I have a few questions

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Makes sense. Except i'm still having a problem with this Isaac Ishamel thing.

According to the Torah, Isaac was the one whom Abraham's offspring would be reconed.

I'm not saying Ishmael wasnt blessed, for God did bless him and he had 12 tribes under him.

But according to the Torah and the Bible it was through Isaac that the covenant was made, that Abraham's offspring would be known, and the lineage of Jesus was made.

He was also the son promised to Sarah and Abraham - Ishmael was not the one.

So, i understand what you are saying, but i have to ask. Since the Torah predates the Quran, wouldent it be more accurate? Or in this case, does the Quran correct the Torah through a revelation?
 
actually according to Jewish Laws the rights of inheritance whether of a covenant or otherwise, goes to the first born.. And the first son of Abraham PBUH and the one who was taken for the sacrifice is Ishmael.. Issac wasn't even born at the time.. why do you think Sara (P) wanted Hagar taken else where? she was barren!.. it was later that she came to conceive Abraham received gladtiding of Issac when Sara was of very old age... that is if we are to go purely by history not theology...
I hope that helps... I am sure someone here can offer you some sources, it is 1.18Am where I am not and can't dedicate to this with any justice...but hope it was of help?
peace and welcome to LI
 
As having to be of the tribe of Judah to be Jewish, I don't think that it is necessary. Yes, I understand that this is where we generally think of the term as coming from (though if one reads the posts in the "ask a Jew" thread, I believe I read a different answer there about that a few months back). But that does not take into account that today we have people who are of the tribe of Benjamin (and this would included King David) and of the tribe of Levi (for example all those with the last name of Cohen) who are also considered Jews. So, the term "Jew", as used today, includes more than just the descendants of Judah.

well we can legitimately claim prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) as a Muslim, because 'Muslim' means 'one who has submitted to the will of the One True God'. And certainly the Jews may claim him as a ancestor, but we would dispute about whether the prophet was as partial as their scriptures make him out to be, and abandoned his teenage son from a 'slave-girl' because a superior son had been born to him from his wife.

peace to you
 
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Makes sense. Except i'm still having a problem with this Isaac Ishamel thing.

According to the Torah, Isaac was the one whom Abraham's offspring would be reconed.

I'm not saying Ishmael wasnt blessed, for God did bless him and he had 12 tribes under him.

But according to the Torah and the Bible it was through Isaac that the covenant was made, that Abraham's offspring would be known, and the lineage of Jesus was made.

He was also the son promised to Sarah and Abraham - Ishmael was not the one.

So, i understand what you are saying, but i have to ask. Since the Torah predates the Quran, wouldent it be more accurate? Or in this case, does the Quran correct the Torah through a revelation?

as you correctly guessed, we do believe that the torah was corrupted and so the qur'anic version of events is the correct one, and that God will protect the qur'an from corruption because it is the final scripture to stand for all time and for all humanity.

unfortunately the bible stories of Ishmael/Isaac portray a very partial God which goes against the Islamic understanding of God. We do believe that human hands altered these scriptures and deliberately tried to exclude Ishmael from any 'spiritual' inheritence so to speak. still, you can see that the covenant was made before the birth of Isaac and the circumcision, which was a sign of that covenant, was performed by Abraham upon Ishmael. his descendants kept faith with that and always circumcised their offspring.

If you read the OT scriptures relating to Ishmael you will find some odd things. for example, Ishmael would have been at least 16 when he and his mother were supposedly cast out (according to the bible Abraham pbuh was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born, and Ishmael was cast out when Isaac was weaned). and yet in Genesis 21:14 when they were cast out Hagar is supposed to have carried her son. and a few verses later when she is in despair of thirst she 'threw him under a bush'! that's not a strapping lad, it's a baby. and indeed we Muslims do believe that when Ishmael was still a babe Abraham pbuh took them away, to Mecca, and they established a settlement there. Also, it clearly states in the bible that when Prophet Abraham died he was buried by both of his sons, Ishmael and Isaac.

So Sarah's rather mean and snobbish demand to 'cast out this bondwoman and her son' was not so effective, as there must have been communication between Ishmael and Abraham (peace be upon them both) for Ishmael to know that his father was dying and return to bury him.#

consider this: christians always condemn the fact that Islam allows polygamy, and find it distasteful that God would permit more than one wife in decent, dignified marriage in which each wife MUST be treated equally. and then, they tell us that the great patriarch and 'friend of God' Abraham pbuh was allowed by God to sleep with his slave-girl in order to get a son, and then commanded by God to throw them both out because a new, superior son had been born to his 'superior' wife and the inferior son doesn't count any more (won't that resound with all those poor kids whose fathers go on to have 'new' families after divorcing their first wives - somehow I would expect God to be better than them). and that is the moral high ground which the Christians stand upon?

