how to give dawah to atheists?

[sister herb]

If I offered you a million dollars, could you truly and fully believe you were a dolphin dreaming of living life as a human? Sheer force of will is not enough, right? So belief is not something you decide. You are either convinced or you are not.

If you get enough scientific evidences which make you convinced that the dolphins dreaming of living life as a human, wouldn´t you change your belief, with or without a million dollars? Well, most of those people whose say they believe the facts only will do so.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

One thing I have never understood: If "Allah guides whom he wills" (Qur'an 28:56), then what is the point of dawah? Why bother inviting someone to Islam if Allah has already decided in advance who will follow and who won't? Is it to keep Muslims focussed on the reasons for their own belief? Or maybe just because it pleases Allah?

As for giving dawah to atheists, remember that first you have to convince them that god exists. If you can do that successfully, then you can proceed and try and convince them of the further claim that Islam is true. Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.

The next time an atheist viewpoint is 'needed', we'll let you know.

I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.

Peace

 

[shafat10]

Greetings,

One thing I have never understood: If "Allah guides whom he wills" (Qur'an 28:56), then what is the point of dawah? Why bother inviting someone to Islam if Allah has already decided in advance who will follow and who won't? Is it to keep Muslims focussed on the reasons for their own belief? Or maybe just because it pleases Allah?

As for giving dawah to atheists, remember that first you have to convince them that god exists. If you can do that successfully, then you can proceed and try and convince them of the further claim that Islam is true. Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.



I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.

Peace

Long thing short, you have many misconceptions regarding some major points of religion.

First off, predestination as you call it.

See, this explanation can take hours long, and I don't intend doing that.

I will say in short, you have a free will, but God has knowledge of the future, He knows in advance what is going to happen, but he doesn't interfere in anyone's free will. God says He can, but He won't because this life is a test. If He interferes, then where is the test?
Hence the thing is, God knows in advance what is going to happen, because he has knowledge of the future, but that in no way means he is altering your free will. You have your free will which you are executing, but God just "knows".
It's not that God is writing and you are doing, it's what you are doing that God has already written in Advance, because he has knowledge of the future.
Hope that was clear to you.

Second point you said, not to mention Islam when talking about religion, rather just God. Well, little do you know, there are not many religions in this world, there's only one religion Islam. Islam didn't come in to existence 1400 years ago, Islam existed since time immemorial, since men set foot on the Earth. God sent messengers and prophets to all the nations and tribes and at every age. But those messages were meant to be followed for a specific group of people and for a specific time period. If you read the New Testament, Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 15, verse number 24, Jesus Christ PBUH himself says, I was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So you come to know that Prophet Jesus was sent only to the tribe of Bani Israel.
Since God didn't find it fit to preserve the scriptures, he kept on sending new messages via messengers and prophets. But as Quran is the last and final revelation, it is not meant only for the Muslims or for the Arabs, it's meant for the whole of humanity, and the message is to be followed till eternity.

Hence as you said, talk about God, don't bring Islam, well, if you notice it once again, you might want to rephrase your question because you're contradicting yourself, Islam = talking about God, the last and final revelation of God.

So ultimately, ya, we are talking about God with you.

Hope this helps.

 

[greenhill]

[MENTION=2092]czgibson[/MENTION] Allah guiding whom He Wills also encompasses another consideration: Apart from what is obviously implied here like meaning only that Allah arbitrarily (or randomly) selects, He Will guide those who seek. He will also guide those who need guide. The Pharaoh had Moses as a guide but didn't accept because he couldn't. The pharaoh was already declared 'god', how could he lower himself to Moses? He chose to defy. The guide was sent. So, it is up to that person to see it, realise it and accept it.. and believe ..and build understanding in stages.

Allah will not abandon His creation. Only His creation ponders not and asks not of Him.

eace:

 

[M.I.A.]

