infallibility

[caroline]

On another thread, I asked whether or not FGM (female genital mutilation) is accepted in Islam. One posters answer was that right or wrong is not a matter of our rational minds but it is what's ordered by the Quran and the Prophet.

The only reference to FGM I have been given from the Quran states that when the prophet observed women performing this procedure he told them they could just trim but not to cut into it. Which brought me to my present question, which is the purpose of this post:

Is the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) infallible? I know that many Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope. Do Muslims believe the Prophet to be perfect and without fault? Or was he capable of making mistakes? Did he make mistakes? Could he?

My other question is on the hadiths... The seem to be subjective, are they?

Thank You! And respect to you all.

 

[adeeb]

Is the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) infallible? .

no, he is not. He is an ordinary man but with direct guidence from Allah.

Do Muslims believe the Prophet to be perfect and without fault? Or was he capable of making mistakes? Did he make mistakes? Could he?

.

yes he could, and he had made a mistake...

but, Muhammad is different from any man in this world.... if he made mistake, Allah DIRECTLY told him that he had made a mistake... so he could change what he had done.

what he said, is from Allah, what he done, is guidence from Allah... Allah has made him the best man in this world...

so overall, he is infallible? yes, he is kay:

 

[caroline]

I'm confused. He is NOT infallible, but he IS infallible?

He is the best man in this world... better than Moses, Abraham and Jesus?

Thank You.

 

[adeeb]

I'm confused. He is NOT infallible, but he IS infallible? .

relax, step by step sis...
i suggest u to read a lot of books about islam...maybe if i got wrong u can tell me. and we can discuss here

He is the best man in this world... better than Moses, Abraham and Jesus?

Thank You.

yes he is.

the last prophet, the best men better from the other prophets...

Muhammad sallallahualaihi wasallam (pbuh)

 

[UmmSqueakster]

Prophets (saws) are protected from sin, but not from error:

Talha narrates: I was walking with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) when he passed by some people at the tops of their palm trees. He asked, “What are they doing?” They answered, “Pollinating the male into the female.” He replied, “I do not think that this will be of benefit.” When they were told about what the Prophet said, they stopped what they were doing. Later, when the trees shed down their fruits prematurely, the Prophet was told about that. He said, “If it is good for them they should do it. I was just speculating. So, pardon me. But if I tell you something about God, then take it because I would never tell untruths about God.”

Thus, the Islamic definition of infallibility does not necessarily include protection from forgetting or misjudgment in matters that are not part of conveying the message (Ibn Taymiyah, Al-Musawwadah fi Usul Al-Fiqh, Vol. 1, p. 171, Al-Madani, Cairo).

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...kAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016492




Hadith are complicated. In fact, the study of hadith is known as a science, and as anyone who's studied a science in school, be it biology, chemistry, physics or whatnot, know that one cannot completely grasp that science after a quick explanation or reading of a book.

That being said, a good introduction to the science of hadith can be found here.

Another excellent book is Rethinking Tradition in Modern Islamic Thought. Most of the book discusses muslim engagement with the tradition/hadith in the last 200 years, but the early chapters discuss the early understanding of hadith and how the tradition was formed. Just as a warning, this is a very dense academic book. I can breeze through most books at a very good clip (ie a 300 page novel in a 3 hours), but this one takes me a good 5 minutes per page at least.

 

[caroline]

LOL Janaan is a speed reader! I have tried this a few times and I am able to read fast but I never do. I have always read as though the words were being spoken. Even in my head I read at a speaking pace with all the expression, inflection, and pauses as though it were real life. But then, I'm a playwrite so I guess that makes sense.

Thank you on your notes. I now understand hadith to be similar to theology in that it is the academic or scientific study of the Quran and Islam?

That would account for the fact that there are so many disagreements in this field.

Are their many Muslims who simply read and follow the Quran according to their own understanding?

 

[UmmSqueakster]

Not quite.

Hadith are the traditions of the Prophet (saws), what he said, did, how he behaved in certain situations. Allah (swt) didn't just throw down the whole book of the Qur'an and say "here it is, memorize it, there will be a test in a week." No, He chose Muhammad (saws) as the messenger, and as an example of how to live the Qur'an, of how to be a muslim. The companions of the Prophet (saws) would observe his actions and speech, and attempt to copy him in their lives.