In the bible, when Isaac is going to be sacrificed there is a repetition of 'take your son, your ONLY son, whom you so love, Isaac' (such detailed instructions for an only son!). why is it emphasised 'your ONLY son?' not 'your son Isaac whom you so love'? I believe it's possible that God left it there to show us the error of the copyists in ascribing the sacrifice to Isaac. at no time was Isaac the 'only son'. Ishmael was born first and for 14 years he was the 'only son' of Abraham pbuh. At no time was Isaac the ONLY son of his father. And why should Ishmael be so thoroughly disowned that God himself denies him his father, by calling Isaac 'Abraham's only son'? was it because he was the son of a slave woman? does God despise a person for their lineage?

anyway, must get back to my kids now. peace to you!
 
Here's something amazing, which will insha Allaah (God willing) clarify alot of things while placing them into context. :)
“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?’ But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jeremiah 8:8).


We are told in Genesis 22:2: “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” At no time during the lifetime of Isaac (upon whom be peace) was he ever the “only son” of Abraham. Did “God” forget about Ishmael, Isaac’s brother who was fourteen years his senior?


Christians will retort that God only intended the son Abraham “loved,” the implication being that Abraham hated Ishmael. Although we can never believe such nonsense, what does the Law say about this?

In Deuteronomy 21:15-17 we read: “If a man has two wives, one loved and the other unloved, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the unloved, and if the firstborn son is of her who is unloved, then it shall be, on the day of bequeaths his possessions to his sons, that he must not bestow firstborn status on the son of the loved wife in preference to the son of the unloved, the true firstborn. But he shall acknowledge the son of the unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.”


Therefore, it matters not whether Abraham loved Ishmael, he IS the first-born. It was none other than the evil pen of a scribe who changed the name “Ishmael” to “Isaac” in Genesis 22:2. Truly Allah has told us: “Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places…” (Qur’an 4:46).

“But Ishmael was the illegitimate son of a bondswoman!” the Christian will shout. Tell him to consider the following passage: “Then Sarah, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his WIFE, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. So Hagar bore Abram a SON; and Abram named his SON, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram” (Genesis 16:3, 15-16).



Genesis 15 reveals to us two vital stipulations in the covenant between God and the chosen child of Abraham. It reads: “Then He (God) brought him (Abraham) outside and said, ‘Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.’ And he said to him, (1) ‘So shall your descendants be.’ On the same day, the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, (2) ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates’” (Genesis 15:5, 18.).

The vast majority of land between the two great rivers constitutes the Arabian desert and peninsula. This region was never conquered by the Children of Israel, but immediately upon the emergence of Muhammad and the Muslims. It was only with the appearance of the Messenger of the Covenant Muhammad (Malachi 3) that all idolatry was rooted out of these lands promised to the covenant progeny of Abraham. Jewish history demonstrates the obvious ineptness of the Children of Jacob to abolish the heathen worship of statues in Palestine and even in their very Temple!

Karen Armstrong, author of the popular book A History of God remarks: “We have seen that it took the ancient Israelites some 700 years to break with their old religious allegiances and accept monotheism, but Muhammad managed to help the Arabs achieve this difficult transition in a mere 23 years” (page 146).



The Sign of God’s covenant was circumcision. In Genesis 17:9, 11 God tells Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations…and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.”

In verse 26 we are told: “That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael.” So far we have been told that:


1) Ishmael is Abraham’s first-born son.
2) Hagar is Abraham’s lawfully wedded wife.
3) The covenant seed will be as numerous as the stars.
4) The covenant seed will be given the land between the Nile and Euphrates Rivers.
5) Ishmael was Abraham’s only son and seed for fourteen years.
6) Circumcision is the symbol of God’s covenant.
7) Ishmael was circumcised with his father on the same day to fulfill the covenant with the flesh of their foreskins.
NONE of the above have anything to do with Isaac!


The most obvious piece of Jewish scribal deception, however, occurs in Genesis 21:

“Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him…So the child grew up and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day Isaac was weaned. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing (playing with Isaac, REB version).

Therefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondswoman with her son; for the son of this bondswoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac’…So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away (he set the child on her shoulder, REB version).

Then she departed and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs. Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, ‘Let me not see the death of the boy.’ So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad (God heard the child crying, REB version).


Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, ‘What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand (in your hand), for I will make him a great nation. Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink.” – Genesis 21:5-19.

