp. diagnosis.
scatological adj.
[Greek skor skatos ‘dung' + -logy]
​

Examples:

"that pisseth against the wall" (I Samuel 25:22, I Kings 14:10)
"that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you" (II Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12)
"And thou shalt eat it [as] barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight" (Ez 4:12).
"Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith" (Ez 4:15).
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces..."(Malachi 2:3).
"and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ.."(Philipp 3:8).
​

Read the bible lately? why are the bible thumping christians on this forum such twits?


all the best

 

[ccc]

What kind of moral example and mercy does your Lord Jesus set when he ordered the killing of young girls , women and children in the bible and how can that be justified


Ezekiel 9:5-7

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open

And then talk filth and dirt about them like this

Ezekiel chapter 23: 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses

again those are the words which the people from those times were able to understand, also when god allows people to make something bad o each other he actually limits a preexistent evil, in he same way we understand the reason for which death was given to man.
the last quotations are again incomplete:
1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"

9 He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' 10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."
you can see what is the reason for they are let o be klled:Those peope from Israel left God, and his is the real death.this death we experience on earth s only separation of soul and body.

 

[ccc]

I know what secular means, I have pointed out that neither under secular nor Judaic or even christian laws was what you personally consider 'immoral' in fact immoral.
As for false prophets why not start with the charlatan saul? or even dissect your bible a little bit for its lewdness and frank scatology before making the leap forward ey?

and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel" (II Sam 16:22). Afterwards, the poor concubines (there were ten of them!) got imprisoned for life (II Sam 20:3).
"and after that thou shalt go in unto her" (Deut 21:13). There are many other places where the graphical phrase "go in" is used.
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off..." (Deut 23:1).
"and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets" (Deut 25:11).
"let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love" (Proverbs 5:19).
"My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him" (Song of Solomon 5:4).
"and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun" (II Sam 12:11).
"he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts" (Song of Sol. 1:13).
"And they committed *****doms in Egypt; ...there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity" (Ez 23:3).
"to every man a damsel or two" (Judges 5:30)
"and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake" (Matthew 19:12).
​

Many sexual crimes in the Bible go unpunished:

Lot had sex with his two daughters. One might even conclude that he had God's help in this, as he was both very old and very drunk at the time. There was no punishment for any of them. On the contrary, both daughters were rewarded with sons who founded nations (Gen 19:33-38). Earlier (Gen 19:8), Lot had offered his daughters to be used by a mob. And Peter said that Lot was a "righteous man" (2Peter 2:8).
A married man who has mistresses is not punished for adultery. Examples: Abraham (I Chron 1:32), Saul (II Sam 3:7), Gideon (Judges 8:31), Reheboam (II Chron 11:21), David (II Sam 5:13,20). But a woman who has sex outside of marriage is severely punished.
"Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard of it" (Gen 35:22). No mention of any punishment.
​

Punishment for sexual crimes was sometimes meted to innocent people, or even to the victim:

When a man has sex with a slave girl (yes, slavery is OK), he isn't to be heavily punished, but the girl is (Leviticus 19:20).
The penalty for sex with an animal is to be death not only for the man or woman, but for the poor beast as well (Leviticus 20:15,16).
A woman who doesn't scream when she gets raped is to be stoned. (Deuteronomy 22:24).
******* children are to be punished, and their descendants, too. (Deuteronomy 23:2, Isaiah 14:21).
King David had the hots for Bathsheba. So he had sex with her and then sent her husband off to die in battle. David's punishment, decreed by God, was that all his wives be publicly raped, and his newborn child would die! (II Samuel 11:2 - 12:14) (The men who did the raping presumably were not punished, since they were following God's orders.)
There are many cases where a married man has mistresses and isn't punished for adultery: Abraham (I Chron 1:32), Reheboam (II Chron 11:21), Saul (II Sam 3:7), Gideon (Judges 8:31), David (II Samuel 5:13,20).
God actually decrees fornication in Deut 28:30, where the punishment for a man's misdeed is that his fiance has sex with another man.
Judah had sex with his daughter-in-law, who was pretending to be a *****. No punishment for either of them. (Genesis 38:13-26)
A man may forcibly take a woman from enemy captives and make her his wife, after trying her out. (Deut 21:11-13)
A man is supposed to have sex with his dead brother's widow. If he refuses, he gets publicly humiliated (Deut 25:5-9). Apparently it doesn't matter whether he is already married.
When David was old and infirm, he was brought a young maiden so that he would "get heat" (I Kings 1:1-2). It didn't work.
Ruth, a young widow, acts the harlot to nab a rich husband, as her mother-in-law Naomi instructs her to do (Ruth 3:3-4). The two women are portrayed as righteous.
​

Lots of scatological phrases.

