How to find a spouse: tips, realties and dangers

[Muhammad]

:wasalamex respected sister,

(mildly) My point is, that in my cultural context, it is necessary. I support the idea that men and women shouldn't socialize outside of what is needed to function after they are married. But if they are looking to get married, they need to go out and socialize. What other alternative is there? I don't know any better way to do it. Trust me, I have tried to look for other solutions; but I have not found a better one than this. If you have some ideas, please share them with us.

I think it is dangerous to encourage Muslim brothers and sisters to go out and 'socialise', and say that it is necessary. It is possible to find out about others in ways that do not require us to break the rules of gender interaction. You mentioned a number of examples in your first post such as drawing on the help of family members, friends, elders, colleagues and others can be included in this such as Imams and appropriate people that choose to provide this service. Drawing on the help of others doesn't mean we blindly accept their choice - rather one can learn more about the recommended people once he/she decides to take it to the next stage. This is different to allowing a blanket freedom to socialise with whomsoever one wishes, regardless of whether a person is being considered for marriage or not, and regardless of the boundaries that need to be in place.

The example of our mother Khadeejah :ra: comes to mind, who came to know of the Prophet's :saws: honesty and trustworthiness, and came to know of his character, despite not engaging directly in trade herself. She later sent her friend with a proposal. We learn from her story many things, including how to maintain our morals and virtues when dealing with the opposite gender.


We can note the following Q&A from Islamweb:

Question


I live in USA. Part of the activity of our Masjid is to organize events where Muslim can socialize and get to know each other. One of the tasks we tried to accomplish is to facilitate marriage for singles. So we decided to gather the singles (men and women) to give them a chance to know each other. The way we organize this is we seat few brothers on one side of the table and we seat sisters on the other side of the table in a present of table observer to facilitate the discussion. After 10 minutes the brother moves to another table so they can know other sisters for marriage purpose. Our intention is to make marriage easy for people. Is this Halaal? Given the fact that 1- No Mahram is present and 2- Some sisters are not wearing Hijaab.



Answer


All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger. We ask Allaah to exalt his mention as well as that of his family and all his companions.

There are many ways to look for a wife in Islam. For instance one can make inquiries through his female relatives or by asking male friends to query their female relatives on his behalf. If he learns of one or more women, he has to make Istikhaarah (to pray two optional Raka'h) seeking guidance in making a decision or choosing the proper course of action. He should also seek the advice of those who know each one of these women. If he feels in his heart that he is attracted to marry any of them, there is no harm in his looking at her with the presence of one of her Mahaarim (non-marriageable relatives) or at a gathering so that he would not be in seclusion with her. The Prophet

said: ''If one of you proposes to a woman, there is no prohibition in his looking at (some parts) of her (body) if he is looking at her for the purpose of marrying her.” [Ahmad] This is what our righteous predecessors

were upon.
The method that was mentioned in the question is not permissible as it includes some religious prohibitions. For instance, dissolute people could take this as a means to look at women not for the purpose of getting married to them, but rather just to look at them and talk to them. This could also be a cause for suspicions among Muslims. In addition, a person who wants to propose marriage to a woman is only allowed to look at the woman he wants to marry. In the situation mentioned, he is looking at several women to whom he will not marry. So one has to be cautious about this. Yet, the best guidance remains that of the Prophet

and his companions

.
Finally, it should be noted that a woman is like a man, she is permitted to ask for marriage and express her will about it. So, it is permissible for her to propose herself to men to marry her as one woman proposed herself to the Prophet

in which case, she has to observe Hijaab and good moral conduct and this should be in a manner that does not lead to affliction or suspicion.
And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=88579​

And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[Insaanah]

Assalaamu alaikum Insaanah,

(mildly) My point is, that in my cultural context, it is necessary. I support the idea that men and women shouldn't socialize outside of what is needed to function after they are married. But if they are looking to get married, they need to go out and socialize. What other alternative is there? I don't know any better way to do it. Trust me, I have tried to look for other solutions; but I have not found a better one than this. If you have some ideas, please share them with us.

JazakAllah khairan my sister.

Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh dear sister,

The fact that a spouse cannot be found by other normal routes, doesn't necessitate mixing. While marriage is highly recommended, we're not allowed to use disallowed means to get to that. If one cannot be found by permissible means, then one should remain patient, make dua, trust in Allah, and continue with the normal efforts people make.

As an analogy, hajj is fard on one who has the means. Yet if somebody takes an interest based loan to be able to go on hajj, because they otherwise won't be able to go, is that right? No.

Similarly, we can't recommend, people use means not allowed in Islam, for the purpose of achieving another objective.

If marriage doesn't happen, and there are some for whom it doesn't, then they will be rewarded for their patience on that. Allah hasn't told us that we must use any means at all by which to get married. Even of those who don't have the finances, He says: "And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah enriches them of His Bounty..." (24:33, part).

If a Muslim woman doesn't have the means, e.g. somebody to look for her, no family, no imam as wali if a new Muslim, or normal routes can't be tried or aren't working, then patience is the key, along with hope, du'aa, trust, and continuing whatever permissible efforts there are, if any. Each of us has trials, and perhaps that is the trial for some, which Allah tests us by to see if it will bring us closer to Him, or take us down routes that He does not like, while we in our hearts think that we are doing it for good.

For info, I live in Western society and am fully acquainted with the situation/problem you describe, but wouldn't recommend that Muslim sisters mix with/get to know Muslim men to try to see if it might produce some results.

And Allah knows best.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Assalaamu alaikum Mohammad and Ardianto,


(smile) Thank you so much for your input. Yes, indeed, I most strongly suggest that people draw on whatever social supports they have in looking for a spouse. This is the best way to go. (sigh) The problem is... there may well not be many social supports.


Mohammad, you cited the example of Khadijah (RAA). You could cite many other examples of the Companions, too. But the cultural context there and then is so radically different from what my society is experiencing. The Companions lived in a small society, where families were close and people knew each other very well. (pensively) The men also seemed to be more interested having in wives and families, then, too. In my society, there are many, many immigrants influxing into a decaying Christian environment that has been severely damaged by a homogenizing industrial-corporate force (Abdul-Hakim Murad calls it the monoculture). These immigrants have few or no family connections, come from a wide variety of different places and cultures, and tend to move around a lot. And people in general don't seem to be so keen on the responsibilities and compromises that spouses and children bring.


I myself am an immigrant. When I arrived in Canada (about 34 years ago), there were 24 million people living here. Now there are about 35 million. Given that the local people had very few children in this time, the proportion of new immigrants is even higher than you might imagine.


Let me paint you the picture a little: I have a good friend from Egypt. She arrived here 3 years ago. A couple of days ago, she was telling me how sad she felt. She has only two friends here in Canada: myself and another woman of the same ethnicity as herself. Her husband has no friends. He goes to the masjid, but he doesn't really know anyone (it doesn't help that the masjid he goes to is run by a different national-origin group than his own). He can't find a job. Her only child is in daycare. She's spent the past 3 years working like crazy to get her professional license. Now she has it. And she's trying to find a job.


I have another friend. She was with me when my last child was born. She's a nice person. I'd like to see her more, but she's always very busy. She was living with her husband in Saudi Arabia for several years, because he couldn't find a job here (so I heard from her even less during that time). He's still there, but now she's back here by herself (no family apart from her children), so that her children can go to university.


I have a Muslim neighbour round the corner. She's also a nice person. But I almost never meet up with her. She's too busy. Her husband lives and works in the U.S. We wave when we cross paths. Sometimes we talk for a few minutes. Her family is in France and Senegal. She spends a good part of her day chatting with her family and husband on the phone or on Skype. She's taking tajweed classes with someone in Pakistan. And she hangs out with Senegalese people here, when she wants to socialize with people in the flesh.


I have a friend from Morocco. She used to live a couple of blocks away, but she moved a couple of years ago. She's spent most of her time in Canada either studying for her professional license, or working full-time to get a foothold in her profession. She is fortunate: she and her husband have several relatives living in the general area. She is also part of a larger ethnic community. So she knows a few people. I have talked with herover the years (on the few occasions we talk) about if she knows anyone interested in marriage, both for myself, and for my daughters. She looked at me with pitying eyes and said: you have children… And as for my daughters?... nothing. Perhaps because the circles she moves in mostly have younger children, like herself? Perhaps because we are not Moroccan? Perhaps because she is so overwhelmed with the challenges of raising her children in an alien environment? Probably a mix of these and other reasons...