It is very clear from the text that we are given the profile of an infant here and not that of a seventeen-year old man. In Jewish custom, a child (Isaac) is weaned after three years. This would have made Ishmael seventeen (Remember that Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born, Gen. 16:16, 21:5). Can you imagine a grown man sitting on Hagar’s shoulder, CRYING beneath a shrub for water, and then being LIFTED UP and FED by his mother? It is very interesting to note that although Ishmael is referenced in no less than eleven places in this passage, he is never addressed by name.

It seems as if the chronologies of these events have been deliberately manipulated in order to give the reader the impression that Ishmael was banished due to a conflict between him and Isaac. In actuality, the nameless infant would not know his younger sibling until many years later. According to Islam, Ishmael and his mother were never banished at all. Abraham was told by God to leave them in the wilderness as a sign of his faith that God would fulfill His covenant under any circumstances. This was where Ishmael grew up and continued his father's work.



According to Genesis 16:10-11, God called him “Ishmael” because He heard Hagar crying after she ran away from Sarah. This concocted story serves as a clever way for the rabbinical scribes to explain the meaning of Ishmael’s name, meaning “God heard,” while also making the point that Hagar and her son are inferior to Sarah. It is possible, however, that the child was not named until after Genesis 21:5-19 was written and “God heard” (verse 17) the infant child Ishmael crying while he and his mother settled in Baca, “the weeping valley” (Psalm 84:6; Qur’an 3:96), and not Beersheba as the Bible states. Another possibility is that God named him Ishmael because He had heard the prayer of Abraham for a son to continue his legacy. Why exactly Ishmael’s name is not mentioned in Genesis 21:5-19 remains a mystery.

We are also told in Genesis 25:9 that in the spirit of brotherhood, both sons of Abraham buried their father. From this we can also conclude that the story given in Genesis 16:10 in which God tells Hagar that she must “submit herself under Sarah’s hand,” and Ishmael is called a “wild ass of a man,” are undoubtedly forgeries penned by the Jewish rabbis and scribes in order to discredit the God-given rights of Ishmael, the ancestor of Muhammad -- The Messenger of God (salallau ‘alayhi wa sallam).


Source:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/2005/03...-or-isaac.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/12447-post24.html
 
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actually according to Jewish Laws the rights of inheritance whether of a covenant or otherwise, goes to the first born.. And the first son of Abraham PBUH and the one who was taken for the sacrifice is Ishmael.. Issac wasn't even born at the time.. why do you think Sara (P) wanted Hagar taken else where? she was barren!.. it was later that she came to conceive Abraham received gladtiding of Issac when Sara was of very old age... that is if we are to go purely by history not theology...
I hope that helps... I am sure someone here can offer you some sources, it is 1.18Am where I am not and can't dedicate to this with any justice...but hope it was of help?
peace and welcome to LI

But Ishmael wasnt the one promised to Abraham, it was Isaac - since Sarah was his mom.
 
okay, so you answered my questions. You believe the Torah was corrupted, thats all i really need to know, thanks.
 
But Ishmael wasnt the one promised to Abraham, it was Isaac - since Sarah was his mom.
what are you basing your opinion on? history or biblical errors? Book of Jeremiah, Chapter 8, Verse 8 it says this
8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

You have to admit there is a biblical error on either front..

Saying your only son, is wrong which ever way you slice it, you'll get only Ishmael out of the formula-- 1- Abraham has two sons so how can it be take your only son?.. 2- if indeed we are to go by take your only son, then the son would have been Ishmael on the account Issac wasn't even born... here is something written here sometime ago by a member--

Who had the covenant? Ishmael or Isaac?

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The story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (May the mercy and blessings of Allah be on them all) is found in the Bible, much skewed and corrupted from the pure Islamic version. The reason this is so is because the book of Genesis, undoubtedly written by some Jewish Rabbi of the past would certainly be biased in his understanding of history between the two forefathers. There would be in him, whoever he was, the desire to paint his own ancestry, that is the seed of Isaac, in the brightest of colors, whereby either purposely or inadvertently condemning the rival (I.e. Ishmael) as the negative end of the spectrum. In other words, a Jew most certainly wrote Genesis, so Isaac, the father of the Jews and Abraham’s son, is presented in this blessed light, and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs is whereby presented in somewhat dark euphemisms, and foisted on him is the subtle racism and condescending attitude of the author.
This being said, it is evident that my own assumptions are true, because of the many gaps and inconsistencies which are clues left to us by the True and Almighty God in the Biblical account, which point us in the direction of the truth (I.E. of the Islamic version.)

