I attended a Catholic mass

[ardianto]

It is a good thing there are no blasphmey laws in your country. You have insulted religious practise.

I don't think Pygo insulted a religious practice. He just told what he has seen. If is is heard like insulting Catholic practice, that's because he didn't understand what the priest was doing.

 

[dusk]

To me, with islamic hijab is quite difficult to look as Christian.

Maybe.

But you could cloth yourself as a nun. With the right colors (black outside & white under) and slight changes that should look exactly the same and still abide by all the islamic rules. ;D

I would only do it during carnivals time otherwise it isn't really sincere.

 

[dusk]

Because as I understand it, christians believe that Jesus' spilt blood only absolves the sins of those who proclaimed He is God, therefore non-christians cannot go to paradise because our inherited sins are not absolved.

I guess the answer to that question depends on who you ask in which denomination.
The people I was taught by (progressive Catholics) they say everybody gets a shot at heaven as long as they live by the peaceful way Jesus wanted. Love your neighbor and offer the other cheek and so on. Embracing Jesus is more meant as embracing the spirit of his teachings not so much the person.
All the more fundamentalist denominations and the reactionary Catholics would put it like you say and argue their way out by I have no clue how. I read some arguments a while back but I don't remember finding them the least bit satisfying. Than again I do not find the basic grasp on reality of people like Ratzinger very satisfying.

Am I correct in my understanding?

With fundi Christians definitely. I couldn't explain any conservative position in any way that makes any sense. After the first sentence I would have a dozen complaints about what doesn't make any sense myself.
religioustolerance .org is a good source I think that compare many of the specific believes.

 

[sister herb]

But you could cloth yourself as a nun. With the right colors (black outside & white under) and slight changes that should look exactly the same and still abide by all the islamic rules. ;D

I would only do it during carnivals time otherwise it isn't really sincere.

Many people in my city actually think I am nun.

;D

 

[sister herb]

They actually think I am Greek Cathoholic Nun. Not Roman Catholic.

Sometimes I am too bored to explain that no muslim.

;D

 

[MustafaMc]

it suddenly occured to me that you might think that Christians don't feel the need to ask for forgiveness or repent of their sins?

Peaceful greetings, glo. I know you don't like to enter into debates, but I am yet confused by the concept of atonement versus forgiveness as I presented in this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134306856-forgiveness-vs-atonement.html#post1440644 There is also the question if a response can be seen as promoting Christianity, but I would appreciate your perspective.

If you commit a specific sin, then my understanding is that Christians believe that Jesus paid the debt and endured the punishment for that and other sins on the cross. All a person has to do is accept that free gift of salvation by believing Jesus is the Son of God and by accepting his death on the cross, burial and resurrection as the only acceptable means of redemption from sin. As a Christian I had often heard songs and sermons to the effect of 'Jesus paid it all' which conveys a sense of payment of sin debt (atonement) and not forgiveness. Forgiveness is recognizing that one has a debt that is too large to ever be paid and then asking the person to whom that debt is owed to have mercy on you and forgive or erase the debt. Atonement is when someone else steps up and pays the debt for you.

Where does a Christian asking for forgiveness coincide with the cross?

 

[glo]

^
Forgive me, Mustafa, for not answering your question.
I see that the thread you quote from is 12 pages long. If nobody could answer your question appropriately then, I doubt that I can now.

As I said before:

I am not into lengthy theological debates. I have had too many of them in this forum and it is not why I am here. If anybody wants to ask further questions, you can do so via PM - but forum rules limit me to what I can say and explain about my faith

I have found that circular debates about our faiths only harden our positions and make us less likely to relate to each other as friends and fellow believers in the same God.
At the same time it would be difficult to talk about my faith without coming in conflict with forum rules.

For those reasons I prefer not to get drawn into deeper discussions. I hope you understand.

God's peace to you.

 

[glo]

Third, I noticed the priest mix two cups of liquid into a third, dip a cracker in it, sing to the cracker, and eat it. He then fed other crackers to the parishioners for the eucharist.

I don't think Pygo insulted a religious practice. He just told what he has seen. If is is heard like insulting Catholic practice, that's because he didn't understand what the priest was doing.

I hadn't noticed Pygo's comment about "singing to the cracker". LOL

To be honest, Pygo does not come across like somebody who isn't fairly well informed about stuff, so I don't assume that he really thinks that Catholics sing to crackers ... ;D

More than likely a case of being a bit tongue-in-cheek. (I hope that's an internationally known expression!)


Pygo, there is a (liberal) Christian website/forum called Ship of Fools.
Amongst many other things they have a section called Mystery Worshipper - where people who have attended a church somewhere can give feed-back and rate the service - from how welcome they were made to feel to how long (or boring) the sermon was to how good the coffee was.
You should put your name forward, because you have a great 'outsider angle'!

