I want to believe but I just can't

[Amor101]

Please read:

In Islam, men and women are equal before Allah. Meaning that one gender is no superior to the other when it comes to faith and piety. However, men and women are vastly different physically and psychologically. Anyone who opens a biology or psychology textbook will realize this at once. So this much does not need to be explained.

Because God gave them different physical and mental attributes, he has designated to them specific roles in their households and communities. I'll mention them in response to your concerns.

-That women must obey their guardians/husbands, no matter what they do to them.

And a husband must provide for his wife and family no matter what. He is the one with the obligation of providing food, clothing, shelter and anything necessary for a comfortable living. He cannot deny his wife access to his wealth. On the other hand, any income she gains, be it through inheritance or otherwise, is hers to do with as she pleases.

Let me ask you something. Why do you think that a mother has three times as many rights over her children than the father does? Is it random selection? No. Women have an obligation on them to care for their children. And with that obligation comes greater rights than the man.

Islam is not about equality, it is about fairness. You do more, you suffer more, you earn more rights.

That a woman has no right to refuse her husband in bed, and that the husband has a right to deny her for whatever reason.

Considering that the man is the authority of the household because of the superiority that Allah has given him based on the points I mentioned, wouldn't it undermine his authority every time his wife sent him to the couch when he told her something that she didn't want to hear?

Secondly, a woman does have the right to deny him sexual relations: When she is on her menses, when she is sick, when she is performing obligatory fasting, or when the relations have the possibility of causing her harm.

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I will find more for you..on the intelligence part. Come back to see it.

 

[Kazu]

I appreciate the reply as that is a really really good explanation on the part, it makes great sense. I would definitely subscribe to that view if only I have enough reasons to believe in this religion in the first place.

As for women who can't have children or can't marry, what good are they for? Because almost everything about them seems need to be related with the presence of a husband in order to complete the deen.

 

[Amor101]

We need a lot of knowledge. Don't judge things until you learn, because we totally get something off of context. I don't know who said women are less intelligent than men, but it is probably not what the mentioned hadeeth means

"The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" - 4:11

Allow me to explain.

Let's say that a father passes away, and leaves his inheritance to his son, daughter, and wife. The son gets the biggest portion. The reason being that he was given more financial responsibilities than his sister and his mother. What he inherits does not belong to him alone, but to the entire family. His inheritance will be used to feed, clothe, and support his family, and any family that he starts. On the other hand, whatever a woman inherits is hers alone to do with as she pleases.

In the long run, a man ends up with an inheritance equal to, if not less, than a woman's.

"And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women" -2 :282

This verse has nothing to do with a biological or psychological deficiency in a woman. Let's look at the full verse.

O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write, as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must have Taqwa of Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable to dictate for himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So have Taqwa of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

As you can see, this verse refers to business dealings, something that is not in a woman's jurisdiction. While a man focuses his entire attention on business, and on handling the finances, the woman focuses hers on the household. It is not her duty to be aware of the finances of the household, it is the responsibility of the man. Therefore, she cannot be expected to keep up with business contracts for debts on top of her other responsibilities. BUT, if a situation were to arise that would require a woman's testimony, then one other woman should be present so that they can remind one another if one of them doesn't remember enough.

"and the men are a degree above them [women]" -2 :228

This is taken completely out of context. Firstly, it is speaking of divorce, not all women in general. Secondly, the verse means "A degree of responsibility over them", not "a degree above women". This means that men have more responsibilities when it comes to their wives, than a woman does to her husband. Also, if you read the entire verse you would see that the verse does speak in light of women.


And divorced women shall wait (as regards their marriage) for three menstrual periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.)

 

[Simple_Person]

I'm happy for you that you had this sort of higher spiritual level experience. I will not say you're just spouting bs or you are so wrong and deluded. I'm asking you this. Is this fair?Is this fair for you to say this while claiming I will not understand this at all not even one bit? What are you trying to get out of saying this to me? So that I will like "ohh I will never comprehend this experience and he's sounding like he knows everything about the truth and I should believe him"? Do you know how many times someone of other faith, christian, hindu, buddhist have said the same thing to me about theirs? You're talking like you know absolutely everything about me and what I've been through, stereotyping me with a typical atheist like you were. What's the point if your god can't give me this experience? Does he do not want me to believe like you do? You're describing something you're claiming I couldn't get at. I'm already praying in general to any god out there in case he exists, that he would somehow giving me this sort of experience. Allah sets astray then nobody can guide. What kind of god is this?

I hate it when people brand certain people being "spiritual" it makes them as if they are some deluded people believing in things that aren't there. Things that cannot be concluded even using logic, rationality and reason with scientific evidence if it exist. For example, wind we cannot see, but based on logic, rationality and reason we can conclude it does exist. So people that acknowledge that, are "educated"-people and people that are "spiritual" are rather just deluded people that want to believe in something that cannot be confirmed logically, rationally and reasonably. No i have NOT reached a "spiritual"-level experience. You could rather say i have reached a higher level of understanding which i could agree with this wording. Based on what do i say this?

In the Qur'an Allah says

"It is We who relate to you, [O Muhammad], their story in truth. Indeed, they were youths who believed in their Lord, and We increased them in guidance." Qur'an 18:13

This is being said on multiple places. The question is rather..is this so called "delude"-spirtuality that you are making people look as if they are?

Rather is, seeing what people do not see. What am i talking about? It is understanding. We already have said so much to each other. I have shared knowledge with you, but understanding of that knowledge does NOT come from me. You often read in the Qur'an in different ayaat. These parts.

"Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient," Qur'an 2:26

The knowledge given is the EXACT SAME KNOWLEDGE. How come i UNDERSTAND it, yet somebody else does not? It doesn't make sense logically i would say. But i guess i have something or do not have that the other person does have or does not have. So "spirituality" you make it as if saying (no offense to my Christian brothers and sisters), Jesus died for my sins and you will not understand it. While this off course goes against, logic, rationality and reason. However within Islam "guides many" and "misleads many" isn't about something that goes against logic, rationality and reason, rather it goes exactly on that path.

That you will not understand one bit, is solely based on guidance. You see no logic, rationality or reason it, however this isn't even the biggest issue with you and the state of your heart as this is key for understanding. It is rather your approach is that of a teacher and not a student. I already have confirmed Islam by logic, rationality and reason with scientific evidence (FACTS that will NOT CHANGE) and with philosophical approach, that Islam is the truth. What i do not understand yet about Islam and things said in the Qur'an my approach is of a student. I say deep in myself, what kind of wisdom is behind this? Why is this like this and that? How come it is directed to this and that? etc. etc.. i ask question that are relevant and i ask question for the sake of knowing for better understanding. The knowledge i do have (read the aya for example), but i seek the understanding of it.

Just recently i watched or read about a event when Umar ibn Khattab (ra) was caliph. A woman with children came to Umar and said she was poor and her husband and father died during battles and said which ones they were. Umar ordered i believe the best camel to be carrying as much gold as it can. The woman left with the camel and all the gold. One of the servants said "oooh prince of the believers, you have given her too much gold". I at that moment agreed with that servant, but what Umar said, just blew me away and put me to shame. He said i can still remember how her father and husband were struggling during battle, if it was not for them, we would not be enjoying the fruits of their hard work.

This is high level of understanding.

You will NOT understand one bit, because your attitude. You already i believe have often heard in Islam Muslims should be humble. Why? Ever wondered that? How come? What is being humble? Towards whom? What is the benefit of doing so? These are relevant questions you know. However so far it looks like you do not care about asking such questions. You rather look at things from a simplistic perspective. As if everything is black and white. That is why i have advised you to refrain from interacting with society. People these days are very shallow minded. I myself count myself even one of them compared to people of high understanding. However i struggle towards that goal. No please do NOT believe me..even better i wouldn't want you to believe me whatsoever. What i do want you to do is go and use your mind yourself. You are as dumb as me and i am not smarter than you. All this understanding and me thinking clearly is NOT from me. You think such comment would have come from me even 5 years back (when i was still an atheist). I know how stupid, ignorant and a retard i am. I acknowledge me typing a comment that makes sense, is not from me as i am not capable of typing such a comment that makes sense. I am a guy that stumbled over his own words. I am a guy that says something in a such inefficient way that makes the other party just confusing. That is me and i acknowledge that being me.

To find guidance and i will tell you EXACTLY what i have concluded so far. Be honest, secondly, do NOT be a teacher, although being a teacher, never forget you are still a student. Think deeply about things. Just ponder away. Lose the rubbish of finding important what other people say about you or think about you. You ugly? Say i am made this way and i am thank for what i have gotten so to say. You beautiful? DO NOT flaunt it. This is arrogance and pride. Do not feel as if you are better than somebody else. Because you are not. Always keep in the back of your mind people are way ahead of me and i have to actively make it up to even reach their level. Stop listening to music, or slowly stopping it. This really clouds your judgement and your ability to want to think. Go early to bed and get up early. Eat healthy. Dump people near you that you know are NOT good for you. What people am i talking about? People that do not want to think about death/God/purpose of life. Such people sadly exist. If you have such people surrounding you, they will only drag you with them in their rubbish conversations about Kim Kardashian and her new shoes idiotic conversations. The mind like the body needs healthy input. Having healthy input makes you also want to think about beneficial thinks. I mean what benefit will you get to know which shoes Kim Kardashian has right? You get what i mean by this example with Kim Kardashian-nonsense. Think deeply about your heart..clean your heart. Pride, arrogance, envy, greed, dishonesty, lies..i will tell you it is NOT easy to do so. Allah says like you said "Allah sets astray then nobody can guide. What kind of god is this?"