1. Abraham (saas) was told by God that a Great Nation would come from him. (Genesis 12:2-3)

2. Sarah, Abraham’s wife doesn’t bear children at first. (Genesis 16:1)

3. Sarah whereby allowed Abraham to MARRY Hagar (Genesis 16:3) -This defeats the evangelical claim that Ishmael was illegitamite. Hagar conceives Ishmael. (genesis 16:4)

4. Later Sarah has Isaac. (Genesis 21:2)

So far so good. The story here is quite clear. A Prophecy for a great nation was said to come from Abraham. After Sarah seemingly cannot conceive, Hagar becomes Abraham’s second wife and conceives Ishmael. Later Sarah actually does conceive and has Isaac.

Biblical points which hold true to the Islamic perception of Ishmael and the pure lineage of Muhammad (saas):

1. Ishmael was Abraham’s first son. (Genesis 16:4)

2. God said that Hagar’s seed would be multiplied exceedingly. (Genesis 16:10)

3. God said Ishmael was blessed! (Genesis 17:20)

4. Ishmael is clearly called ‘Abraham’s seed’ by God. (Genesis 21:13)

4. God repeats His promise to make Ishmael a great nation FIVE TIMES! (Genesis 15:4) (Genesis 16:10) (Genesis 17:20) (Genesis 21:13) (Genesis 21:18)


From here the Islamic version and the Biblical account part ways. The Muslim holds that it was in fact Ishmael who had the covenant and not Isaac, whereas the bible states the opposite. The Muslim holds that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and again, the Bible states the opposite. The Muslim version states that both Isaac and Ishmael were pure blameless children of Abraham, both revered, whereas in the Biblical account, Isaac is revered and Ishmael is seen as a mean-spirited outcast. Let us review the shameful and undoubtedly corrupted view of Ishmael in the Bible:

1. Ishmael is called a ‘wild donkey of a man’: (Genesis 16:12)
2. Ishmael and his descendants are going to be known as troublemakers (Genesis 16:12)
3. Ishmael is considered illegitamite (This is a Christian claim which no Bible verse supports.)
4. Ishmael makes fun of Isaac and teases him: (Genesis 21:9)
5. Ishmael and his mother are cast out from Abrahams’ family (Genesis 21:10)

Now let us lay these preposterous and slanderous claims to rest.

Ishmael a wild donkey of a man?

This is where it becomes evident that the prejudice of the author seeps through. The Christian must remember that the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted, and history attests this, especially that of the Old Testament. God himself attests this in the Old Testament, saying, "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.” (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8) -So it is admitted within the Bible itself, that the Old Testament is corrupted. No independent scholar accepts the preposterous view that the first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses as evangelicals claim. This indeed would be quite impossible because otherwise Moses refers to himself in the third person and even writes about his own death and the month that follows it.
Therefore, if the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted (Not wrong, but not always right either) then it is very well possible, from this viewpoint that the entire story of Ishmael and Isaac is skewed, handled malisciously from the pen of some overzealous rabbi who could not ignore fully his own prejudice and wishes, but yet also could not ignore fully the facts of history, being that both Ishmael and Isaac were blessed, revered and of highly esteemed moral character. Starting from this point we can see through the authors slanders and see to the truth, and that is that this particular verse, that is the verse of Ishmael being a ‘wild donkey’ of a man is an overly obvious forgery, and opinion of whoever the mildly racist author of this book is. –And his intent is quite clear. He wants to prove that the lineage of the Jews is pure, and that no non-jew could ever partake in the pure lineage of Abraham. This is undoubtedly the authors intention, because he goes to great lengths to ‘prove’ it. Consider the ‘all-to-convenient’ verbiage of Sarah as interjected by the author: “Wherefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondwoman and her son: For the son of a bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.’” (21:10).
As to the authors intention to show that the blood and lineage of the Jewish people is untainted, consider the fact that according to the Bible, Abraham and Sarah were brother and Sister! (Genesis 20:12.) This same author is the one who insulted the Prophet Lot by saying he had an incestuous drunken relationship with his two daughters, (Genesis 19:36) And Jacob was married to two sisters at the same time: (Genesis 29:28). The intention is clear, that the author of Genesis is either a pervert obsessed with incest, or he slanders honorable prophets with false stories of Incest in order to show that the blood of Isaac and his descendants (The Jews) is pure. It is for this reason the author feels the need to slander Ishmael and foist on him the false story of being ‘cast out’ of the family of Abraham. –It is also clearly, based on the evidence, a big lie. Ishmael was not a wild donkey of a man, but the author of Genesis sure was!