Greetings,

One thing I have never understood: If "Allah guides whom he wills" (Qur'an 28:56), then what is the point of dawah? Why bother inviting someone to Islam if Allah has already decided in advance who will follow and who won't? Is it to keep Muslims focussed on the reasons for their own belief? Or maybe just because it pleases Allah?

As for giving dawah to atheists, remember that first you have to convince them that god exists. If you can do that successfully, then you can proceed and try and convince them of the further claim that Islam is true. Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.



I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.

Peace

Another car story.

So I'd been looking into buying a new car because the one I have "is not good enough"

But I went to get a pack of cigs from the petrol station and I met two guys there they said salam.. They looked religious :/

When I finally got to my house they were stood opposite
..

So I got out and let on to them again.

Turns out they were from a "walking jamat" and had traveled all around my city walking and giving dawah.

Nice.

Anyway Allah swt guides whom he wills but I'd probably be better off walking..

No but seriously all kidding aside, its good practice.

And when somebody actually has questions then your own understanding increases.

I have no idea who is guided and who is not or the context of the answer.

I used to play football a lot and I know its a team game.

No use in strikers without a mid and defence..

And nobody ever wants to play goalie.

There are those that are guided and those that follow guidance.

...the funny thing is that iv never seen anybody turn up to footy and not improve.

Alhamdulillah

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.

This thread was made by a Muslim seeking advice from fellow Muslims about da'wah. He already indicated he was aware of the atheist viewpoint in the first post. Moreover, the replies from atheists so far have been nothing short of unhelpful. Beyond the usual ignorant remarks about religion, we are being told we have no evidence for what we believe in and even worse - how to give da'wah, or not to bother with da'wah. It would be far more sensible if non-Muslims did not advise Muslims about their religious duties.

You mentioned the Qur'an. This is among the greatest evidences for the truth of Islam. Numerous people have converted to Islam simply by reading a translation of the Qur'an, including atheists such as Dr Jeffrey Lang. We have people on this very forum who have found Islam through the Qur'an. Even the staunch opponents of the Prophet :saws: could not deny the sublimity of this scripture and could not tear themselves away from hearing it. Clearly, it is not 'entirely dependent on prior belief in God'. Only recently you remarked how the oldest Qur'an fragments found in Birmingham University were 'an amazing discovery of global significance.' I wonder if you 'saw through' that as well...

 

[Pygoscelis]

It's strange that you take pride in looking for answers and yet, for the most important question, you have stopped.

First, I probably don't agree with you on what the most important questions are. Second, no, I haven't stopped. My mind is always open and can be changed.

You can claim you see no reason to believe our beliefs are true, but there is no evidence to prove they are not true.

Correct. There is no evidence to prove they are not true. I have no way to falsify them, so that will always be so. However, that, by itself, doesn't mean I should adopt said beliefs. That is the point of those analogies you noted. They are other things that we can not disprove. The point of them being outlandish is to show that just because something can not be disproved, doesn't mean we should believe in them. Can we agree on that much?

As such, you have made a choice when you choose a way of life stating adamantly there is no God.

No, I have not made any such choice, nor do I say adamantly there is no God. I am not 100% certain that there is no God. I can't be 100% certain of that. I never claimed to be. I just don't have any belief that there is. Nor is it a binary thing. Perhaps there is some spiritual creator of the universe being or beings. There could be one; there could be many; he could want this; or she could want that. I simply do not know. And as I look at the world around me I see no reason to conclude that any such being is there, or if is there, that it cares about me, wants anything of me, etc.

You may see me as a lost soul, blind to what you see as the obvious truth of Islam. And that is fine. Perhaps I am. But I ask you please, to not put words in my mouth.

Throughout time, people have made the choice not to believe even when, deep down, they knew what the right path was.

If, as you say, deep down they knew what the right path was, then they believed all along, didn't they? I honestly and truly do not "know" that yours is the "right" path. If I did, I would walk your path. This isn't a matter of rebelling against my creator. This is me not seeing a creator to rebel against. Can you understand that?