Why does He led some people astray? That aya i earlier posted answers this question. "And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,". Allah guides whomever He wants? This logically says that Allah also has a certain criteria He uses for certain people to guide. What i said here above is part of that for example as criteria. If you read the Qur'an you will see at different places the people He guides. Their characteristics is shown. You and me even though we might disagree with certain things, if you read those characteristics you will see that are very good characteristics to have. Being patient, being kind, being humble, being compassionate and having empathy towards people, as well as creatures to even the earth it self. DO NOT LIE even if it is against themselves. Do not cheat, having morality, having shame, being shy, not being angry, greedy, being positive in good times and bad times, being thankful for what you have gotten, not committing excess (too much eating, wasting water, wasting electricity, wasting money, etc). So if you want to be among those being guided, search for all those characteristics and write them down. Then actively try to adopt those characteristics and reflect often. As people who reflect will know what they have to clean up (heart/behavior). For example i have created a habit that after every conversation i try to reflect that MAYBE i have said something wrong or even offensive (Telling the truth btw is not being offensive). Some people just want that you never are critical of them. Any ways if i have offended somebody, the next time i see them i apologize to them.

What a great observation. Seems like we do a lot of observations on human behavior in our younger years. From young I knew I was different, I am socially and mentally impaired. I was isolated and people around me would freak like hell if I talk to them. 'oh she can actually speak!' . I would just cry and cry and would always sit at the back, observing people. Never fitting with society. One time my teacher called up my mother and says 'I think your child is possessed by jins, better go check up' because I liked to gaze into the clouds and mindlessly ignoring the class. I don't like to think me being mentally impaired affects my intelligence but this gives me a lot of capacity to process things, me being isolated from other people. So my point here, I have done my observation. In islam it says 'what you like is not always good for you, and what you don't like might be best for you' this what motivates me as I was tryingg sooo hard to fit in society while doing some haram things and stumbles so many times..at times I just doesn't care anymore. I just wanted to be 'normal'. But I believed I may be a loser to society but favored in Allah's eyes, so I started to feel MUCH better about myself. It's like a weight suddenly been lifted off. After that I do everything I wanted to do as long as its not haram, even if it seems weird to some people 'why are you doing this'? for no reason at all. I do what I want because at the end of the day, who truly cares?

If you care about what others think of you..well this will sum everything up.

I also have had my fair share of people and their nonsense. At my lowest point in life when i needed people the most, everybody was busy with their own life while at that young age i needed help the most. Since that day (16-17 years ago) something snapped in my head. Years after i still tried with other people to "fit" in. But people are by default misguided. Only people who question things and are "strangers" to society, will be guided God willing. So NEVER think of pleasing people, because you CAN'T. My own family i give them a hard time, because i put salt on their wounds as i speak about hypocritical actions or when they try to "brainwash" me in loving money i reply, how much will i be taking with me after my death? Or people will forget me in less time than they have known me. Just think about the LAST person that have died. Was it last month? Last years? A few years back? How many people still think or talk about that individual? Everybody has forgotten about him/her. Think about why certain thinks have been made haram? You wanna talk about alcohol? drugs? disco? premarital relationship? money? pork? With regret i say i have been there done that. What have i benefited from that? Absolutely NOTHING. It is seriously all a lie. I am not trying to act all tough, but just saying really it is all a lie. It is empty as the words itself stands for. It brings you ONLY misery. That is why i in one of my previous comments said "you will realize it i guarantee you". Because all those lies of everything that Allah has made haram but them being beautified by sheytan, brings you NOTHING BUT depression and misery.

Now come to think of it, even if I'm again on the opposite side of the spectrum,noting I'm not doing it because of people, but I genuinely want to be who I am while having common sense (dont harm yourself, dont hurt others, do good etc etc) because at the end of the day, who truly cares? I personally believe this is the point of balance. When you fit islam in the equation on everything, of course you're gonna get biased. It's not wrong but are you not realizing you could look at it from so many ways. I'm not rejecting the validity of your opinion in this case from islamic point of view, but I realized, there's other ways to it. I never did fit well with society as I find so many things wrong with them. I understand most people is at some point struggling like I did, but perhaps with different things. I don't want to act like "look at me I'm smarter than you, I know a lot about human behavior, wish you could just realize you done so many stupid things contributing to society retardation it's making the world a living hell for us all" no, telling them they are retarded won't help it but if you could, try giving them some emotional support, the rest is up to them. Ever seeing someone acts like douchebag but inside they're lonely and lost.

After all, mine and yours society is different. Living in the east, I could say, everybody knows everybody..everybody cares about everybody (when it comes to religion practices) I could totally be apathetic to Islam if I want to, but because I have this kind of society, I'm living in prison now. So is this comforting at all? But thinking of my family, I just couldn't leave or hurt them, after all my parents are old and sick and a brother who keeps stealing knifes from the kitchen. I'll pretend to be anything they want me to be, even if this means sacrificing my freedom and marriage life. This world is temporary. I acknowledged my limit as a human and intend to make the most out of it.

What is the definition of hurting others? Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has said the least harm you can do to your neighbors is having them smelled the food your are cooking, but they not getting a share. This makes me just be baffled how "not hurting others" is defined. Doing good, having ill feelings even towards others while not showing them is already not oke. I mean again look at the perspective. People look at those things from a very shallow point of view, while these things go DEEP. Do not care about my opinion and i even ask you to not listen to my opinion. All i ask for you to do is to question and actively pursue as a student. If you become a convinced Muslim or not, i will NOT benefit you know however i have two things. It is MANDATORY for me to spread the message of Islam correctly and secondly having the peace of heart and peace of mind i want others to also have. It is NOT part of the behavior of a Muslim to enjoy good without sharing what he/she enjoying. Makes me think about Ibrahim(as). As he always shared his food with others.

Now this problem with religion is that it decides for you your purpose, what you should be, what you should not, what you find your worth in. This is true especially for women. Islam doesn't do a good job in empowering women. Sure some speaks good thing about them, but a lot of the sources are not in their favor. Prophet says the best adornment/joy in this world are the righteous women. Why would I wanna be the best adornment/joy?

"And remain in your homes." [Al-Azhaab:33]"

A muslim woman is best to remain in her home unless for necessity such as having outside of home careers only if the society requires them, and its important to observe proper hijab when going out. Islam doesn't restrict women to work outside but isn't it better to remain inside? When I was young I STRUGGLED to find my identity as a girl in islam, I wanted to please Allah, I wanted to live his ways to the fullest. My friends aren't very religious and they're all highly ambitious people. But in secret, I was seriously considering to marry at early age after school, wear niqab, be a stay at home mom while abandoning my ambition to be a renowned scientist, because according to islam this is the best profession a muslim woman can have. I'm not saying be a stay at home mom is bad but it's preferable not to opt out.

What i often see is that many women having this drive to be this or that. I have also done my investigation in to this and tried to understand this. You know what shocked me about the findings? All propaganda. Hear me out. To come to a conclusion, you first look at people who already have achieved those things. For example there are people who say purpose of life is money and fame. So then we look at rock-stars who are multi-millionaires and they commit suicide. This to me rather shows it is incorrect that that is the purpose of life. So with women and having this drive practicing certain practice, i looked at the women who indeed have achieved their goals. I noticed that many ended up in depression. Some even had zina (non-Muslims women) but tried in to tricking the men in to making them believe they were having the pill, while in reality they were not on the pill. All to just have a baby. Women when they at least hit their 30's become "ugly" for worldly view. So men who go after their desires go after younger men. Such women who have gone past their 30, they have money, house, car, freedom and even occasional man that only sees some meat to have intimacy, however their depression is not having a child. That is when i realized whole child thing for women. What does come down to with women? Having a husband that loves them and gives them attention and gives them a child.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...e-I-thought-I-better-Now-Im-childless-42.html

So by logic we must look at people who did have "achieved" what they desired, however does it mean it was good for you? Allah has created us certain way although we might not know why something is better for us now, but if we do not follow that path in the end we will be miserable. So if you have read that story of that woman, things fit the picture.

Several months ago I posted a thread titled 'help me understand men/women logic in islam'. No one, absolutely no one counter my arguments with relevant points but gave me the context of the translation (which doesn't make sense) that prophet said women are less intelligent than men, while in fact it is backed up by science that women are actually less intelligent than men because women in general are more likely to have mean IQ level while men varies a lot more. Why islam tries so desperately to sugarcoat this? Why there is more women in hell than men? Is this not because they are less intelligent? One even says ' I assure you Allah didn't create women with greater defects' again bias, I don't want to believe in something I don't subscribe to in the first place let alone be assured. Though you confirmed that women are less intelligent, but didn't really answered my question. I think most women in islam accepted this because they believe they are naturally submissive and in line with my point that islam doesn't do a good job in empowering women thus why I think a just god wouldn't do this.

Since I'm not a muslim anymore and don't have to depend on a husband, I wanted to pursue the career as a scientist but as a woman with average intelligence, I could use the intellect of a man more than he himself wants to. The one way I could make the most out of my temporary life is making a real change in this world the way I wanted to, not by what religion defines for me. Eventually I understand, countering me means disagreeing with Allah, which you can't do. I feel like arguing in an islamic forum is not gonna get me anywhere as you can't speak something beyond your limit as a muslim, I'm so sorry... This has been a long rant

Women being less intelligent than men, some people see that as a "offensive¨ thing. It has nothing to do of being offensive, rather it is what it is. Is this a bad thing? No it is not, because men lack in other things. In Islam marriage is completion of the religion. Why? This is a relevant question right? When one completes the other. The man has more intellect, but the woman is emotionally stronger. This completes the other making them a good team to fill up what the other is missing. So to give you the example. If i am having a difficulty talking with somebody or whatever, asking my wife and her to teach me or explain things to me with her part of the marriage makes me understand things better. Women needs to be taken care of, is the duty of a man and she takes care of her man (woman are a tranquility for men). Back as an atheist/culture-Muslim i remember when having a girl-friend this tranquility. You are at ease and if you put your head on her lap as a man i got a peace of mind. However women these days have become like devils, the LAST place you want to be to have a peace of mind is with your wife. Why? Because they have been corrupted with feminism and worldly desires (money, materialism..etc) and manipulate their husband to go buy them this and that because the neighbors "also" have it. So for me as a unmarried guy, i say my life without a women for now is better. Until Allah grants me one that i DESERVE and she deserves me.