Ishmael and his descendants will ‘be against all men?’


The Bible says of Ishmael: “…his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” (Genesis 16:12)

In recent times this is probably the most oft-repeated verse against Ishmael and the Muslims used by Christians to prove a plethora of points. All one needs to do is point to the news to see that seemingly Ishmael’s seed truly is ‘against all men’ and ‘all men are against him.’ It is, to them, proof positive that the Bible is the word of God.
But there is a problem with this theory, and that is quite simply that only recently could this be applied. It wasn’t until the decline of the Ottomon Empire in the 1700’s that the Islamic world experienced a regression leading to a downward spiral of corruption, hopelessness, and violence.
One need not point out the fact that the oldest and indeed one of the first colleges on earth was founded by Muslims and is still on the earth today (Al-Azhar.) It is evident that whilst Europe was sunk in the dark ages, the civilized Muslims revived the learning of Aristotle and Plato, who otherwise would have been forgotten. There was a time when Baghdad, for example, was called, ‘The greatest city on earth.’ -And this title was given it by European scholars. Was it because the Arabs of Baghdad were mindless killers against all men? Of course not! It was because they were civilized learners who enjoyed a thriving economy! In fact, it was the Muslims who saved the Christians in their lands from the conquests of invaders, and it was the Turkish Muslims who later protected the Jews who fled persecution from Spain. Was it not the Muslim Salahaddin who granted all Christians in Jerusalem amnesty despite that fact that when Muslims were run out of Jerusalem years earlier the Christians boiled Muslim children alive in pots?
So there is well over a thousand years of the Muslim empire (now known as the Golden age of Islam) in which this whimsical sentence in the Bible was utterly false, and any attempt to apply it to Muslims would be deemed laughable by even the Christians! So what is more logical? To say this verse is true, when it has only been true for the past 100 years at best, which represents not even a glimmer in the existence of Islam, or to say that this is the interjection of some ancient Jew who had, as seen above, his own wicked intentions?

Ishmael is considered illegitimite?

This one I really don’t get. The Bible clearly states that Hagar and Abraham were married. (Genesis 16:3) Abraham is also spoken of in highly respected terms in the Bible? How is it that this highly respected Prophet had a child with a woman whom he was married to, and by the logic of some evangelicals this = illigetamite?
Of course not! So how can this be deemed an instance with which to judge Ishmael and say he was therefore excluded from the covenant? Based on what we have seen so far, we need not even address the last two biblical accounts of Ishmael teasing Isaac and whereby being cast out, as this is another obvious forgery by the baised author, whoever he was.

The Bible Had Ishmael and Isaac Confused!

The most common question to be asked by the Christian then is, how can the Muslims believe that Ishmael was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and that Ishmael got the covenant, when the Bible clearly states otherwise? Well, not to beat a dead horse, but the Muslim view of the Bible is that it is corrupted. So automatically, any story which contradicts Islamic teachings we view with skepticism. As seen already, the author of Genesis, where we find the account of Ishmael and Isaac, is also extremely baised. These facts alone are a red flag to the logical thinkers that just to accept this story as 100% authentic as it is presented in the Bible would be a great error.
With that being said, let us examine the story in the Bible again, and show that the author made some grave errors in his writing which proves that Ishmael and Isaac were confused:

The Bible states that Abraham was 99 years old when Ishmael was circumcised. Ishmael was 13 at the time. (Genesis 17:24-27)

Exactly one year later Isaac is born. (Genesis 21:4-5) So if Abraham was 99 when Ishmael was circumcised a year earlier, that would mean when Isaac is born, he is 100 years old, and Ishmael is 14.

Then comes the story of the sacrifice in the Bible: In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.

Consider when Ishmael is cast out with Hagar into the desert in Genesis 21. What are the descriptions of Ishmael? Pay close attention to the following descriptions:

A. Ishmael is tucked under shrubs (Genesis 21:15)
B. He is called a ‘lad’ (Genesis 21:18, 20)
C. Hagar holds Ishmael in ONE HAND (Genesis 21:18)

Clearly the author is referring to an infant. But Ishmael is 14 at the time, how would he be tucked under shrubs and held in one hand of a weak woman who was dying of thirst? Why is he called a lad? Would this not more aptly apply to the infant Isaac who was only a year old and not to Ishmael who is a teenager?

peace!
 
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mmm...... u seem really interesting, after reading the discussion, it seems as though u know alot. are u a christian, a jew or???..... and know that you have the answer to ur questions, whats ur veiw on islaam?
 
I am a Christian. My view on Islam is that it is by far the least laughable of all the religions i have studied other than Christianity. All of you guys seem genuienly nice.