The next time an atheist viewpoint is 'needed', we'll let you know.

You clearly do need it, as you don't seem to understand what an atheist IS if you keep insisting that we have chosen not to believe or to declare adamantly there is and can be no God. That isn't what we are at all. I hope this post has helped you understand. That may actually help you with your dawah too. As the other nice atheist fellow asked, the dawah thing is more than just for show, right? You actually intend to reach some people, save some souls and all that? Knowing your audience should help you in getting across your message, should it not?

 

[Pygoscelis]

If you get enough scientific evidences which make you convinced that the dolphins dreaming of living life as a human, wouldn´t you change your belief, with or without a million dollars? Well, most of those people whose say they believe the facts only will do so.

Oh yes, I absolutely agree. So you can see then, that it isn't a choice we atheists make not to believe what you do in Islam. We are simply not convinced by the evidence, in the same way that you yourself are not convinced in what a Christian or a Jew or Hindu would say is their evidence for their beliefs.

 

[shafat10]

Oh yes, I absolutely agree. So you can see then, that it isn't a choice we atheists make not to believe what you do in Islam. We are simply not convinced by the evidence, in the same way that you yourself are not convinced in what a Christian or a Jew or Hindu would say is their evidence for their beliefs.

As far as the other religions are concerned, the scholars of their own religion agree that there are errors and mistakes in their scriptures.

So when the students and followers themselves doubt on that, how can we accept it?

 

[sister herb]

Oh yes, I absolutely agree. So you can see then, that it isn't a choice we atheists make not to believe what you do in Islam. We are simply not convinced by the evidence, in the same way that you yourself are not convinced in what a Christian or a Jew or Hindu would say is their evidence for their beliefs.

Some of us atheist have found the Quran as the evidence of the truth of the God and by our own free will we found out its the only truth. Some atheists like for example I was before. It is your own choice if you believe the clear evidence or not. Some people refuse to believe even the truth is shown to them how clearly ever but still they say "we don´t believe". Well, it´s their own free will what works in their minds. Are the evidencies enough to convince or not is not the matter - they have decided not to believe by their own choice.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, Muhammad,

This thread was made by a Muslim seeking advice from fellow Muslims about da'wah. He already indicated he was aware of the atheist viewpoint in the first post.

He's shown that he's aware of the basic atheist position, but you would need to know far more than that in order to begin a convincing case directed at an atheist. Without understanding the reasons for the atheist position, or the possible nuances that such a position might entail, any attempt to engage an atheist in a serious discussion would be naive and fruitless.

Moreover, the replies from atheists so far have been nothing short of unhelpful.

That is your judgement, and you are entitled to it.

Beyond the usual ignorant remarks about religion, we are being told we have no evidence for what we believe in and even worse - how to give da'wah, or not to bother with da'wah.

Pygo and I have made a sincere attempt to understand your religion over a number of years on this forum, and because we have come to different conclusions than you, you accuse us of ignorance. You also repeatedly misrepresent what we have said.

If we have offered advice on how to invite people to Islam, then that is because that is what the OP was asking for. Forgive us for being the wrong type of person; it was a sincere attempt to help.

I don't recall anyone saying that Muslims should not bother with dawah. If you are referring to my question about how dawah can be worthwhile given that Allah guides whom he wills, I asked it because that to me looks like an obvious contradiction, not because I'm saying Muslims shouldn't do it. Of course they have the right to do it.

It would be far more sensible if non-Muslims did not advise Muslims about their religious duties.

It's strange that you can't see how an understanding of the atheist position could be of use to someone attempting to call an atheist to Islam.

You mentioned the Qur'an. This is among the greatest evidences for the truth of Islam. Numerous people have converted to Islam simply by reading a translation of the Qur'an, including atheists such as Dr Jeffrey Lang.

I'm sure many have read it and not been convinced. But what does that prove? Just as little as your claim regarding converts.

