In what sense is Jesus (as) God's "Son"?

[The Khan]

Yes, true, Protestant denominations themselves, such as the Unitarian chruch have disputes regarding the trinity.

 

[Keltoi]

The "similarities" you point to have to do with iconography, not theology. Yes, many cultures adopted Christianity and substituted Christ and/or saints in the place of their former pagan beliefs in the context of artwork. That has nothing to do with the theology of Christianity. In fact, there is more evidence that Christianity influenced many pagan cults, not the other way around. Especially when one is referring to Roman mystery cults.

 

[The Khan]

Keltoi, can you link this evidence to me, please? I've always considered it to be the other way around. The rites of the mystery cults and such are no different from those performed when the Romans developed paganism over their animist beliefs.

 

[Keltoi]

Keltoi, can you link this evidence to me, please? I've always considered it to be the other way around. The rites of the mystery cults and such are no different from those performed when the Romans developed paganism over their animist beliefs.

I will have to search because I don't normally get my info from the internet if I can help it.

Though some similarities are clear between these religions and Christianity (death and resurrection of a god, a ceremonial meal, etc.), scholars differ as to the level of influence the mystery religions exerted on early Christianity. Part of the difficulty is that the bulk of our knowledge of these pagan religions dates from the second century onward, and the mystery religions may have been influenced by Christianity by then. {3} Also, the two religious movements flourished in the same cultural context, so it is possible their similarities are best explained not by dependence but in terms of parallel development.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/history/context.htm

I found this one that mentions it.

and this one: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked...hristianity -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

*there were many more I didn't paste.

 

[barney]

What likelyhood is there that he sent several sons?

I'm asking due to the incredible amount of virgin born deities with divine fathers , 12 diciples, the light of the world, saving mankind by their death, getting eaten by followers, water into wine...etc etc born under a star worshipped in ancient times, who were tortured and died, rose after 3 days and are schedualed to come again. Also the many who did similar if not exactly the same miracles.

Asklepios.
Hercules.
Prometheus
Dionysos
Osiris
Horus
Mithra
Krishna
Buddha
Apollonius
Zarathustra
and the aztec Gods who I fear will break my spellchecker.

Why have all these older gods done all the things that Jesus did. it's almost, if you squint a bit and bite your lip, like the bibalic Jesus was a cobbled together mix of all these gods and others.

 

[Keltoi]

What likelyhood is there that he sent several sons?

I'm asking due to the incredible amount of virgin born deities with divine fathers , 12 diciples, the light of the world, saving mankind by their death, getting eaten by followers, water into wine...etc etc born under a star worshipped in ancient times, who were tortured and died, rose after 3 days and are schedualed to come again. Also the many who did similar if not exactly the same miracles.

Asklepios.
Hercules.
Prometheus
Dionysos
Osiris
Horus
Mithra
Krishna
Buddha
Apollonius
Zarathustra
and the aztec Gods who I fear will break my spellchecker.

Why have all these older gods done all the things that Jesus did. it's almost, if you squint a bit and bite your lip, like the bibalic Jesus was a cobbled together mix of all these gods and others.

The names on that list that I'm familiar with have no or simply far fetched similarity to Christian theology. Don't make the mistake of accepting the internet scholarship on this topic.

 

[The Khan]

@Keltoi: Read - Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

What likelyhood is there that he sent several sons?

I'm asking due to the incredible amount of virgin born deities with divine fathers , 12 diciples, the light of the world, saving mankind by their death, getting eaten by followers, water into wine...etc etc born under a star worshipped in ancient times, who were tortured and died, rose after 3 days and are schedualed to come again. Also the many who did similar if not exactly the same miracles.

Asklepios.
Hercules.
Prometheus
Dionysos
Osiris
Horus
Mithra
Krishna
Buddha
Apollonius
Zarathustra
and the aztec Gods who I fear will break my spellchecker.

Why have all these older gods done all the things that Jesus did. it's almost, if you squint a bit and bite your lip, like the bibalic Jesus was a cobbled together mix of all these gods and others.

And that's where the Islamic view makes sense. ^^;

 

[barney]

Bhudda: In the miracle of Iddhi, Iddhipatihariya (Superhuman power) the Bhikkhu experiences various kinds of power. From one form he becomes many, and from many he becomes one again; he becomes visible or invisible, passes through wall and rocks without touching them, as if they were space. He dives into and emerges from the earth as if it were water, and walks on water without disturbing the surface as if it were land
Hercules carried Hersione back to her father on magic horses that galloped over the water

Horus was carried off by Set to the summit of Mount Hetep where they battled

Attis and Adonis were crucified

Dionysus did the water into wine trick, always popular.

Etc Etc. I could fill several pages as im sure you know.
Internet scholorship can be hidiously inaccurate, and yet the basic facts are there. things like Horus being the Lamb, have little basis. A few pictures of Horus with lambs, which may be simply a shepherd with their sheep.