About more women in hell. It has if you ask me not so much to do with intellect whatsoever. Rather ungratefulness. The example Rasullah(saws) used was rather to the smallest degree as it was "nothing" so to say. However that was you could say the "LEAST" baddest attitude of some women. What about the rest of them? Look at this video to see a heartless woman..if you ask me. If this is not being ungrateful..then i do not know anymore.

"Rant" as much as you want, i already was planning to close my account, so until then (until hadji period starts) i will keep this account open.

I am only giving you a smiley of..we will see as you will only feel misery. A wise person is one who learns from the mistakes others have made before him/her. He/she will make her own mistakes, however they wlll not be the ones made previously by others. In other words reaching a higher degree of being a better person and more successful in life from all perspectives.

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I appreciate the reply as that is a really really good explanation on the part, it makes great sense. I would definitely subscribe to that view if only I have enough reasons to believe in this religion in the first place.

As for women who can't have children or can't marry, what good are they for? Because almost everything about them seems need to be related with the presence of a husband in order to complete the deen.

Ever wondered that MAYBE..JUST MAYBE you do not know what Allah knows? Some do not have children as a test for them. While others maybe as parents would do a lot of injustice towards their children and thus prevent them becoming pregnant. Or others would only make a life of a man only harder if they married..?? You do not know, so do not act if you do. This whole life is a test. Allah already knows what we harbor and His plan is WAAAY before we have our plan.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Greetings, I'm sorry I don't believe I'm doing that. Rather, at such an early age I only learn knowledge about Islam until I'm a bit older and started to come across the opposite types of medias, I realized I've been very biased all along the same way these medias are biased. So I believe I started to adopt the more neutral side to it.

I would not call leaning towards Atheism/Agnosticism as being "Neutral". But you stated in your previous post:

But until I opened myself to the outer world, I started becoming friends with some non muslims, reading forums and articles etc. I changed my views on life, I became very liberal in my thinking, and this wasn't a good thing.

So you admitted that you had "corrupted" your beliefs by constantly feeding your mind with anti religion/anti Islamic ideas and perspectives and consequently have been sold out by such rhetoric. This is also because you already had a deficiency in your imaan from the beginning and this deficiency just grew more and more to what it is today.

That is a very good explanation and I would definitely subscribe to that IF ONLY I subscribe to this religion in the first place. I wouldn't subscribe to this religion just by reading your explanation because it happens to be biased as well and apparently I don't have enough reason to believe it.

Whatever one believes in whether it is atheism/agnostisicm, Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc then it is obvious that each side will give their view. But you have come here for the Islamic view and that is the view you will obviously get.

When I was muslim I once thought that a god must exist because if he doesn't, then ultimate justice is impossible. Ultimate justice must prevail because if it doesn't, then the world will be so messed up and to a point it's impossible the world could even exist without ultimate justice. Now come to think of it, what if the world is meant to not have ultimate justice? What if the world is meant to be miserable and messed up? On what basis can I relate the existence of both ultimate justice and god thus confirm it? Because of one of the 99 names of Allah? Well, that is your version of god. God could very well be just, in this case, Allah, and could also be unjust, if he chose to. Allah could choose to just give everyone a very very clear evidence of his existence so only the ones refuses to accept will go to hell because he clearly rejects the absolute truth presented right in front of him, but now Allah chose not to because he is giving us this gift of free will and mind.

So to say that we believe in complete injustice, no, justice is what we make ourselves, we try to be just to as much people as possible. Common sense dictates we should treat others just like how we like to be treated. But in the context of what we want, in truth we want complete justice to prevail, and very much regret that this could not happen. Does wanting to believe in complete justice immediately makes it real? No

Though this is not a good argument as we have different definitions of what justice is.

How did we make "justice" ourselves? from thin air? How did we even begin to have any feelings and emotions in the first place? Again from thin air? How did we ever have the morality we had today in the very first place? Oh I forgot you believe that energy, matter, life and human personality and intelligence all came from randomly from "nothing" and we are merely "randomly" feeling all of these feelings which came in the midst of chaos in the Universe "randomly" resulting from the big bang. Do you not see how absurd your thinking and logic is? Every living creature on this Earth has its own specific instinct, personality, physical capability and unique intelligence, which changes with experience. So did all of this occur randomly out of nothing just like us and the Universe and what it contains? This is without a doubt proof of an intelligent creator and designer. But it requires a person to ponder and contemplate without the restraints of corrupted thinking and arrogance in the heart.

Although we discussed that ultimate justice for all will take place in the Hereafter, there is still much justice that does occur in this world. Some people refer to it as "karma", or "what goes around comes around" etc. This is something even people with no faith have found and it certainly points to a God that does "care" and is in control. So many things that occur in one's life point towards some sort of supernatural control. Whether you call it God or not. But those who will reject and disbelieve will find any excuse to do so and will never believe no matter what evidence is put in front of them.

I'm sorry but what are you talking about?
I'm not an atheist.. everyone seems to stereotype me with a typical modern day atheist, anti-islamist.

My statement was in response to the following statement of yours in the OP:

I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones,

This clearly indicates that you felt Imaan in the past and that you yearn to feel this Imaan again, otherwise you would not be here. With regards to my statement what I meant was that each of our hearts and souls yearns for Allah and this is why you are feeling this why because your heart and soul is yearning for the belief it once had. InshaAllah we pray it will return. Ameen

So are you not always trying to come up with all sorts of reasons to believe in god and ignoring absolutely everything else? and telling me not to befriend non muslim except what is necessary? telling me what to do and what not to do? what if they do the same thing to you to strengthen their own faith, even though in your thinking they are the wrong ones.

There is absolutely no reason not to believe in God. It baffles me that there are an infinite number of processes and cell multiplications that have occurred from the beginning until now and will continue occurring in a constant cycle of life, death and then life again, with everything in perfect harmony and Constance, yet there are people out there that believe all of this to have come out from "nothing" and to have occurred completely "randomly" out of nothing? Are you seriously telling me that the whole Universe with everything it contains of trillions of creations many of which are more complex than we can ever imagine and all of this occurred randomly and everything around us is occurring randomly? SubhanAllah! These Atheist Scientists are taking you and other atheist/agnostics for fools.

Some Atheist Scientists try to explain this by talking about some absurd "theory" about a Multiverse Universe? Are you serious? Then you talk about evidence and logic. These atheist scientists are deceiving you because they know they will never have the answers to the most fundamental questions of our existence and they will continue deceiving you until death overtakes you and you die in disbelief. May Allah never allow that to happen and may he guide you to the truth. Ameen

Atheist Scientists do not own science. They are given the biggest platforms on the atheist biased media but as I have said before there are many scientists that believe in God. Atheists talk as if science limits itself to things that you can see and touch as if there is empirical evidence for every single thing that science describes. Can you or have you ever seen gravity? But you will state that there is evidence that it does exist. Similarly there is overwhelming evidence that God exists. In fact a new cosmological theory has abrogated the previous "Copernican" cosmological theory. Have you heard of the Planck satellite mission around Earth when it was discovered that there is an axis around which the entire Universe revolves and at the centre of that axis is our solar system. SubhanAllah. This also refutes Deism as it is almost as if to say that the entire Universe is made just for us.

This also goes against the hypothesis that we are just insignificant molecules in the wide expanse of the Universe. Do you know what they called this discovery? The "Axis of evil". They hate for their to be any evidence of an "intelligent designer" or in other words God. So they decided to name it something hateful. This is also proof of a "caring" God who has put us in a special place right in the middle of his Universe where everything else revolves around our planet. This also disapproves an age old unproven atheist scientific theory that we all came randomly out of nothing in this Earth in the midst of chaos across the Universe as tat would have meant our solar system would have ended up anywhere across the Universe. I have no doubt that Scientists knew for a long time that there is evidence of an intelligent designer but they hid it due to the Atheist agenda being directed by Iblis and his followers (both man and Jinn).

As stated in my previous post, if all the scientists in the world came together they could not even create a fly. In fact if they spent billions of years they could not even create a simple atom out of nothing. Yet there are many arrogant people who reject the one whom created us and everything around us.

Almighty Allah says: O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought. (22:73)

If mankind cannot create a single atom out of nothing then how can the Universe and what it contains with its infinite creations and constant processes occur and come out of nothing?

The fact of the matter is that no matter what "evidence" or signs are put in front of certain people, they will always CHOOSE not to believe in the evidence that God exists. This is because of their arrogance that has put a seal on their hearts so they will not acknowledge the truth when it is laid out in front of them and they have a seal on their eyes so that they cannot see the truth in front of them. Most unfortunate are such people may Allah guide them and unseal the hearts and eyes. Ameen

So my sister we can continue having this discussion for years on end, having to and from's but at the end of the day i is all down to you to act on the advice given to you if you truly want guidance to the truth. You have said it yourself:

I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones,

You are clearly not happy in your current state and what you believe in at present otherwise you would not be here. No doubt there is a clear void in your heart and nothing else will ever be able to fill this void except belief in Allah. The so called "flaws" you refer to about with Islam are only flaws in your own thinking and lack of knowledge and a disease in your heart (in the metaphoric sense) on matters which you should have cleared properly before the deficiencies in your Imaan grew further. These "flaws" that you talk of are also because it does not agree with your Nafs (inner desires). These are the things you need to clear up and get clarified so that if Allah wills Imaan will eventually return to your heart inshaAllah. So raise and open your hands unto Allah and ask him sincerely for guidance. Make the necessary effort in accordance with the advice's you have been given. We can only advise you, the rest is up to Allah as only he can return Imaan to your heart.