We have people on this very forum who have found Islam through the Qur'an. Even the staunch opponents of the Prophet :saws: could not deny the sublimity of this scripture and could not tear themselves away from hearing it.

So how do you explain the large numbers of people who have no trouble in denying the sublimity of the text?

Clearly, it is not 'entirely dependent on prior belief in God'.

You present this as though it is a conclusion from your previous statements, when in fact it doesn't logically follow at all. On his journey from atheism to Islam, Jeffrey Lang must have first accepted belief in god and then continued to accept all the other beliefs of Islam. How else could such a thought process work? You have said yourself in previous discussions that Islamic beliefs on all the matters of life are reliant on a firm foundation of belief that there is one God, and the subsequent belief that Muhammad is his messenger.

Only recently you remarked how the oldest Qur'an fragments found in Birmingham University were 'an amazing discovery of global significance.' I wonder if you 'saw through' that as well...

I stand by that, of course. It's an immensely important discovery. I don't see anything in it to support the claims you make, nor do I see how it contradicts or detracts from anything I've said. What are you getting at here?

Peace

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

You say that you are open to the possibility of there being a Creator and that your mind is open. This is good to hear. I do wish, however, this was better reflected in the posts of atheists who, rather than seeking answers and growth of understanding, consistently seem to be determined to undermine.

Correct. There is no evidence to prove they are not true. I have no way to falsify them, so that will always be so. However, that, by itself, doesn't mean I should adopt said beliefs. That is the point of those analogies you noted. They are other things that we can not disprove. The point of them being outlandish is to show that just because something can not be disproved, doesn't mean we should believe in them. Can we agree on that much?

No. I'm not saying to adopt belief in Islam simply because it cannot be disproven. I said above that it is a logical and coherent belief in one God - a belief supported by Prophets and Messengers throughout the ages, scriptures, signs and miracles, logical arguments, innate human nature, and more. It leaves no room for doubt. The Qur'an challenges,

And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave, then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]
​

Repeatedly mankind is asked to reflect and belief in religion is supported with reason after reason:

Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction. [Qur'an 4:82]
​

If, as you say, deep down they knew what the right path was, then they believed all along, didn't they?

We are using the term 'belief' in different ways. In Islam, 'faith' is more than simply an awareness in one's heart. It is possible to know God exists and that Islam is the right religion yet fail to follow that up with action and enter into the fold of Islam. I'm not saying you or anyone else falls under this description. I'm simply pointing out that such a choice does exist.

I hope this post has helped you understand. That may actually help you with your dawah too. As the other nice atheist fellow asked, the dawah thing is more than just for show, right? You actually intend to reach some people, save some souls and all that? Knowing your audience should help you in getting across your message, should it not?

Understanding works both ways. There's no need to concern yourself with Muslims' responsibility of da'wah especially when you do not share our concern or perspective. When someone wishes to explore atheism, they will specifically ask.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

He's shown that he's aware of the basic atheist position, but you would need to know far more than that in order to begin a convincing case directed at an atheist. Without understanding the reasons for the atheist position, or the possible nuances that such a position might entail, any attempt to engage an atheist in a serious discussion would be naive and fruitless.

My issue is not with clarifying what atheists actually believe. We have had numerous threads discussing atheism in the Comparative Religion section. My issue is with atheists derailing threads like this with their opinions on how Muslims don't have any evidence, comparing their beliefs to ridiculous ideas and degrading the Qur'an.

Pygo and I have made a sincere attempt to understand your religion over a number of years on this forum, and because we have come to different conclusions than you, you accuse us of ignorance. You also repeatedly misrepresent what we have said.

The ‘ignorance’ is with regards to comparing our beliefs to ridiculous ideas. Surely a sincere attempt for numerous years could clarify this much at least. I’m not sure which ‘repeated’ misrepresentations I’ve made here.