Many others are measurable fact if you read the sagas and the ancient legends.
Why the dovetailing with christianity?
The only solution really for a christian is that the story of christ is a massive coincidence!

 

[The Khan]

@barney: There are many scholars who have written books regarding these subject, such as the one mentioned above and "Suns of God" by Acharya S. Most of these internet scholars base their works based on these books, which have numerous citations for validation.

 

[barney]

@barney: There are many scholars who have written books regarding these subject, such as the one mentioned above and "Suns of God" by Acharya S. Most of these internet scholars base their works based on these books, which have numerous citations for validation.

Oh part of it is an axe to grind against christianity i'm sure. But taking away anything vaguely biased, there are dozens upon dozens of examples of the Christ story being in the main part cut 'n pasted from dozens of other old religions now exterminated by christians.

Funnily enough, its all the bits where Jesus does stuff thats not normal human actions. Like rising from the dead and raising the dead and the water and wine and healing the blind.

It must have been a great sales pitch. "Look, this is a new improved version of Horus...its got bells and whistles on it and makes your old MK1 Horus look lame...our one flies into space and you can still eat the flesh like you are used to doing. Oh and if you dont accept it, we will burn you from the feet up on a slow fire....and your kids...."

 

[Keltoi]

Bhudda: In the miracle of Iddhi, Iddhipatihariya (Superhuman power) the Bhikkhu experiences various kinds of power. From one form he becomes many, and from many he becomes one again; he becomes visible or invisible, passes through wall and rocks without touching them, as if they were space. He dives into and emerges from the earth as if it were water, and walks on water without disturbing the surface as if it were land
Hercules carried Hersione back to her father on magic horses that galloped over the water

...and? Because some culture has a story about a supernatural deity that is able to walk on water points to some theological borrowing? Sorry but I don't buy it.

Horus was carried off by Set to the summit of Mount Hetep where they battled

Yeah...

Attis and Adonis were crucified

That is a new one on me. From what I know Adonis was killed by the tusk of a boar. Attis performed self-castration and was also said to be killed by a boar. It was thought that the myth of his death had more to do with explaining the dietary laws of Gaul.

Dionysus did the water into wine trick, always popular.

Meaning Bacchus of course, which is the god of wine in mythology. Not striking that such a god would produce wine.

Why the dovetailing with christianity?
The only solution really for a christian is that the story of christ is a massive coincidence!

Massive coincidence? Making comparisons like this and attempting to point to some massive borrowing of theology is akin to pointing to Zeus and stating.."Look, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship a God who lives in the sky." Or "Look, an angel supposedly gave Muhammed the Qu'ran, that sounds just like Zoroastrianism."

As I stated before, there is plenty of evidence that Christian iconography was influenced by pagan artwork of the period. That is more apparent in the Eastern Church, but still there in the Western as well.

You have to keep in mind that Christianity developed in Palestine in the world of Judaism. The theology is based on Judaic prophecy that Christians see as fulfilled in the body of Jesus Christ.

 

[Keltoi]

It must have been a great sales pitch. "Look, this is a new improved version of Horus...its got bells and whistles on it and makes your old MK1 Horus look lame...our one flies into space and you can still eat the flesh like you are used to doing. Oh and if you dont accept it, we will burn you from the feet up on a slow fire....and your kids...."

Horus? Like the part where Horus is conceived by a manufactured penis? There is nothing in the Horus mythos that is even slightly aligned with Christianity.

 

[The Khan]

Massive coincidence? Making comparisons like this and attempting to point to some massive borrowing of theology is akin to pointing to Zeus and stating.."Look, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship a God who lives in the sky." Or "Look, an angel supposedly gave Muhammed the Qu'ran, that sounds just like Zoroastrianism."

Islam rejects any anthropomorphic characteristics when it comes to describing Allah (SWT).

Zarathustha, although not mentioned in the Qur'an, was most definitely a messenger of Allah (SWT). The pagan characteristics in Zoroastrianism were introduced during the reign of the Achaemenid Shahenshah Darius, during the same time the older Avesta was composed. The only piece of the Avesta composed by Zarathustra (to which most Zoroastrians agree) were the Gathas.

Islamic view is simple: Most of these so called Gods in other religions were messengers of Allah (SWT), and over time, were deified into Gods and worshiped. The message they preached was corrupted. Jesus (AHS) is no exception.

 

[barney]

Rather than type out reams of stuff from my literature here is a comparison. Between specifically Horus and Jesus.
The Bibliography is worth a look. Discard any single sourced non contempary authors as biased trash.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

 

[Keltoi]

Rather than type out reams of stuff from my literature here is a comparison. Between specifically Horus and Jesus.
The Bibliography is worth a look. Discard any single sourced non contempary authors as biased trash.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

This website is exactly what I'm talking about.

