I think it is important to ask a rhetorical question (this is for all of us, not just Muslim Woman). Have you sinned since you reverted/converted? Have you committed the same sin more than once and asked God's forgiveness for it since you reverted/converted? If the answer is yes, then don't be surprised with Israel's experience, rather be thankful for God's forgiveness.
How to ask Rabbi , Priest, Imam & others ?
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I think it is important to ask a rhetorical question (this is for all of us, not just Muslim Woman). Have you sinned since you reverted/converted? Have you committed the same sin more than once and asked God's forgiveness for it since you reverted/converted? If the answer is yes, then don't be surprised with Israel's experience, rather be thankful for God's forgiveness.
rav
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:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: ;D ;D :giggling: ;D :giggling:
Sigh.
You first assert that you cannot fathom how G-d could forgive someone for his sins. Then you make a claim and say it is truth because the Quran said it. The Quran says "O Jews" like it is refering to all people when G-d clearly says and the Jews clearly believe all Jews will not go to heaven.
All Israel has a share in the world to come. As it reads [Is. IX. 21]: "And thy people-they will all be righteous, for ever shall they possess the land, the sprout of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may glorify myself." The following have no share in the world to come: He who says that there is no allusion in the Torah concerning resurrection, and he who says that the Torah was not given by Heaven, and a follower of Epicurus R. Aqiba added, him who reads books of the Hizunim and him who mumbles over a wound, reciting the verse [Ex. xv. 26]: "I will put none of those diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I the L-rd am thy physician." Abba Shaul said: Also he who speaks out the Holy Name with its vocals.
(Sanhedrin 90a)
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rav
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Obviously you do not understand the analogy. I would love to point you towards Osama Bin ladens speech on how he "loves death", but it is against the forum rules.
Muslim Woman
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Salaam/peace;
I heard many more allegations against Christian missionaries….don’t know if these are true or rumour.
One is that NGO’s are funded by missionaries. In the school run by NGO’s , they tell Muslim kids to close eyes & ask chocolates from Allah. Then they say , look , did u get it ? Naturally , kids say ‘ no’ .
Then they again tell them to close eyes & this time put chocolates in front of them. Then they ask , now tell us who is more powerful , Allah or Jesus (p) ?
Another allegation is they appoint Muslim women , give them cycle or motor-cycle as office transport , tell them to wear Shirt & Pant (Normally Muslim women don’t wear this dress in a Muslim majority country) . Thus , they are trying to make women shameless .
In disaster time about 1 or 2 years back , I heard , in India , missionaries refused to give food when villagers did not want to convert etc , etc.
If these are false allegations, then I think , Church should try to clarify the matter by publishing Do’s & Dont’s of missionaries in the media ; so that non-Christians can get a clear idea. Also , they can know where to complain if missionaries lies or misuse the money .
-----I read that many Christians believe if anybody dies before confirmation ( ??? or baptism …. forgot the correct word :embarrass ) , then s/he will go to hell.
So, even if a baby dies , then because of the original sin as s/he was born in sin , will be thrown in to hell.
I heard many more allegations against Christian missionaries….don’t know if these are true or rumour.
One is that NGO’s are funded by missionaries. In the school run by NGO’s , they tell Muslim kids to close eyes & ask chocolates from Allah. Then they say , look , did u get it ? Naturally , kids say ‘ no’ .
Then they again tell them to close eyes & this time put chocolates in front of them. Then they ask , now tell us who is more powerful , Allah or Jesus (p) ?
Another allegation is they appoint Muslim women , give them cycle or motor-cycle as office transport , tell them to wear Shirt & Pant (Normally Muslim women don’t wear this dress in a Muslim majority country) . Thus , they are trying to make women shameless .
In disaster time about 1 or 2 years back , I heard , in India , missionaries refused to give food when villagers did not want to convert etc , etc.
If these are false allegations, then I think , Church should try to clarify the matter by publishing Do’s & Dont’s of missionaries in the media ; so that non-Christians can get a clear idea. Also , they can know where to complain if missionaries lies or misuse the money .
-----I read that many Christians believe if anybody dies before confirmation ( ??? or baptism …. forgot the correct word :embarrass ) , then s/he will go to hell.