 

[Pygoscelis]

To be honest, Pygo does not come across like somebody who isn't fairly well informed about stuff, so I don't assume that he really thinks that Catholics sing to crackers ... ;D

No, no, he's right. I did seriously witness a man singing at a cracker. He was looking right at it and singing with passion. And as I understand it the Eucharist doctirne says that the cracker literally becomes Jesus' flesh and the wine literally becomes his blood. So he thought the cracker was listening to him sing. And then he ate it. Is that wrong? If that is wrong I would like to be set straight because I have had many catholics tell me it is so.

Pygo, there is a (liberal) Christian website/forum called Ship of Fools.
Amongst many other things they have a section called Mystery Worshipper - where people who have attended a church somewhere can give feed-back and rate the service - from how welcome they were made to feel to how long (or boring) the sermon was to how good the coffee was.

That is a brilliant idea. The name seems rather rude though. I'll have to check it out.

 

[MustafaMc]

For those reasons I prefer not to get drawn into deeper discussions. I hope you understand.

Yes, I understand completely and I expected this reply. A simple question with no need for a debate, "Do you understand the distinction I am making between atonement and forgiveness and, if so, is there a real difference here, or not?"

 

[Muhammad]

It seems you need to make more Muslim friends, Pygoscelis, and then we can look forward to hearing how your visit to the Mosque went.

 

[MustafaMc]

It is quite interesting that the opening post by Daldianus on the Belief Corner forum exactly makes the same point I did on the thread I mentioned here earlier.
http://www.beliefcorner.com/showthread.php/451-Atonement-vs-Forgiveness

Quoting Lilly, "Jesus is the sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the whole world. A sacrifice of atonement was needed in order to fulfill justice. Because God has fulfilled justice for the sins of the whole world any of us can come to him and receive forgiveness of sins when we repent and put our trust in him." ... "You mean couldn't God forgive man his wrongdoing without justice being fulfilled? God is just and can be nothing less. God is also merciful and wants to forgive mankind. So he made the way for man to be forgiven and for justice to be upheld. He did this through Christ."... "What conditions are met by man? The only conditions are those God has met due to the fact that he is just. To simply turn a blind eye to wrongdoing is evil. God provided a way for man to be forgiven and for his sins to be atoned for."

Lilly provided the most reasonable explanation and one that is consistent with what I remember from my early years as a Christian in that God is just and therefore requires that sin must be punished. Again, this illustrates the point between atonement and forgiveness that God is incapable of forgiving sin with a clean wipe of the slate as this would be unjust and 'evil' according to Lilly. My understanding is that Jesus' death was the atoning sacrifice that fulfilled God's justice and opened the door for man to seek forgiveness through repentence. The concept of presenting a sacrifice or an atonement before sin can be forgiven is foreign to Islam; however, my understanding is that when we make du'a for forgiveness it is best for us to first praise Allah (swt) with His most beautiful names and attributes before we ask Him for forgiveness.

I respect my Christian friend's reluctance to debate and only wish to clarify my understanding of the Christian perspective on this topic. It is quite troubling to me that I am having trouble understanding the Christian perspective on this issue. I am very nearsighted and it is like I am wearing someone else's glasses now when I try to understand Christian theology.

 

[Amigo]

Forgiveness is recognizing that one has a debt that is too large to ever be paid and then asking the person to whom that debt is owed to have mercy on you and forgive or erase the debt. Atonement is when someone else steps up and pays the debt for you.

Right, it is erasing. But can that person truly erase the debt?

 

[Amigo]

Where does a Christian asking for forgiveness coincide with the cross?

Asking for forgiveness is asking for erasing the cross and all wrongs around it. There is cross in every human's life. A kind of combination of the two crosses (Jesus cross: when we suffer innocently due to the sins of others + repentant thief cross: suffering we accept as just due to our own failings) or the third (unrepentant thief cross: sufferings due to our own sins but we refuse to ask forgiveness). Jesus forgives/erases the sins of the two crosses: he can connect to any possible suffering and the dead (he died to reach the dead) then he can heal all of them.

 

[Riana17]

Asking for forgiveness is asking for erasing the cross and all wrongs around it. There is cross in every human's life. A kind of combination of the two crosses (Jesus cross: when we suffer innocently due to the sins of others + repentant thief cross: suffering we accept as just due to our own failings) or the third (unrepentant thief cross: sufferings due to our own sins but we refuse to ask forgiveness). Jesus forgives/erases the sins of the two crosses: he can connect to any possible suffering and the dead (he died to reach the dead) then he can heal all of them.

Hmmmm

Welcome back ya amigo, long time

as for your reply, you sound like a Priest to me we are glad you are back

 

[Veritas]

So, I visited a cahothilic mass and I noticed a few things that surprised me.