What you guys say makes sense only if you dont believe in the Torah. If you do believe in the Torah then you know the penalty of sin is eternal death, and the only substitute for it is by sacrificing life. And this, in my opinion, makes sense.

However, in Islam, all you have to do is be repentent and ask for forgivness correct? And that just doesnt settle with me too well.

As a Christian i believe God sent His one and only Son as a living sacrifice to destroy the power sin holds over anyone who believes in Him.

You guys dont believe He was crucified. But you do believe there was talk of crucifying Him. And then we have four gospels that say He was crucified. So this just doesnt make sense to me. It would seem obvious that Jesus was crucified and did indeed fulfill the prophecy given in Isaiah 53.

You make it sound like He wussed out and went back to heaven...only to return AGAIN as the Messiah.

In the end, i believe you serve the same God I serve, i just feel there is some terrible miscomunication about Jesus the Christ.
 
Can anyone sumarize for me the Islamic story of Ishmael? Other than the suggestion that it was Ishmael rather than Issac that Abraham took to offer as a sacrifice, but God spared the child, what else is told of either of them in the Qur'an or the Hadith?

Several times, from several different posters, I have heard Muslims express concern that Ishmael was the first-born son and therefore......What?
....I haven't been really able to tell what it is that people are trying to say rightfully falls to Ishmael other than the privileges of being the recognized first-born son. I know of no Jew or Christian that disputes that Ishmael was Abraham's oldest son.

The covenant that Jews and Christians speak of God making with Abraham has nothing to do with being the first-born, but of being the child that God promised to Abraham that he would have through Sarah. So what is the point of Ishmael being the first-born? What is changed by recognizing that?
 
Salaam/peace;

I have heard Muslims express concern that Ishmael was the first-born son and therefore......What?
.


therefore the blessed Prophet (p) had right over the holy land :sunny: :D



A Holy Land for Whom?

http://theislampath.com/smf/index.php?topic=449.msg1349#msg1349

Useful Links:


The Promised Land



Palestine in Focus



Was the Prophet Unjust to the Jews?



Muslim View of Jews and Christians



Jews, Zionists, and Israelis



http://discover.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1172500526343&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE


 
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Can anyone sumarize for me the Islamic story of Ishmael? Other than the suggestion that it was Ishmael rather than Issac that Abraham took to offer as a sacrifice, but God spared the child, what else is told of either of them in the Qur'an or the Hadith?

Several times, from several different posters, I have heard Muslims express concern that Ishmael was the first-born son and therefore......What?
....I haven't been really able to tell what it is that people are trying to say rightfully falls to Ishmael other than the privileges of being the recognized first-born son. I know of no Jew or Christian that disputes that Ishmael was Abraham's oldest son.

The covenant that Jews and Christians speak of God making with Abraham has nothing to do with being the first-born, but of being the child that God promised to Abraham that he would have through Sarah. So what is the point of Ishmael being the first-born? What is changed by recognizing that?


I think it is legitimate to point out that according to the bible Ishmael is cast out and disinherited, and the scribes drive home the point that he and his descendents have no part in the spiritual inheritance of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) either. so he is quite a despised person, notwithstanding God's promise to grant him a great number of descendants.

Why would anyone have a problem with that? well, for a start it falls short of a human standard of basic decency, never mind divine grace. nowhere in the bible is it suggested that Ishmael was cast out and disinherited because he was evil or was deserving in any way of such harsh treatment - it was instigated by Sarah's petty jealousy on behalf of her son and portrayed as a kind of snobbishness that Ishmael, although a son of Abraham pbuh, was also a son of a slave and therefore inferior. the idea that God would condone this kind of thinking (which is implicit in the scriptures) is amazing.

Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy, the firstborn is owed a double portion of inheritance, no matter whether his mother is despised or not. 'For (the firstborn) is the beginning of his strength.' Elsewhere in the Torah Israel (the Israelites) are called by God 'my son, my firstborn son'. And when God punished the Egyptians he struck down their firstborn sons. To be the firstborn son is an honourable distinction elsewhere in the bible, so perhaps that is why Muslims feel it is worth mentioning.

as for the story of Ishmael, I'm afraid I don't have much time but I can tell you that he was brought as a baby to the valley of Mecca by Hagar and Abraham pbuh, who left them there to establish a settlement but returned regularly and when Ishmael was old enough they rebuilt the Ka'aba together (it had originally been built by Adam pbuh but evidently had disappeared). as stated in the bible, Ishmael was sufficiently close to his father's heart that he was informed of Abraham's pbuh final illness and together with his brother Isaac he buried him. Which fact jars a bit when you read it first because up till then the bible tell us a story of a son cast out and disinherited - I remember the first time I read it as a Christian I was startled and actually thought 'how did he get back into the story? I thought he was long gone!'. Did Abraham have a change of heart? How did he know where to find Ishmael? We are not told.