If we have offered advice on how to invite people to Islam, then that is because that is what the OP was asking for. Forgive us for being the wrong type of person; it was a sincere attempt to help.

You’ve made it very clear to me elsewhere what you think of my religion. Forgive me if I have difficulty in believing you would be interested in helping to convert people to Islam.

I don't recall anyone saying that Muslims should not bother with dawah.

I was referring to Pygoscelis’ statements such as, ‘There is no need to give Dawah to atheists’.

It's strange that you can't see how an understanding of the atheist position could be of use to someone attempting to call an atheist to Islam.

As I said above, the main issue is not with understanding atheism. It is also problematic for atheists to be advising Muslims about something they barely understand – the Islamic concept of da’wah.

I'm sure many have read it and not been convinced. But what does that prove? Just as little as your claim regarding converts.

So how do you explain the large numbers of people who have no trouble in denying the sublimity of the text?


You present this as though it is a conclusion from your previous statements, when in fact it doesn't logically follow at all. On his journey from atheism to Islam, Jeffrey Lang must have first accepted belief in god and then continued to accept all the other beliefs of Islam. How else could such a thought process work?

I don’t see the difficulty here. It’s very easy for someone to accept belief in God after reading the Qur’an. Throughout the Scripture, we are introduced to God and the concept of monotheism is illustrated in numerous ways and examples. We are asked to reflect, ponder and reason on this subject repeatedly. My statements about the Qur’an changing people was to highlight it is not dependent on anything prior. For those who are not moved by it, it is their loss. The Qur'an itself says that not everyone will be guided.

You have said yourself in previous discussions that Islamic beliefs on all the matters of life are reliant on a firm foundation of belief that there is one God, and the subsequent belief that Muhammad is his messenger.

I have spoken of Islam being based on firm foundations. But I don’t think you are applying what I said correctly here.

I stand by that, of course. It's an immensely important discovery. I don't see anything in it to support the claims you make, nor do I see how it contradicts or detracts from anything I've said. What are you getting at here?

Earlier you claimed that an atheist would be able to ‘see through’ the Qur’an as a support for the truth of Islam. When you yourself have acknowledged an extraordinary aspect of the Qur’an, namely its precise preservation, why then do you speak of it here as though it has no significance?

 

[Pygoscelis]

We are using the term 'belief' in different ways. In Islam, 'faith' is more than simply an awareness in one's heart. It is possible to know God exists and that Islam is the right religion yet fail to follow that up with action and enter into the fold of Islam. I'm not saying you or anyone else falls under this description. I'm simply pointing out that such a choice does exist.

This I can agree with. If somebody believes God exists and knows what God wills of them, then, and only then they do indeed have a choice, and sometimes we hear of believers saying they strive and try hard to do as their god commands, but sometimes fall short, etc. But that is with what I would call believers, and certainly not atheists. Atheists are people who don't believe. We don't have the choice you speak of here. And I think that is vital for believers to understand. We really truly don't believe your God(s) is/are real. The over the top comparisons you refer to are usually made to drive that point home, as it seems to get lost very easily in the minds of believers, who keep going back to the assumption that atheists Do believe and we are just in rebellion or something. We often get told we "reject" God or are infidels to God etc. But we are not. You can not reject what doesn't exist and you can't disobey a fictional character, which is what God is from our point of view.

Sometimes atheists may come across as hostile or as belittling your beliefs, but don't presume this to be so. A rejection of your beliefs is not a rejection of you as a person, nor is it necessarily done in bad faith. The person rejecting your beliefs may have every reason to do so, and at the same time, you may have every reason to hold your beliefs. This is not a contradiction, since you have separate life experiences and knowledge bases.