I hope you find the following video helpful:

Scientist proves the existence of God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVxegSvCEcs

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I appreciate the reply as that is a really really good explanation on the part, it makes great sense. I would definitely subscribe to that view if only I have enough reasons to believe in this religion in the first place.

As for women who can't have children or can't marry, what good are they for? Because almost everything about them seems need to be related with the presence of a husband in order to complete the deen.

Kazu you keep making statements pertaining to Islamic matters but when you are given an answer that satisfies and clarifies your misconception, you then say "If I had subscribed to Islam I would have believed that but I don't".

Surely you need to concentrate on the root of your problems first. You have already stated that you have gone from forum to forum asking various questions about Islam and your disbelief and if I recall correctly you asked a similar question about your disbelief in Ummah forum. You had also mentioned that you debated with your Muslim friends about Islam.

Kazu there will always be a continuous "to and from" with you and others unless and until you tackle the root of your problems first and foremost. Once the root of the problem is tackled then all other issues related to it will also disappear inshaAllah. One of the main issue's with people who question the existence of God, and in your case viewing "Islam has having flaws" is essentially saying that God's rules have "flaws" and so God must have flaws in his wisdom for why he made such a decision in the first place. This is nothing else but arrogance in thinking we know better than God and so is one of the main reasons why you backed away from Islam and eventually lost your Imaan. This arrogance began and had grown in the heart and is similar to the story of Iblees who was of the pious but when God made a decision, he did not agree with it, so arrogance had grown in his heart to the point where he thought he knew better than God.

So by you having rejected the wisdom of God, then you are essentially saying that you know better than him and that he should not have done things or made decisions in the way that he had done. Similarly atheists refuse to acknowledge the existence of God even if "evidence" is laid out in front of them. They will always try and find a way around such "evidence" in order to justify in their own minds that God does not exist. They "choose" to refuse to want to believe that they will be accountable in front of a higher power. You can see this in their demeanor especially in debates where they snap very quickly and become impatient, angry and bitter toward those who believe. This is nothing but sheer arrogance which has caused other diseases in their hearts.

So no one will ever be able to convince you of anything unless and until you tackle the root of your problems which is to get rid of this arrogance from your heart that refuses to acknowledge and accept the wisdom of God. Once you have tackled the root then everything else will fall into place. We must humble ourselves in front of our creator and not allow our Nafs (inner desires) from rejecting the wisdom of God. Everything he has done , he has done only for us and what is best for us. We are nothing in front of him. Can you not comprehend the vastness and complexity of this Universe and what it contains? Therefore how can we as specs of dust, lowly beings compared to the most high, even begin to question his wisdom and decisions. For his knowledge is "whole" and complete and encompasses everything, whereas our knowledge is limited and narrow only to what is relevant to us in our lives. Therefore he knows and we know not.

So we must put our trust, reliance and faith in him knowing that we as created being need him and cannot be without him. We must come out of this arrogant way of thinking that we know better when it is only our Nafs and the disease in our hearts making us think in this way. Therefore Kazu you know what you need to do and if you continue like this then you will only remain in a state of loss, confusion and not knowing where you are in life nor what exactly you are looking for.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kazu;

Rather, what I meant, was one is not supposed to doubt Allah if he is a true believer.

I do agree with you, but faith or trust in Allah is a journey, always one day at a time, and life throws us lots of problems. The best analogy I can think of is parachuting. It is easy to sit in your chair and say, I believe parachuting is safe, but that means nothing. The only way to have faith in a parachute, is to go up in a plane, and jump.

If you jump once, you have faith, just once. If you jump a hundred times, you put your trust in that parachute a hundred times. But if you have a close encounter with death, will you have that faith to jump one more time? There are no guarantees when you parachute, people die sometimes.

You cannot know the outcome of your next parachute jump, but you have to put your faith in that parachute and trust it totally, or you will not jump.

Faith in Allah is similar, you just have to put your trust in him totally, you have to trust fully that he created the universe and life. If you can accept just this one thing as an absolute truth, you can then spend the rest of your life striving to understand his word. All truth must lead towards compassion, justice, patience, kindness, forgiveness and mercy, so maybe reflect on the 99 names of Allah.

As anyone will try to find any reasons at all to validate his stance, and confirmed what he believes, usually in bias.

In the spirit of searching for our creator.

Eric

 

[Kazu]

I would not call leaning towards Atheism/Agnosticism as being "Neutral".

Yes..after all we believe in different things

So you admitted that you had "corrupted" your beliefs by constantly feeding your mind with anti religion/anti Islamic ideas and perspectives and consequently have been sold out by such rhetoric. This is also because you already had a deficiency in your imaan from the beginning and this deficiency just grew more and more to what it is today.

Yes I admit this.. yes I do. My first ever apostasy was 3 years ago, I stopped praying 5 times in about 2 months, I stopped going to classes, the guilt I had was unbearable...I felt like I was going crazy. In my mind "islam requires me as a woman to best remain in my home unless for a necessity and here I am in a university enrolling in a course (which is already dominated by men, so not really a necessity for a woman to be here), mixing up with boys, discussing things whether be it intellectual or just trivial stuff, people dont really cover their aura properly, people kept having crushes and dating different ppl, my parents kept pushing me to get the best grade, like, what am i even doing here..this can't be right.." I had depression.. I thought I was going crazy, and all these people kept saying I'm just not sincere in my heart,I had corrupted my heart with things I shouldn't. but I know, I know, I know I'm being sincere enough..if there is a god, he would know, yes he would know, that I'm being honest and humble enough, and he wouldn't punish me for this, it's just too unbearable, I'm only human after all and a woman with strong emotions...and if there's a god, he wouldn't put me in this situation.

I don't know what to believe, different people kept telling me different things while at the same time having so much daily commitments, having to pretend constantly in front of all people (ppl can't know or else I'm doomed, if I live in a muslim country I'll be dead long time ago) and the thoughts of I can die at any time without knowing my god, without contributing something big to the community and making my parents proud. Eventually I surround myself with some religious friends, start going to usrah, eventually I accepted back Islam and recited my shahadah..but I did this because I wanted to stay in the 'comfort zone', to complete my study, but in the back of my head, there are just some things I can't ignore. Now 2 years after finishing my studies, I wanted to address these questions I had and as usual, at first I'm feeling this guilt again, it's just a natural reaction because I'm leaving something I've held in my heart all of my life. It's just a natural reaction. I thought I had corrupted myself by believing these anti-islam propaganda, being biased and one-sided...but after several months I regained my composure, I exercise daily, look into the beauty of nature, converse positively with friends and family while being away from these types of medias..and I began coming back to address the things I'm not finished on. I adopted this 'neutral' approach to all things. And yes I was a libtard. Not living in the west, I only knew so much about the left, right-wing movement and what they call liberal and conservative, democrat and republican. I don't know much. If you ask an average muslim in my place, they won't have any idea what a leftist is. People here just like to stay the way they are. While being an ex-muslim and still being comfortable in hijab, I criticized the right wingers who wanted hijab and niqabs to be banned in the west, and their mentality cherry-picking the quran and hadeeth, taking them out of context just to provoke nice, moderate muslims. I hate them. And I also hate the muslims cherry-picking the quran taking them out of context just to suit their needs. I need to find the point of balance between being liberal and conservative.

There is absolutely no reason not to believe in God. It baffles me that there are an infinite number of processes and cell multiplications that have occurred from the beginning until now and will continue occurring in a constant cycle of life, death and then life again, with everything in perfect harmony and Constance, yet there are people out there that believe all of this to have come out from "nothing" and to have occurred completely "randomly" out of nothing? Are you seriously telling me that the whole Universe with everything it contains of trillions of creations many of which are more complex than we can ever imagine and all of this occurred randomly and everything around us is occurring randomly? SubhanAllah! These Atheist Scientists are taking you and other atheist/agnostics for fools.

Ever thought about deism? Pantheism? Even Einstein said the question about the existence of god is the hardest one and will always be. The very man who discovered e=mc2. The part in his brain responsible for conceptualizing physics problems was bigger than an average person. And he wasn't an atheist. nor he doesn't wish to be worshipped. He even said a god doesn't play dice. Anyway, I'm still searching and I don't want to talk too much about something I'm not finished on. I'm not your typical atheist. But anyway I want to thank some of the infos you gave me, it will still add up to my knowledge somehow, so I will look them up later.

No doubt there is a clear void in your heart and nothing else will ever be able to fill this void except belief in Allah. The so called "flaws" you refer to about with Islam are only flaws in your own thinking and lack of knowledge and a disease in your heart (in the metaphoric sense) on matters which you should have cleared properly before the deficiencies in your Imaan grew further.

Again, why? why? don't you think this is one-sided ? Pls think about this. This isn't the way to reach out to people like me out there.

I hope you find the following video helpful:

Scientist proves the existence of God

Thank you, will check it out.

 

[Kazu]

Whatever one believes in whether it is atheism/agnostisicm, Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc then it is obvious that each side will give their view. But you have come here for the Islamic view and that is the view you will obviously get.