I hope this answers your question about the firstborn issue, sorry if it's all a bit garbled I'm in a rush!

peace
 
Salaam/peace;

therefore the blessed Prophet (p) had right over the holy land :sunny: :D

After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land -- the article stated very specifically that it had nothing to do with ethnicity, but piety.

I also fail to see how that would be relevant today then. Some Muslims are pious, but not all. The same could be said of some Jews and some Christians. So, if that is the standard, the Holy land should have no political leadership, but a place settled by God's people of all lands and beliefs who truly seek to live righteous lives.
 
I think it is legitimate to point out that according to the bible Ishmael is cast out and disinherited, and the scribes drive home the point that he and his descendents have no part in the spiritual inheritance of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) either. so he is quite a despised person, notwithstanding God's promise to grant him a great number of descendants.

Why would anyone have a problem with that? well, for a start it falls short of a human standard of basic decency, never mind divine grace. nowhere in the bible is it suggested that Ishmael was cast out and disinherited because he was evil or was deserving in any way of such harsh treatment - it was instigated by Sarah's petty jealousy on behalf of her son and portrayed as a kind of snobbishness that Ishmael, although a son of Abraham pbuh, was also a son of a slave and therefore inferior. the idea that God would condone this kind of thinking (which is implicit in the scriptures) is amazing.

Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy, the firstborn is owed a double portion of inheritance, no matter whether his mother is despised or not. 'For (the firstborn) is the beginning of his strength.' Elsewhere in the Torah Israel (the Israelites) are called by God 'my son, my firstborn son'. And when God punished the Egyptians he struck down their firstborn sons. To be the firstborn son is an honourable distinction elsewhere in the bible, so perhaps that is why Muslims feel it is worth mentioning.

as for the story of Ishmael, I'm afraid I don't have much time but I can tell you that he was brought as a baby to the valley of Mecca by Hagar and Abraham pbuh, who left them there to establish a settlement but returned regularly and when Ishmael was old enough they rebuilt the Ka'aba together (it had originally been built by Adam pbuh but evidently had disappeared). as stated in the bible, Ishmael was sufficiently close to his father's heart that he was informed of Abraham's pbuh final illness and together with his brother Isaac he buried him. Which fact jars a bit when you read it first because up till then the bible tell us a story of a son cast out and disinherited - I remember the first time I read it as a Christian I was startled and actually thought 'how did he get back into the story? I thought he was long gone!'. Did Abraham have a change of heart? How did he know where to find Ishmael? We are not told.

I hope this answers your question about the firstborn issue, sorry if it's all a bit garbled I'm in a rush!

peace

Thank-you for filling in some of the blanks. So, you view that Ishmael should get a double portion. And if one looks at the landmass that Ishmael's descendants are spread over, verses those of Isaac, does it not appear that they have that and more?

Do Muslims, (whether they be descendants of Ishmael or not) view as true or false that God made a special covenant with the son of Abraham through Sarah? Is this significant?
 
Salaam/peace;


Grace Seeker :After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land --

In short : Jewish & Christians holy books tell them that First born son has right over dad’s property ( will get double portion than his younger bro ).



It does not matter if the husband loves this son’s mom or not. So , will u pl. tell me why many ( if not most ) Jewish & Christians think Prophet Ismail (p) had no right over there ?



Some Muslims are pious, but not all
Yes . …may be , that’s the reason Muslims are oppressed in the holy land :(



We won’t get back our right there till we become good Muslims.

if one looks at the landmass that Ishmael's descendants are spread over, verses those of Isaac, does it not appear that they have that and more?



Are u saying that Muslims own more land there than the Jewish people ? If yes , then it’s the first time I heard about it.



I always read/ learnt even from the non-Muslim sources that Zionists are grabbing land there from Muslims.




Do Muslims, (whether they be descendants of Ishmael or not) view as true or false that God made a special covenant with the son of Abraham through Sarah?






I don’t think there is any such verse in holy Quran. Normally Muslims respect all Prophets ( pbut ) including Prophet Isaac / Izak (pbuh).
 
Salaam/peace;


Israel And Arabs : Conflict or Conciliation?

--late Ahmed Deedat


I have read the book ...did not see the video ..supposed to be interesting.