scatology n.
1 a a morbid interest in excrement. b a preoccupation with obscene literature, esp. that concerned with the excretory functions. c such literature.
2 the study of fossilized dung.
3 the study of excrement for esp. diagnosis.
scatological adj.
[Greek skor skatos ‘dung' + -logy]
​

Examples:

"that pisseth against the wall" (I Samuel 25:22, I Kings 14:10)
"that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you" (II Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12)
"And thou shalt eat it [as] barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight" (Ez 4:12).
"Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith" (Ez 4:15).
"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces..."(Malachi 2:3).
"and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ.."(Philipp 3:8).
​

Read the bible lately? why are the bible thumping christians on this forum such twits?


all the best

Again, the fact that evl things are presented in bible does not mean anyhing because they are presented as evil and Bible is the book in which is said he story of salvation from evil.

 

[جوري]

Again, the fact that evl things are presented in bible does not mean anyhing because they are presented as evil and Bible is the book in which is said he story of salvation from evil.

That is all there is when other folks open your bible, and sad especially when committed by alleged holy people.. prophets sent to warn against sins of the flesh for instance shouldn't be hypocrites by getting drunk and sleeping with their daughters.. daughters shouldn't be betrothed without their wish and dying prophets shouldn't be taking concubines!

these are the facts of the matter and that is how your religion and culture are being viewed. scatology and hate filled manifestos.. and I suggest before pointing your finger out of perceived flaws in other religion, that you convene yet again and vote to see what you should re-write in your bible and modernize so the earth isn't 6000 years old and gods don't become dying men and the world doesn't revolve around the earth and women aren't soulless creatures akin to animals.

all the best!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open

And do you think the women who blew themselves up today in the Moscow subways, only to defend Islam of course not to actually cause terror, were not ripped open or that they were careful to avoid dashing little ones to pieces?

 

[جوري]

And do you think the women who blew themselves up today in the Moscow subways, only to defend Islam of course not to actually cause terror, were not ripped open or that they were careful to avoid dashing little ones to pieces?

How do you draw similarities against being ripped apart by the will of this sweet self-immolating man/god and folks acting on their own volition? People blowing themselves in a subway aren't the 'book to live by'

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

People blowing themselves in a subway aren't the 'book to live by'

all the best

Good. I'm glad to hear that. The problem is that those who did it thought that they were carrying out the will of Allah. I am convinced that many who have claim to be God's people have mistaken portrayed his will, both in the OT and in the present day.

 

[جوري]

Good. I'm glad to hear that. The problem is that those who did it thought that they were carrying out the will of Allah. I am convinced that many who have claim to be God's people have mistaken portrayed his will, both in the OT and in the present day.

The 'will of Allah' to kill oneself on a subway isn't mentioned in the Quran, as we see it the will of 'jesus' to rip people apart in the bible!

all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

I often wonder if christians actually have read their own bible.
Either that they have not read it, or they don't really believe in their own holy book.
Or they secretly acknowledge that their books are filled with errors and contradictions so they have to keep making addendums and creating new definitions and new meanings of the bible according to the fashion of the day.

 

[جوري]

I often wonder if christians actually have read their own bible.
Either that they have not read it, or they don't really believe in their own holy book.
Or they secretly acknowledge that their books are filled with errors and contradictions so they have to keep making addendums and creating new definitions and new meanings of the bible according to the fashion of the day.

Pride and envy are deadly sins they can't seem to let go of.

2:109 Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed. From selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplisheth His purpose: for Allah hath power over all things.

 

[aadil77]

And do you think the women who blew themselves up today in the Moscow subways, only to defend Islam of course not to actually cause terror, were not ripped open or that they were careful to avoid dashing little ones to pieces?

Pathetic attempt to try and justify it, this is clearly written in your own bible, whereas our Quran has no such verses and explicitly says never to kill non-combatants including women and children.

Can you provide me a verse that says the same in the bible or are you just going to say that you don't follow that particular part of the bible? Theres no way that verse has a meaning out of context.

Seems a bit strange you have to compare the acts of criminals to supposed inspired verses of god in a holy book.

 

[aadil77]

Again, the fact that evl things are presented in bible does not mean anyhing because they are presented as evil and Bible is the book in which is said he story of salvation from evil.

Whats that supposed to be mean, aren't those 'evil' verses from god?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I often wonder if christians actually have read their own bible.
Either that they have not read it, or they don't really believe in their own holy book.
Or they secretly acknowledge that their books are filled with errors and contradictions so they have to keep making addendums and creating new definitions and new meanings of the bible according to the fashion of the day.

Not always so secretly. Did I not just state that I think that some of what is expressed in these passages in the reports of the battles of the Jordan and the conquest of Canaan is more the hand of man than the hand of God in the writing?