So, even if a baby dies , then because of the original sin as s/he was born in sin , will be thrown in to hell.
Muslim Woman
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Salaam/peace;
[email protected]: Jews claim that they are God’s chosen people.
1. How does one convince Jews that God does not indulge in favoritism?
Muslim Woman :.....regarding holy Quran & holy Taurat ( Torah ) , It is true that Jews were blessed in the past .................
Attn: non-Muslims.
Here is commentary of related Quranic verses on Jews . ( I m not writing this post to hurt anyone's feelings....just to make u
understand how Quran described about Jews in the past . )
Before complaining that Quran is harsh on Jews , pl. read Jewish holy Book & see what is there about Jews past sins.
U may visit this link
similarities between Muslims and Jewish holy books
In NT , Jesus (p) also scolded Jews. So , don’t think that only Quran criticised Jews.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=62&tid=53775
Admonishing the Jews and challenging Them to wish for Death
Allah the Exalted admonishes the Jews who were entrusted with the Tawrah and were ordered to abide by it. However, they did not abide by it, and this is why Allah resembled them to the donkey that carries volumes of books.
Surely, when the donkey carries books, it will not understand what these books contain because it is only carrying these books using its strength.
This is the example of those who were entrusted with the Tawrah; they read its letter but did not understand its meanings nor abided by them. Rather, they even corrupted and changed the Tawrah.
Therefore, they are worse than the donkey, because the donkey cannot understand. They, on the other hand, could have understood using their minds, but their minds were of no benefit.
This is why Allah the Exalted said in another Ayah,
[أُوْلَـئِكَ كَالأَنْعَـمِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَـفِلُونَ]
(They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless.) (7:179), and said,
[بِئْسَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ لاَ يَهْدِى الْقَوْمَ الظَّـلِمِينَ]
(How bad is the example of people who deny the Ayat of Allah. And Allah does not guide the people who are wrongdoers.) Allah the Exalted said,
Say: "O you Jews! If you pretend that you are friends of Allah, to the exclusion of other people, then long for death if you are truthful.'') meaning,
`if you claim that you are on the correct guidance and that Muhammad (p) and his Companions are being led astray, then invoke Allah to bring death to the misguided group among the two, if you are truthful in your claim.'
Allah said, (But they will never long for it, because of what their hands have sent before them!)
meaning because of the disbelief, injustice and sins that they commit, (And Allah knows well the wrongdoers.)
We mentioned this challenge to the Jews before in Surat Al-Baqarah, where Allah said,
(Say: "If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is indeed for you specially and not for others, of mankind, then long for death if you are truthful.''
But they will never long for it because of what their hands have sent forth before them. And Allah is Aware of the wrongdoers. And verily, you will find them the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who ascribe partners to Allah.
One of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from punishment.
And Allah is Seer of what they do.) (2:94-96)
We explained these meanings there, stating that the challenge was for the Jews to invoke Allah to destroy the misguided group, either they or their enemies…….
[email protected]: Jews claim that they are God’s chosen people.
1. How does one convince Jews that God does not indulge in favoritism?
Muslim Woman :.....regarding holy Quran & holy Taurat ( Torah ) , It is true that Jews were blessed in the past .................
Attn: non-Muslims.
Here is commentary of related Quranic verses on Jews . ( I m not writing this post to hurt anyone's feelings....just to make u
understand how Quran described about Jews in the past . )
Before complaining that Quran is harsh on Jews , pl. read Jewish holy Book & see what is there about Jews past sins.
U may visit this link
similarities between Muslims and Jewish holy books
In NT , Jesus (p) also scolded Jews. So , don’t think that only Quran criticised Jews.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=62&tid=53775
Admonishing the Jews and challenging Them to wish for Death
Allah the Exalted admonishes the Jews who were entrusted with the Tawrah and were ordered to abide by it. However, they did not abide by it, and this is why Allah resembled them to the donkey that carries volumes of books.
Surely, when the donkey carries books, it will not understand what these books contain because it is only carrying these books using its strength.