Let me address a few of them.

Claim: Horus was born of a virgin. This is false. As I stated earlier, Horus was concieved when Osiris was hacked into 14 pieces. Isis put Osiris back together again...except for Osiris's penis. Isis fashions a substitute penis and has relations with it. Out comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.

Claim: Horus was Baptized. Horus was never mentioned to have been Baptized. Never mentioned to have taught at a temple either.

Claim: Three wise men. This one is pretty funny, because whoever came up with this supposed similarity obviously didn't know much about Christianity at all. The Bible never mentions how many wise men attended Him. Of course there were no three wise men that attended Horus either, so the comparison is complete garbage.

Claim: 12 disciples. Again, false. Horus had four disciples called "Heru-Shemsu". There are other mentions of 16 followers and a group of blacksmiths.

Claim: Horus walked on water No, he was never said to have walked on water.

Claim: Horus had a sermon on the mount. No. This isn't backed up by anything in the mythos.

Claim: Horus died and went to Hell before being resurrected. The only mention of Horus dying at all is a rather unofficial version of the myth in which he is killed by a crocodile.

Claim: Horus was crucified No, he was never said to have died at all in most accounts.

 

[The Khan]

Horus's birth is a mystery. There are too many myths and sources regarding it.

All of Horus's deeds and attributes changed time and time again. The Egyptians would promote and demote their Gods as they wished. The Pharoahs considered themselves the greates of the Gods themselves. When Horus was introduced in Egypt by invaders, he was a war God. Later, he became a Sun God. First, he was the son of Ra. Later, the son of Osiris. Depictions of Horus change with every Egyptian dynasty. In some sources of the book of the dead, he is depicted as being born from Osiris's semen. In other sources, Ra impregnates Isis without sexual intercourse. Hence, I personally consider comparing Jesus and Horus as irrelevant.

Instead, a comparision to other Sun Gods of Rome, such as Mithras and Sol Invictus produces better results.

In short, while the Egyptian religion as a whole influences Christianity along with the cults practiced in Rome and Greece, the cult of Horus specifically did not play a major influence.

 

[Keltoi]

Horus's birth is a mystery. There are too many myths and sources regarding it.

All of Horus's deeds and attributes changed time and time again. The Egyptians would promote and demote their Gods as they wished. The Pharoahs considered themselves the greates of the Gods themselves. When Horus was introduced in Egypt by invaders, he was a war God. Later, he became a Sun God. First, he was the son of Ra. Later, the son of Osiris. Depictions of Horus change with every Egyptian dynasty. In some sources of the book of the dead, he is depicted as being born from Osiris's semen. In other sources, Ra impregnates Isis without sexual intercourse. Hence, I personally consider comparing Jesus and Horus as irrelevant.

Instead, a comparision to other Sun Gods of Rome, such as Mithras and Sol Invictus produces better results.

In short, while the Egyptian religion as a whole influences Christianity along with the cults practiced in Rome and Greece, the cult of Horus specifically did not play a major influence.

There is no evidence that Mithra had anything to do with the development of Christianity either. The people who attempt to make this case do so by trying to form some semblance of continuity between the Indo/Iranian origins of the god and the Roman incarnation. Usually people who make the claim also use the work of a guy named Cumont, whose book on Mithraism has been dismissed as faulty scholarship. If you wish I can address each individual claim regarding Mithra as well. It isn't hard to do. All it takes is to actually read the works of Mithra scholars in the modern period.

Here are examples:
http://www.unrv.com/culture/mithras.php

http://faculty.cua.edu/Pennington/ChurchHistory220/Mithras.html

 

[The Khan]

Keltoi, this is the article I am currently writing on Zoroastrianism: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

My information on the Mithraic mysteries is from: The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire by Roger Beck.

I have done way too much research on pagan religions of Rome. I have an obsession around religions due to my Asperger syndrome. As much as I appreciate your efforts in defending your faith, it is futile.

 

[Keltoi]

Keltoi, this is the article I am currently writing on Zoroastrianism: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

My information on the Mithraic mysteries is from: The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire by Roger Beck.

I have done way too much research on pagan religions of Rome. I have an obsession around religions due to my Asperger syndrome. As much as I appreciate your efforts in defending your faith, it is futile.

Futile huh? Why don't you humor me and state your claims and we'll see what is futile.

 

[barney]

The website is a good example of what I was saying, and Kahn put it rather nicely too.
The Gods of old included many different forms. In one tale Hercules walks on water,(gallops) and in other versions he dosnt.

I am not saying that all these deities did the exact same as jesus. Thats totally incorrect.
Certain parts of certain tales about them are however identical to Jesus's story. The rather fantastical supernatural parts that make Jesus's story that of a God in human form rather than that of a perfectly ordinary "prophet".

If you discount 90% of the sources then you are left with dozens of copy&pasted superpowers attributed to pagan gods.