Pathetic attempt to try and justify it, this is clearly written in your own bible, whereas our Quran has no such verses and explicitly says never to kill non-combatants including women and children.

Are you meaning to state here that you believe as categorically true and never to be abrogated or reinterpreted every single thing that is reported to have been said by Allah in the Qur'an? That there are no discrepencies between Islamic beliefs and practices and the Qur'an itself?

 

[aadil77]

Are you meaning to state here that you believe as categorically true and never to be abrogated or reinterpreted every single thing that is reported to have been said by Allah in the Qur'an? That there are no discrepencies between Islamic beliefs and practices and the Qur'an itself?

I don't get what you're saying, thats the longest question I've ever read, can cut it down so it makes some sense?

The second part of your question - No there are no discrepencies cause the 'beliefs and practices' come from the Quran, do they not?

And again you've tried to avoid explaining that verse, reading that verse makes me wonder how people can try to ban the Quran as a 'violent book' and not the bible. I can just imagine the US terrorist army has used that verse countless times to go and cause the massacres of muslims innocents they have in iraq and afghanistan.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Taking your comments in reverse order:

reading that verse makes me wonder how people can try to ban the Quran as a 'violent book' and not the bible. I can just imagine the US terrorist army has used that verse countless times to go and cause the massacres of muslims innocents they have in iraq and afghanistan.

I'm not aware of anyone trying to ban either book. But I suspect that the people who do, read the one they prefer with rose color glasses and the one they don't prefer with a magnifying lens. In other words, it doesn't have anything to do with the content of the books themselves, but the preconceptions of those reading them.

I've also never heard of the US army (which is no more, no less, terroristic than any other army) using any verse from a religious source as their operations manual. And as there is seperation of church and state in the US, and many in the Army have no faith at all, I highly doubt that the US army has turned to that verse or any other verse in the Bible for what they do. Beyond which, the passages speak to the Israelites entering Canaan, not the US army going any place, so even if they read it, it would not apply.

And again you've tried to avoid explaining that verse,

What's to explain? The verse says what it says. I consider the whole idea repugnant and unworthy of God. As I have previously expressed both in this and other threads, I do not consider the Bible to be the dicated word of God, but the product of non-verbal inspiration. As such it is the product of a divine-human synthesis, and anything that includes the human element is going to be imperfect. In cases like this verse, I believe it tends to show the hand of man more than the hand of God in its writing. If you are looking for a defense of the verse, you're going to have to search out someone with a view of the origin of scripture that is more directive than mine is. There are plenty of Christians who would differ from me on this, so it shouldn't be hard to find.

The second part of your question - No there are no discrepencies cause the 'beliefs and practices' come from the Quran, do they not?

Do they?

I know that some things are not mentioned in the Qur'an at all, but rather they come from the Hadith. Other things it seems to me are steeped in tradition and set interpretations of the Qur'an. How does one know that the particular tradition or set interpretation is the right one? The Hadith itself has multiple stories where followers of Islam where trying to enforce their understanding of the Islamic way of life, but had to be corrected by Muhammad (pbuh). If this was true in his time, why should one believe that people no longer do things as their interpretation of what it means to keep Islam that, were he here, the prophet would not still need to correct?

On another thread, I quoted a verse that talks about all those who disobey Allah and his messenger being sent to hell forever, but every Muslim I know believes that though they admit to sins (i.e. disobedience) if one sincerely repents and demonstrates that by living properly thereafter and does the deeds asked by Allah, that Allah who is merciful will except that repentence and those deeds and, though one might have to spend some time being purified in hell that it will not be forever, Allah will still ultimately grant one admission to Janah. Those Muslims who believe thusly (and I'm not saying that they are wrong to believe this), are in fact believing differently than what the Qur'an itself clearly says in the Qur'an (verse 72:23 -- “And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever.”)

I don't get what you're saying, thats the longest question I've ever read, can cut it down so it makes some sense?

You said that my response to the verse from Hosea was an attempt to justify it. It wasn't. I'm not trying to justify or defend that verse in Hosea. Calling it repugnant hardly sounds like an attempt to justify it. But it was an attempt to deflect your outrage over the verse by looking at practices that seem to be condoned similar outrages behaviors as acceptable to be practiced as an expression of Islam. I say this knowing that some Muslims do say that such behavior is not Islamic, yet so enough do so that these behaviors continue unabated and all I see is talk. I don't see anyone actually doing anything to stop it. In the end, complaints to Christians who follow Jesus' reinterpretation of many OT passages -- "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:43-44). -- because the OT seems to promote outrageous behavior by Jews 2000-3000 years ago, which Muslims are themselves participating in unadmonished today is the equivalent of the pot calling the kettle black.