If were not supposed to pay for other peoples sin's why are we paying for Adam's?

[AhmedSon]

Salam,
I have been told that Allah does not punish others for other people's sins. Well I have a question, Adam AS sinned by eating the forbidden Apple. He was sent to Earth as punishment but why am I here on Earth.

How is it fair that everyone should pay by living on Earth for Adam's sin. And also please don't say Allah put us here because Shaytaan challenged him by saying he would make us go astray, Shaytaan did a sin but why should I be punished for his sin. Why should I have all these temptations.

Also I do believe in Islam and I AM NOT TRYING TO CHALLENGE ISLAM but I honestly can't understand this and need some help. I'm finding it hard to cope with so many temptations and I don't think its fair.

Also if Allah is the most merciful why will he punish kufar in hell for the rest of their lives just because the only Islam they knew was the one they saw on Fox News.

Please help me!

 

[ion that dinar]

Salams.


Interesting question and a well clarified answer.


Mind if another input was added to all of this?




The questioner seems to be thinking outside of the box, "why has Almighty God not placed me here like Adam and asked me not to approach a tree?". That being the case, maybe he wouldn't do it and therefore be sin-free and worry-free of committing a sin, because that's the only thing that he was told not to do.


In order to understand easier, it's best to apply some necessary facts.

Adam and Eve were perfect beings, speaking the perfect language, behaving perfectly and knowing the names of everything. Their morals were above perfect, without any knowledge of how foul a human mind can be. Unlike todays generation for example, where people ask the silliest questions while neglecting the commandments they learned from the Blessed Quran.

So being perfect as they are, they were prohibited from approaching a "tree", and not from hurting each other or any of the things that people these days have a hard time staying away from.


All of this took place on earth, so sinning was already possible. Allah Almighty did say after they committed the sin that they will be enemies to each other on earth for a while. But one should not blame Adam for all of mankind living in a place where evil exists.


But why not right? That was after all declared after he sinned.

The question has already been answered though, sinning was already possible. So because they sinned, they were simply the first to be informed of this "enmity" between humans, which is for the most part stirred up by invisible demonic forces (Shaitans).


Hopefully this clarified some things.

Peace.

 

[heisone1]

This section of the forum is very important. Many of our false beliefs lead us to doubt things. Its good to clarify it.

 

[Nur Student]

What wisdom does it spring from, Adam (Upon whom be peace) being expelled from Paradise and some of mankind, the sons of Adam, being sent to Hell? What was the reason for it?

T h e A n s w e r : The reason for it concerns the charging of duties: the duty with which Adam was charged yielded such results as the unfolding of all human spiritual progress and the revealing of all human potentialities and man’s essential nature being a comprehensive mirror to all the divine names. If he had remained in Paradise, his rank would have been fixed like that of the angels; man’s potentialities would not have been disclosed. In any case, the angels, with their unchanging ranks, are numerous and there is no need for man to perform their sort of worship. Since divine wisdom required a realm of accountability commensurate with the potentialities of man, who would traverse infinite degrees, he was expelled from Paradise for his well-known sin, sin being the requirement of human nature and contrary to that of the angels. That is to say, just as it was pure wisdom and pure mercy that Adam should be expelled from Paradise, so is it just and right that the unbelievers should be sent to Hell.

The unbeliever only committed only one sin in his short life, but the sin comprised infinite wrongdoing. For unbelief is an insult to the whole universe; it negates the value of all beings, it denies the testimony to divine unity of all creatures, and is contempt towards the divine names, the manifestations of which are to be seen in the mirrors of beings. Therefore, in order to avenge the rights of beings on the unbeliever, their monarch, the All-Compelling One of Glory, casts the unbelievers into Hell, and this is pure right and justice. For an infinite crime demands infinite punishment. ~ Bediuzzaman

 

[observer]

What wisdom does it spring from, Adam (Upon whom be peace) being expelled from Paradise and some of mankind, the sons of Adam, being sent to Hell? What was the reason for it?

T h e A n s w e r : The reason for it concerns the charging of duties: the duty with which Adam was charged yielded such results as the unfolding of all human spiritual progress and the revealing of all human potentialities and man’s essential nature being a comprehensive mirror to all the divine names. If he had remained in Paradise, his rank would have been fixed like that of the angels; man’s potentialities would not have been disclosed. In any case, the angels, with their unchanging ranks, are numerous and there is no need for man to perform their sort of worship. Since divine wisdom required a realm of accountability commensurate with the potentialities of man, who would traverse infinite degrees, he was expelled from Paradise for his well-known sin, sin being the requirement of human nature and contrary to that of the angels. That is to say, just as it was pure wisdom and pure mercy that Adam should be expelled from Paradise, so is it just and right that the unbelievers should be sent to Hell.