This is the example of those who were entrusted with the Tawrah; they read its letter but did not understand its meanings nor abided by them. Rather, they even corrupted and changed the Tawrah.
Therefore, they are worse than the donkey, because the donkey cannot understand. They, on the other hand, could have understood using their minds, but their minds were of no benefit.
This is why Allah the Exalted said in another Ayah,
[أُوْلَـئِكَ كَالأَنْعَـمِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْغَـفِلُونَ]
(They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless.) (7:179), and said,
[بِئْسَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَايَـتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ لاَ يَهْدِى الْقَوْمَ الظَّـلِمِينَ]
(How bad is the example of people who deny the Ayat of Allah. And Allah does not guide the people who are wrongdoers.) Allah the Exalted said,
Say: "O you Jews! If you pretend that you are friends of Allah, to the exclusion of other people, then long for death if you are truthful.'') meaning,
`if you claim that you are on the correct guidance and that Muhammad (p) and his Companions are being led astray, then invoke Allah to bring death to the misguided group among the two, if you are truthful in your claim.'
Allah said, (But they will never long for it, because of what their hands have sent before them!)
meaning because of the disbelief, injustice and sins that they commit, (And Allah knows well the wrongdoers.)
We mentioned this challenge to the Jews before in Surat Al-Baqarah, where Allah said,
(Say: "If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is indeed for you specially and not for others, of mankind, then long for death if you are truthful.''
But they will never long for it because of what their hands have sent forth before them. And Allah is Aware of the wrongdoers. And verily, you will find them the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who ascribe partners to Allah.
One of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from punishment.
And Allah is Seer of what they do.) (2:94-96)
We explained these meanings there, stating that the challenge was for the Jews to invoke Allah to destroy the misguided group, either they or their enemies…….
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i think maybe some of the problem is that not all missionaries are Catholic... most Catholic missions are decades or centuries old, they are established schools and hospitals in their communities or established charities. Catholic aid agencies usually handle things like natural disasters or wars, this is not the same as missionary activity since the purpose is not spreading the gospel but instead fulfilling the beatitudes (commandments given by Jesus at the sermon on the mount). they are just charities... rarely do people who benefit from them even find out that it is a Catholic organization, the organizations do not hire Catholics exclusively (but Catholics are greatly encouraged to participate), and there is no accompanying mission theological group.
the thing that really ties them to the Church is that the funding comes from the Church and they are sometimes founded or supported by a particular religious order...
so i am not even sure why a Catholic mission would even be operating in an indian disaster zone, missions are set up to become a long term integrated part of the community... the quick response "bandaids" are the charities but they are focused only on helping the people in that area... very often proselytizing is forbidden since the people running the Charities do not have any background, the governments allowing them in do not allow it, and the Church likes to have complete control over mission activities...
also, the things you are talking about are completely against Church doctrine... not just ad gentes... performing false magic tricks like making chocolate disappear is enticement which breaks ad gentes, and Catholics are not allowed to (seriously) claim to have magical powers (i know it sounds ridiculous to have to say such a thing)... magic is forbidden in the bible and by the Church.
skirts and pants have nothing to do with Catholicism... i am not sure why anybody would do something like that... the Church only says that we must dress modestly, especially on Sundays, and there is a dress code for meeting bishops or the Pope (black) but that is all... things like skirts and pants are cultural to the west but missionaries are commanded and taught to respect and become a part of the culture they are working in.
the rules regulating missionary activity are usually posted with the mission, the office of the legate in charge of international missionary activity, most catholic charities, any local Church and have been published numerous times since Vatican II (which was big international news)... i have worked in many places abroad and i do not think i have ever experienced or heard of the events you are describing... are you sure these are Catholic missions? it seem so shocking, the things they are doing are heretical and the things they are saying are even more heretical i could not even imagine what a horrible person you would have to be to say Christ died so you wont ever be punished for your sins... it is total heresy...
i am suspicious though, it sounds charismatic evangelical (who i do not trust), i have experienced in latin america pentacostals who are attempting to convert Latinos to what they are. they entice starving people with food and promises, and then invite them to their services where they perform magic tricks like public exorcisms and faith healing... which confuse many people who are already ignorant... i have never actually seen them use health care or food deprivation but from what i have seen it would not surprise me.