 

[Muhammad]

Pygoscelis,

Although I understand what you are saying about atheists, I disagree that you have no choice. God is the Most Just and the Most Merciful. He wishes guidance for His creation and He has facilitated that in many ways. God has created humankind with the inclination to be guided and take the right path. He has given man the ability to distinguish between truth and falsehood, between what is beneficial and what is harmful, by means of the reason that He has instilled in him, and the explanations with which He has sent His Messengers. You may see God as a fictional entity at this stage of your life, but you do have a choice to investigate, to reflect and overcome the reasons for this. If a person strives to be good and to follow the right path, Allaah The Almighty will guide him to the right path:

And those who strive for Us— We will surely guide them to Our ways. [Quran 29:69]


Many times, people do not even seem to be making an effort to understand. They are only interested in misquoting verses and misrepresenting teachings of Islam to support a negative image they wish to portray. I took issue with the comparisons you made earlier because there are no good reasons to believe such things, yet there is every reason to accept Islam.

So where are you going?
It is not except a reminder to the worlds
For whoever wills among you to take a right course.
And you do not will except that Allah wills - Lord of the worlds.
[Qur'an 81: 26-29]

 

[M.I.A.]

This I can agree with. If somebody believes God exists and knows what God wills of them, then, and only then they do indeed have a choice, and sometimes we hear of believers saying they strive and try hard to do as their god commands, but sometimes fall short, etc. But that is with what I would call believers, and certainly not atheists. Atheists are people who don't believe. We don't have the choice you speak of here. And I think that is vital for believers to understand. We really truly don't believe your God(s) is/are real. The over the top comparisons you refer to are usually made to drive that point home, as it seems to get lost very easily in the minds of believers, who keep going back to the assumption that atheists Do believe and we are just in rebellion or something. We often get told we "reject" God or are infidels to God etc. But we are not. You can not reject what doesn't exist and you can't disobey a fictional character, which is what God is from our point of view.

Sometimes atheists may come across as hostile or as belittling your beliefs, but don't presume this to be so. A rejection of your beliefs is not a rejection of you as a person, nor is it necessarily done in bad faith. The person rejecting your beliefs may have every reason to do so, and at the same time, you may have every reason to hold your beliefs. This is not a contradiction, since you have separate life experiences and knowledge bases.

Everybody has separate life experiences.?

I like your signature.

You would be surprised how many of us are obedient rather than moral..

But it does sound nice.

You have had the football analogy but most have never considered the stadium.. Or what is outside of it.

A lot of people turn to religion in prison.


..ever considered why schizophrenics don't have positive voices in there heads?


Brain chemistry :|

Iv not been to prison by the way.


I guess the only way to make the post relevant is to make the analogy of sharing a room.. A lot of people already do this.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, Muhammad,

Greetings czgibson,

My issue is not with clarifying what atheists actually believe. We have had numerous threads discussing atheism in the Comparative Religion section.

How long has that section been closed now?

My issue is with atheists derailing threads like this with their opinions on how Muslims don't have any evidence, comparing their beliefs to ridiculous ideas and degrading the Qur'an.

I'm not sure if you are expressing surprise here about what are very common ideas that tend to follow directly from the atheist position. Surely a da'ee would be well advised to keep them in mind when engaging an atheist in discussion?

You’ve made it very clear to me elsewhere what you think of my religion. Forgive me if I have difficulty in believing you would be interested in helping to convert people to Islam.

Here's one of the misrepresentations I was talking about. I don't remember saying I was interested in helping convert people to Islam. What I am interested in doing is helping Muslims to understand the atheist position, so that (hopefully) the quality of discussion between Muslims and non-Muslims can be improved.

I was referring to Pygoscelis’ statements such as, ‘There is no need to give Dawah to atheists’.

Fair enough, I missed that.

As I said above, the main issue is not with understanding atheism. It is also problematic for atheists to be advising Muslims about something they barely understand – the Islamic concept of da’wah.

It seems to be a pretty straightforward concept to me.

I don’t see the difficulty here. It’s very easy for someone to accept belief in God after reading the Qur’an.

Perhaps, yes. And then they might subsequently accept the rest of the Islamic beliefs. That is the point I was making. Misrepresentation #2.

