I have the TRUTH!

[MustafaMc]

My wife and I were reading last night and we came across this verse, Qur'an 3:95 Say: "Allah speaks the Truth. Follow the religion of Abraham, the sane of faith; he was not of the Pagans (Mushrikun, or Polytheists)"

 

[glo]

I've actually studied this, way back in my undergrad years ago. A good bood on it is entitled "Amazing Conversions" by Bruce Hunsberger (who was my prof).

Some people find there way to religion through family and friends or emersion in a culture of it, slowly changing into it. But FAR more often it is a quick change following a major life event or emotional trauma. Though there may be exceptions, by and large people feel their way monostheism (which is all we studied) and think their way out of it. There are usually good feelings with becoming a believer and bad feelings with losing faith (initially, that changes with time).

I'm not saying that believers don't think. I'm just saying that the vast majority of believers don't become believers by thinking their way into it. It was either programming in youth or emotion brought them there. The smart ones are actually then harder to deconvert because they apply their intellect to find ways to justify their belief and hold on to it.

I enjoyed reading your post, Pygoscelis.
I am very interested in learning more about how and why people change their beliefs.

There certainly seems to be a fluctuation in our beliefs/faith journeys. I recognise that in myself, but see it in other people too.

I was scrolling throguh the 'advice' section here in LI, and there are many threads in which which people express their fear of 'losing faith', 'committing shirk' or sinning in other ways.

It seems that those times can become thresholds: either the person draws back into his/her faith or is drawn back by other believers, or they venture out into other belief systems ...
For those who choose the latter, there seems to be a point when the 'fear of loosing one's faith' actually becomes a blessing and turns into 'seeing the light and embracing a new belief'.
Would you agree with that, given your own studies into this subject?

It certainly seems that there is little point in trying to persuade people to accept your own beliefs unless they have a willingness and an intrinsic motivation to listen in the first place.
Otherwise it is like banging your head against a brick wall, and may not only be ineffective, but also counter-productive.

Peace

 

[Jayda]

I am hoping the title is attracting a few readers! :giggling:

I would like to explore how we all perceive truth.

The members here at LI represent a fair spectrum of different 'truths' - call them faiths, beliefs, worldviews, whatever ...
Let's assume that most members here at LI have come to their 'truth' through a process of pondering, reflecting and comparing other 'truths' ...

What I come across sometimes is an attitude in us that 'if only others thought things through properly, they would have to come to the same truth as I have - the very fact that their truth is different from mine must mean that they have not thought it through well enough!' (This attitude seems to be more common in monotheists and atheists)

Other people (more commonly agnostics and those who follow eastern faiths, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism) seem to have an attitude of 'all faiths and world views may contain some truth, or indeed all may lead to the truth'.

So what I am wondering is whether people can ponder the very same issues, but reach different truths/faiths/worldviews?
What do people think?

The trouble seems to be that I am as sure of my beliefs as many Muslims or atheists (as examples) are of theirs.
Because my beliefs seem so logical to me, it can be difficult to understand that other people cannot see/understand/accept 'my truth' for themselves.
This leads to frustration, which I recognise in myself and also in others in this forum.
This frustration can lead to angry exchanges, and is ultimately at odds with any tolerance for other 'truths' or a respect for the religious freedom, which we all cherish and demand for ourselves ...

Any thoughts?

Peace

hola Glo!

i think that God has a bigger plan for us and that there is a careful balance and interplay between our free will and His plan for us. it is the people who believe's job to carry the message to those who do not... it us up to the people who do not believe to choose but only God can give us the gift of faith and in some circumstances He can close our hearts to it... whatever suits His purposes, which we can trust are always good.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Pygoscelis]

We studied belief vs non-belief (mostly amongst christians) and conversions to and from religion in general. I really can't tell you much about conversion from one religion to another other than I'd expect most religious to offer pretty much the same benefits. It may be easier for a Christian to become a Muslim than to become an atheist simply because Islam would offer a new sense of cosmic justice, planned purpose, authoritarian code of conduct, etc. The convert would not be left in the same troubled state than many apostates (new atheists) are.

When somebody loses their faith it can be very troubling for them, especially if they were raised in the faith (rather than converted into it and then out of it). It takes time for an apostate to develop independent senses of purpose etc. You no longer have a big cosmic father figure looking down on you and guiding you and that can be very uncomfortable to many at first. Some also feel angry for "being deceived" by their religious leaders/family members. Add to this the fact that we live in a very religious society and that former friends family members often shun those who've left the faith and also the fact that church plays a major social and community role in most believers' lives and you can have a troubling adjustment period once the faith is gone and church is left behind with it.

That said though, most apostates we studied did not revert to their relious belief, and most reported being glad that they'd lost it. These people almost always reported intellectual honesty and individuality as vitally important to their journey and their journey away from religion usually starts with intellectual pursuits, questioning, and meeting people from worldviews other than their own. There is almost never an emotional push towards becomigng an atheist. People think their way into atheism (be they right or wrong to do so).

On the flipside, people tend to feel their way into becoming religious. Their conversions usually follow a major life event or trauma or a period in their life during which they were unhappy. Happy atheists with stable lives pretty much never become religious. New converts to religion almost always report new purpose in life, being able to cope better, etc. You almost never have new converts to religion needing much of an adjustment period or feeling troubled like you see with apostates.

Of course there are exceptions to all of the above, but the trends are strong.

It certainly seems that there is little point in trying to persuade people to accept your own beliefs unless they have a willingness and an intrinsic motivation to listen in the first place.
Otherwise it is like banging your head against a brick wall, and may not only be ineffective, but also counter-productive.

Studies have been done on this as well, and yes you are correct. More often than not when a believer in one religion and a believer in another religion debate both come away more entrenched in their initial positions.

 

[glo]

Studies have been done on this as well, and yes you are correct. More often than not when a believer in one religion and a believer in another religion debate both come away more entrenched in their initial positions.

That might explain why discussions in religious forums such as LI become heated so quickly ...

That's a problem in my mind, because I believe it is important to understand each other's beliefs and viewpoints, just to be able to live together reasonably amicably and peacefully.
But it seems that ther very attempt to understand another faith can quickly lead to arguments and hardened views ... :-\

What's the answer, you think?

Peace

 

[Trumble]

That's a problem in my mind, because I believe it is important to understand each other's beliefs and viewpoints, just to be able to live together reasonably amicably and peacefully.
But it seems that ther very attempt to understand another faith can quickly lead to arguments and hardened views ... :-\

What's the answer, you think?

Depends on how you look at it. John Stuart Mill defended freedom of expression for precisely that reason (among others).. belief can be reinforced and kept alive if arguments against what is believed are in the open, freely discussed, and rationally considered. If, after such consideration, they are rejected, the original belief can be, and indeed should be strengthened. The important thing, though, as alternatives must be considered on merit and adopted if reasoned thinking suggests they should be. That's where things tend to go wrong in practice!

Regardless, the need to maintain free and open discussion does assist tolerance for the views of others as in the absence of such tolerance it can't happen. Religious views that try to suppress the expression of other religious views are on very dodgy ground; it suggests an alarming lack of confidence in the people involved that their position can stand up to scrutiny. One of the good things about this board is such free discussion can and does take place, and I think the result is very positive for posters of all faiths (and indeed those without any). Stronger faith and belief, and greater tolerance can both co-exist and help each other if people have the will to let them.