i have had a very negative opinion of protestants since i saw these things... i feel their charisma is fake, that they ignore christian responsibilities, worship wealth, and make a mockery of serious rites and rituals (like exorcism, which needs cardinal level approval and a very long inquiry before it is even performed, which is a clandestine secret ritual anyway... not a show, and takes much prayer and devotion).
only recently in talking to people like glo and my husband who are both different kinds of protestants has my opinion changed a little... i do not think they are all the same, but there is a very very wicked movement of people that is doing these, pentecostals especially i could never trust or take seriously...
but anyway are you able to find out if this is a Catholic mission doing these things (and if they are indeed not just rumor) i must report them to my bishop immediately so that the Church can open an investigation... i think maybe an email to the CDF (Holy Inquisition) about the things these people are teaching non Catholics would be required too... they might want to open an investigation... these things you are saying are heresy and cannot be taught by representatives of the Church, they must be stopped...
baptism is when the original sin is washed away and you are given to God... it is like a mark that means you belong to God. confirmation is what you do when you come of age in the Church and go through a ceremony in which you as an adult elect to remain a member of the Church.
as for Children who die before they can have the opportunity to be baptised the Church teaches this:
we do not believe God creates life simply for it to be condemned to Hell, regardless of our Original sin and our personal sins throughout our lifetimes, God has always provided an alternative to sin for us to choose... without choices free will means nothing...
for those who for one circumstance or another never get to make this kind of choice we believe God will show them mercy. this also holds true for people who for no fault of their own have never heard the gospels, do not know about God or have never heard of Jesus... that is called invincible ignorance.
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Muslim Woman
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Salaam/peace;
&&
Ok , who “ was in a rage of jealousy of the Jews when writing the following verses”?
Listen to this Chapter in Hebrew
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm
Nehemiah Chapter 9
… But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments……
Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations; …………………..
and slew Thy prophets
&&
Ok , who “ was in a rage of jealousy of the Jews when writing the following verses”?
Listen to this Chapter in Hebrew
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm
Nehemiah Chapter 9
… But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments……
Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations; …………………..
and slew Thy prophets
Muslim Woman
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Salaam/peace;
----huh very funny
Do u know Catholic church appointed a Frenchman Dr. Maurice Buccaille a catholic to find faults with Quran & what was the result ?
If u don't know , visit this link.
Story Of Qur'anic Haman. A Curious Pope And His Confessor!
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...quranic-haman-curious-pope-his-confessor.html
PS. sorry sis Jayda , i have no intention to hurt ur
feelings
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rav
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What does that have to do with anything? That is a recollection of what occured. A proof the Tanakh is uncorrupted! The Jews who "corrupted" as you so naivly say, would have erased that part wouldn't they have? I mean, no empire told of its loses in wars, or failures. Yet Israel tells its own.
How about readin on! In chapter 10:
And yet for all this we make a sure covenant, and subscribe it;
(10:1)
Since your into Tanakh text how about reading these:
Jeremiah 3:12 Return, O backsliding Israel, says the L-rd. I will not let My anger rest upon you, for I am pious, says the L-rd; I will not bear a grudge forever.
Jeremiah 31:2 From long ago, the L-rd appeared to me; With everlasting love have I loved you; therefore have I drawn you to Me with loving-kindness. 3. Yet again will I rebuild you, then you shall be built, O virgin of Israel; yet again shall you be adorned with your tabrets, and you shall go out with the dances of those who make merry.
Jeremiah 31:9. Hear the word of the L-rd, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock.
Jeremiah 32:34. So said the L-rd, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the L-rd of Hosts is His name. 35. If these laws depart from before Me, says the L-rd, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. 36. So said the L-rd: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the L-rd.
The last one is really good -- because Jeremiah clearly says that "if the laws of the moon and stars cease" He will reject Israel.
Have the moon and stars have ceased.
Have the heavens have been measured.
Have the foundations of earth have been fathomed.
If not then G-d has not rejected Israel.
______
Leviticus 26:44
Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the L-RD their G-d.