Yes exactly. I didn't realized this when I first posted in the forum. But I understand that. I understand people here can't speak about something beyond their limit as a muslim, so I won't have a proper argument in a muslim forum. But I appreciate the replies, it will still add up to my knowledge. Maybe after this I'll go search for an agnostic forum, I don't know if there's one. However these people had spent their time reading my posts and gave their thoughts , so out of courtesy I'll reply a bit.

 

[Kazu]

Ever wondered that MAYBE..JUST MAYBE you do not know what Allah knows? Some do not have children as a test for them. While others maybe as parents would do a lot of injustice towards their children and thus prevent them becoming pregnant. Or others would only make a life of a man only harder if they married..?? You do not know, so do not act if you do. This whole life is a test. Allah already knows what we harbor and His plan is WAAAY before we have our plan.

Yes I wondered about that. In fact, I've wondered about nearly everything these people tell me what to be wondered about since I was muslim before. But I think this sounds like a big cop-out. Know what I mean? As a science student (I don't mean to belittle anyone from other fields) science teaches me to always be skeptical and questioning. I'll give an example. Prayer, du'a. While muslims believe dua means you ask something from Allah to be granted,, but when it comes to its results, you CAN get what you asked, and you CAN CAN'T get what you asked. 'If this guy gets what he asked, then this is the blessing for him. But wait, what if he doesn't get what he wants?' In analogy with a technician with a broken aquarium, filled up the tank with water to test the glass, and there's holes here and there. Then the technician will say 'okay lets cover up the hole' ; 'what if he doesn't get what he wants? lets cover it up, say this is a test for him' Thus I don't think a dua is effective to ask for something from god, but it's just a measure to test his iman and reliance on Allah, after all Allah likes people who years only for his help and just be submissive.

When you already have this preconceived believe in something even before questioning something, this is going to distort your thinking. 'what if she can't have children? or can't marry? what happens to privileges she can have when she's married?' 'Well...lets just say this is just a test for her, this is her fate, maybe she'll be doing terrible stuff to her children so ...' when you realized really really terrible things still happened to kids like mothers selling out their daughter for prostitution in a muslim community, yes, this happened. 'well.....lets just say this is a test for the children, maybe this is a retribution for the children as maybe Allah knows the kids might do really really terrible things in the future so we're cancelling out the sins'. What is this? I thought fate is what we make for ourselves, unless the uncontrollable. In the islamic belief, I understand that we make our own fates and Allah can't interfere in it unless death and whatever we can't control. In his ultimate book in the heaven (the louh al mahfuz), Allah doesn't sets for us our fates, but he only knows what our actions will be and wrote it down even before the universe existed.) correct me if I'm wrong but I find this was a misconception so I looked it up and found this explanation.

I don't mean this to sound offensive but me not being a native english speaker, I think I tried my best to explain this.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Yes I admit this.. yes I do. My first ever apostasy was 3 years ago, I stopped praying 5 times in about 2 months, I stopped going to classes, the guilt I had was unbearable...I felt like I was going crazy. In my mind "islam requires me as a woman to best remain in my home unless for a necessity and here I am in a university enrolling in a course (which is already dominated by men, so not really a necessity for a woman to be here), mixing up with boys, discussing things whether be it intellectual or just trivial stuff, people dont really cover their aura properly, people kept having crushes and dating different ppl, my parents kept pushing me to get the best grade, like, what am i even doing here..this can't be right.." I had depression.. I thought I was going crazy, and all these people kept saying I'm just not sincere in my heart,I had corrupted my heart with things I shouldn't. but I know, I know, I know I'm being sincere enough..if there is a god, he would know, yes he would know, that I'm being honest and humble enough, and he wouldn't punish me for this, it's just too unbearable, I'm only human after all and a woman with strong emotions...and if there's a god, he wouldn't put me in this situation.

As we go through the journey of life then we will inevitably go through many types of different situations in our lives. That is part of the test of life in that we are tested through different types of situations, but if we have nothing to "guide" us through the complexities of life then surely we will be lost, swaying from here to there, not knowing which direction we are going. Hence why as Muslims we have the perfect guide in our lives as the Qur'an and Sunnah along with the consensus of scholarly teachings and explanations. We totally submit ourselves unto him and know that we must obey him only for our own good. Although he has given us consequences for not following his commands, his mercy and forgiveness is far greater. He is more generous than we can ever comprehend and he loves us far more than we can ever imagine. His rewards for our obedience will be far greater than the good we would have done in this world.

There is a correlation of thought processes with those who have lost faith and those who are losing it in that they blame God for things that have gone wrong in their lives and the bad things that are happening in the world. They fail to want to comprehend that there is a divine wisdom behind it all and actually many people after having gone through such experiences come out at the end accepting there was a profound wisdom behind it all. But those people who after going through any type of trial, hardship and adversity become weak and succumb to the whispers of shaythan and their desires and start blaming God for what they are going through or for the bad things happening in the world. As I have stated before and I will state again that such people have deficiencies in their hearts that grow as time goes on.

The only way to overcome being angry towards Allah and blaming him for bad things that happen in peoples lives is to firstly really want to change from your current state. Surely you being here then deep down you do want to change from your current state. Then you will have to swallow your ego and admit that you have a problem in that this is a negative and detrimental aspect of your personality. Secondly you will have to totally submit your will and to humble yourself unto Allah and rid your heart of pride and arrogance in that you do not question God's will and divine wisdom just because you do not understand it. There are infinite things we do not understand then does that mean we question all those infinite things? There is no logic in that. Therefore you must accept that your knowledge is limited whereas Allah's knowledge is infinite and he knows what you know not.

So know that everything that Allah does is good, wise and just. Allah does what He does for reasons that are known to Him; His slaves or some of them may know some of those reasons, or their limited minds may be unable to comprehend much of the divine wisdom behind things.

Ibn al-Qayyim (Ra) said: Allah is Most Wise. He does not do anything in vain or for no purpose. This is indicated by His words and the words of His Messenger (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam).

I don't know what to believe, different people kept telling me different things while at the same time having so much daily commitments, having to pretend constantly in front of all people (ppl can't know or else I'm doomed, if I live in a muslim country I'll be dead long time ago) and the thoughts of I can die at any time without knowing my god, without contributing something big to the community and making my parents proud. Eventually I surround myself with some religious friends, start going to usrah, eventually I accepted back Islam and recited my shahadah..but I did this because I wanted to stay in the 'comfort zone', to complete my stu when dy, but in the back of my head, there are just some things I can't ignore. Now 2 years after finishing my studies, I wanted to address these questions I had and as usual, at first I'm feeling this guilt again, it's just a natural reaction because I'm leaving something I've held in my heart all of my life. It's just a natural reaction. I thought I had corrupted myself by believing these anti-islam propaganda, being biased and one-sided...but after several months I regained my composure, I exercise daily, look into the beauty of nature, converse positively with friends and family while being away from these types of medias..and I began coming back to address the things I'm not finished on. I adopted this 'neutral' approach to all things. And yes I was a libtard. Not living in the west, I only knew so much about the left, right-wing movement and what they call liberal and conservative, democrat and republican. I don't know much. If you ask an average muslim in my place, they won't have any idea what a leftist is. People here just like to stay the way they are. While being an ex-muslim and still being comfortable in hijab, I criticized the right wingers who wanted hijab and niqabs to be banned in the west, and their mentality cherry-picking the quran and hadeeth, taking them out of context just to provoke nice, moderate muslims. I hate them. And I also hate the muslims cherry-picking the quran taking them out of context just to suit their needs. I need to find the point of balance between being liberal and conservative.

It is very apparent from all of your writings here that you are very confused with regards to your beliefs which are very incoherent. As I have stated before atheists/deists are very confused about their beliefs in general. From many of the debates and discussions ive had and heard of atheists/deists then they will keep changing and contradicting themselves with regards to their beliefs. They will keep swaying from here to there not knowing what direction they are going. Surely you do not want to spend your life like this? Constantly swaying from here to there and having incoherent contradictory baseless beliefs. At least if you follow Islam you will have a fully established, authenticated and coherent belief system which is fully backed by divine wisdom.

You talk about politics but secularism is the religion for those without a religion. Secularism breeds the nastiest and most selfish and evil politics known to mankind. For themn this world is a stage play. They will split up the people by dividing them into left and right, conservative, liberal and republicans etc. Essentially all of these political parties are the same, they are just different sides of the same coin. They use media propaganda to put fear into society as they see it as the best way of controlling it. Hence why they use the "divide and conquer" rule. They care not about the people - you and me do not matter to them, we are just pawns. This is your secular system of freedom and separation of religion from state. You seperate God from state and you will invite the enemy of man - shaythan to run the state as he is doing in the world today where we have unimaginabley corrupt governments and leaders . A system only in it for the elite. A system full of liars, cheats and frauds. They commit the worse atrocities known to mankind and then people have the audacity to blame their terrible crimes and evil on God. Shame on those people.

Ever thought about deism? Pantheism? Even Einstein said the question about the existence of god is the hardest one and will always be. The very man who discovered e=mc2. The part in his brain responsible for conceptualizing physics problems was bigger than an average person. And he wasn't an atheist. nor he doesn't wish to be worshipped. He even said a god doesn't play dice. Anyway, I'm still searching and I don't want to talk too much about something I'm not finished on. I'm not your typical atheist. But anyway I want to thank some of the infos you gave me, it will still add up to my knowledge somehow, so I will look them up later.

Kazu I do not put my faith in a created human. I put my faith in the one who created the human. I do not put my faith in humans that make baseless assumptions as to why we are here, whether it is deism, atheism etc but I put my belief in a caring God that has given us all the guidance we require to succeed in this life and the next. What you believe is totally up to you, but know that you will have no excuse in front of Allah for rejecting belief due to your sheer arrogance in blaming God for his divine wisdom in matters you do not understand.