I have spoken of Islam being based on firm foundations. But I don’t think you are applying what I said correctly here.

I'm not surprised to see you moving the goalposts once again.

Earlier you claimed that an atheist would be able to ‘see through’ the Qur’an as a support for the truth of Islam. When you yourself have acknowledged an extraordinary aspect of the Qur’an, namely its precise preservation, why then do you speak of it here as though it has no significance?

And here is misrepresentation #3. Please show me where I referred to the precise preservation of the Qur'an as being extraordinary. It's impressive in the same way as the preservation of any ancient text is impressive, but that isn't the same as saying there's anything miraculous about it, or that it points to the truth of Islam. You may as well say that the preservation of Hesiod's Theogony points to the truth of ancient Greek mythology.

Peace

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

How long has that section been closed now?

It was closed for good reason, as this thread is proving.

I'm not sure if you are expressing surprise here about what are very common ideas that tend to follow directly from the atheist position.

I see. So those same atheists who apparently 'have made a sincere attempt to understand [Islam] over a number of years on this forum' now know no better than to purport 'common ideas'.

Here's one of the misrepresentations I was talking about. I don't remember saying I was interested in helping convert people to Islam. What I am interested in doing is helping Muslims to understand the atheist position, so that (hopefully) the quality of discussion between Muslims and non-Muslims can be improved.

You described your presence in this thread as a 'sincere attempt to help' in the context of inviting people to Islam. Obviously that can be understood in different ways. Now you give a clarification, but that doesn't mean I deliberately misrepresented what you said earlier.

It seems to be a pretty straightforward concept to me.

I'm glad if that is the case. Earlier you seemed to think there was a contradiction.

Perhaps, yes. And then they might subsequently accept the rest of the Islamic beliefs. That is the point I was making. Misrepresentation #2.

I think a misunderstanding (again, not a deliberate misrepresentation) has occurred somewhere here. Perhaps it is the outcome of focusing on individual sentences rather than viewing them in the context in which they were said. This part of the post is stemming from what you said earlier: 'Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.' What I understood from this is that you believe the Qur'an can only be appreciated by someone who already believes in God. I was saying that the Qur'an can be appreciated by anyone, even atheists who don't believe in God, and is a means for them to find belief.

And here is misrepresentation #3. Please show me where I referred to the precise preservation of the Qur'an as being extraordinary. It's impressive in the same way as the preservation of any ancient text is impressive, but that isn't the same as saying there's anything miraculous about it, or that it points to the truth of Islam.

As before, this is simply pedantry. I didn't claim you were affirming a miracle of the Qur'an. The main thing I was highlighting was an appreciation of an aspect of the Qur'an, by the same person who seems to be implying it is a text of no or little significance, and that it is only appreciable by those already believing in God (which is evidently not the case. Again, I'm not saying you actually said these exact words. It's what I understood from your post). The discovery of the oldest Qur'an fragments, amongst other things, naturally points to the preservation of the Qur'an. If you didn't intend to make such a positive statement about the Qur'an, I'm sorry for assuming so.

It should be added, though, the preservation of the Qur'an is something that is very easy to appreciate as unique. Muslims everywhere memorize the Qur'an, many millions memorizing the entire Qur'an from cover to cover, If all the books in the entire world were to be lost or destroyed, only the Qur'an would be recovered letter for letter as it is preserved in the hearts of so many millions. As far as the textual history goes, the criteria used in the compilation of the Qur'an was that for each verse there had to be at least two witnesses, each of whom having not only memorized the verse but had with them the parchment on which they recorded the verse in the presence of the Prophet :saws: himself. No other scripture has been preserved in such a way. How could it, when the preservation of this Book is promised by Allaah :swt: Himself.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. [Qur'an 15:9]
​

 

[Pygoscelis]

Everybody has separate life experiences.?