1 Samuel 12:22
For the sake of his great name the L-RD will not reject his people, because the L-RD was pleased to make you his own.
Psalm 94:14
For the L-RD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance.
Isaiah 41:8
8 "But you, O Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,
9 I took you from the ends of the earth,
from its farthest corners I called you.
I said, 'You are my servant';
I have chosen you and have not rejected you.
Zechariah 10:6
6 "I will strengthen the house of Judah
and save the house of Joseph.
I will restore them
because I have compassion on them.
They will be as though
I had not rejected them,
for I am the L-RD their G-d
and I will answer them.
Deuteronomy 4:31 for the L-RD thy G-d is a merciful G-d; He will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He swore unto them.
Oh wait, only like to quote some parts of the Tanakh? The Talmud tells us about your nature:
And even if he says that the whole Torah is by Heaven except such and such an explanation, such an a fortiori conclusion, such an analogy of expression, they are considered as despising the word of the L-rd.
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Muslim Woman
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Salaam/peace;
Muslims all over the world are fasting today ( not compulsory ) & offering special prayer; because we believe on this day God forgave Adam (P) , Jesus (p) was saved from death & raised up , Moses (p) crossed the sea , Abraham (p) was saved from fire etc ,etc.
Karbala tragedy ( death of grandson of Prophet Muhammed pbuh ) is so tragic that other stories are ignored sometimes.
Anyway ,Jews & Christians participants , did u know about that ?
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hola Muslim Woman,
it occurred to me that in talking about the crusades i neglected to show in what capacity the crusaders disobeyed the Church (other than by not doing the mission they were given, not protecting the eastern empire, establishing their own kingdom of Jerusalem rather than giving it to the pope and emperor, and not communicating with Rome that the official legate chosen by the Pope had died of disease)
specifically with regards to the worst things the crusaders did they violated the Church's doctrines and commandments. our war doctrine is called "Just War doctrine" and like all doctrine we must obey. it was first articulated by St. Augustine in the fourth century and is found in modern catechisms in section 2302 onward... the modern Just War doctrine has been adapted to include specific 20th century words like "genocide" or modern weapons like nuclear weapons or biological weapons.
the doctrine that Crusaders would have had to follow was the Augustinian doctrine that St. Aquinas commented on in summa theologica at the specified link i provided...
the four essential elements for a just war are:
the Holy Father Urban II, the blessed, gave the authority to begin war in the Holy Land, because he was the lawful authority (item 2 in augustines doctrine), and he established the reasons as protecting the pilgrims, restoring the Churches and helping the eastern Christians (items 1, 2) and he established a legate (a messenger from the Pope, representing him abroad) to command the crusader forces. the legate a latere (which is the highest kind of messenger, a cardinal), was Adhemar of Le Puy, who was bishop of Puy en Velay and general of all crusader forces. he was ordered to begin the Crusades on the feast of the Assumption of Mary and would have been responsible for all military decisions and making sure everything was in line with Catholic doctrine, before he could begin a lunatic named Peter the Hermit took 100,000 peasants women and children on the Crusade six months before it was meant to be taken... almost all died of starvation, they never reached Jerusalem and those that were not killed, enslaved or forced to convert were sent back to Constantinople where they were not recieved.
when the crusades began it was still lead by Bishop Adhemar, who because of his title and authority was both spiritual and military leader of the Crusade. he was the leader during the time that the crusaders took back Antioch, the muslim governor who was aware they were coming, was a terrible man who imprisoned the Patriarch (Pope) of Antioch (one of the five most important men in Christianity) and exiled all of the Greeks and Armenian Christians...
there was a very large seige laid against antioch for a long time and the crusaders almost starved, during that time the Fatimids came (antioch was under the Turks) and were treated very well given gifts and not abused, like the crusaders did later in the crusades after adhemar died. nothing was worked out but the fatimids left in peace.
they finally took the city in a very large battle, the turkish garrison was killed by the crusaders and the citizens because the turks were so cruel, the crusaders entered the city and muslim citizens were spared, and their property left alone. acting for the Pope bishop Adhemar reinstated the Patriarch and they awaited a retaliatory strike from the larger army of muslim turks coming back to take the city.