I have a friend in Montreal, where I used to live. I talk with her a few times a year. Occasionally, we meet up. She has quite a few (Pakistani-origin) community contacts. I have asked her about marriage and her own older children. One (out of eight) is married. I have asked her help. But she, too, is very busy. There was a man in my age group who was widowed... but she forgot about me. I only found out when she mentioned her husband had gone to his wedding. And as for my daughters... well, I have not heard anything.


I could go on. But it is pretty much the same story: immigrants, moving, too busy, physically separated from husbands or divorced, many different ethnicities, often few family or community ties, being wrapped up, alone and exhausted, with the challenges of living in this plastic world of ours... these are the realities of my time and place.


Imams? Hmm, we have 8 Imams in the greater area. I know 3 of them relatively well. They are all incredibly overworked. They do not have time to be Walis. Frankly, they run like crazy from problem to problem, like boys trying to fix leaks in crumbling dykes. What problems? Youth involved in gangs, drugs, the party scene, radicalization... meeting with government and security officials... worrying about the young abandoning the masaajid (which they are in overwhelming numbers- barely any come)... trying to find agreement with one another on basic points such as: when does Eid start (do we follow the moon or calculations?)...


The Imams often don't know many of the men who come to their masaajid to pray. One Imam told me of having men turn up of whom he knows nothing. They ask for an Islamic marriage. Only. He tells me he thinks these young men don't have honourable intentions. They just want to cover their actions with a veneer of halalness. I have talked about the problems of finding a spouse. I was told to go on Facebook and meet strangers in cafés. It was suggested that I start up a marriage service to help the Muslim community. (sigh) Perhaps I will try to do this. If Allah Gives me the health and energy.


Most of my life, I have been married (and when I was younger, I went a fair bit to all-girls schools). I kept away from men, lowered my eyes. Indeed, I felt very uncomfortable with men. I loved being home and raising my children.This was my focus: my husband and my children. But in more recent times, I have been forced to start to speak and interact with men: first with the Imams, then with masjid officials (who run things far more than the Imams do), and now more widely. I have found myself forced to talk with unpleasant men who claim to be seeking marriage. I absolutely hate it. The internet-met ones are the worst. The depravity of those who call themselves Muslims can be staggering. And my experiences are not the exception. Indeed, I have heard of worse experiences from other women.


(sigh)


But, (smile) I think we can agree with one another, Mohammad and Ardianto, that the best solution is to build strong communities. Link people together.Help people grow roots. Help them water their faith. If we had these things, we would be getting closer to the conditions of the Muslim community of our Prophet (SAWS). If we had these conditions, we would not, I think, have the same problems of isolation and alienation and marginalization that we are experiencing today.


However, just as revelation came slowly to the people of the time of the Prophet (SAWS), so, I believe, must we bring people to true Islam slowly. Much as I would love to have a strong and cohesive community of true believers, this is not the circumstance under which I operate. (mildly) Therefore, I believe, we must do what is necessary to preserve the faith and nurture our community. And helping true and decent Muslims to marry is one of the fundamental foundations of a healthy Muslim society, I believe.


Between the extremes of saying anything goes and never socialize, there are other possibilities. (mildly) Do you think, Mohammad, that when I talk with men, that I (or other Muslim women) observe no rules whatsoever? Believe me, if I could avoid talking with men such as I have been forced to do, I would be very happy. But just as, if I were starving, it becomes incumbent upon me to eat the flesh of dead animals, if necessary, just so I must talk with men (and believe me, there are times I'd much prefer to eat rotting flesh!).


I feel that perhaps the question should be put more to our Muslim brothers who are supposed to be protecting and maintaining us: why are you forcing us, your sisters in faith, into this situation?


Where is the leadership of men? Saying: don't do this, or: well, I hope things work out for you, sister... bye!, or: can you set something up for us, sister? is not leadership. We need real and concrete efforts towards real solutions.


(twinkle) Yes, I'm throwing the ball into your court again, O men!



May Allah, the Giver of Honour and Dishonour, Bear witness to our actions and intentions, and Guide us towards that which is Pleasing to Him.

 

[IslamicRevival]

An insightful post indeed. I do believe it's important to communicate but of course well within Islamic limits. The question is how to remain balanced without crossing those limits? Its a very fine line and perhaps the solution is to communicate but in an open environment preferably with family in the know. Allah knows best.

 

[Signor]

It is no secret that finding a spouse in today’s world is much different than it was in the past. Many would say it is even more challenging.The diversity of people and the potential to meet has made the internet a very attractive way to find a compatible spouse. Yet, the nature of interpersonal relationships is that they cannot remain as cyber relationships. The human touch is still necessary when it comes to a relationship with another human being.As technology continues to change, how we as Muslims interact with one another will inevitably play a role in how people meet,we must be aware of the pitfalls and dangers of this medium.

Talking about controversial statement made,I think it is the Islamic behavior which defines custom of courting.Muslims, men and women, should not gather in seclusion with the opposite sex without a mahram,not even in large groups or parties.I am still reflecting upon what can be done in the case stated without compromising Islamic values but I do know shariah allows a man and woman(for the purpose of getting marriage) to be in a room with the door open so that someone can hear just outside or with a mahram present inside the room(Would it be done in public,it can harm the reputation of man or woman).The idea is that a unmarried Muslim gets to 'sense' the other person without pressure from relatives and without losing modesty.

Religiously speaking, there isn’t a prescribed method for finding a spouse in our tradition.We find a variety of ways in our tradition that people utilized when getting married as well as different types of couples. Younger men marrying older women, intercultural marriages, arranged marriages and love marriages, marriages in which the woman proposed to the man, and many more. What this shows us is not that these ways are the only ways to do it, but there are many ways and no set, defined way to go about it. Permissibility does not equate to normativity,just because it’s allowed to be done in a certain way, doesn’t mean that’s the only way of doing it. In general, this is something that needs to be understood because too many of us give advice based off of our own subjective experiences and understandings, and don’t really think about the reality that the other person is coming from.Regardless of whats already mentioned,I managed to gather and address few points for the sake of guidance too,online or otherwise.

One downside to seeking spouse online has to do with one of its defining characteristics: the profile. In the real world, it takes days or even weeks to unfold, as people learn each other’s likes and dislikes and stumble through the awkward but often rewarding process of finding common ground. Online, that process is telescoped and front-loaded, packaged into a neat little digital profile, usually with an equally artificial video attached.

The sheer number of candidates that some sites provide their marriage-seeking singles,can actually undermine the process of finding a suitable mate. The fact that candidates are screened via their profiles already sets up a judgmental, “shopping” mentality that can lead people to objectify their potential partners. Physical appearance and other intangible characteristics may certainly be part of the spark that brings two people together, but having to sift through hundreds of profiles may become overwhelming, forcing the looker to start making relationship decisions based on increasingly superficial and ultimately irrelevant criteria.

It also means that people may unknowingly skip over potential mates for the wrong reasons. The person you see on paper doesn’t translate neatly to a real, live human being, and there’s no predicting or accounting for the chemistry you might feel with a person whose online profile was the opposite of what you thought you wanted.A partner is another human being, who has his or her own needs, wishes and priorities, and interacting with them can be a very, very complex process for which going through a list of characteristics isn’t useful.After all,Interaction is a rich and complex process.

Another major downfall of matrimonial-websites is that you can never be sure who is being honest and who is pretending to be someone they’re not.Some of these people are trying to con the men and women they meet. When people “chat” online, the computer screen reduces any personal inhibition and it becomes much easier to impress the other person. The Internet lifts real world boundaries so people fall easier into flirtatious and immodest behavior, become prone to saying things online that they normally wouldn’t say to someone in person, or chat for longer periods of time than they normally would with any individual.

Since internet makes it very easy to be anonymous; therefore creating an online profile can become the perfect opportunity to be someone different, someone better, someone more attractive, more wealthy, more educated, etc. The biggest complaint made about online matchmaking sites is that there is a lot of exaggeration and even deception.Individuals can exaggerate or lie about everything from their age and profession to what they look like and where they are from to their marital status.

Because of this the Internet makes it impossible to know whether the person you are communicating with online is a “real” person at all. People who are not serious about marriage may create profiles on matchmaking sites because they enjoy perusing people’s profiles and enjoy the “game” of meeting people and flirting online.They prey on the vulnerabilities and emotional condition of naive females,similar to cults. There are a lot of people online claiming they are looking for a spouse. It goes without saying that unfortunately not everyone has good intentions. Some men may even try to lure you with piety and say that they are pious individuals looking for a pious spouse. Be careful!