Yes. We grow up in different countries, as different genders, races, etc. Our parents may have different religions, political beliefs, etc. We may be exposed to different ideas in different orders. Even identical twins raised by the same parents will not have the exact same life experiences. All that needs to happen is that they be apart for a moment or two. Our life experiences go a long way towards forming who we are, so your life experiences may have brought to to a completely rational belief in Islam, and mine may have brought me to a completely rational dismissal of it. It doesn't have to be a contradiction and neither of us have to be irrational. Perhaps you know something I do not, or vice versa, etc.

I like your signature.

You would be surprised how many of us are obedient rather than moral..

Thank you. It is something that occurred to me long ago, and something I try to keep in mind. Being good doesn't mean doing what one is told. It can sometimes mean the opposite, depending what one is told.

A lot of people turn to religion in prison.

Yes, and I don't find that surprising at all. It both looks good on them in front of parole boards, and it lets them feel they have a new life and a new chance, etc. Though I suspect some of them do it for show, I think a lot of them are sincere.

It was closed for good reason, as this thread is proving.

I am glad it was at least left readable. It is a good display for Muslims who come here and are curious, as the most recent posts in it are some pretty aggressive and hateful attacks on atheists (and Christians), replied to in very gentle and kind ways. It reminds of of the Muslim lady who bought the islamophobe a coffee in response to his hate mentioned in another recent post here. I look forward to a day when people don't judge or hate each other based on labels like "Muslim", "Atheist", etc.

 

[Abz2000]

Yes. We grow up in different countries, as different genders, races, etc. Our parents may have different religions, political beliefs, etc. We may be exposed to different ideas in different orders. Even identical twins raised by the same parents will not have the exact same life experiences. All that needs to happen is that they be apart for a moment or two. Our life experiences go a long way towards forming who we are, so your life experiences may have brought to to a completely rational belief in Islam, and mine may have brought me to a completely rational dismissal of it. It doesn't have to be a contradiction and neither of us have to be irrational. Perhaps you know something I do not, or vice versa, etc.

excuse me, putting an infection causing chip in someone's head at age six in order to shadow light with darkness in disguise due to fear of the repercussions one's (one cartel's) evil deeds may bring, and then claiming there's no God, the messengers are deluded or lying, and denying the fact while the person suffers due to the burden of your crimes is irrational and criminal.

Thank you. It is something that occurred to me long ago, and something I try to keep in mind. Being good doesn't mean doing what one is told. It can sometimes mean the opposite, depending what one is told.

then let karma take care of you, as Allah says in Surah al Isra' - if you did good you did it for yourselves, and if you did evil you did it against yourselves,
and:
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss:
No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).
16. When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.

and in chapter 2
256.*Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
257.*Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light.
Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

101.*And when there came to them a messenger from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!
102.*They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: and Solomon did not disbelieve but the satans disbelieved, teaching people sorcery, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not disbelieve." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah.s permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!
103.*If they had kept their Faith and guarded themselves from evil, far better had been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!
104.*O ye of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger ra'ina (words of ambiguous import/look at what we do/try to figure us out/our shepherd), but say undhurnaa and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment.
105.*It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.

Yes, and I don't find that surprising at all. It both looks good on them in front of parole boards, and it lets them feel they have a new life and a new chance, etc. Though I suspect some of them do it for show, I think a lot of them are sincere.

when people are in the sea and a storm comes, and there's no land in sight, they normally realize that there is no God but Allah.

I am glad it was at least left readable. It is a good display for Muslims who come here and are curious, as the most recent posts in it are some pretty aggressive and hateful attacks on atheists (and Christians), replied to in very gentle and kind ways. It reminds of of the Muslim lady who bought the islamophobe a coffee in response to his hate mentioned in another recent post here. I look forward to a day when people don't judge or hate each other based on labels like "Muslim", "Atheist", etc.

[/quote]

do you also look forward to the day when people don't judge each other based on "law abiding citizen" and "criminal"?