they attacked, and lost and the crusaders kept Antioch but disease began and Adhemar died as a consequence... this is very important because the crusaders did not inform the Pope immediately that his legate had died, instead they kept control of the crusader armies and made Peter the Hermit (who was still alive from his failed crusade) their new leader... as i said before Peter was insane, he had visions of gradure and promised things he could not give, he even claimed that the crusade was his idea...
under his spritual guidance (a mere friar) and the military guidance of the warlords muslims immediately began to be killed by the crusaders, and they openly stole food from them to begin their assault on Jerusalem... by the time they reached Jerusalem they had no papal leadership to make sure they followed the doctrine of war and they attacked and massacred every muslim christian and jew living in the city, committed many atrocities and then elected for themselves a new Patriarch of Jerusalem (Arnulf) who would be their puppet bishop supporting their secular kingdom of Jerusalem rather than the planned theocracy.
when the Pope learned of these things he was incensed and sent a Papal appointed Patriarch Dagobert of Pisa, who came to instill a theocracy... upon coming to Jerusalem he quickly learned the knights were loyal to their king and no longer the Pope so he was mistreated and ignored, he was able to work out a deal with the king that they would turn the Holy Land back to the Pope after they conquered Egypt (where they could have their kingdom, except alexandria), but that never happened, Dagobert refused to crown a new king because the old died, and went back to Rome to report the mutiny but in his absense the crusaders established a new Patriarch who would be their puppet... the Pope and Patriarch Dagobert were furious and he was sent back, when he returned he reestablished his claim to his office but that was all... from then on out the Papal appointed Patriarchs and legates were ignored by the Crusaders, and the Crusaders did as they pleased...
the Just war doctrine and any other doctrine that did not please these warlords were ignored, and the messages from Rome were ignored... when the Pope called for more crusades to control the previous crusaders and try to reestablish byzantine control the situation became worse, the crusaders sacked Constantinople, destroyed the Holy Land and began banking in interest (which was illegal). it became so bad the Popes ended the crusades, disbanded the Templars and put the Hospitallers directly under vatican control, the French Knights were all sent back to France and commanded to remain there.
partly because of the french knights and crusaders disloyalty St. Thomas Aquinas revised St. Augustines just war doctrine to the following
adding that it must be a last resort and have a reasonable chance of success, so that in the future should a sacrum belli be called for there would not be such problems.
Dios te bendiga
it occurred to me that in talking about the crusades i neglected to show in what capacity the crusaders disobeyed the Church (other than by not doing the mission they were given, not protecting the eastern empire, establishing their own kingdom of Jerusalem rather than giving it to the pope and emperor, and not communicating with Rome that the official legate chosen by the Pope had died of disease)
specifically with regards to the worst things the crusaders did they violated the Church's doctrines and commandments. our war doctrine is called "Just War doctrine" and like all doctrine we must obey. it was first articulated by St. Augustine in the fourth century and is found in modern catechisms in section 2302 onward... the modern Just War doctrine has been adapted to include specific 20th century words like "genocide" or modern weapons like nuclear weapons or biological weapons.
the doctrine that Crusaders would have had to follow was the Augustinian doctrine that St. Aquinas commented on in summa theologica at the specified link i provided...
the four essential elements for a just war are:
the Holy Father Urban II, the blessed, gave the authority to begin war in the Holy Land, because he was the lawful authority (item 2 in augustines doctrine), and he established the reasons as protecting the pilgrims, restoring the Churches and helping the eastern Christians (items 1, 2) and he established a legate (a messenger from the Pope, representing him abroad) to command the crusader forces. the legate a latere (which is the highest kind of messenger, a cardinal), was Adhemar of Le Puy, who was bishop of Puy en Velay and general of all crusader forces. he was ordered to begin the Crusades on the feast of the Assumption of Mary and would have been responsible for all military decisions and making sure everything was in line with Catholic doctrine, before he could begin a lunatic named Peter the Hermit took 100,000 peasants women and children on the Crusade six months before it was meant to be taken... almost all died of starvation, they never reached Jerusalem and those that were not killed, enslaved or forced to convert were sent back to Constantinople where they were not recieved.