Safety precautions should be taken by everyone who posts a profile on a matchmaking site to ensure their privacy. Sharing private information with someone on the other side of a screen can be dangerous, since it is accessible to global viewers.Creating a separate email account for matchmaking correspondences would be beneficial in case a failed connection leads to one person stalking the other. In initial conversations with a person, you should be careful about how much personal information you share. It is best to withhold phone numbers, addresses of home, school and work places. This type of personal information should only be shared once the relationship proceeds to meeting in person and the character of the person has been determined.For this reason, it is important that people who are serious about getting to know someone for marriage must move from the online setting to an offline meeting as quickly as possible.

The nature of using the Internet in private may also persuade individuals to hide an online relationship from their families, which will become an issue once the relationship moves offline. Secretive relationships are a major “red flag” and Islamically a serious problem. Individuals who refuse to meet offline or with family may be withholding something that may only be revealed by meeting offline. Therefore, caution should be taken if relationships remain online and are based on secrecy as these serve as “red flags” that honesty and trust have not been established, and this will lead to further problems in the relationship.

Prolonging an online relationship can be a problem because the “connection” could be based completely on false information, which will ultimately lead to major disappointment. Therefore, remaining exclusively online to establish and maintain relationships can become a complete waste of time and even a distraction from finding a true match. Seeking to meet in person and develop a relationship that will lead to marriage needs to be the intention.Online mixing also removes any exclusivity.You can never be sure that you are the only person a potential spouse is chatting with unless you ask them upfront, nor determine the seriousness of the relationship if conversations continue only online.Therefore,Be straightforward about your purpose (not looking for friendship but marriage)that you are only interested in people who are seriously looking to get married. Do not waste your time talking about useless topics. Be careful of a person who just wants to bring up inappropriate topics with you such as an over obsession about looks (yours or his) or just plain flirting.Women like to be complimented and feel attractive to opposite gender; however, too much detailed talk about these things should be reserved for spouses. Therefore, we should not fall into this action. Also, be careful about someone who repeatedly avoids your wali(in sister's case), as this may be a sign that he is not serious.

Treat others as you want(and yours) to be treated,only then you can do justice.If one were to think over how he or she would like to be treated by others, one would evolve the human virtues.Anyone who meets a potential spouse online must maintain appropriate Islamic and personal boundaries throughout the process. Be aware of the language you use when chatting with someone and try to speak in the same way you would in person. Stay in tune with your feelings: if something doesn’t feel right or if someone seems too good to be true, it is probably your intuition telling you something is wrong. If you are chatting seriously with someone online, you should share this with your parents/other mahrams so they are aware and can further encourage you to meet offline.

Befriend Good People.This will open up the door for networking later on, because one of the main problems today is that a lot of people ask, ‘Ok but how do I meet good potential spouses?’ and they often say ‘I don’t know anyone!’ but in reality everyone knows somebody,there is always someone you can befriend. But keep in mind that these individuals should be good practicing people themselves because then they can help introduce you to other practicing people who in turn might have brothers and sisters who are looking for marriage.Just don’t become that sister or brother who always talks about marriage and the opposite gender, because chances are you might get labelled as “thirsty” if not worse.

Be at Good Places.Attend lectures,Special Occasions such as Eid gatherings,study circles or maybe even volunteer to help at the masjid etc, all these activities will open up the door for you to meet the right people and once you get to know them you can raise the issue of marriage discreetly.Most people who marry will tell you they got to know their spouse either through family and friends, or they might have actually met whilst doing the same activities, so try to be more active and don’t just sit at home feeling sorry for yourself.This does not endorse any talking between the genders without the supervision of a Wali. Be a man and step up your game if you truly wants to get married.

Be Introspective.We cry and say why won’t anyone marry me? But do nothing to change ourselves. How do you treat people when you get upset? What do you do if you hold a grudge? Do not turn a blind eye to all these important issues, rather tackle them one by one. No one is perfect but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be trying.If you truly and sincerely work on your own flaws, and really do become more caring and loving then you will notice how people will look at you differently. People will start to think of you as 'hubby' or ‘wifey’ material because you are good with kids, because you care for others, because you forgive people and don’t hold grudges don’t gossip etc the list is long but if you take one step at a time you will be married before you know it.

It’s very important to know yourself first and then consider whether you share common goals with your partner. Do you both have the same ideals, values, dreams, and aspirations? In essence, you should both be going in the same direction. If your partner has dreams and aspirations that go in the opposite direction from you, you cannot share a life together, even if that person is kind and giving.

Look for Kindness.When you first meet someone, you may have instant physical attraction, but this should not be confused with love. Love is something you must work on. It has to be created and developed between the two of you. Kindness and giving create love. A love that is giving and kind is based on an internal connection and is more lasting. Physical attraction is an external connection and will fade over time.

Love that is based on giving is because you care about the person, not because you want to get something back in return. This giving must go both ways. Both individuals must give to each other from a place of compassion and caring. So look for someone that is able to give to you and motivates you to give back to them. Marry a person you want to give to even if you get nothing back in return.How do you know if they are caring, kind, and compassionate? Listen to them. Listen to what they say, watch how they treat others, and listen to how they feel about helping those in need. Pay attention to how they treat you when you need sympathy. Are they so self-absorbed they fail to recognize your needs or do they take in your problem and try to give you empathy?

If you really pay attention, you can pick up a lot about a person’s character by how they speak to others and how they speak about others. Do they look down on other people, are they only focused on themselves and their needs; is their reaction towards other people extreme?Beware of any type of love that lacks a sense of giving and a sense of caring.

Be Realistic in your approach.If you think that you will marry that one complete person who has everything, you will never marry and that’s the harsh truth.Learn to appreciate the whole person which includes the good, the bad, and the ugly. In order for any relationship to succeed you have to have the humility to recognize the limitations in yourself and in others. We are all from God and everyone has flaws and shortcomings. No one is perfect.Ask yourself, what is more important to you? Is it more important to have someone you can have a deep and meaningful connection with or someone that will keep a nice and tidy house? You may not get both. Is it more important to you to have a responsible and reliable partner or someone that is fun and adventurous? What areas are you willing to compromise in? For this reason, you must be willing to throw out the term “perfect” and compromise for the “good enough” relationship and the “good enough” partner.It’s unrealistic and arrogant to think you deserve perfection. Since you are not perfect you should learn to accept the imperfections of others. The one who thinks the world of himself is usually the one who expects the world from others.

Observing the Character(For Males). To find pious woman,rely on your personal observation.If you notice a woman acting modestly, being not too obvious through her actions (by lowering her voice when around men), one who attempts to hide her attractions (which includes her external beauty as well as her internal charms), then you know she has some of those precious qualities. When you see a woman unashamedly flirting, unconcerned about her revealing clothes, and freely converses with males- keep far, far away. Through simple observation, you can get a glimpse of her nature; for example, the way she stands when conversing, how she maintains eye-contact, her clothes, where she spends her time etc. Look for her strong points, and don't stress on her weak ones.

In all of the choices we make, though, it’s crucial to remember that it is Allah(not Us)who brings us together with a spouse. Humans do need to take the initiative in a relationship and pursue the other half, but Allah is still the one who brings the couple together. Seek Allah's way and He will fulfill (or change) your desires. Finally, making du`a’ and istikhara prayers for guidance to what is best in your search for a spouse is essential. Maintaining a connection to Allah and relying on Him will help give you clarity and inner peace when making the important life decision to marry or not marry someone.

May Allah, the Giver of Honour and Dishonour, Bear witness to our actions and intentions, and Guide us towards that which is Pleasing to Him.

Aameen

 

[Signor]

If a Muslim woman doesn't have the means, e.g. somebody to look for her, no family, no imam as wali if a new Muslim, or normal routes can't be tried or aren't working, then patience is the key, along with hope, du'aa, trust, and continuing whatever permissible efforts there are, if any. Each of us has trials, and perhaps that is the trial for some, which Allah tests us by to see if it will bring us closer to Him, or take us down routes that He does not like, while we in our hearts think that we are doing it for good.

I made a post on similar topic,one of my all time favorite.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134323023-god-unfair-paradox-unexplainable-2.html#post1607460

 

[Signor]

I notice, there are brothers and sisters here who have negative image on opposite gender and do not know how to respect the opposite gender. The bad effect that will be happen is they will not treat their spouses well after they have been married. It's happen because they don't know about opposite gender except from people who 'indoctrinate' them which usually tell them about negative things like, women are materialistic, men are selfish, etc.