The unbeliever only committed only one sin in his short life, but the sin comprised infinite wrongdoing. For unbelief is an insult to the whole universe; it negates the value of all beings, it denies the testimony to divine unity of all creatures, and is contempt towards the divine names, the manifestations of which are to be seen in the mirrors of beings. Therefore, in order to avenge the rights of beings on the unbeliever, their monarch, the All-Compelling One of Glory, casts the unbelievers into Hell, and this is pure right and justice. For an infinite crime demands infinite punishment. ~ Bediuzzaman

I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?

 

[جوري]

How is that justice?

asking for forgiveness doesn't exempt one from paying for their sins for instance one who has murdered and is found guilty should be sentenced to death-- whether or not their repentance is sincere that is an issue between them and God in the hereafter .. also we don't know whether or not sins are forgiven that is contingent upon many things as stated sincerity of repentance is one of them..
what is a greater conundrum to me is how an atheist can live committing sins, getting away with it with no worldly justice and then dying and not having to be accountable to any of it!

best,

 

[Hulk]

I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?

Before you say that the argument is "interesting" or say "How is that justice?", do you first know what are the criterion in Islam for someone to be accepted into heaven? or sent into hell? Seems that you don't, so how then can you say "Now according to Islam", when you lack basic knowledge of such things?

Shouldn't you first ask about the criterions first before putting forth the "argument"?

Is it not possible that a person could live his whole life in darkness and only find light right before he dies? And is it not possible that a person could spend each day doing a lot of good for others and yet his intention all along merely to make a name for himself or anything other than what is sincere? There are so many possible contexts that you ignore, so it is hard (for me at least) to give a short and direct response.

 

[observer]

Shouldn't you first ask about the criterions first before putting forth the "argument"?

I thought I'd done so by asking if my statement was correct - apologies if that wasn't clear. I've read on here about the idea of conversion erasing sins so was asking based on that.

Does conversion wash you clean of your sins?

 

[جوري]

Does conversion wash you clean of your sins?

I have answered that question for you already. We've no way of splitting open people's chests and seeing what lies in their hearts!

 

[Nur Student]

I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?

Belief is not simply to utter a few words of shaadah (testimony), but a talisman that transforms the hearts and minds completely. I will further clarify this statement if you ask. Yet, what I want to focus on now is the nature of unbelief, how a great crime it is, and why it necessitates an infinite Hell.

There is no contradiction between the existence and ghastly torments of Hell, and infinite mercy, true justice, and wisdom with its balance and absence of waste. Indeed, mercy, justice, and wisdom require its existence. For to punish a tyrant who tramples the rights of a thousand innocents and to kill a savage animal who tears to pieces a hundred cowed animals, is for the oppressed a thousandfold mercy within justice. While to pardon the tyrant and leave the savage beast free, is for hundreds of wretches a hundredfold pitilessness in place of that single act of misplaced mercy.

Similarly, among those who will enter Hell is the absolute disbeliever. For through his disbelief and denial he both transgresses the rights of the Divine Names, and through denying the testimony of beings to those Names, he transgresses their rights, and by denying the elevated duties of glorification of creatures before the Divine Names he violates their rights, and through denying their being mirrors to and responding with worship to the manifestation of Divine dominicality, which is the purpose of the universe’s creation and a reason for its existence and continuance, he transgresses their rights in a way. His disbelief is therefore a crime and wrong of such vast proportions it may not be forgiven, and deserves the threat of the verse,

God forgives not [the sin of] joining other gods with Him. (Qur’an, 4:48, 116)

Not to cast him into Hell would comprise innumerable instances of mercilessness to innumerable claimants whose rights had been transgressed, in place of a single misplaced act of mercy. Just as those claimants demand the existence of Hell, so do Divine dignity and majesty, and tremendousness and perfection most certainly demand it.

Yes, if a worthless rebel who assaults the people says to the proud ruler of the place: “You can’t put me in prison!”, affronting his dignity, if there is not a prison in the town, the ruler will have one made just to throw the ill-mannered wretch into it. In just the same way, through his disbelief the absolute disbeliever affronts seriously the dignity of Divine glory, and through his denial offends the splendour of His power, and through his aggression disturbs the perfection of His dominicality. Even if there were not many things necessitating the functions of Hell and many reasons for and instances of wisdom in its existence, it is the mark of that dignity and glory to create a Hell for disbelievers such as that, and to cast them into it.