Again, why? why? don't you think this is one-sided ? Pls think about this. This isn't the way to reach out to people like me out there.

There is no other side that has any substance whatsoever. All of your arguments against God and the wisdom of God are emotion based, incoherent and you are swaying from here to there in confusion not knowing what direction you are going in. You blame God for things that you perceive have gone wrong in your life and for the bad things that happen in the world. But you blame not the fact that it is humans with free will who are doing the bad things.

But I leave you with this - The only way you will believe is to totally submit your will unto God, act with utter humility, meekness and humbleness towards him and accept his divine wisdom in that just like there are so many things we do not understand about his creations in the Universe and Earth, then similarly why do we need to understand his full divine wisdom behind everything in order to accept his divine wisdom? Surely he will inform us properly on the day of Judgement as to the divine wisdom of everything we never understood but for now we must go through life treating it as a test, knowing we will eventually face God and be accountable for all of our actions.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes exactly. I didn't realized this when I first posted in the forum. But I understand that. I understand people here can't speak about something beyond their limit as a muslim, so I won't have a proper argument in a muslim forum. But I appreciate the replies, it will still add up to my knowledge. Maybe after this I'll go search for an agnostic forum, I don't know if there's one. However these people had spent their time reading my posts and gave their thoughts , so out of courtesy I'll reply a bit.

It is not that Muslims in this forum or any other cannot speak beyond their limit as a Muslim, but it is that we acknowledge and humble ourselves unto our creator knowing that only he knows best and that we are totally reliant upon him. You can argue all you want with people about faith and belief as you have been doing for many years now but it will not get rid of the void, guilt and absence from your heart unless ad until you believe.

You will just continue "arguing" and debating with people your entire life until death overcomes you. Then it will not be you who has won but your enemy shaythan. This is shaythan greatest aim to mae sure we die without believing in God or associate partners unto him.

Many atheists and those without belief come to forums and argue and debate with people because they know they are not satisfied with what they believe so they argue and debate with people of belief to try and some how justify their beliefs and to fill in the emptiness and void within their hearts but no that they will never be satisfied and never will their emptiness and void be filled with anything other than the belief of God and total submission unto him.

Please watch the following video which is very relevant to your situation:

From strong Atheist to Islam:

From Islam to Atheism Then Back to Islam

Muslim who turned to be atheist and back to Islam

 

[Kazu]

There is always a correlation of thinking with those who have lost faith and those who are losing it - they blame God for things that have gone wrong in their lives. Instead of considering there is a divine wisdom behind it and actually many people after having gone through such experiences always come out at the end accepting there was a profound wisdom behind it all. But those people who after going through any type of trial, hardship and adversity become weak and succumb to the whispers of shaythan and their desires and start blaming God for what they are going through. As I have stated before and I will state again that such people have deficiencies in their heart that just grew as time and experiences went on. Allah knows you better than you know yourself and he is aware of the blame you put on him for the experiences you have gone through in life.

Wow. You just don't get it do you? Reading your reply, you're a really really religious guy. You put your utmost faith in Allah. I salute this

Secularism is the religion for those without a religion. Secularism breeds nasty politics. Dividing people into left and right, conservative, liberal, republicans etc. When actually they are all essentially the same, just different sides of the same coin. They use media propaganda to put fear into society as they see it as the best way of controlling it. Hence why they use the "divide and conquer" rule. They care not about the people - you and me do not matter to them. We are just pawns. This is your secular system that you support. A system only in it for the elite. A system full of liars. They commit the worse atrocities known to mankind and then people like you have the audacity to blame their terrible crimes on God. Shame on those people.

You do know Islam gave rise to many different sects and madhabs, they conquer, divide, and rule. Not much different from secularism eh? Sure madhabs is not in the quran or hadeeth but Islam's direct impact on the society did gave rise to this. Even as muslims under quran, they hate each other, they kill each other, all because of these different sects. I'm one example of its victim. Then the muslims will just throw in "this is the shayateens.." it sounds so much like a big cop-out. I left Islam but Islam won't just leave me alone. So much for prochoice the moderate muslims keep supporting. When a system is a success (ofcourse its gonna have some flaws in it, but insignificant), then you will thank and continue to support this system. But when it doesn't, you'll say it's just failure big time although the system can still be improved but with great efforts.

And yes, I do get emotional when things doesn't go my way, if I don't admit this then I'm a liar. Who doesn't get emotional? But intellectually speaking, I don't make it an argument to somehow add up to my list of why religion is not true because this doesn't correlates with who I am/because how it makes me feel. That's a different story.

And the rest of your points... I'm not trying to convince you AT ALL into joining my 'secularism'/agnosticism/atheism, or whatever it is. So I don't want you to feel threatened, but I believe you don't feel it at all, after all I'm the one who's lost here, and I believe your faith is very strong to be shaken by the likes of me. All I'm trying to achieve here is to get you on the same page as me before trying to get into discussing islam at all. I watched a youtube video on Sheikh Ahmad Deedat lecture, I don't remember which, but he said this "atheism/agnosticism is the first step to Islam, because 'La ila ha illallah' There is no god, but Allah" . But intellectually speaking, you already equate 'Islam' being 'the neutral state' but Sheikh Ahmad Deedat believed agnosticism/atheism is the 'neutral state' so intellectually speaking this isn't a good tactic to engage in discussion with non-muslims. This is what I'm trying to get at. I hope you'll understand.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kazu; I hope you are well,

but in the back of my head, there are just some things I can't ignore.

Now are these thoughts in your head, because you put them there? Or would it make more sense, that Allah wants you to keep searching, so Allah has planted these seeds in your mind in ways that are difficult to ignore.

Now 2 years after finishing my studies, I wanted to address these questions I had and as usual, at first I'm feeling this guilt again, it's just a natural reaction because I'm leaving something I've held in my heart all of my life.

I have heard these feelings described not so much as guilt, but rather as your life feeling incomplete. Everyone has a 'God Hole in their heart'. If you try filling this hole with money, relationships, possessions, jobs, etc, the God hole remains empty, and life seems to lack meaning. You can only fill this gap with Allah.

You come across as a caring person, who is passionate about justice, compassion and kindness. If you study the 99 names of Allah and reflect on their meaning, this might help you in your search.

May you be blessed and be a blessing to those you love and care for.

Eric

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

You do know Islam gave rise to many different sects and madhabs, they conquer, divide, and rule. Not much different from secularism eh? Sure madhabs is not in the quran or hadeeth but Islam's direct impact on the society did gave rise to this. Even as muslims under quran, they hate each other, they kill each other, all because of these different sects. I'm one example of its victim. Then the muslims will just throw in "this is the shayateens.." it sounds so much like a big cop-out. I left Islam but Islam won't just leave me alone. So much for prochoice the moderate muslims keep supporting. When a system is a success (ofcourse its gonna have some flaws in it, but insignificant), then you will thank and continue to support this system. But when it doesn't, you'll say it's just failure big time although the system can still be improved but with great efforts.

I was actually in the process of editing my thread when you replied and have included some very relevant videos for you to watch at the end of my last post.

Firstly Kazu my posts are not to show my religiosity or unshaken belief. It is to try and convince you to tackle the root of your problem in order to get your imaan back and to show you that Islam is the true way and only way for you to get rid of your feelings of being lost, confused and the emptiness and void that you have in your life.

It is clear in your statement that you do not have adequate understand of what a Madhab is. Madhabs do not "split" or "divide" people like sects do. In fact a Madhab is just an understanding and a path through the Qur'an and Sunnah from slightly different angles. This shows the wonders of human intelligence in that Allah has enabled us to think rationally and in slightly different angles but at the same time in acceptable ways. With regards to sects then there are only two main sects in Islam, Sunni being the majority and Shia the minority. Any other so called "sect" is rejected as being non Muslim. As oppose to other religions like Christianity for example which have many tens of sects and denominations all differing from their fundamental beliefs.

But Allah calls upon Muslims to unite and not disunite or split apart:

And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. (3;103)

If people are hating and killing each other then this is clear evil that they are committing with their own hands which they will be accountable for. People do not just kill one another for religious reasons but for all kinds of reasons like nationalism, political and many many others.

Which system are you referring to is a "success?

And yes, I do get emotional when things doesn't go my way, if I don't admit this then I'm a liar. Who doesn't get emotional? But intellectually speaking, I don't make it an argument to somehow add up to my list of why religion is not true because this doesn't correlates with who I am/because how it makes me feel. That's a different story.

We all vent when we are angry but why should we vent our anger, bitterness and hatred towards our creator for things we perceive have gone wrong in our lives and in the world? You have clearly made statements referring to your anger towards God for bad things that have happened in your life and in the world and that you found "flaws" in Gods wisdom in Islamic teachings as to the main reasons why you left Islam.

So your reasons for having left the belief in God and in Islam are merely based upon your emotions and not in a rational or logical sense at all.

And the rest of your points... I'm not trying to convince you AT ALL into joining my 'secularism'/agnosticism/atheism, or whatever it is. So I don't want you to feel threatened, but I believe you don't feel it at all, after all I'm the one who's lost here, and I believe your faith is very strong to be shaken by the likes of me. All I'm trying to achieve here is to get you on the same page as me before trying to get into discussing islam at all. I watched a youtube video on Sheikh Ahmad Deedat lecture, I don't remember which, but he said this "atheism/agnosticism is the first step to Islam, because 'La ila ha illallah' There is no god, but Allah" . But intellectually speaking, you already equate 'Islam' being 'the neutral state' but Sheikh Ahmad Deedat believed agnosticism/atheism is the 'neutral state' so intellectually speaking this isn't a good tactic to engage in discussion with non-muslims. This is what I'm trying to get at. I hope you'll understand.