There's nothing wrong in speaking to the opposite gender, so long as it is done for need, with respect and without any non-sense. Gender interaction isn't an on and off switch between “fully integrate” and “totally ignore.”Lots of Muslims run into the dangers of the two extremes. We need to judge scenarios and see exactly what's up, while at the same time act in a manner of respect. We have to use our brain.

By following the example of Musa(A.S), we come to know the Prophetic method to interact with the opposite gender but to modify your actions to suit the scenario in terms of respect. When Musa(A.S)came by the two women who were in need of assistance, What did he do? Did he ignore them and walk away in “fear” of his Lord? No. Did he help them yet at the same time get too close and friendly around them? No. He helped them and took them to where they needed to go, yet he kept it real. As they traveled to their destination, he walked in front of them instead of next to or behind them, so as to help them and at the same time respect them according to the manners of gender interaction.

The story illustrates the remarkable attributes of truthfulness, trustworthiness, courage, and chastity,Qualities which all the Prophets of Allah possess.

 

[ardianto]

There's nothing wrong in speaking to the opposite gender, so long as it is done for need, with respect and without any non-sense. Gender interaction isn't an on and off switch between “fully integrate” and “totally ignore.”Lots of Muslims run into the dangers of the two extremes. We need to judge scenarios and see exactly what's up, while at the same time act in a manner of respect. We have to use our brain.

By following the example of Musa(A.S), we come to know the Prophetic method to interact with the opposite gender but to modify your actions to suit the scenario in terms of respect. When Musa(A.S)came by the two women who were in need of assistance, What did he do? Did he ignore them and walk away in “fear” of his Lord? No. Did he help them yet at the same time get too close and friendly around them? No. He helped them and took them to where they needed to go, yet he kept it real. As they traveled to their destination, he walked in front of them instead of next to or behind them, so as to help them and at the same time respect them according to the manners of gender interaction.

The story illustrates the remarkable attributes of truthfulness, trustworthiness, courage, and chastity,Qualities which all the Prophets of Allah possess.

:wasalam:

I am a quiet-calm person in the real world who do not talk much, and I also never talk to a woman if not necessary. However, definition of necessary maybe different between me and other people. If I meet a woman who I know personally I always greet her because for me this is necessary, due to etiquette reason.

Indeed, then we often involved in conversation for one or few moments although sometime it could spend 20 minutes or more. The reason why I let myself to be involved in conversation is etiquette too. I cannot ask a woman to not talk with me if she wants to talk with me. What I can do is maintain my etiquette when I talk with a woman.

One thing that I always notice, women feel safe when they talk with me. It's because I never do something wrong and always able to control myself.

I was born in a family that open-minded, but very conservative in manner and etiquette. Since I was kid I have been taught about etiquette of interaction with other people, including etiquette of interaction with opposite gender. I have been taught to have respect to other people, including have respect to women.

Yes, I have been familiar with interaction with women since I was kid and I know the difference between interaction and free-mixing. Interaction with women made me able to treat the women in respectful manner.

Frankly, there is something that I notice, Muslim men from moderate societies who often interact with women can treat the women better than Muslim men from conservative societies which implement gender segregation. This is a reality that I have noticed.

 

[ardianto]

I am not familiar with matrimonial sites, but I know how the men are, and I know about people behavior in internet. So, I have strong suspicion that there are men who use internet to become 'virtual playboy'.

There are men who dream to become a man who chased by the women who attracted to him because this condition indeed, can make a man feel like the king of the world. But they don't have supporting factors that can make them become a man like this. So they do not try to attract women in the real world.

But internet provide a place for people to be a fake person where they can do anything without other people know who and how they are in the real world. It's very possible if there are men who approach and seduce women in internet, not with intention to marry those women, but only to make those women attracted to them and they enjoy it.

I have this suspicion after I read stories of few women which they were attracted by men who seem like seriously interested to them, but then they are 'hanged' and abandoned. And my suspicion was becoming stronger after I found a part in MuslimInshallah post.

The following message was from a scammer:


Wow!! You have an incredible profile & you are stunning, gorgeous actually. I saw your profile and it caused and unusual impact, I am interested in you. You have such a beautiful profile. Have you found your lover? If you are still searching, I would like to know more about you, what motivates you? What makes your heart leap with passion? Love? Joy? I find your intelligence and beauty very exciting. Hope we can connect, have a great weekend...

I grew up together with playboys, I really know their behavior toward women. So I recognize the message above as crap seduction. :hmm:

 

[Muhammad]

:wasalamex sister,

The argument that the society/cultural context of the Companions (may Allaah :swt: be pleased with them all) was very different to ours needs caution as it can be used to justify other things too. In any case, I can understand to an extent the pressures you describe, of not having social support in place, but I am not sure I understand why you would feel 'forced' to meet men. You mention the need to build a strong and cohesive society, yet I don't see how this can be brought about by encouraging something Islam prohibits - men and women socialising. There may well be other possibilities, but before we can use laws of necessity relevant for extreme hardship, we should consult the people of knowledge to ensure the reasoning and the suggested solution is correct. In the case of starvation, a person is at risk of losing his/her life. In the case of marriage, the same cannot be said.

Have you considered moving to a different society which may be more cohesive and in which there may be better systems in place for people wanting to get married? Just a thought. Alternatively, you did mention you might try and improve the current situation of the society you are in, which may also be the only option. It is perhaps difficult for the Imams since they are so over-stretched, and more people need to get involved in bringing about change for the better.

May Allaah :swt: make things easy for all Muslims and preserve their deen, Aameen.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Assalaamu alaikum,


The next kind of scammer is worse than the financial scammer, in my opinion. I call him (and occasionally her; I've heard that some brothers have started experiencing this kind of fraud, too) the immigration scammer.


These young men (they are usually in their 20's and early 30's) are very common on Muslim marriage sites. They are not all necessarily 100% corrupt in their thinking. Some will try to make a marriage work, but have problems because they bit off more than they can chew (a 24 year old will probably have problems dealing with an older woman's teenage children, for instance). But all too many will just be looking for immigration to your country.


This problem is so acute in my country, that one of our local imams was telling me that 95% of marriages to overseas men don't work, and that he recommends women in our community not marry anyone from overseas. (sigh) But, of course, given that Muslim men in my country feel very free to marry non-Muslim women...and that these are the women they mix with and meet... there are too many Muslim women who have no husbands.


So what can you do? Personally, I've come up with the following suggestions:

1) Find out what your country's laws say about sponsoring a spouse. Find out about the process. What documents would he need to submit? What tests might he need to undergo? How long might it take (it can take years...)?

2) Find out what liabilities you may incur when sponsoring a spouse. For instance, in my country, if your sponsored spouse leaves you after coming to Canada, and then goes on social assistance, you must repay all the monies that the government gives him for up to 3 years (or up to 10 years if you sponsored his minor children). The law was recently changed to try to stem some of the fraud: if the person leaves you less than a year after coming, he can be deported (there were too many cases of people literally stepping off the plane, and dumping their spouse). (sigh) However, I think this will just prolong the agony, and cause more children to be abandoned by their fathers. But at least you'll only be liable for 2 (or up to 9) years maintenance, as I understand it.


Do these things before you even go looking for a spouse. Draw up some guidelines to protect yourself. Literally write them down.


For instance, if he needs to submit health checks, police reports, educational certificates… ask for these right from the beginning (and have them checked for authenticity- some fakes are pretty good). After all... he'll have to submit these all eventually... so why not right away? This will help you avoid the major liars who pretend they have diplomas, or that they are pure and healthy young men (when they are not). Because once you are married, it is much harder to break away from them, and they know it. They're hoping you will be so bound to them, that you'll put up with whatever disease or true diplomas they have.


This will help get rid of a fair amount of scammers. If you tell them you need these to just start to get to know them (while explaining that it is part of the immigration process he'll have to do anyway)... chances are that you'll never hear from them again. You are afraid to frighten away a true gem? Don't be. A true gem would understand the sensibleness and logic of the request. Many men run? Well... many men seeking brides in wealthy countries are would-be scammers.


Ask that he put some money in trust to cover the cost of sponsoring him and him leaving you once he arrives. Don't ask that he give you the money… this isn't fair. After all, he may be a true gem, and risk getting financially scammed. But look into how the money could be held in trust legally. This is done all the time when people are buying houses, for instance. Money may be held in trust by a lawyer or notary, with the conditions of release spelled out in a way that is fair to both parties.


Again, if he balks at this: beware.


Be careful, though. The scammer may agree to everything... but just not implement his promises. Before you get emotionally attached to a man (or woman), make sure that he looks into the immigration requirements (and that he meets them- not everyone can be accepted, even if you are married), and that he submits the proper documentation and funds, as necessary.