Moreover, even the nature of disbelief makes known Hell. Yes, just as if the true nature of belief was to be embodied, it could with its pleasures take on the form of a private paradise, and in this respect gives secret news of Paradise; so disbelief, and especially absolute disbelief, and dissembling, and apostasy, are the cause of such dark and awful pains and spiritual torment that if they were to be embodied, they would become a private Hell for the apostate, and in this way tell of the greater Hell in concealed manner. The tiny truths in the seed-bed of this world produce shoots in the hereafter. Thus, this poisonous seed indicates that particular tree of Zaqqum, saying: “I am its origin. For the unfortunate who bears me in his heart, my fruit is a private sample of that Zaqqum-tree.”

Since disbelief is aggression against innumerable rights, it is certainly an infinite crime and deserves infinite punishment. Human justice considers a sentence of fifteen years imprisonment (nearly eight million minutes) to be justice for a one minute’s murder, and conformable with general rights and interests. Therefore, since one instance of disbelief is the equivalent of a thousand murders, to suffer torments for nearly eight thousand million minutes for one minute’s absolute disbelief, is in conformity with that law of justice. A person who passes a year of his life in disbelief deserves punishment for close on two million million eight hundred eighty thousand million minutes, and manifests the meaning of the verse,

They will dwell therein for ever. (Qur’an, 93:8)

~ The Rays

 

[observer]

Thanks for the response Nur Student - the atheist's fate is fairly clear from what you've posted! It seems to suggest here though that you'll only be punished for your disbelief for a certain period of time (eight thousand million minutes for one minute's disbelief) rather than eternity - is that right?

There is no contradiction between the existence and ghastly torments of Hell, and infinite mercy, true justice, and wisdom with its balance and absence of waste

There seems to me a pretty clear contradiction. If god is infinitely merciful then why does his mercy have limits?

to kill a savage animal who tears to pieces a hundred cowed animals

I don't think this is a good comparison - god made the animal savage so why punish it for being that way?

I think the concept of heaven and hell is the most difficult part of religion for me to get my head round. On the one hand religions such as Islam preach that god is infinitely wise and merciful but then he's willing to punish and torture horrifically anyone who has been brought up differently. He is all powerful and all wise yet if someone doesn't believe in him then he is "affronted" and gets upset and punishes people. Why? It seems so petty and futile.

Likewise, a god who only rewards those who are brought up in a certain place doesn't seem just. The vast majority of followers of any religion are brought up in that religion - there are relatively few converts to any religion (considering all followers of that religion) so if god rewards muslims, he is in the main rewarding people born into muslim families. And if he is all powerful, he has chosen where people will be born. So why the huge bias against those born in non-muslim places to non-muslim parents, regardless of their actions?

I can accept (although I don't believe) the argument that there is a god who created the universe - we can't say 100% either way, but an angry, petulant god who tortures for all eternity those who weren't brought up to believe in a specific religion? That I can't accept.

 

[جوري]

Silly analogies then silly arguments based on silly analogies which are only ever concocted by simple minds who wish to draw satisfaction from simplistic conclusions or perhaps look for some reprieve as to why they should be exempt from propriety.

​

4:17 to top

Sahih International
The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.​

4:18 to top

Sahih International
But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.


if you want to learn go to the source of guidance, or ask scholars or learn properly, don't bring your grievances into a forum!​

 

[observer]

Silly analogies then silly arguments based on silly analogies which are only ever concocted by simple minds who wish to draw satisfaction from simplistic conclusions or perhaps look for some reprieve as to why they should be exempt from propriety.

Why silly?

And I resent the implication that I act without "propriety".

 

[جوري]

Why silly?

what is created in your own mind and that which you expect anyone else to react and respond to as the premier premise or clause and nothing to do with the laws or the doctrine in actuality, or your opinion based on someone else's opinion is silly- I thought I amply hinted to that above and quoted directly from the Quran. If you want an explanation to the verses above you should be schooled in that not forumed in that.

your resentment otherwise is a nonissue either way- we only conclude based on your writing what you do or don't do is inconsequential and you'll be accounted for it or perhaps according to you unaccounted for it so it doesn't bother me either way nor should it bother anyone else!

