If

[Grace Seeker]

all atheism deals with is the existence in a god or gods or not.
the supernatural, life after death, morality, what i had for lunch etc.. is a seperate matter.

Atheist do tend to be skeptics and as such likely do not believe in the afterlife but thats just for those particular atheist and not atheism as a whole.

So, then while many atheists would not, you see it as falling within the sphere of atheism for a person to accept beliefs in the supernatural as long as that which is outside of nature is not defined as a divine being?

Does this mean that an atheist could believe in spirits and spirit beings?

Could an atheist believe in "The Force" as portrayed in the Star Wars movies?

 

[ranma1/2]

So, then while many atheists would not, you see it as falling within the sphere of atheism for a person to accept beliefs in the supernatural as long as that which is outside of nature is not defined as a divine being?

Does this mean that an atheist could believe in spirits and spirit beings?

Could an atheist believe in "The Force" as portrayed in the Star Wars movies?

Yes and yes. Many buddhist are atheists. Many atheists believe in ghosts, reincarnation etc...

Also remember that you and everyone is an atheist to one degree or another.
"You of course dont likely believe in zeus, ball, neptune, gia etc..... and in that degree you are an atheist in terms of those gods"

 

[Grace Seeker]

Also remember that you and everyone is an atheist to one degree or another.
"You of course dont likely believe in zeus, ball, neptune, gia etc..... and in that degree you are an atheist in terms of those gods"

That is an interesting way of thinking of atheism. I understand that indeed when Abraham first expressed the idea that he would worship the one God, YHWH, that the people of Mesopotamia would have considered him an atheist for rejecting their gods. I take it that this is what you mean, that because I do not accept say the gods of the Hindu religion or the gods of Greek mythology that I am an atheist. But I hardly think that such a definition is what one means by a declaration of atheism today.

I understand atheism to mean a lack of belief in any God or gods. Thus, by my way of thinking a Hindu, or an animist believes in false gods, but does believe in some concept of a god and is therefore not an atheist. And I would suppose they would say the same about me.

But you come across as one who accepts a reality which includes spiritual beings and yet denies the existence of divine beings. I'm still trying to understand how you hold both views at the same time. Obviously, in your mind, spiritual beings are not divine beings. And I can see that; they could simply be a different order of created beings, or I suppose even evolved beings. But if created, then there is a creator. And if evolved, then we have something of a conundrum of physics on the order of magnitude which makes string theory look like Kindgergarten material.

 

[ranma1/2]

That is an interesting way of thinking of atheism. ......... But I hardly think that such a definition is what one means by a declaration of atheism today.

like i said, i think, it depends on what form of atheism you refer to. There are several types depending on the level to which you do not believe.

....

But you come across as one who accepts a reality which includes spiritual beings and yet denies the existence of divine beings.
I'm still trying to understand how you hold both views at the same time. Obviously, in your mind, spiritual beings are not divine beings. And I can see that; they could simply be a different order of created beings, or I suppose even evolved beings

Actually i do not believe in any spiritual beings. "of course the word spiritual it self is pretty vague". If ghosts or similar thigns exists i wbleive that they would have a 100% scientific answer.


But if created, then there is a creator.
Nothing to my knowledge has ever been created "exnilo" many things have been formed and do not need something with an intelegence to form them.


And if evolved, then we have something of a conundrum of physics on the order of magnitude which makes string theory look like Kindgergarten material.

Pardon? Could you name this conundurm?
Evolution is overall very simple. It just requires 2 things "for the most part" imperfect replictation and selection.

In this case, mutations and natural selection "although there are other likely selection factors such as sexual selection to name one"

 

[Woodrow]

I'm not trying to pick on you ranma1/2 but I found this sentence a touch ironic.

ike i said, i think, it depends on what form of atheism you refer to. There are several types depending on the level to which you do not believe.

I can not understand how an atheist can have different levels of disbelief?

 

[ranma1/2]

I'm not trying to pick on you ranma1/2 but I found this sentence a touch ironic.



I can not understand how an atheist can have different levels of disbelief?

Well how many gods do you disbelieve in?

The differnce between you me and is just one.

 

[Woodrow]

Well how many gods do you disbelieve in?