A wali can be so very useful for all of this... but, if you don't have a wali... see if you can't find an older happily married woman to help you out. If necessary, consult a lawyer or accredited immigration consultant (yes, this is pricy...but being scammed hurts like crazy, can bring children into the picture, and can be financially devastating).


(smile) I'm sure there are other things that can be done to protect Muslim women in desirable-destination countries. And if you know of any, please don't hesitate to post your suggestions on this thread. And if you are a Muslim man...perhaps you could think about helping your orphan Muslim sisters (because if we don't have Muslim families, or have menfolk who care enough to help us... are we not orphans?). Perhaps you could offer to be a genuine wali for a woman in your community, and help her through the difficult process of seeking a spouse?




May Allah, the Just One Who Sees All, Guide us towards behaviours and marriages that Please Him.

 

[Signor]

Waalikum Assalaam

And if you are a Muslim man...perhaps you could think about helping your orphan Muslim sisters (because if we don't have Muslim families, or have menfolk who care enough to help us... are we not orphans?). Perhaps you could offer to be a genuine wali for a woman in your community, and help her through the difficult process of seeking a spouse?

Wali,translated to "Helper","Custodian" or "Guardian",can be women's natural father (if he is Muslim) and the last in line is the ruler(again he needs to be a Muslim).However,in cases,where there is none available,a man of good character (whom can be relied upon by the Muslim women in question) can be chosen and not "offered" as far as I know.

Links below deals with the same issue:

http://islamqa.info/en/208700
https://asqfish.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/the-wali-guardian-in-marriage-role-responsibilities/

 

[Signor]

Today I stumbled upon an article accidentally and was surprised to see how the problems brought here by OP are really old.Indeed,a saddening situation for which a solution needs to be figured out.Before reading,Keep in mind author is a non-Muslim(apparently),so whats stated is how he perceive things.My intention(of posting) was only to point out the dilemma being faced by Muslim women out there in Canada.

.......................
​

Vancouver Sun ARCHIVES
Saturday, Oct. 4, 1997
Column: Douglas Todd

The murder this week by Muslim fundamentalists of 11 women in Algeria who refused to wear veils was another shocking example of how the struggle between religious fundamentalism and gender equality can play out in some authoritarian Islamic countries.

The consequences for Muslim women in Canada who choose not to adhere to the strict tenets of their faith are less severe, certainly less violent, but they still exist, especially when the issue is marriage.

Like tens of thousands of Canadian Muslims, Amina Ali is tormented by her religion’s marriage rules. Islam, now the second largest religion in Canada, teaches that it is sinful for Muslim women, but not Muslim men, to marry outside the faith.

The 36-year-old Indonesian-born Ali loves her Canadian-born husband – but they argue about religion all the time. And in her more fiery moments, Ali admits, she has told her husband she never would have married him if she knew he wasn’t going to seriously try to practise Islam.

Ali and another Muslim woman, Tannis (a pseudonym), agreed to talk about the Muslim marriage double-bind in a Victoria apartment, while their children played in the background.

Barefoot in a green polka-dot dress, Ali is a vivacious, naturally outgoing person. She moved to the Vancouver Island city after marrying her geologist husband, Retno Buckley, while he was working in Indonesia.

Her spirited personality helps explain why she has become one of the rare Muslim women, even in Canada, willing to speak about the marriage pressure her religion creates on women.

“I feel I have to tell the truth now. My husband says, `Tell the truth.’ But sometimes it’s so hard for me.”

Muslim women face conflict with their religion, families and Canada’s multicultural ethos because of this devastating formula:
1. Islam expects all Muslims to marry.
2. Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men.
3. Muslim men can (and do) marry non-Muslim women.
4. Therefore, there is a shortage of unmarried Muslim men. That means many Muslim women don’t marry at all, which is against the teachings of their religion. Or they marry non-Muslim men, which Islam judges a grave sin.

Professor Yvonne Haddad, a prominent Islamic scholar at the University of Massachussets, says that Canadian census figures, which are far more detailed than U.S. census data, reveal the extent of the marriage threat to North America’s roughly two million Muslim women.

Statistics Canada census data shows that roughly 30 per cent of Canadian Muslim women marry non-Muslim men, says Haddad.

About half of those women marry non-Muslim men who either convert or, like Ali’s husband, suggest to mosque imams they intend to, but don’t follow through, Haddad says.

The other half marry non-Muslim men, and live with the consequences.

“That means 15 per cent of Canadian Muslim women, and probably a higher percentage in the U.S., are living in sin,” says Haddad.

“In the Middle East, a woman who does that might be killed. There have been cases. People pretend it doesn’t exist, but it’s a reality.”

Women would not dare discuss the marriage bind in hard-line Muslim countries such as Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh or Afghanistan, where fundamentalists have interpreted Islamic teaching to mean single Muslim women must be flogged if found alone alone with a man, a raped woman is unfit for marriage and female writers must face death threats for saying religious laws don’t give women full rights.

In Canada, the U.S. and Europe, the repercussions for women who marry non-Muslims are less brutal than in many Muslim countries, but they’re still serious. They include stigma, shame, anger and often separation from the extended family.

Tannis says she worries she may have offended Allah by marrying a non-Muslim.

The anguish and uncertainty of the marriage double-bind for the East African-raised Tannis is even stronger than it has been for Ali. Tannis wedded a non-Muslim Canadian in 1992. The marriage is barely working out.

“I remember God telling me: `Don’t marry a non-Muslim.’ But I did,” Tannis says, dejection crossing her broad, handsome 27-year-old face. “I was doing my best. I prayed for him to become a Muslim. But it didn’t happen because he was in a difficult time. I was feeling regret: Why did I do it?’ I was freaking out. But he’s got a good heart. I’m feeling calmer now.”

Children are the crux of the Muslim law against women marrying outside the faith. Islam teaches that Muslim identity is transferred through the father. That makes it all right for Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women, because they don’t pass on the faith.

Although other religions, such as Judaism and Catholicism, also tend to frown on intermarriage, the stigma against it in North America is not that strong. In North America, more than half of the marriages involving Catholics or Jews are intermarriages, compared to roughly one-quarter of the marriages involving Muslims.

Due to high immigration, Islam has recently surpassed Judaism to become the second-largest religion in Canada, according to Hassan Hamdani, a Muslim who is also a Statistics Canada researcher. Islam has more than 400,000 adherents in Canada (about 10 per cent of them in B.C.), while Judaism has about 360,000 adherents.

But Canada’s Muslim population remains a small fraction of the world’s 1.2-billion Muslims – who range from a minority who emphasize individual liberty, including freedom of religious practice, to the large majority who more rigorously adhere to sharia, or Muslim law.

Simon Fraser University Islamic history professor William Cleveland says it would be hard to find an immigrant Muslim woman from the Middle East who would marry a non-Muslim. The only Muslims in Canada who would dare intermarry are Canadian-born or from countries, including some in Asia and Africa, that interpret Muslim doctrine less absolutely.

Alexandra Bain, who teaches Islamic art at the University of Victoria, says the pressure to marry a Muslim man creates an additional danger for Muslim women in Canada. Desperate for a Muslim man to marry, they look offshore for husbands. That leaves them vulnerable to being taken advantage of by men who marry only to gain landed-immigrant status, says Bain, a Canadian of French descent who converted to Islam when she was a teenager

Bain says her marriage to a Muslim man from Eritrea ended up on the rocks – not necessarily because of immigration issues, but because he was too bound by his culture’s strict interpretation of Islamic law, including those regarding women.

“I love the religion with all my heart, but I don’t like that the women don’t have choice,” Bain says.

Most of the Muslims who have immigrated to Canada in the past decade are ultra-orthodox, says Bain. The newcomers are making things hard for the relatively tiny number of Canadian-born Muslims, many of whom have become more open to intermarriage. The new ultra-orthodox immigrants, Bain is finding, are dominating Canadian mosques and clamping down on any moves toward greater freedom.

While the Muslim women sip tea and watch their children play on the patio, Tannis listens to Ali talking about how her parents in Indonesia don’t yet know that her husband has not bothered to follow Muslim practice since they moved to Canada seven years ago.

To get married, Ali’s husband had to recite the shahada – “There is no God but God” and “Mohammed is the Messenger of God” – an act that is considered the essence and beginning of being a Muslim.

But, as with many men who make gestures of converting to Islam at the time of their marriage, the commitment of Ali’s husband to Islam did not last. Muslim community members are now constantly asking Ali why her husband does not attend mosque.