After the Prophet (saws) died, when the companions were faced with a situation where they wanted to know how to act islamically, they would ask one another, what would the Prophet (saws) do in this situation? One of the companions of the Prophet (saws) would remember a saying or an action of the Prophet and narrate it to those around him. This would continue on for several decades, until the narration of these traditions got to be too unwieldy as the muslim community expanded across several countries.

At this time, knowledgable men traveled around the muslim world, collecting these sayings, collecting the chain of transmition (ie, person a heard from person be who heard from person c who heard the Prophet (saws) say...). These men would study every person in the chain of transmitition, as well as study the content of the hadith, and termine how valid it was.

These hadith/traditions of the Prophet (saws) are an integral part of how muslims understand and practice Islam. For example, in the Qur'an we are commanded to make salat (ie to pray). But how are we to pray? We only know how to make salat through the hadith, the transmition of how the Prophet (saws) prayed.




There are some modern groups who are quran only-ists, but traditionally, one learns islam from the hands of scholars who themselves learned from scholars who themselves learned from scholars all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad (saws). thus, our understanding of the religion is a continuation of how muslims have understood and practiced islam throughout the centuries.


Did that make sense? Sometimes I get on a roll and tend to ramble on and on and on, lol

 

[caroline]

Yes, it made perfect sense. The hadiths are more like the gospels... followers accounts of the life of the Prophet.

Thank you!!! You have helped me understand this.

 

[UmmSqueakster]

Bingo! That's exactly how I look at the gospels (and one of the reasons I could not be a christian, even if I ever left islam, audu billahi minashaytanir rajim [I seek refuge in God from Satan, the accursed]). The Prophets (saws) and in particular Muhammad (saws) were chosen because they represent the best of humanity. WWMD? How they practiced the religion is of the utmost importance to how we practice it, but there has to be the revelation upon which to center your actions. That revelation is not there in Christianity. We know what Jesus (as) said, but what was revealed to him by God?

 

[Jayda]

On another thread, I asked whether or not FGM (female genital mutilation) is accepted in Islam. One posters answer was that right or wrong is not a matter of our rational minds but it is what's ordered by the Quran and the Prophet.

The only reference to FGM I have been given from the Quran states that when the prophet observed women performing this procedure he told them they could just trim but not to cut into it. Which brought me to my present question, which is the purpose of this post:

Is the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) infallible? I know that many Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope. Do Muslims believe the Prophet to be perfect and without fault? Or was he capable of making mistakes? Did he make mistakes? Could he?

My other question is on the hadiths... The seem to be subjective, are they?

Thank You! And respect to you all.

hola,

i know this is about islam but it's a pet peeve of mine... we all believe the Pope is infallible... but only on issues of doctrine and dogma when he speaks ex cathedra... it's happened seven times in 2000 years... a lot of people think that papal infallibility means the Pope could declare the cookie monster president tomorrow so we have to follow along... that's not true.


que Dios te bendiga

 

[ummzayd]

The only reference to FGM I have been given from the Quran states that when the prophet observed women performing this procedure he told them they could just trim but not to cut into it. Which brought me to my present question, which is the purpose of this post:

peace Caroline, just a quick aside - it's not in quran at all about FGM, maybe it is a hadith?

 

[ahsan28]

Is the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) infallible? I know that many Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope.

Only the prophets (peace on them) were continuously guarded against and protected by Allah Almighty from any sin, and with the termination of Prophethood the privilege of infallibility has been taken away by Allah Almighty from all the progeny of Adam. This is the consensus view-point of mainstream Muslim scholars.

 

[crayon]

Well, about FGM, here's what i found.link

 

[caroline]

Only the prophets (peace on them) were continuously guarded against and protected by Allah Almighty from any sin, .

Hmmm... I seem to remember somebody throwing down the commandments that God etched in stone and getting in pretty big trouble for that. Wasn't that a sin?

 

[UmmSqueakster]

When you read the Qur'an, you'll find that the stories of the Prophets (saws) are different from those you find in the bible in one main way - in the bible, these men of God seem to do horrible things quite a lot (Noah's drunken nakedness, David sending his friend to die so he could have his wife, etc). In the Qur'an and in Islam, we don't believe that the prophets and messengers of God would do things like this.

My husband was born and raised in Egypt, and didn't have any exposure to the bible prior to his moving here. Since I used to be a pretty devout christian and a religious studies major, I have a ton of bibles on the bookshelf at home. While waiting for his green card, he started to read through them. When I would get home from work, he would grab a bible off the table, flip it open and say "Did you read this???? They think ______ really did this?????!!!#?!@!" It just flabergasted him that jews and christians would think that their men of God did things like that.