The differnce between you me and is just one.

I'm dense today. I probably have a warped brain this morning. I can not seem to
visualize the concept of quanitying a disbelieve. I can see quantifying belief as I can say I believe in One God(swt). I can not quantify how many gods I do not believe in except to say all except the One True God(swt). But, that will not enumerate what I do not believe.

OK I admit I am brain dead today.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm dense today. I probably have a warped brain this morning. I can not seem to
visualize the concept of quanitying a disbelieve. I can see quantifying belief as I can say I believe in One God(swt). I can not quantify how many gods I do not believe in except to say all except the One True God(swt). But, that will not enumerate what I do not believe.

OK I admit I am brain dead today.

No, I don't think you are. Let me state what I think ranma is saying, and then let's see if he corrects me.


As best I understand ranma's logic, since you don't believe in Jesus as being God incarnate and I do, that (in his mind, not mine) makes you an atheist to me. And since I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit -- i.e. the Three-in-One God and you do not, that (in the thinking of ranma) makes me an atheist to your beliefs in Allah as the one true God who has no partners.

(Though, as an aside, I still submit that my belief in the Three-in-One God also does not ascribe partners to God for I claim he is only one God of three persons, but one being with no additional partners.)

So, as best I understand ranma, even though we are both believers in God we are still also both atheists at the same time. In my opinion, (if this is a true representation of ranma's beliefs, and I may still be mistaken) such talking is nonsense for it actually makes all persons atheists, which in the end makes the term itself meaningless. And meaningless talk is just so much nonsense, might as well be Jabberwocky.

 

[smile]

only Allah knows

 

[Pygoscelis]

So, then while many atheists would not, you see it as falling within the sphere of atheism for a person to accept beliefs in the supernatural as long as that which is outside of nature is not defined as a divine being?

Does this mean that an atheist could believe in spirits and spirit beings?

Could an atheist believe in "The Force" as portrayed in the Star Wars movies?

I know some atheists who believe in ghosts. I know one atheist who believes in psychics too. I find those beliefs as irrational as god beliefs, but these folks are still atheists (they don't believe in gods).

Atheism is nothing more than a non-belief in god(s). It says nothing else about a person. Too often religious folks try to assign a worldview to atheism - but I'm sorry, atheists just don't fit in any one box. We have no doctrines or beliefs we all agree on, no authority figure we all look to, no holy book or prophet. This is why it is next to impossible for "atheist groups" to form and exist beyond a backlash to the religious. Indeed there are even atheists who are non-secularists and see religion as a good thing in society. I'm not one of them, but they're out there. When I hear you are a muslim or that you are a christian or that you are a jew there are certain assumptions I can make that go along with those statements, not so when you hear i am an atheist.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I know some atheists who believe in ghosts. I know one atheist who believes in psychics too. I find those beliefs as irrational as god beliefs, but these folks are still atheists (they don't believe in gods).

Atheism is nothing more than a non-belief in god(s). It says nothing else about a person. Too often religious folks try to assign a worldview to atheism - but I'm sorry, atheists just don't fit in any one box. We have no doctrines or beliefs we all agree on, no authority figure we all look to, no holy book or prophet. This is why it is next to impossible for "atheist groups" to form and exist beyond a backlash to the religious. Indeed there are even atheists who are non-secularists and see religion as a good thing in society. I'm not one of them, but they're out there. When I hear you are a muslim or that you are a christian or that you are a jew there are certain assumptions I can make that go along with those statements, not so when you hear i am an atheist.

Well, Pygoscelis, I'm glad to see that you are at least internally consistent with your own beliefs. Can you see why I might wonder about those atheists who do believe in various sorts of other supernatural beings, but don't believe in any sort of divine being because they claim those beliefs to be irrational mumbo gumbo?

 

[Ebtisweetsam]

Obviously I chose I dont know.... no human on the face of the Earth (today) would know that answer.... Allah (SWT) only knows a person's last words/ actions, whether they will be worthy enough to enter Paradise. You may have been good all day, but for the wrong intentions enter Hell, or vice versa.... very old Poll, by the way...:?