“I have had to cover for him all the time.” Ali believes they are judging her. And she realizes it will get worse when her story appears in print. But Ali is not too fretful because she knows her husband has faith in God. And she believes only God, on Judgment Day, can truly know what is in a person’s heart.

Despite the evidence, official Muslim representatives deny that many Muslim women struggle in a marriage quagmire.

Sister Zuleika Hussein, official women’s representative at the Sunni Muslim mosque in Richmond, claims she doesn’t know of any Muslim woman in Greater Vancouver who has married outside the faith. “It’s a serious sin,” she says.

Hussein, an immigrant from British Guyana, admits she knows of Muslim women who fall in love with non-Muslim men. But she insists the men always convert and turn into devout Muslims.

Hussein says the different marriage rules for Muslim men and women come out of the Koran. Koran 2.21 says Muslim men and women cannot marry non-Muslims. Koran 5.5 , however, adapts the rule to say it is lawful for Muslim men to marry virtuous Christian or Jewish women. Since the Koran is silent on whether women get the same privilege, Muslim sharia has declared women do not.

Fehmida Khan, president of the Canadian Muslim Women’s Association, explains that Muslim imams and other religious officials won’t talk to non-Muslims about difficulties followers have with marriage.

“They’re only there to give the rules and regulations,” says Khan, an India-born businesswoman living in Ontario who calls herself a Muslim community leader, as opposed to religious leader.

“There is a lot of heartache if a Muslim woman marries a non-Muslim,” Khan said.

“The family will want to keep it quiet. They won’t take the same pleasure as they would in a religious marriage. Some grandparents might start by saying, `I’m never going to see my daughter or grandchild.”’

Khan, despite her willingness to admit to problems in Muslim culture, acknowledges she is caught between Muslim tradition and Canadian multicultural attitudes that are open to intermarriage.

But she still opposes it. Her grown children aren’t married. And she frets about who they may hook up with. She is trying hard not to interfere.
At least, Khan says, Muslims won’t excommunicate a woman who marries outside the faith. So there is always a chance for reconciliation.

“I know people who have married non-Muslims and the family has rallied after several years when they realize they are losing out on the children.”
One of the main reasons Khan continues to oppose intermarriage is her conviction that a Muslim marriage is much more likely to overcome domestic troubles.

Tannis, despite defending her decision to marry a non-Muslim, acknowledges that stresses increase when children don’t have a Muslim religious upbringing. When she sees aimless street kids in Vancouver, Tannis prays that her children won’t end up like them. “I want them to get away from that through religion.”

As for Ali, she still feels she and her husband can make a go of it, despite their disagreements over religion. But she also feels blessed that her children have been given the ultimate escape hatch from the marriage predicament facing Muslim women.

She’s very happy her children are both boys.

“I was so scared they’d be girls.”

In Canada, foreign-born Muslims are much more opposed to intermarriage than Canadian-born Muslims – and they make up the vast majority of Muslims in Canada.

Only about four per cent of foreign-born Muslim women in Canada will intermarry, says Hassan Hamdani, a Muslim researcher who studies Muslim demographics through his job with Statistics Canada in Ottawa.

But evidence of second-generation Muslims embracing Canadians’ openness to intermarriage is strong, Hamdani says. Almost 40 per cent of Canadian-born Muslim families consist of a Muslim wife and non-Muslim husband.

Regardless of whether one opposes intermarriage or approves of it, there is substance to Muslim leaders’ fears that children raised in an intermarried family could be lost to the Islamic fold.

Roughly 77 per cent of Canadian children raised by a Muslim mother and non-Muslim father do not count themselves Muslim (the Muslim drop-out rate is 60 per cent of children raised by a Muslim father and non-Muslim mother).

By contrast, when both Canadian parents are Muslims, Hamdani’s study suggests 99 per cent of their children maintain a commitment to the religion.

Source

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Waalikum Assalaam



Wali,translated to "Helper","Custodian" or "Guardian",can be women's natural father (if he is Muslim) and the last in line is the ruler(again he needs to be a Muslim).However,in cases,where there is none available,a man of good character (whom can be relied upon by the Muslim women in question) can be chosen and not "offered" as far as I know.

Links below deals with the same issue:

http://islamqa.info/en/208700
https://asqfish.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/the-wali-guardian-in-marriage-role-responsibilities/

Assalaamu alaikum Signor,

Yes, I've read about who the Wali is supposed to be. However… realistically, it is almost impossible to find anyone who will look after a woman's interests. Basically, all the imams are prepared to do is sign the papers handing you over to a complete stranger. They don't look into a man's character or read the nikkah, or anything. And mosque directors… I've never heard of any mosque director doing any such thing. And generally, you don't know who the mosque administrators are, anyway.

One reason I've suggested that men offer their services, is because women may not even know they need a Wali. I know that for my first marriage, no such thing was mentioned to me. I was made to sign some papers in front of an imam and two strangers called from amongst the brothers. No one advised me about anything. No mention was made of a Wali.

So Muslim women new to the faith, or those raised with almost no knowledge of the faith, may not even know that they need to ask for a Wali.

Secondly, even if a woman is aware of her rights and would like a man to help her as her Wali, she may not know any men to ask. For example, I had almost no interactions with Muslim men over most of my life. Who, then, could I ask? I finally tried asking three different imams. They said "Yes, sister"… and did nothing.

So this is why I think Muslim men could offer their help (rather than waiting to be asked). Really, I understand the imams… they are really very busy. But perhaps there are some kindly (older, happily married…?) gentlemen who could tell the imams that they could help their Muslim sisters out? The imams could do a police and background check on just these men, and then refer all Muslim ladies in need of a Wali to consult with one of these brothers.

(smile) Well, this is an idea. But if anyone has others, please add your two cents! Perhaps together we can find ways to help protect vulnerable Muslim women. (smile) And this could help shy and decent Muslim brothers in places like Canada find wives, too, I think. (smile) And good, strong marriages help build a good, strong community.


May Allah, the Expediter, Help us to help one another… for His Sake.

 

[Lisa921]

Assalamu alaykum
I don't know why our ummah both men and women are in such a hurry to marry. I know its sunnah to marry young but that was during the time of the sahabah when the realities of survival were not as harsh as they are today. Today youth have to get an education first before having a baby. Its hard to prevent babies since there is not 100% method of stopping pregnancy, if its going to happen its going to happen. What we need to do is educate our youth on abstinence and patience! Not just assume its easy to understand this concept. it has responsabilities and takes practise to achieve it.
So many muslims think oh i'll get marred young and just go on the pill/put her on the pill. that is not that simple. we need sex education to know our options and the responsibility of marriage and sexual relations after marriage. Maybe if the youth fully understood the realities of sex after marriage they wouldn't be so angsty to marry. subhana allah.
Sex education does not promote promiscuiality as some presume. I was educated on sex at 13 and I never did it until age 27 when I was married! That's because the class taught me the realities of that choice and it was choice to make after marriage (Which was taught in my family and faith).
BUt I know that sex education in muslim countries is severely lacking...I know this just from the serious ignorance I have heard regarding sexual relations coming from certain immigrants in certain countries.
PLEASE teach our youth the options and reality of marriage and babies and I guarantee they will be patient more!!
lol

 

[ardianto]

Islam teaches that Muslim identity is transferred through the father. That makes it all right for Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women, because they don’t pass on the faith.

Islam does not teach that identity is transferred only through the father because in Islamic concept, a child is descendant of both parties, father and mother.

But in Arab culture, identity is indeed, transferred only through the father. That's why Arab man is allowed to marry non-Arab woman because his child is still Arab. But Arab woman is not allowed to marry non-Arab man because her child no longer Arab. The conception in quoted post above is based on Arab culture, not Islam.

Some people say that in customs, Islam has mixed with culture. I have done a research about it and I found it's true.

 

[keiv]

This might be slightly off track, but this thread reminded of this one scenario in a movie. I don't know how familiar you all are with the movie "The Godfather", but to me, Michael's approach to his first marriage looked like the ideal approach to getting married from an Islamic point of view, imo.

Basically he fled to Sicily to lay low and was attracted to this lady he saw walking around but continued to move on without interacting with her. He (by accident) met her dad and asked for his permission to marry her without even knowing her. The father accepted, but before they got married, Michael and this lady met up a few times walked/talked and had a get together with her family all while being supervised by the family. Eventually they got married and then of course the rest of the movie plays out.

They were Christians, but does that not sound like the ideal approach to get married from an Islamic standpoint? Is it really that simple? Have times changed to where that is no longer the accepted approach and where material, money, and status is the ultimate representation of a suitor?