I never said once you are trying to convince me or anyone else, but you are here trying to convince and justify your lack of belief to yourself. Kazu I believe you can believe again just like many people who go out of Islam and they come back again but this time you need to tackle the root of the problems head on and ensure they never arise again. I believe the root of the problems were always there but due to some experiences they were allowed to flourish and unfortunately caused you to lose your imaan.

Kazu I get where you are in your beliefs but I am trying to get you to where you were before when you were a Muslim and where we are as Muslims. Also know that a true Muslim will always equate Islam as to the "only way". Therefore no Muslim can be at your "neutral" point. In fact no follower of a organised religion can be at your neutral point. Only someone with no faith can be where you are.

Kazu you have spent so long trying to convince people to be "where you are". But you cannot expect other people to be confused in belief like you are. None of us can guide you. We can only advise you and ask God to guide you. Guidance is only in his hands. You can continue going from forum to forum arguing and discussing your lack of belief with people after people but you will never progress or eradicate your problems if you do not tackle the root of your problems first.

What the Sheikh was referring to is that it is a good starting point with atheists/agnostics to be at a point where we all believe "There is no God" and the rest is to convince such people to believe in the second part of the Shahada "...except Allah", and to then convince them of the revelation and guidance of God unto mankind and in his last Messenger.

 

[Kazu]

Now are these thoughts in your head, because you put them there? Or would it make more sense, that Allah wants you to keep searching, so Allah has planted these seeds in your mind in ways that are difficult to ignore.

Greetings..peace be upon you.

I wondered about that. But it can also be a natural reaction to it because you're letting go something you've hold on for a long time. This is just one possibility. For example, I'm used to eating chicken but one day my mother forbids me doing so because she wants me to go vegan. Of course I'll be like NO. But she keeps insisting and I say yeah I'll do it. It'll feel really weird not eating chicken on a daily basis, and this I relate with my situation. This is just a possibility.

I have heard these feelings described not so much as guilt, but rather as your life feeling incomplete. Everyone has a 'God Hole in their heart'. If you try filling this hole with money, relationships, possessions, jobs, etc, the God hole remains empty, and life seems to lack meaning. You can only fill this gap with Allah.

Yes, surprisingly, I do agree with you. The human mind will always wonder and be amazed by the unknown. Humans will always want to believe in something greater, superstitious being, that's looking down on everyone/to keep records/to manage, this world. Because humans by nature are helpless creatures on their own, they need other people to support each other, and this case with God, is the particular being that will always care about what you do and give guidance wherever,whoever you are. Who wouldn't want such a being to exist? This is what I call 'The God Void'. Humans don't want to be left alone hopeless and helpless, even in presence of people one can even feel so alone. I'll give an example, it is my very core of nature to have a companion/need/lust/love/dependency for a partner, but however much I invest effort in search for one, in keeping the relationship, improving myself, even crying and waiting for days, he'll not be here for me. But if I keep on and changing my strategy, maybe there's one for me one lucky day. But, maybe I can't get one in this life, maybe I'll die young. I can only keep dreaming on getting my partner. The 'Human Love Void' will not be filled and my life lacks meaning forever. Lets pretend He does exist, but I'll die young without knowing he existed.

- - - Updated - - -

Therefore no Muslim can be at your "neutral" point

Yes you can't. But you can understand it at least.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Yes you can't. But you can understand it at least.

Kazu no one with firm faith who remains firm on that faith will ever know what it feels like to be in disbelief. May Allah never put any of us in such a situation.

Your "neutral point" is our disbelief. So how can you expect a Muslim or anyone with firm faith understand disbelief? Unless they have been where you are now. But even then no one can convince you of anything or change your heart or guide you to imaan except that they can give you their advice's as we have done.

I hope you can ponder and reflect over our advice's to you in this thread. I wish you all the best and I pray that Allah guides you to Imaan and enables you to eradicate the root of your problems so that disbelief never returns to your heart again. Ameen

All the best

 

[Kazu]

Kazu no one with firm faith who remains firm on that faith will ever know what it feels like to be in disbelief. May Allah never put any of us in such a situation.

Your "neutral point" is our disbelief. So how can you expect a Muslim or anyone with firm faith understand disbelief? Unless they have been where you are now. But even then no one can convince you of anything or change your heart or guide you to imaan except that they can give you their advice's as we have done.

I hope you can ponder and reflect over our advice's to you in this thread. I wish you all the best and I pray that Allah guides you to Imaan and enables you to eradicate the root of your problems so that disbelief never returns to your heart again. Ameen

All the best

I expected this would be your reply. I understand you mean well. I won't say "muslims are so deluded because they believe in Allah and prophet that do this so and so..". It's just too easy to say "how can atheists believe in absurd theory multiverse?". It's just too easy to say "trinity just doesn't make sense,how can anyone in their sane mind believes this?" It's just too easy to say "how can hindu worship a cow?" , all without examining them and putting yourselves in their place first. This doesn't mean you should abandon your belief, but, just try to understand it why they believe what they believe. I once said to my friends "do you ever try to imagine being born non-muslim? And then would you convert to islam?" At this time I was a devout muslim. It's just a method for me to check if I'm a true believer or not. And they can't grasp this, how can they do this while being a muslim, they say.

After my apostasy, I met a guy online who had just converted to islam from christianity, we chatted with this one islamic apologist who keeps spamming me quran quotes, linking me the context, and explaining them at the same time. Then this newly converted guy pm-ed me "he can keep spamming all he wants, but I know it won't help you" He understood me. We became friends. We understood each other why we're at where we at. I have so much respect for him.

 

[STN]

@Kazu

I hope you read my post with some thought and not skim over it. Because i just had an epiphany, a realization after reading the first page completely and skimming through the rest of the thread and i realized there is one problem atheists, agnostics, disbelievers have and there is NO WAY they can ever believe if they hold on to that problem, that thinking. I believe this is Shaytaan's trick or maybe just human's stupidity or both but arguing with few atheists now, i see this problem and it is in you.

Are you still reading me?

I can write and write and write about how with complete certainty Allah exists and Prophet Mohammad(SAWW) the last messenger, SubhanAllah everything screams of Allah's existence and as i learn more about the world, my faith becomes stronger and stronger, May Allah keep increasing my faith.

But sister, it will not have an effect on you...not an atom's worth.

I can refute your argument with so much logic that you will stupid but then you will come up with another argument and i will do the same and so on and so forth. This is not going to have an effect on you.

You know why all of this is futile? It's for one simple reason

These are my words, a human's words. I can't convince someone to give me a 100 dollar donation even if my life depended on it, how in the hell will i convince someone to have faith.

And that's when i realized what the solution is.

Read the Holy Quran WITH UNDERSTANDING

I have not seen a single atheist attempt to refute Holy Quran. Why not? WHY is it so difficult to find one contradiction in a book revealed in 600AD era to an illiterate man Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) in an era of ignorance.

Science has advanced so much, why is this book still superior to science?

How is it still preserved.

How is everything it said being confirmed to be accurate with today's science (embryology, astronomy, m theory, multiverses, - http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links )

Why hasn't there been another book created that is similar to this one? You know how many years, era, civilizations have passed from 7th century to 2017 ? How many enemies of Islams have died who tried their best?

You know i am a born Muslim الحمد لله and i have been practicing as a kid then not so much and you know what brought me back to Islam ? The Holy Quran and of course Allah's guidance, someone showed me a video how Holy Quran describes black holes, i was shocked.

All reading isn't the same, you must have just recited the words when your heart was being swayed by Kufar...that isn't going to do you any good. Read WITH UNDERSTANDING

Read tafsir of Ayats and the full context of it.


But like i said, my words aren't going to have any effect.

It's pathetic honestly, every atheist says oh i am looking for the truth but they will not read the Holy Quran or even try to refute it. Go and do it, try to understand and then refute it if you can. You will fail miserably and scream لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله because Holy Quran is a miracle and it is from Allah.

But nope, the atheists love to argue...big bang bla bla. Right, explain Holy Quran to me. Leave the universe you geniuses, explain this book to me that is right in front of you!, explain it if you can.

Nope, big bang bla bla, monkeys to humans so how come the bacteria and fungi and virus (especially HIV) who evolve in a matter of seconds never evolved to a human? or something else? Like from Adam(A.S) to 2017, bacteria have been evolving, their evolution isn't slow like ours...it's rapid (ever heard of drug resistance?) so how come they haven't evolved to something else in all this time? The Shaytaan says to atheist oh ----, this guy knows his ----...lets switch to another stupid argument

the big bang bla bla

Honestly, this is all they have to go on. And you know why this works so well for them ? Because it is in past and they know nobody can prove or refute it with science.

-----------------------

I am still going to answer somethings in your question that i also thought about and then as i grew up, i answered for myself.

How hard is it to believe in Allah ? لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله Are these words so hard ? But of course to an oppressor and kafir, these are. Think about this, you are blindly believing a man's blabber of atheism about big bang, about evolution but you are denying the Creator Allah who is worthy of ALL PRAISE and you don't even acknowledge Him (Nauzbillah). What has men left you? And what has Allah (SWT) left you? The Holy Quran - a miracle of miracles yet you deny it without even researching it.

You deny it without even researching it, if that is not an unjustice of the extreme kind then i don't know what is. It is an oppression on your soul and why? Have you tried to explain how Holy Quran is still existing, have you thought about it and tried to understand it ? I know you haven't. You will spend more time and effort on useless worldly things.

If i create something (and i or any human isn't able to) but suppose i did and it tried to do whatever it came to its mind, you know what i would do ? Smash it into so many pieces. Ponder upon this, your deviant behavior and attitude, has anything happened to you ? NO Allah (SWT) is still giving and giving and giving until there will come a time when He will ask you and that's Judgement Day.