The Jews have been colonising arab land and brain washing the Christian world by telling them that God promised this land for us.


This lecture is made to clarify most points of views on this topic.

http://www.archive.org/details/IPCIIsraelAndArabsConflictorConciliation

another link:

default-3.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmpL...th.com/smf/index.php?topic=1309.new;topicseen



comments of viewers:


SLAUGHTERING PALESTINIANS AT A RATIO OF "8 to 1" AND THEN CLAIMING YOU ARE THE VICTIM` OF TERRORISM AND ANTI~SEMITISM IS SIMPLY LAUGHABLE BY ANY RATIONAL, LOGIC, RELIGION, OR CREED!


NO EXCUSES` ARE CREDIBLE` FOR THESE LEVELS OF TERRORISM.

NOT EVEN THE JEWISH HOLY TORAH ALLOWS KILL~ING BEYOND AN EYE FOR AN EYE!
 
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Salaam/peace;


Grace Seeker :After reading your links, I fail to see the connection between Ishmael and the Prophet having right over the Holy land

In short : Jewish & Christians holy books tell them that First born son has right over dad’s property ( will get double portion than his younger bro ).



It does not matter if the husband loves this son’s mom or not. So , will u pl. tell me why many ( if not most ) Jewish & Christians think Prophet Ismail (p) had no right over there ?

The Christian understanding (ask Rav if this is also the Jewish understanding) is that in this case God promised to Abraham that he would blessing him, not just with a son (Ishmael, his son through Hagar is no less Abraham's son than Isaac), but that he would bless him with a son through Sarah. Ishmael is not Sarah's son and so cannot inherit what was promised to Abraham's son that God was going to give him through Sarah.

Ishmael may be entitled to the right of the first born, but this cannot negate what God promised to Sarah's son.





Are u saying that Muslims own more land there than the Jewish people ? I always read/ learnt even from the non-Muslim sources that Zionists are grabbing land there from Muslims.
I read the Zionists are doing this too. What I was saying is not that Zionists are treating Palestinians equitably. (Aren't Palestinians descendants of the Phoenicians, not Arabs anyway?) But I was saying that the descendants of Ishmael (aren't these the Arab people) possess land in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, the Emirates, Kuwait, Lybia, and elsewhere. This is a much greater total landmass than the descendants of Isaac possess in Israel. (And as we value it in today's economy, the wealth of Arab lands is far greater than the wealth of Jewish lands as well.)
 
Salaam/peace;

..... Ishmael is not Sarah's son and so cannot inherit what was promised to Abraham's son that God was going to give him through Sarah.

So God contradicts Himself in OT Deut
21 : 16 ?




Ishmael may be entitled to the right of the first born, but this cannot negate what God promised to Sarah's son.

The Biggest joke in Israel


If u ask any Jew in Israel , Who gave u
Palestine ? ...............without the slightest hesitation every Jew will reply God .

........ But over 75% of the Israeli Jews if questioned , Do u believe in God ? " they immediately respond with NO .

Yet these atheist & agnostic Jews falsely use God's name for their usurpation of the land of the Palestinians.

( few lines from the book : Arab & Israel.....by late Deedat )


I was saying that the descendants of Ishmael (aren't these the Arab people) possess land in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, the Emirates, Kuwait, Lybia, and elsewhere. This is a much greater total landmass than the descendants of Isaac possess in Israel.

So ???????? Does it mean Muslims can't have their due share in Jerusalem ???

Jews now live in USA , Europe .....if u count those lands ...then not sure who posses bigger land but ........i don't think holy land consists of Kuwait , Lybia , Yemen , USA etc.

should a believer denies the right of Prophet Ismail (p) in the holy land just because his mom was once a slave ?
 
The Christian understanding (ask Rav if this is also the Jewish understanding) is that in this case God promised to Abraham that he would blessing him, not just with a son (Ishmael, his son through Hagar is no less Abraham's son than Isaac), but that he would bless him with a son through Sarah. Ishmael is not Sarah's son and so cannot inherit what was promised to Abraham's son that God was going to give him through Sarah.

This is correct, Allah made a special covenant with Ibrahim (Alaihi salaam) and his descendants:

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." (2:124)

However, as you may well know, the covenants and laws which Allah made with the past nations have all been abrogated with the revelation of the Holy Quran and the coming of the final prophet Muhammad (Alaihi salaatu wa salaam). Now the final covenant is to believe in Allah and His Messenger. Regarding the holy land of Jerusalem, it has been promised to the Muslims, and we alone have the divine right to own it:

And He made you inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and also a land on which you have not yet set foot. And Allah has power over all things. (33:27)
 

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