First, I noticed there were no copies of the bible in the pews. There were only song books.

Second, I noticed there was a fold down bench and we were to kneel a lot of the time. That wasn't there in the other christian churches I have been to.

Third, I noticed the priest mix two cups of liquid into a third, dip a cracker in it, sing to the cracker, and eat it. He then fed other crackers to the parishioners for the eucharist.

Fourth, There was a really nice part where he told us all to look around us and shake hands or otherwise say hi to everybody around us. That was a nice surprise.

Fifth, There wasn't really any hate being preached. That was nice to see (or not see).

It is heartening to hear that you attended a Catholic Mass. In Christianity, the Catholic Church, is the "Universal Church ... the "One True Church". It's western arm is the Catholic Church (about 1.2 billion), and its Eastern Arm (about 300 million) is the Orthodox Church.

Re the Bibles, that may have been the church you went to. Bibles are often found in the pews. It is true that the Catholic Church is not a "bible literal" church like certain Protestant sects ... the US Fundamentalist Christians for instance. Scripture is always read out in mass, and examples of Christ like behaviour from saints, the Virgin Mary etc., are often spoken about to give examples how parishioners can follow that behaviour, and "walk in the shoes of Christ".

Yes, Catholic mass is very "up and down" ... there is a lot of kneeling for prayer. Catholics always kneel to pray ... whether at mass, lighting a candle in church (usually in front of a statue of Christ) to pray to God. There is a pattern to Catholic mass, which if you went to mass anywhere in the world, would always be followed.

The Eucharist. This is where we take the body and blood of Christ into our own bodies. To be at one with him. The holy wine (red wine) symbolises his blood. The "host" (a thin wafer) is given to the parishioner (but only if they have been confirmed into the Church) with open palms, the parishioners say "Amen" to the priest who gave him / her the host. Depending on the church, the parishioner can drink the holy wine from the cup ... hygiene though will often see the practice replaced with the host being dipped into the wine.

Drinking / dipping the wine is purely optional ... but a confirmed parishioner will always take the host. The host is placed on the tongue and left to dissolve. It is not chewed or eaten. It is very plain, cardboard like unleavened bread.

The sign of peace. Yes, it is a beautiful part of mass. Catholicism is a church of the people for the people. It promotes peace and love for our fellow man. It is where we welcome our brothers and sisters into our hearts, in the presence of God.

Catholicism does not preach hate. Go to a US Fundamentalist or Evangelical Church if you want that. Catholicism at its most base level promotes as its prime doctrine to consider the needs of other people before oneself, and to be there and to help people when they most need it.

The Christmas mass I attended on Monday, actually preached interfaith bonding with Islam. The homily discussed the story portrayed in Of Gods and Men. The homily wasn't highlighting the eventual murder of French Trappist Monks in Algeria by Islamic militants, but rather the initial bond they formed when injured militants turned up at the monastery seeking medical help from the monks' clinic. The militants entered the monastery with weapons, and were told "this is a house of God, and weapons are not welcomed". A scriptural recitation followed, where the bible and Quran were traded, and Jesus respected as a prophet.

The militants put down their weapons. This occurred by scripture and a shared love of God.

I myself have witnessed some real interfaith discussion and a willingness to make brothers with Catholics. I met brother Scimitar on another message board, and the friendship we formed has turned to us seeing each others as brothers. Real brothers. Catholicism is a faith built on peace and love. The kindness and love I have received has been returned in droves.

You won't find any form of hostility towards islam from the Catholic Church ... rather the opposite ... being a real genuine desire to build bridges and close gaps between Christianity and Islam through a shared love of God.

 

[MustafaMc]

Veritas,I really liked your post. I grew up as a Baptist in the US 'Bible Belt' and can relate that what you wrote is true.

Re the Bibles, that may have been the church you went to. Bibles are often found in the pews. It is true that the Catholic Church is not a "bible literal" church like certain Protestant sects ... the US Fundamentalist Christians for instance. Scripture is always read out in mass, and examples of Christ like behaviour from saints, the Virgin Mary etc., are often spoken about to give examples how parishioners can follow that behaviour, and "walk in the shoes of Christ".

Historically, wasn't the Latin Vulgate read during mass without a literal translation into the language understood by the parishoners? Also, weren't parishoners discouraged from owning translations of the Bible into their language? I like how the Catholic 'sermon' (homily?) is more about following the example of Jesus as compared to worshipping him as 'God Incarnate' among Protestants.

Yes, Catholic mass is very "up and down" ... there is a lot of kneeling for prayer. Catholics always kneel to pray ... whether at mass, lighting a candle in church #usually in front of a statue of Christ# to pray to God. There is a pattern to Catholic mass, which if you went to mass anywhere in the world, would always be followed.