Other members explained martyrdom for people unjustly died and oh what a great rank and status that is. May Allah grant me martyrdom, Ameen.

Oh in the end, you are very wrong about muslims blindly following Islam. I wasn't a practicing Muslim until i turned 28, nobody forced me to, i wish it had been sooner, i was i was practicing since the day i first gained consciousness.

My advice to you is go and look in the world. Go and wander in the earth, visit places, look at the stars and the sky. Sit in a place for 30 minutes and ponder about the world, can you find it in yourself to believe that this majestic universe came into existence by itself?

- - - Updated - - -

@Kazu

I hope you read my post with some thought and not skim over it. Because i just had an epiphany, a realization after reading the first page completely and skimming through the rest of the thread and i realized there is one problem atheists, agnostics, disbelievers have and there is NO WAY they can ever believe if they hold on to that problem, that thinking. I believe this is Shaytaan's trick or maybe just human's stupidity or both but arguing with few atheists now, i see this problem and it is in you.

Are you still reading me?

I can write and write and write about how with complete certainty Allah exists and Prophet Mohammad(SAWW) the last messenger, SubhanAllah everything screams of Allah's existence and as i learn more about the world, my faith becomes stronger and stronger, May Allah keep increasing my faith.

But sister, it will not have an effect on you...not an atom's worth.

I can refute your argument with so much logic that you will stupid but then you will come up with another argument and i will do the same and so on and so forth. This is not going to have an effect on you.

You know why all of this is futile? It's for one simple reason

These are my words, a human's words. I can't convince someone to give me a 100 dollar donation even if my life depended on it, how in the hell will i convince someone to have faith.

And that's when i realized what the solution is.

Read the Holy Quran WITH UNDERSTANDING

I have not seen a single atheist attempt to refute Holy Quran. Why not? WHY is it so difficult to find one contradiction in a book revealed in 600AD era to an illiterate man Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) in an era of ignorance.

Science has advanced so much, why is this book still superior to science?

How is it still preserved.

How is everything it said being confirmed to be accurate with today's science (embryology, astronomy, m theory, multiverses, - http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links )

Why hasn't there been another book created that is similar to this one? You know how many years, era, civilizations have passed from 7th century to 2017 ? How many enemies of Islams have died who tried their best?

You know i am a born Muslim الحمد لله and i have been practicing as a kid then not so much and you know what brought me back to Islam ? The Holy Quran and of course Allah's guidance, someone showed me a video how Holy Quran describes black holes, i was shocked.

All reading isn't the same, you must have just recited the words when your heart was being swayed by Kufar...that isn't going to do you any good. Read WITH UNDERSTANDING

Read tafsir of Ayats and the full context of it.


But like i said, my words aren't going to have any effect.

It's pathetic honestly, every atheist says oh i am looking for the truth but they will not read the Holy Quran or even try to refute it. Go and do it, try to understand and then refute it if you can. You will fail miserably and scream لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله because Holy Quran is a miracle and it is from Allah.

But nope, the atheists love to argue...big bang bla bla. Right, explain Holy Quran to me. Leave the universe you geniuses, explain this book to me that is right in front of you!, explain it if you can.

Nope, big bang bla bla, monkeys to humans so how come the bacteria and fungi and virus (especially HIV) who evolve in a matter of seconds never evolved to a human? or something else? Like from Adam(A.S) to 2017, bacteria have been evolving, their evolution isn't slow like ours...it's rapid (ever heard of drug resistance?) so how come they haven't evolved to something else in all this time? The Shaytaan says to atheist oh ----, this guy knows his ----...lets switch to another stupid argument

the big bang bla bla

Honestly, this is all they have to go on. And you know why this works so well for them ? Because it is in past and they know nobody can prove or refute it with science.

-----------------------

I am still going to answer somethings in your question that i also thought about and then as i grew up, i answered for myself.

How hard is it to believe in Allah ? لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله Are these words so hard ? But of course to an oppressor and kafir, these are. Think about this, you are blindly believing a man's blabber of atheism about big bang, about evolution but you are denying the Creator Allah who is worthy of ALL PRAISE and you don't even acknowledge Him (Nauzbillah). What has men left you? And what has Allah (SWT) left you? The Holy Quran - a miracle of miracles yet you deny it without even researching it.

You deny it without even researching it, if that is not an unjustice of the extreme kind then i don't know what is. It is an oppression on your soul and why? Have you tried to explain how Holy Quran is still existing, have you thought about it and tried to understand it ? I know you haven't. You will spend more time and effort on useless worldly things.

If i create something (and i or any human isn't able to) but suppose i did and it tried to do whatever it came to its mind, you know what i would do ? Smash it into so many pieces. Ponder upon this, your deviant behavior and attitude, has anything happened to you ? NO Allah (SWT) is still giving and giving and giving until there will come a time when He will ask you and that's Judgement Day.

Other members explained martyrdom for people unjustly died and oh what a great rank and status that is. May Allah grant me martyrdom, Ameen.

Oh in the end, you are very wrong about muslims blindly following Islam. I wasn't a practicing Muslim until i turned 28, nobody forced me to, i wish it had been sooner, i was i was practicing since the day i first gained consciousness.

My advice to you is go and look in the world. Go and wander in the earth, visit places, look at the stars and the sky. Sit in a place for 30 minutes and ponder about the world, can you find it in yourself to believe that this majestic universe came into existence by itself?

- - - Updated - - -

Some parts of my post got double posted, wish there was an ability to edit posts

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I expected this would be your reply. I understand you mean well. I won't say "muslims are so deluded because they believe in Allah and prophet that do this so and so..". It's just too easy to say "how can atheists believe in absurd theory multiverse?". It's just too easy to say "trinity just doesn't make sense,how can anyone in their sane mind believes this?" It's just too easy to say "how can hindu worship a cow?" , all without examining them and putting yourselves in their place first. This doesn't mean you should abandon your belief, but, just try to understand it why they believe what they believe. I once said to my friends "do you ever try to imagine being born non-muslim? And then would you convert to islam?" At this time I was a devout muslim. It's just a method for me to check if I'm a true believer or not. And they can't grasp this, how can they do this while being a muslim, they say.

After my apostasy, I met a guy online who had just converted to islam from christianity, we chatted with this one islamic apologist who keeps spamming me quran quotes, linking me the context, and explaining them at the same time. Then this newly converted guy pm-ed me "he can keep spamming all he wants, but I know it won't help you" He understood me. We became friends. We understood each other why we're at where we at. I have so much respect for him.

It's as if your saying that Muslims don't "understand" other beliefs hence why they are so firm in believing what they do. Is it not possible to "understand" a belief and reject it just as you "understood" and have rejected? Are you seriously saying that all "born" Muslims have never doubted their faith hence never looked into other beliefs and faiths before solidifying their own beliefs? That is certainly not the case. I can say for certain that many Muslims look into other faiths and beliefs before coming to the conclusion that Islam is without doubt the truth.

Why do more people than any other faith or belief (or lack of belief) revert to Islam? Many of them have come from Hinduism, mostly from Christianity, Buddhism and many also from Atheism/agnosticism/deism. They "fully" understood disbelief and aspects of disbelief in what you mentioned ie Trinity, pantheism, reincarnation, atheistic/deistic beliefs but they found the truth in Islam.

Now you could say that you left Islam for whatever reason because you disbelieved in aspects of it. But clearly by your own words you are not satisfied with your current beliefs and that is why you claim you are here. You talk of "guilt" and feeling that you want to believe, go to heaven etc.

So I do not understand what else you are looking for? Will you continue the cycle of going from forum to forum and debating with one person after another in endless to and froms which will be of no avail?

As I keep saying to you that if you really want to "believe" again then you must get to the root of your problems deep in your heart as to why you disbelieve and what is it that in your heart that is rejecting belief in Allah and his divine wisdom. Otherwise you will continue in this cycle of guilt, emptiness and a void in your heart.

We cannot guide you to imaan but we can advise you as we have done as to what steps to take to find imaan. If you say Muslims should get to your "neutral" point which is disbelief then this will never happen because we are and always will be firm in our beliefs. But we have tried our best to try and make you see sense. But we cannot unseal anyone's heart.

Only you can make the necessary effort to find belief by opening your heart in terms of totally submitting your will to Allah like you did before and accepting his divine wisdom. If you are not willing to do that then I really do not know what else you are looking for.

 

[Patrick84]

The three monotheistic faiths spread across different parts of the world, all claiming one message, and that to submit to the one God. Some of them even confirming each others scriptures - surely there is some sort of truth ther?

So criminals murders rapists etc who have never been brought to justice that are roaming the earth, will just be let off scott free? They will just die and not be brought to justice? Should we all begin living like animals then? How do we then define what is right and wrong? Is it just plain human instincts, morals and values? Why can I just not go around and sleep with anyone and spread my STIs, cause corruption in the land, rip people off, steal, make millions of dollars, secretly kill and burn people I don't like and not get caught.



What's going to happen to me? absolutely nothing? Gosh, this sounds too good to be true. I guess we only live once, so make the most of it yeah?


Remember, it is about faith, imaan, believing in the unseen. We all have doubts about our faith whether be it very small amount - but this is what faith is, there are peaks and troughs, this is the challenge, the inner struggle we all go through.


Sure, maybe according to you nothing will happen - we may not come before God on the day of Judgement - lets say this is very much possible.


But what also is very much possible, something billions of people across the world claim to have have some sort of "evidence" of, is that we may come before God. So what would you rather do? I know what I would do, and that is cover my bases, and believe in the unseen.