hypothetical question about the confrontation

[جوري]

I think homophobia is a catch all phrase with such stringent measures that by same token would turn all homosexuals heterophobic if we follow from their premise. I see absolutely nothing wrong with being averse to the act. I find sodomy revolting, I find two guys doing with each other what should be between man & wife utterly humiliating (for them) and I prefer that people not be defined by their bedroom activities ... and there should be nothing wrong with that.. Why make concessions in our moral compass?

 

[Tyrion]

my answers :
" I find them to be deviant and can never accept the concept of a born homosexual no matter how much it is pushed down our throats, I believe homosexual tendancies can arise due to a combiation of the devil and the desires within and this should be faught not enabled !"

"I would abandon him and kick him out"

"only in an islamic state"




but i tell u, i felt pressure.... and this might be my weak imaan... may Allah strengthen me and guide me.

I think your answers were unnecessarily harsh, and perhaps not the wisest choice of words. I don't really blame your coworkers for being a little put off... Those answers also paint a somewhat disturbing picture of Islam/Muslims (as well as a fairly inaccurate one from what I know) which isn't exactly something to be proud of.

Anyway, here's how I might have answered the three questions:

1) I don't really feel anything special towards them. I treat them as I would anyone else, since people can do what they wish with their lives (within obvious boundaries. For example, I would criticize extreme amounts of lewdness, whether they be from heterosexuals or homosexuals). The only time this may change is within a religious context, like if a fellow Muslim came to me and said he was considering homosexual actions or if homosexuality was being pushed into religious settings. Even then, the issue becomes more about homosexuality and not homosexuals. But yeah, from what I understand non Muslims are generally not expected to follow our rules.

2) I would let them know that such a thing isn't permitted within the religion, and try to make sure they understand that. If they continued to struggle, I would help them in their struggle. If they choose to become openly against the religion in a way that makes it obvious they no longer care, then obviously there might be some friction, but aside from that I don't really know what I'd do. I don't think it's fair to try and answer that question with an absolute statement without having actually been in that situation. It would most likely be very trying for both parties.

3) No.

 

[Tyrion]

Just stick to your answers and leave it at that. If the kafir is a good person then he would accept and respect your opinions. We need to stop caring what people think about us. Do they pay your bills? No.

Some of them sign your checks... ;D

 

[جوري]

Some of them sign your checks..

Try signing for direct deposit then or looking for work where you're master of your domain

 

[dqsunday]

For myself, as a revert if asked these questions I would answer as follows:

"How do you feel about homosexuals?

I am neutral towards this. If they were one of my Brothers and Sisters in Islam I would encourage them to resist these temptations for it is considered unlawful in the eyes of God.

What would you do if your brother/sister became homosexual?

If you mean my biological brother or sister? It would be much the same as above, I would encourage them not to give in to these urges. If they are Muslim then I would tell them much the same thing as I would any other Muslim who feels attraction to the same sex.

Do you believe homosexuals should be killed?

Simple answer, No. For more details I would say if within an Islamic state being caught in a homosexual act is a crime and punishable according to Islamic law. If the homosexual in question fights against his or her urges and does his or her best to live according to the Qur'an, Sunnah and Hadith then they should be treated like anybody else. If they are out right fornicating with the same sex and caught doing it, then they are breaking the law, just as a man and woman doing the same outside of marriage would be breaking the law.

--
I have always been very open minded about the lifestyles of others, long before I learned and embraced Islam. Homosexuality has always been a controversial subject when it comes to religions, not just Islam. In fact I don't know of any religion that openly accepts gay/bisexual/lesbian/transsexuals etc. Nor do I feel this is a disease or a lifestyle picked up due to peer pressure. Some certainly can be, but its a very complex subject. I personally don't feel these people should be prosecuted or tormented in an unfair manner. I do feel they should be modest and keep their activities private as I feel regular heterosexual people should. Islamic law prevents them from engaging in homosexual activities, or marrying so what they do with this limitation as Muslims is up to them and their personal imaan. Allah knows best on what to do with them in the hereafter.

Outside of Islam, I always felt whatever people do, as long as its legal age and consensual its their business. If its against the law then they are breaking the law and if caught must face the consequences.