 

[thirdwatch512]

Female genital mutilation is circumcision of women, correct?

I remember reading a Hadith once where Muhammad did not prohibit it, but he said do not do it too hard, or cut too much.

I think it is like the Islamic view of slavery.. Not necessarily condemned, but is permitted under certain conditions.

As for infallibility.. i do not think all Muslims see Muhammad as infallible, although many see his teachings(sunnah) as so. However, we must remember that the Hadiths were written 200 years later, and they are not perfect. Many people have doubted Hadiths over time.. Whether it be the Wahabbi's, Salafi's, or Sufi's.. All have questioned some before! So perhaps(according to Islam) Muhammad was infallible, but the Hadiths attributed to him(which were written 200 years later) are not(because the writers of the Hadiths may have added some traditions that are false here or there on accident.)

 

[- Qatada -]

^ Many ahadith were written by his (peace be upon him)'s companions. Of which include Abdullah ibn 'Amr ibn Al 'Aas, Abdullah ibn Abbaas etc.


So please lets not confuse the issue. Thankyou.

 

[ummzayd]

^ Many ahadith were written by his (peace be upon him)'s companions. Of which include Abdullah ibn 'Amr ibn Al 'Aas, Abdullah ibn Abbaas etc.


So please lets not confuse the issue. Thankyou.

so they actually wrote down the hadiths and this writing is/was available for people to read? rather than just passing it on orally which I think is the case with a lot of hadiths where you get a whole chain of transmitters. (excuse my ignorance, I am seeking a cure).

 

[thirdwatch512]

^ Many ahadith were written by his (peace be upon him)'s companions. Of which include Abdullah ibn 'Amr ibn Al 'Aas, Abdullah ibn Abbaas etc.


So please lets not confuse the issue. Thankyou.

How am I confusing the issue? The fact is, is Sahih Bukhari, and other collections of the Hadiths were all compiled into books hundreds of years later. Many of these hadiths have very weak isnad's, and others have been doubted anyways. Would you like me to show you a Salafi site that has a 6 page list of hadiths that have been questioned regarding their authenticity?

My point still stands.. Many muslims do not see the hadiths as infallible. In fact, through time even prominent Sheikhs, Imams, etc, have disputed different hadiths on different grounds.

 

[Angelzz]

The study of hadith is a topic of its own and cannot be summed up so lightly and flippantly without detailed study into the field.

The collectors of hadith have dedicated their entire lives to this task alone.

They have collected hundreds of thousands of hadiths and as such there is a grading system of hadiths.

You might find this thread beneficial

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/52543-your-basic-guide-hadith-learners.html

Its really quite interesting and amazing how these hadiths were collected and organised and cannot be explained easily without serious study into this.


And to get back onto the topic of this thread.


The Prophets’ task was to convey the message from Allaah even though they were human, hence the issue of infallibility may be examined from two angles:

1 – Infallibility in conveying the message

2 – Infallibility from human error


Firstly:

With regard to the first issue, the Prophets were infallible in conveying the message from Allaah. They did not conceal anything that Allaah had revealed to them, and they did not add anything from themselves. Allaah said to His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Messenger (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allaah will protect you from mankind”
[al-Maa'idah 5:67]

“And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allaah),

We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),

And then We certainly would have cut off his life artery (aorta),

And none of you could have withheld Us from (punishing) him”

[al-Haaqqah 69:44-47]

So with regard to conveying the religion of his Lord, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not make any mistakes at all, whether major or minor, rather he was infallible and under the constant protection of Allaah.

Secondly:

With regard to the Prophets as people, they may make mistakes. This may be discussed as follows

1 –They do not commit major sins

With regard to major sins, the Prophets do not commit major sins at all, and they are protected from such major sins both before their missions began or afterwards.

2 – Matters that have nothing to do with conveying the message and the revelation.

With regard to minor sins, these may be committed by them, or by some of them. Hence the majority of scholars are of the view that they are not infallible when it comes to minor sins. But if they committed such actions they were not left to persist therein, rather Allaah pointed that out to them and they hastened to repent therefrom

3 – Unintentional mistakes with regard to some worldly matters

With regard to mistakes in some worldly matters, it is permissible for them to make such mistakes although their reason is sound and their insight is strong. This happened to several of the Prophets including our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). This happened with regard to various spheres of life such as medicine, agriculture, etc



Here is the link for a more thorough reading of this issue

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=42216&ln=eng&txt=muhammad%20infallible