 

[truemuslim]

Allahu Alim

 

[Pygoscelis]

Well, Pygoscelis, I'm glad to see that you are at least internally consistent with your own beliefs. Can you see why I might wonder about those atheists who do believe in various sorts of other supernatural beings, but don't believe in any sort of divine being because they claim those beliefs to be irrational mumbo gumbo?

Flip it around. If you believe in Gods (and indeed in very specific Gods rather than just some vague concept of a higher power) is it inconsistent of you to not believe in ghosts, psychics, and other irrational mumbo jumbo?

 

[Woodrow]

Flip it around. If you believe in Gods (and indeed in very specific Gods rather than just some vague concept of a higher power) is it inconsistent of you to not believe in ghosts, psychics, and other irrational mumbo jumbo?

Not really, But it could mean that you believe in God(swt), but do not believe humans have eternal life.

I do believe in the existence of Jinn and Angels, but I am a doubter in believing humans can come back as ghosts, be visible to some people and haunt places.

 

[Muslim Woman]

salaam/peace;

i voted yaaaaaaaaa


God promised in Quran that believers will go to
heaven. So , even if on the last day , for some mistakes , we have to enter into hell eeeee may Allah forbid ....later surely ( God Willing ) , we will come out of fire & enter paradise kay:


i recently came back from Hajj & I prayed Allah to accept my Hajj & InshaAllah my prayer will be answered

i hope , it's ok to say that I won't be thrown in to hell fire if i die today.

See u all in heaven InshaAllah

 

[Grace Seeker]

Flip it around. If you believe in Gods (and indeed in very specific Gods rather than just some vague concept of a higher power) is it inconsistent of you to not believe in ghosts, psychics, and other irrational mumbo jumbo?

What Woodrow said, and add to that that it would be inconsistent of me to believe that that might be other forms of supernatural beings beyond God.

But you didn't take your flip far enough. If there is a omniscient divine being that is able and ultimately chooses to reveal himself and other things to you and he tells you about what does and does not exist, and you choose to believe in things he says are not real and not believe in things he says are, then that would just be pure madness of the order of belief in talking trees, that humans can fly, or the government is reading our secret thoughts.

 

[Pygoscelis]

But you didn't take your flip far enough. If there is a omniscient divine being that is able and ultimately chooses to reveal himself and other things to you and he tells you about what does and does not exist, and you choose to believe in things he says are not real and not believe in things he says are, then that would just be pure madness of the order of belief in talking trees, that humans can fly, or the government is reading our secret thoughts.

You believe your God has told you that there is no such thing as ghosts or psychics?

Also, how would you interpret sensory information that clearly conflicts with what you believe your God has told you? Would this word of God tump your own sensory information. For example what if ghosts and psychics are real and you actually had a direct experience with one. Or what if God told you something that according to your senses clearly isn't so, like if he told you that you yourself do not exist?

The whole concept of "choosing to believe in things he says are not real and not beleive in things he says are" baffles me personally. I don't think I could choose to believe or disbelieve in something just because I'm told to, or even if I really really wanted to. I either believe something or I don't. I can't control that. You can?

 

[truemuslim]

wow this thread is getting soooo off topic now...soo...

:threadclo


nah jk i isnt a mod.lol

 

[Grace Seeker]

You believe your God has told you that there is no such thing as ghosts or psychics?

I never said what I believed. I thought we were talking hypotheticals here. So I was just posing a question.

The whole concept of "choosing to believe in things he says are not real and not beleive in things he says are" baffles me personally. I don't think I could choose to believe or disbelieve in something just because I'm told to, or even if I really really wanted to. I either believe something or I don't. I can't control that. You can?

But I do find it interesting that if a being that was omniscient told you something was or wasn't so, that you would not believe. I suppose that makes sense if you think that said being would be a liar. But my own predisposition is that eventually you have to trust that when your teachers tell you 2+2=4 that it really does, when your dad says the grass needs cutting that it really does, and that if an omniscient being tells you something that such information can be believed and trusted. On the other hand, if throughout your life your experience was that people can't be trusted, I could see how that might spill over into your beliefs with regard to any supernatural being as well. However, I really am sorry if you've had such a crappy life as to learn to mistrust others so much.