 

[Signor]

Predators, gold diggers and players - Warning signs your prospective spouse is a fake!
​

Despite many success stories both offline and online, the number of casualties falling victim to marriage bandits is rising every year.Whether this is due to the ‘Halo effect’, blind innocence or not doing your research, the effects can be both devastating and demoralising for the victims and their families that have been targeted.In this article we will teach you how to ‘check yourself before you wreck yourself’ by disclosing the common techniques that predators, gold diggers and players use to locate and trick their victims.By educating you on how to spot the signs of a non genuine prospective spouse, you can ultimately avoid the inevitable heartache, pain and humiliation that such a person would bring into your life –remember, forewarned is forearmed.

The saying, “There are plenty of fish in the sea” may be true but it is only half of the story. If we use this analogy further we’ll find that there are more than just one type of ‘fish’, some of which are highly dangerous and whose sole purpose is to take advantage of innocent people. We can classify these dangerous prospective spouses into the following:

• THE PREDATOR: Extremely dangerous and highly manipulative, often have an ulterior motive
• THE GOLD DIGGER: Will marry just for money, outright scammers for citizenship
• THE PLAYER: Casts the spell of affection and sympathy. A well loved sociopath.

By breaking down their behaviour we can analyse their strategies and learn the tell tale signs to look out for in order to protect ourselves

THE PREDATOR

• Like the most feared creature in all the seas –the shark–predators are ruthless, smart and always on the lookout for new prey
• They are well experienced –their victims are by choice, not chance. They often target the most vulnerable individuals of society and always do their research before ‘going in for the kill’
• They are highly controlling and manipulative in nature and work to isolate you from your family and friends whilst lulling you into a false sense of security
• They are relentless and persistent in their actions, knowing that if you are lonely or isolated they will eventually be able to gain your trust and be successful in their mission.
• Like stalkers, they are able to collect information about you –including what you told them without realising. This enables them to find your weaknesses and use them against you by telling you exactly what you need to hear

THE PREDATOR:A Case Study
You meet this so called practising brother who is married to another woman you know. He uses typical Muslim clichés like 'Marry me so I don't have to lower my gaze every time I see you’. He showers you with love and support when you feel low or lonely and persuades you no matter how much you object. He plays mind games and makes you think you are losing a blessing by not accepting him. He separates you from those that you could rely on for help.

He asks you to meet him in a public place which soon become the most secluded of private places. Things ‘just happen’ until you feel there is no turning back. He hides your marriage and uses various excuses for it. Once married he uses you to his own purpose and won’t give you your rights or his attention. Having made you give up your family and friends, you are now left completely on your own with no one to turn to.

Precautions

• As mentioned in previous artilces prevention is better than cure – keep your relationships with other people halal by maintaining boundaries.
• Don’t share personal information in the early stages and neverreveal details about yourself than can be used against you (secrets, photos etc) –it is not appropriate to share them before marriage anyway
• Predators won’t attack a woman who is protected by her mahram or wali so make sure that they are involved in the process as that is what they are there for –never agree to meet them alone, even in a public place
• If you suspect you are in trouble or your prospective spouse is moving too quickly without all the protective checks then run!
• Predators show extreme characteristics –either isolate you or get too friendly with those you love, making everyone believe they are good
• Be on your guard and don’t easily trust anyone no matter how smart you think you are -Focus more on actions than on words, don’t fall for sweet talk

THE GOLD DIGGER

• There is a narrow but important difference between a gold digger and someone who values your role as a ‘provider’
• The gold digger would deride and perhaps leave you if you lost your ability to provide for them financially
• ‘All that glitters is not gold’ –the gold digger may try to impress with their own ‘wealth’ to attract wealthy spouses, but it can easily be fake jewellery, rented cars or stolen gadgets.
• Conversations mostly revolve around money, lifestyle and materialism. They may demand unreasonable mahrsor pre- marital contracts
• Gold diggers are usually considered women but can apply to men in other circumstances such as getting a visa, asking for money to help with a ‘difficult situation’, wanting the wife to work instead etc
• Gold diggers have definite goals: Some want money or lifestyle while others want citizenship –they will use their physical appearance or charm in order to get what they want

THE GOLD DIGGER:A Case Study
Your prospective wife is the most beautiful person you’ve seen. You correspond with her for a while and are growing to like her a lot. At some point she tells you that you are the love of her life, and she is dying to meet you in person. Money is the only problem. So, could you please send her some cash to help her pay for the tickets/visa/passport?

Such a request when money is involved should immediately put a man on his guard. It often catches him off guard instead. Why? Because he feels like he has known this woman forever when in fact he has not. He sure is convinced this woman is completely innocent. She is just really desperate and needs his help. He being a gentleman, wants to rescue his future wife out of any distress! It’s the least he can do for her, right?

Precautions

• Never share your bank details or trust anyone with any amount of money, especially strangers
• Gold diggers are lazy and want money without earning it –so analyse the questions you are being asked no matter how innocuous they seem (eg“Do you mind work after marriage?”)
• They will burn through not only your money but time and energy as well
• The gold digger doesn’t stop with mahror dowry but has long term goals –they are people dying to cash in on men's feelings or women’s weaknesses Never pay for the visa of a prospective spouse coming from abroad –this is THEIR responsibility and they may weave many tales of why they can’t afford it
• Sisters in particular –if a man is asking you to pay for his airfare or visa etcthen be careful NEVER to help him in this regard financially

THE PLAYER:

• Players are experienced liars and master manipulators. They know what they want and know exactly how to get it.
• They are serial offenders –there’s no such thing as ‘the one’ for them, and despite what you believe you won’t be able to ‘change them’
• Their tactics include: finding victims based on their vulnerability, innocence or foolishness; charming and sweet talking you; lying to gain sympathy or make an impression; spreading false information about themselves online and making you feel special
• They are also very good at making you feel like the guilty party – they have self-inflated egos and so do not take rejection well
• They either do not care about Islamic etiquette or boundaries and will think nothing of flirting and being alone with you, or their practising appearance will give them the impression of maintaining boundaries whilst they simultaneously break them down
• Players never have long term goals. For them ‘the chase is better than the catch’ so they’ll be quick to dispose of you once you have served their purpose.

THE PLAYER:A Case Study
Your prospective spouse is handsome and friendly. You spoke very little with him but he requested your number because he’s moving or his online membership is soon expiring. You are flattered, and so agree. The next day he is texting and calling repeatedly, wanting to meet up ASAP because he really likes you. Curious, you research him online only to find out he is perfect. He is very Islamic and doesn't have girlfriends. You quickly come to a conclusion that he is the best man you could ever have and give him the chance to meet you in person or share photos that he desperately needs.

After you give in, you notice fewer calls and late or no responses. The tides have turned and you spend so much time, energy and money to get him to talk to you. You are hurt and upset and begin to realize that you never knew much about him and when you start to check out the things he told you none of it really seems to stand up.

Precautions
Don’t judge a book by its cover –they can look religious, but if they are flirtatious or ask to meet up alone, they are not as pious as they are making out to be. In case of online searches, don’t take conversations off the website. These players want to avoid leaving a trail that could easily be detected and give their game away.Most predators/players do NOT look scary. In fact they are handsome, charismatic, charming and feign piety
They quote hadiths or scholars to rationalise their misguided thinking and to manipulate you into thinking their way, but they rarely provide solid daleel/proof. Any religious knowledge they give is always self-serving and to help them meet their needs –including the quotation of weak or fabricated hadith.

Other Tactics

• Getting married with the intention of divorce (a temporary marriage or mut’ah) is an invalid marriage, because mut’ah is haram by consensus.
• Virtual or phone marriages are yet another trap by predators –allows them to marry and divorce women countless times, sometimes for a few hours or days, with virtually no physical trail or evidence
• They can hide marriage/divorce records from the community and continue posing as upright individuals
• Appearances are often deceiving –some may have the beard/hijab and a ‘Deen comes first’ profile but their behaviour will contradict this

Who Are They Prey?

1. Those that are vulnerable or easy to fool are usually:
2. Those without family and/or a network of friends
3. Widows/widowers, reverts, orphans
4. Those with low self-esteem and confidence
5. Divorced women with and without children
6. Men with strong desires or low self-esteem
7. Foreign students or workers
8. Ones who are attracted towards external appearances or supercial traits
9. Those with weak emaan and weak self-control

HOW TO GET RID OF THEM?