Earlier somebody mentioned issues people may bring up regarding the marriage between Aisha and the Prophet (salallahu asayliwasalm). If that were to happen in this day and age, it would be considered illegal. Back then, it wasn't out of the ordinary. he may have married her younger than average back then but I am pretty sure (or at least its the impression I have gained from reading the book about the Prophet(salallahu asayliwasalm) by Martin Lings I believe it was) he didn't consummate it till she was older. Either way, all around the world during that time up to probably the 18th century, in most countries, women were married by the age of 12, sometimes earlier. Of course today's standards, it is illegal in most countries, though 14 is still permissible. (in Canada 14 is the legal age of consent. Morally, 18 is more accepted)

 

[Abz2000]

"How do you feel about homosexuals?

i simply tell them that it's considered a deviance like rape etc.
and if they give me that "two sane adults in private not harming anyone else" line, and "freedom",
i ask them why incest is illegal even if the son or daughter is an adult (astaghfirullah).
and since sodomy was a crime here too until very recently, would they consider me bigoted the day after some politician declared incest legal?
is the politician their "god" who's commands they obey rather than the one who created them?

that should have them running around in circles.

What would you do if your brother/sister became homosexual?

i'd consider him/her a deviant just like a someone who practices bestiality, it's unnatural.

Do you believe homosexuals should be killed?

depends on if they repent.

 

[dysphoricrocker]

Salaam.

"How do you feel about homosexuals?

I am against the idea of homosexuality. But if they keep to themselves, then it does not bother me. But if they preach their beliefs and start demanding rights, then i will oppose them.

What would you do if your brother/sister became homosexual?

They won't insyaAllah. But if they do, then slow talk is the way to start. If that fails, i will disown them as my siblings. May Allah forbid that from happening.

Do you believe homosexuals should be killed?

The same way we don't hang rapists and paedophiles(in my country at least), we should not kill homosexuals. We have to guide and teach them, and that is my duty as a Muslim. But if they refuse to accept it, then there is as much as i can do. But accepting them is not a n option.

 

[Tyrion]

But accepting them is not a n option.

This is where a lot of Muslims/Christians/etc seem to err. Accepting a person and accepting an action are two totally different things.

 

[TrueStranger]

I see where you are coming from IbnAbdulHakim. Sometimes it's really frustrating when people want to discuss matters that are absolutely filthy and defies human rationality and morality. Society is morally degrading to levels that will even shock the wild-beasts. I'm unfortunate enough to have a class with some of the most "liberal" minded individuals on earth. They thought a woman walking around bare-chested was acceptable and went as far as encouraging people to "flip" it out in a joking manner. While they were laughing, I was fuming. It's shocking how lightly they take matters pertaining to decency.

You gave them a straight-forth answer. However, your surroundings will always influence your responses. It's not a matter of having a weak faith ( May Allah give us the firmness and the calmness to face those who encourage what is Haraam). You know right from wrong, but as humans we feel threatened and defensive when the overwhelming majority are against us. May Allah increase your knowledge about Islam and surround you with people who have taqwa.


Tyrion, it's difficult to accept people who are encouraging an unacceptable act. Some of these people do not even undertake these actions, yet they blindly encourage vices

 

[Hulk]

"How do you feel about homosexuals?

What would you do if your brother/sister became homosexual?

Do you believe homosexuals should be killed?"

To answer properly we must learn, not from only from shaikh google but more importantly from teachers whom we can sit and talk with. They asked you that question possibly to see if what they "heard" about Islam is true and I think your answer confirmed their "suspicion".

Without proper knowledge your iman can sway like a flower not planted firmly.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ how right you are bro, and I really am blessed to have regular access to such amazing teachers and individuals, so I do hope my answers had the truth which islam holds in them.



as for the people who are saying I have spoken harshly and not taken much consideration in regards to the matter, I only tried to speak that which I believe is the islamic truth of the matter.


if im wrong I will go back to each of those colleagues and tell them I was wrong and tell them the right islamic stance, but I dont at this point think I said anything wrong

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Probably the best answer I've ever heard on this subject by Dr. Sherman Jackson:

 

[glo]

Going back to the OP (I haven't read the entire thread), I don't think it is a bad thing to gauge your audience and to answer accordingly. That may not be 'Shaytan weakening your imaan', but simply be you being sensitive to the people you speak to.

I would suggest that you calmly and factually say what you believe. If you feel that saying "I believe" puts too much focus on yourself and you don't feel comfortable with that, then say "Islam teaches ..."
Say calm and use words which are not inflammatory or likely to raise negative emotions and feelings.

And if you feel that you are 'losing your audience', then don't push your point, just let it go until another time. Remember, you don't have to come away 'the winner'.

Interestingly, and on the subject of homosexuality, I have heard Christians use the argument that they love homosexuals - love them so much that they feel it is their duty to tell them that their behaviour is not condoned by God!
I liked that, because it gave a clear 'I-believe-that-homosexuality-is-wrong-message', but emphasized love and compassion, rather than hatred.

 

[Hulk]

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Answer:



On homosexuality from The Reliance of the Traveller (p17.0):


In more than one place in the Holy Koran, Allah recounts to us the story of Lots people, and how He destroyed them for their wicked practice. There is consensus among both Muslims and the followers of all other religions that sodomy is an enormity. It is even viler and uglier than adultery.