Interesting about the commonality of Catholic worship around the world. Similarly, I can pray alongside Muslims anywhere in the world in the same manner and reciting the same words in Arabic.

Catholicism does not preach hate. Go to a US Fundamentalist or Evangelical Church if you want that. Catholicism at its most base level promotes as its prime doctrine to consider the needs of other people before oneself, and to be there and to help people when they most need it.

Yes, the Protestants/Evangelicals are more intollerant of Muslims, but starangely they hold Jews as God's chosen people and agree with whatever Zionist Israel does in Palestine even though their actions are in conflict with what Jesus taught. What is the Catholic opinion about the state of Israel?

The Christmas mass I attended on Monday, actually preached interfaith bonding with Islam. The homily discussed the story portrayed in Of Gods and Men. The homily wasn't highlighting the eventual murder of French Trappist Monks in Algeria by Islamic militants, but rather the initial bond they formed when injured militants turned up at the monastery seeking medical help from the monks' clinic. The militants entered the monastery with weapons, and were told "this is a house of God, and weapons are not welcomed". A scriptural recitation followed, where the bible and Quran were traded, and Jesus respected as a prophet. The militants put down their weapons. This occurred by scripture and a shared love of God.

I would have liked to attend that mass as well.

I myself have witnessed some real interfaith discussion and a willingness to make brothers with Catholics. I met brother Scimitar on another message board, and the friendship we formed has turned to us seeing each others as brothers. Real brothers. Catholicism is a faith built on peace and love. The kindness and love I have received has been returned in droves.

You won't find any form of hostility towards islam from the Catholic Church ... rather the opposite ... being a real genuine desire to build bridges and close gaps between Christianity and Islam through a shared love of God.

I can certainly appreciate expressions of respect and tolerance between different faiths. I have sincere feelings of affection for some Christians due to my perceptions of their love for God and their fellow human beings despite cultural, racial, national and religious differences. I hope it does not offend you that beyond that level I am hesitant to feel they are my brothers and sisters in the same manner as I do Muslims who share my faith. That is due to my perception of Christian association of Jesus with God which I see as a most grievous sin. I can appreciate efforts at interfaith dialog to a point due to mutual respect and tolerance, but I believe ultimately it pushes us to 'water down' and compromise on our essential beliefs. For example, I agree with "Jesus respected as a prophet", but I believe that you hold certain additional beliefs about him that no Muslim can accept. I can see the benefit to mutual humanitarian efforts if religion can be left out of these outreach efforts.

 

[Veritas]

Thank you for the post Mustafa. I will address your comments when I'm in a pc. Too much tapping on my phone!
I will address your comment on brothers. Scimitar and I struck up a friendship on another board. We are similar people, with each of us having a real fire in our bellies. That friendship grew and firmed. We have shared an awful lot with each either.

I understand that Moslems and Christians will not see each other in the same light in a religious sense. For personal reasons which I won't delve into I asked scimitar if we could see each other as actual brothers in a family sense ... blood brothers ... understanding that it wouldn't be in a religious context.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Abz2000]

I went to one abt 2004-2005, I recited surah fatihah when they stood up and did their prayers to a certain person they considered to be "god", there was a lot of cheering and clapping when the Easter egg chocs were handed out to the kids, it was interesting but the looming idol of a prophet over the head was quite intimidating,
and though I know it's meant to be serious, this verse I randomly opened from the Quran made me smile:

وَما كانَ صَلاتُهُم عِندَ البَيتِ إِلّا مُكاءً وَتَصدِيَةً ۚ فَذوقُوا العَذابَ بِما كُنتُم تَكفُرونَ

Their prayer at the House (of Allah) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), \"Taste ye the chastisement because ye blasphemed.\"

Quran 8:35

 

[MustafaMc]

I asked scimitar if we could see each other as actual brothers in a family sense ... blood brothers ... understanding that it wouldn't be in a religious context.

Veritas, I meant no offense. I hope my comments about feeling affection for some Christians, including glo and Eric H, helps you understand my position. There are various levels of emotional intimacy between people and, for those who are deeply religious, a shared faith is essential. Even a husband and wife or father and son of different faiths lack in this arena if religion is important to at least one of them. As a Muslim I have an obligation to maintain the ties of the womb, but there is something lacking when family members do not share what I consider to be an essential element of my personal identity. I can respect and appreciate you and other Christians for the apparent sincerity of your faith, but I have a hard time feeling the closeness I do to other Muslims. I went on hajj to Mecca in 2010 and I met people from all over the world. Although I am an American and did not attempt to hide that fact, I felt accepted by and close to the people I met even a single time. In contrast, I feel a distance with my family and coworkers who are not Muslims.