• Don’t warn or threaten them directly –it can aggravate them and give them ammunition
• Don’t suffer in silence –talk to your family, wali or organisations that can help
• Inform the local authorities or your local imam
• Take back control by refusing to take the bait – stop interacting with them, which is more effective than trying to reason with them
• Block their calls/messages and CUT THEM OFF including blocking them on social media
• If your spouse is the predator –seek counsel and don’t just ‘shut up and put up’

PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE

• Involve wali at all times even if you are in the conversation stage –Allah SWT has created them for your protection
• The best way to not get emotionally involved is to keep conversations halal and in presence of wali/third person
• Do your istikhara sincerely AND be content with Allah’s decree
• Do your research –get character references from their place of work, ask the local imams, do a Google search –you’ll be surprised how much this can reveal
• Listen to your instincts –if something about them doesn’t feel right, investigate the matter
• Remember, if a person is genuine, they will meet the family, if not, they will make excuses to meet you on your own
• Your personal matters are exactly that –personal. Keep them to yourself
• Social media sharing is a fitnah–what you post online can be shared around the world in minutes –even if you take things down, you never know who has taken your pictures and manipulated them
• Easy for an experienced stalker to find out your exact location from the GPS setting on your phone –so TURN OFF GPS settings or location setting on your smartphone
• Never EVER get into a conversation with a non- mahram on Facebook or anywhere else for no reason since this opens the doors to fitnah

Conclusion
So long as there will be vulnerable or irresponsible people in the world, there will always be opportunities for players, gold diggers and predators .A little common sense, research and shrewd behaviour can go a long way to protect yourself from fake prospective spouses.A man respects a woman who requires effort to marry –in other words a woman who is protected by her mahram/wali.Prevention is better than cure, however we shouldn’t let fake prospective spouses ruin our chances of find the right one –most people are genuine.If outward appearance sways you easily, and you are naturally open and talkative, chances are you could be the next victim.Discuss concerns with wise adults –involve guardians in each step.Do not waste your feelings, sympathy, and money on scammers. Save it all for someone who truly deserves it.Perform Istikara without inner desires and Allah SWT will guide you

Source

 

[ardianto]

There is a narrow but important difference between a gold digger and someone who values your role as a ‘provider’

In my place there are men who called cowok kedul (lazy guy), and there are men who called cowok matre (materialistic guy). Cowok kedul is a man who lazy to work and prefer to make his wife as provider of the family needs. Men like this usually come from poor family, or at least lower-middle class. The cause of this behavior is their bad mentality.

But cowok matre is different. They are not lazy, even they work and have their own income, but desire of luxury life makes them become men like this. Usually they come from middle class, educated, and smart. They are not always physically handsome, but indeed, charismatic. This is why they can easily get a trust from a woman who become his 'gold mine'.

Basically cowok matre is hedonist playboy who take money from a rich woman to support his luxury life style, and then having fun with other women. I know it because I know personally with few men like this.

 

[seagulls]

Assalaamu alaikum,


(smile) I'm going to make a controversial statement. And then I'm going to give a little context to it. I'm hoping to open a useful discussion that may help Muslims who would like to marry. (smile) Please feel free to add your perspectives and comments.


If you're wanting to get married and you live in a country like mine (Canada), it is best to start talking to Muslims of the opposite sex that are around you. Much is said about no free-mixing between men and women, but I feel that this is not reasonable for unmarried Muslims in a society such as mine. In my country (and in quite a few others), Muslims mix with non-Muslims all the time. This may well end in Muslims marrying non-Muslims. Men feel especially free to do this, and Muslim women then face the choice of not marrying, marrying a non-Muslim man, or getting into highly risky overseas marriages.


Furthermore, the local Muslim population is drawn from around the world, and is very mobile. This means that ethnic and cultural divides can be quite large, and people often don't know each other very well. There are also new Muslims, not just many-generation Canadians, but all Canadians, including originally non-Muslim immigrants from other countries. There are many people, but little cohesive community.


In this context, it is difficult for an unmarried Muslim to find a spouse. It is also quasi-impossible to find a Wali (a real one; not just someone who turns up to your Nikkah to sign you over to a stranger), unless you have family members who are willing and able to do this for you.


You can try to ask an Imam or people around you to help connect you to a spouse in your own community. It may work, especially if you are young and attractive (for a woman) or well-placed (for a man). I would still advocate that you get to know this person by meeting them yourself and getting to know them; they are rarely well-known by the Imam or the people who recommend them. And you probably don't know the Imam or the people who are recommending the person well, either.


In this context, a person wishing to marry (especially a woman), must take the time and make the effort to get to know the other person well, and be very careful not to trust the other person and get emotionally attached before that person has proved him (or her)self.


(smile) To make my text lighter, I'm going to continue writing from a woman's perspective. However, quite a bit of what I will say will probably be a good idea for a man, too.


Meet in public, or with your friends present. If you have supportive family members who are willing and able to help you (no matter what their religious affiliation), don't be shy to draw on their help. If you have no family, try drawing on friends, especially married friends, or older people. Try to meet his colleagues at work, his friends, neighbours (if you can talk with them without his knowledge, this is best), professors, relatives (if he has any in your country)... anyone who can give you an insight into his character. Look also at the way he behaves with those around him. Don't take his word for it. Watch carefully for what he actually does. How does he treat service people (waiters, cleaners, bus drivers...), strangers who ask for directions, his friends, his relatives... you... For instance, is he courteous? Is he on time? Does he keep his word? Does he pay for meals you may have together (not just one or two, I mean consistently)? Does he give you thoughtful gifts? Does he remember things that are important for you? Some warning flags are: if you find yourself feeling guilty, sorry for him, feeling hurt a lot, if you find yourself making excuses for him to other people, or find yourself paying for things (after some ingenious excuse or another on his part). It would also be wise to verify his identity (and have his documents checked by someone knowledgeable) and check with the police in your country if he has any record with them. A medical exam would be prudent.


I very much wish that there was a better and safer way for people (especially women) to find a husband. But right now, I feel that this is the safest way to go.


Women should be very wary of men who only want an Islamic marriage. This is a good indicator that the man is only looking for his own short-term gain; he very probably does not want to be obligated to you in any way. It generally indicates that he does not consider you as his real wife. He sees you as a mistress. Or worse. Are there exceptions to this? Yes, of course. But rarely.


A legal marriage is not a guarantee of his good intentions, but it helps. Men who stand to gain by a legal marriage may do this, even if their intentions are not honourable. For instance, if it helps his residency or immigration claim, or if a woman has an income or property that he could make a claim to in the event of a divorce (under the law of the country you reside in; these men care little for Islamic law, unless they can use it to their advantage).


Still, if you marry someone in your own country, you are safer than if you marry a stranger from overseas; at least you know your country's rules better, and have some sort of social support network.


If someone recommends you someone from overseas, you are going to have to be even more wary. Tell them upfront that you expect a full set of documents from them (and acquire them early in the acquaintance): at least all the documents that the immigration department of your country would require: medical checks, identity documents, financial statements, police checks... incidentally, you may need to ask for a more complete medical than the one your country requires. For example, in Canada, only certain diseases are looked for. A more thorough screening for sexual and other transmissible diseases would be very wise. If you have to sponsor him into your country, I would strongly recommend that a woman gets her prospective husband to put money into a legal trust that she would gain access to if he leaves her to go onto welfare (this is a real risk in my country; sponsors are obligated to pay for those they sponsor), or for any other financial loss that her particular situation may place her in. Legal documents to protect a woman's property are also prudent.


Finally, many people feel obliged to go onto the internet to look for a spouse. And this is the most dangerous route of all. You know nothing about these people (except what they tell you), the internet is a very intimate setting, there are professional financial scammers, and you are exposed to a wide range of corrupt (and corrupting) persons of the worst degree, such as online rapists (they like to send messages detailing what they'd like to do to you), seducers, immigration scammers, and organized criminals.


(smile) My text is a little biased, I know. I have experience and know stories from the woman's side, but I do not know much about the men's side, though I know that there are those who scam men, too. I'm hoping that other members can post about men's experiences. And also, if the brothers have knowledge of ways that men con women, that they may post them to help their Muslim sisters know what to look for, and how to deal with these deceptions. I feel that Muslim men and women need to talk with one another more so that we can better understand the challenges that the other faces. In this fractured world of ours today, I believe that we need to try to connect with one another and try to help one another.


I also know that my position that unmarried Muslim men and women should mix and get to know one another is contentious. But having looked at the alternatives, I cannot find a better route than this, at least in the present cultural context in which I live.


May Allah, the Distressor and the Source of Good, Help us to find benefit in the difficulties that we face.

And men should be aware of women who want to register the marriage. It indicates that they want to divorce them and steal half of their money (even more in some cases)