Allah Most High says:

Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress. (26:165-66)

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:
1.May Allah curse him who does what Lots people did.

2.Lesbianism by women is adultery between them.

On fornication from the Reliance of the Traveller (p12.0):

Allah most High says:
1.Approach not fornication, it is surely an indecency and evil as a way.(17:32)

2.The fornicator and the fornicatress, scourge them each a hundred stripes and let no pity for them take you. (24:2)

3.The fornicator shall not wed other than a fornicatress or idolatress. The fornicatress, none shall wed her but a fornicator or idolator. That is unlawful for believers.(24:3)

(p12.2) The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said,


Whoever fornicates or drinks wine, Allah takes his faith from him as a man takes a shirt off over his head.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Hulk]

Thank you for sharing the exerpt bro. I have no disagreements with what is mentioned in The Reliance Of The Traveller and I don't think the two videos I posted as well as Bro Muraad posted disagrees with it either. The excerpt is describing those who "practice" homosexuality.

A person who "practices" homosexuality should be punished under Sharia, the same goes for any fornicator regardless of whether or not the act of fornication was homosexual or not (the topic on sharia would be another thread altogether).

As far as I know it is not mentioned in our religious texts whether or not a person is "born homosexual" or not. What is mentioned is that the act of it is haram. Which means hypothetically if a person is "born gay", he must fight the nafs that attracts him to those of the same gender.

Perhaps when your colleagues asked you that question, you took "homosexual" to mean someone who "practices" it while they meant someone who has gay "feelings". Which is totally understandable as I am sure that as a muslim you have a separate worldview from them. To them having "gay feelings" and "acting upon it" might mean the same thing as they are used to the concept of "you are free to do whatever makes you happy".

We as muslims on the other hand have a different concept of what "makes us happy". We trust in what has been prescribed to us by God even if it is against what we "want". We understand that what we like may not necessarily be good for us while what we dislike might actually be good. Their concept of "freedom" is to be free to do whatever you desire. Our concept of freedom is to submit to God and be free of our worldly desires.

Just my opinion.

 

[Insaanah]

^ they arent the type to take religious texts very seriously. THey dont affiliate themselves that closely with any religion. Most are agnostic and atheist.

These kind of people like scientific facts and statistics perhaps.

Tell them that in Islam, consenting adults also needs God's consent, and He does not give his consent to people practising homosexuality, and that in fact, Islam foretold the spread of diseases amongst such people (HIV/AIDS was first clinically observed amongst homosexuals 30 years ago) over 1430 years ago:

"..if ever lewdness spreads among people till it is regarded as a common open practice, plagues and new diseases which did not exist before will spread among them.." (part of a longer hadeeth narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar and recorded in ibn Maajah and al-Haakim).

Homosexuals accounted for over half of HIV infections in 2006.

Homosexuals accounted for 61% of all new HIV infections in the U.S. in 2009, as well as over half of people living with HIV in 2008.

A common mistake among humans is that if they do not see any negative consequences for their actions, they consider their actions lawful and harmless, but it's been seen in the world that some consequences do not become apparent til years or decades later. A source of superior knowledge can be of tremendous benefit in cases like this, so that one knows not to do the action in the first place. And in Islam God, who is the source of superior knowledge, has told us to refrain from it, and we trust in His Wisdom and obey Him.

Even if AIDS/HIV was not a problem, and even if there were no negative effects on society, what is forbidden is forbidden. It isn't a crime one day and then a practice to be defended the next. In Islam, the goalposts don't change.

It is forbidden the same way that intimacy between a man and a woman is forbidden before marriage and outside of marriage, and intimacy between a man and woman too closely related to marry, is forbidden. Yet no one bats an eyelid about these. The lawful channel in Islam is marriage between a man and woman. Adultery, homosexuality, incest, and any others, are unlawful.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ i kno what your saying is good sis but i dno these days i really dislike having to refer back to science.

I feel like it reduces my conviction to what man is saying... and seriously when the word of God isnt enough to inspire a mans mind but science is... theres something seriously wrong with the world

 

[LauraS]

They even tried to tell me animals are gay LOL, i mean for the love of

I was reading recently about bonobo chimps that use homosexual behaviour to ease tensions and build relationships with other family groups. They use this behaviour rather than fighting.

You won't be able to persuade liberal people the homosexuality is evil any more than they can persuade you it isn't. They probab;y think "for the love of, people can't help how thye feel". :hmm:

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

You won't be able to persuade liberal people the homosexuality is evil any more than they can persuade you it isn't. They probab;y think "for the love of, people can't help how thye feel". :hmm:

hmm your not muslim right?


whats your social circle think of gays? majority accepts theM?