when the crusades began it was still lead by Bishop Adhemar, who because of his title and authority was both spiritual and military leader of the Crusade. he was the leader during the time that the crusaders took back Antioch, the muslim governor who was aware they were coming, was a terrible man who imprisoned the Patriarch (Pope) of Antioch (one of the five most important men in Christianity) and exiled all of the Greeks and Armenian Christians...
there was a very large seige laid against antioch for a long time and the crusaders almost starved, during that time the Fatimids came (antioch was under the Turks) and were treated very well given gifts and not abused, like the crusaders did later in the crusades after adhemar died. nothing was worked out but the fatimids left in peace.
they finally took the city in a very large battle, the turkish garrison was killed by the crusaders and the citizens because the turks were so cruel, the crusaders entered the city and muslim citizens were spared, and their property left alone. acting for the Pope bishop Adhemar reinstated the Patriarch and they awaited a retaliatory strike from the larger army of muslim turks coming back to take the city.
they attacked, and lost and the crusaders kept Antioch but disease began and Adhemar died as a consequence... this is very important because the crusaders did not inform the Pope immediately that his legate had died, instead they kept control of the crusader armies and made Peter the Hermit (who was still alive from his failed crusade) their new leader... as i said before Peter was insane, he had visions of gradure and promised things he could not give, he even claimed that the crusade was his idea...
under his spritual guidance (a mere friar) and the military guidance of the warlords muslims immediately began to be killed by the crusaders, and they openly stole food from them to begin their assault on Jerusalem... by the time they reached Jerusalem they had no papal leadership to make sure they followed the doctrine of war and they attacked and massacred every muslim christian and jew living in the city, committed many atrocities and then elected for themselves a new Patriarch of Jerusalem (Arnulf) who would be their puppet bishop supporting their secular kingdom of Jerusalem rather than the planned theocracy.
when the Pope learned of these things he was incensed and sent a Papal appointed Patriarch Dagobert of Pisa, who came to instill a theocracy... upon coming to Jerusalem he quickly learned the knights were loyal to their king and no longer the Pope so he was mistreated and ignored, he was able to work out a deal with the king that they would turn the Holy Land back to the Pope after they conquered Egypt (where they could have their kingdom, except alexandria), but that never happened, Dagobert refused to crown a new king because the old died, and went back to Rome to report the mutiny but in his absense the crusaders established a new Patriarch who would be their puppet... the Pope and Patriarch Dagobert were furious and he was sent back, when he returned he reestablished his claim to his office but that was all... from then on out the Papal appointed Patriarchs and legates were ignored by the Crusaders, and the Crusaders did as they pleased...
the Just war doctrine and any other doctrine that did not please these warlords were ignored, and the messages from Rome were ignored... when the Pope called for more crusades to control the previous crusaders and try to reestablish byzantine control the situation became worse, the crusaders sacked Constantinople, destroyed the Holy Land and began banking in interest (which was illegal). it became so bad the Popes ended the crusades, disbanded the Templars and put the Hospitallers directly under vatican control, the French Knights were all sent back to France and commanded to remain there.
partly because of the french knights and crusaders disloyalty St. Thomas Aquinas revised St. Augustines just war doctrine to the following
adding that it must be a last resort and have a reasonable chance of success, so that in the future should a sacrum belli be called for there would not be such problems.
Dios te bendiga
hola Muslim Woman,
gracias, this is very interesting... but if i may ask a question what was Adam forgiven for? i thought muslims believe he was a prophet and prophets were sinless...
Dios te bendiga
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When Adam and Eve(pbut) disobeyed G-d. They both repented and G-d forgave them. I'm guessing thats the only reason that existed.
gracias Tayyaba,
so does this mean prophets in islam can commit sins (but they ask for forgiveness and repent)? or was this only Adam and Eve?
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^^ Lol, I don't know really. I won't attempt to answer otherwise I might give out the wrong info...
Maybe someone else can answer for you
Peace
Maybe someone else can answer for you
Peace
^^ Lol, I don't know really. I won't attempt to answer otherwise I might give out the wrong info...
Maybe someone else can answer for you
Peace
i understand, muchos gracias
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^^de nada...
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