 

[Nur Student]

It seems to suggest here though that you'll only be punished for your disbelief for a certain period of time (eight thousand million minutes for one minute's disbelief) rather than eternity - is that right?

No, it is not. The examples and analogies given are only to make it easy to understand. Otherwise, unbelief is not only a thousand crimes, but a crime to the number of creatures. So, they will dwell there in for ever. (93:8)

If god is infinitely merciful then why does his mercy have limits?

His mercy and justice would be limited only if He didn't punish the oppressors. Not this way.

I don't think this is a good comparison - god made the animal savage so why punish it for being that way?

Again, don't take the analogy literally.

Islam preach that god is infinitely wise and merciful but then he's willing to punish and torture horrifically anyone who has been brought up differently.

With our simple minds, we are able to conclude that it is not fair to treat and judge exactly the same way two different persons who have two different backgrounds. How comes then we suppose that God will judge them exactly in the same way? Everybody will be held accountable for what they know. Therefore, let's leave the decision of who He will reward and punish to Him. It is not our business.

However, each person is responsible to believe in a Creator because it is an apparent, undeniable fact. After that, s/he is responsible to find out more about Him, and search for His signs. Having created the universe in such a wise and beautiful way, and the human being with mind and consciousness and in a great need of Him; He will definitely make Himself known to them.

 

[observer]

With our simple minds, we are able to conclude that it is not fair to treat and judge exactly the same way two different persons who have two different backgrounds. How comes then we suppose that God will judge them exactly in the same way? Everybody will be held accountable for what they know. Therefore, let's leave the decision of who He will reward and punish to Him. It is not our business.

However, each person is responsible to believe in a Creator because it is an apparent, undeniable fact. After that, s/he is responsible to find out more about Him, and search for His signs. Having created the universe in such a wise and beautiful way, and the human being with mind and consciousness and in a great need of Him; He will definitely make Himself known to them.

This idea at least seems fairer, that god would weigh up someone's background etc. before choosing paradise or hell. But with the idea that it's not our place to judge who will go to hell or to heaven, why do so many religious people spend so much time denouncing others and dictating "you are going to hell because you did a or b or c"?

 

[Nur Student]

But with the idea that it's not our place to judge who will go to hell or to heaven, why do so many religious people spend so much time denouncing others and dictating "you are going to hell because you did a or b or c"?

They tend to forget their own business and interfere in God's business unless they quote from His Word and His messengers.

 

[Native_Man]

Adam and Eve were perfect beings, speaking the perfect language, behaving perfectly and knowing the names of everything. Their morals were above perfect, without any knowledge of how foul a human mind can be.

So being perfect as they are, they were prohibited from approaching a "tree", and not from hurting each other or any of the things that people these days have a hard time staying away from.

But why not right? That was after all declared after he sinned.

How can there be sin before a law was given to man, to acknowledge sin?.

 

[ion that dinar]

Oh cool, a question.

How can there be sin before a law was given to man, to acknowledge sin?.

It is best to make a few things clear before answering that question. You have totally missed the point.


Putting all other creations aside. Adam was put on earth without paying for anyone's sins. The devil was put into a separate interconnected realm.


Adam was created with morals, he was the first Prophet. He received help directly from Almighty God. That means he obviously knew what a bad action is, no need to "acknowledge" it.


But Shaitan was there too, who could only deceive him about one thing, The Tree. This tells you right away that Adam was prohibited from eating of it, he was also warned to not even approach it, probably so that it keeps Shaitan away from him.


Eventually Shaitan convinced Adam to eat from the tree, after which everything changed. He transgressed. Now he has to co-exist with Shaitan, who can deceive him into doing anything, not just eat from a tree.. and the only way to keep him away is to live perfectly. By practicing the true Islamic way of life.

SO, because it wasn't anymore just avoiding a tree, Almighty God informed them of this evil co-existence as something called "enmity", which will exist until the Day of Judgement. Or did you really think what was meant in the post you quoted is that Adam was simply informed that he sinned? LOL



Please don't ask anymore questions unless it is about considering realizing the religious truth. Peace.



P.S. Your username looks like "Naive_Man" at the first glance.


Peace and blessings be upon Adam and his family. Much love.

 

[Karl]

I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?

The first person sounds like ----.
The second person sounds like an annoying do-gooder. "judgment is mine" said the Lord. God doesn't like being ignored and not believed in and if the person was truly good they would be a believer.