Interesting find - Christians please comment

[Hugo]

al injeel was revealed to Jesus a.s., and not to some unknown person in the 2nd century, whom later day christians named "john"

I see, so where can I go to see what was revealed to Jesus, where can it be found?

 

[Ramadhan]

I see, so where can I go to see what was revealed to Jesus, where can it be found?

Your question is answered by these questions:

1. Did Jesus a.s. write down the injeel?
2. Did Jesus a.s. ask his disciples to write down the injeel?
3. Did Jesus a.s. ask his disciples to memorise the injeel?
4. Were there strong and reliable oral traditions that preserve the injeel?

 

[Woodrow]

I see, so where can I go to see what was revealed to Jesus, where can it be found?

You most likely have to return to the time Jesus(as) was still walking the earth and teaching it to those who would listen. Although it is possible (Possible not likely tho) someplace the Injeel still exists, it is doubtful there would be any indisputable evidence to verify it is the Injeel and in it's original form.

The founders of what became called Christianity, seem to have done a thorough purge of any writings that disagreed with the teachings of what was to become modern Christianity. Jesus(as) was not a Christian and there were no Christians at the time he walked upon this earth.

 

[Hugo]

Your question is answered by these questions:

1. Did Jesus a.s. write down the injeel?
2. Did Jesus a.s. ask his disciples to write down the injeel?
3. Did Jesus a.s. ask his disciples to memorise the injeel?
4. Were there strong and reliable oral traditions that preserve the injeel?

Is this a rather complicated way of saying the injeel do not now exist?

 

[Ramadhan]

Is this a rather complicated way of saying the injeel do not now exist?

I don't know.
What do you think?
Do you think it's hidden somewhere in impenetrable vault?

 

[Hugo]

You most likely have to return to the time Jesus(as) was still walking the earth and teaching it to those who would listen. Although it is possible (Possible not likely tho) someplace the Injeel still exists, it is doubtful there would be any indisputable evidence to verify it is the Injeel and in it's original form. The founders of what became called Christianity, seem to have done a thorough purge of any writings that disagreed with the teachings of what was to become modern Christianity. Jesus(as) was not a Christian and there were no Christians at the time he walked upon this earth.

Well it seems that only Muslims believe in the injeel though they have never as far as is known seen them; not a logical position is it? The founder of Christianity was Jesus and given there exist some 20,000 ancient manuscripts including the NT as well as the apocryphal writings it is hard to see what has been suppressed so again you seem to be basing your arguments on documents that have been 'purged' so Muslims do appear to have a propensity to rely on documents that are not and as far as we know never were available to anyone.

 

[Hugo]

I don't know. What do you think? Do you think it's hidden somewhere in impenetrable vault?

Well one might say the Injeel are the 4 Canonical gospels - if you cannot accept that then of course I cannot prove that the Injeel you trust in did not exist (do you understand why one cannot prove that something never existed) but the onus is on you to provide evidence otherwise your belief has no foundation. There are Biblical books named in the OT that are now lost but although one can believe they existed one cannot base any kind of truth on whist they may or may nit have contained

 

[Woodrow]

Well it seems that only Muslims believe in the injeel though they have never as far as is known seen them; not a logical position is it? The founder of Christianity was Jesus and given there exist some 20,000 ancient manuscripts including the NT as well as the apocryphal writings it is hard to see what has been suppressed so again you seem to be basing your arguments on documents that have been 'purged' so Muslims do appear to have a propensity to rely on documents that are not and as far as we know never were available to anyone.

Do you agree that Jesus(as) preached the word of God?

Do You agree there is no written compilation of the words Jesus(as) preached? ( I do admit that the words quoted in the Gospels may be from the Injeel, but there is no provable verification they are. If those can be proven as the actual words spoken by Jesus(as) then those would be at least fragments of the Injeel)

Do you agree that a complete works containing the words Jesus(as) preached would/should have a name or title?

Basically that is what we believe the Injeel is and why no copy exists.

 

[Ramadhan]

Well one might say the Injeel are the 4 Canonical gospel

Is that what you believe?
That the 4 canonical gospels is the Injeel?
Is one of those gospels titled "The Gospel according to Jesus (as)"?

if you cannot accept that then of course I cannot prove that the Injeel you trust in did not exist

It's ok hugo, I did not ask you to prove whether the Injeel exists or not.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Just a point for clarity here - how do you know it is not al-Injeel?

I have four different articles on that at my site. The link is in my signature.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Ron Hassan (or maybe it was Moiz Amjad) wrote that in all likelihood al-Injeel was the now lost Gospel of the Nazarenes. Nobody really knows, but it seems to make a lot of sense given that this is what the seventh-century Christians that the Koran appears to refer to "al-Injeel" were using. (The Bible, you see, had not yet been translated into Arabic.)

 

[Hugo]

Do you agree that Jesus(as) preached the word of God? Do You agree there is no written compilation of the words Jesus(as) preached? ( I do admit that the words quoted in the Gospels may be from the Injeel, but there is no provable verification they are. If those can be proven as the actual words spoken by Jesus(as) then those would be at least fragments of the Injeel) GDo you agree that a complete works containing the words Jesus(as) preached would/should have a name or title? Basically that is what we believe the Injeel is and why no copy exists.

I regard Jesus as the living word of God and the canonical gospels recount the teaching of Jesus and the do have titles called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The point is that if you have no copies of the injeel then they cannot be used to arrive at doctrine or show that the canonical gospels are corrupted indeed they cannot be used for any purpose whatsoever since as far as I understand it all you have is a title for supposedly lost words

 

[Woodrow]

I regard Jesus as the living word of God and the canonical gospels recount the teaching of Jesus and the do have titles called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The point is that if you have no copies of the injeel then they cannot be used to arrive at doctrine or show that the canonical gospels are corrupted indeed they cannot be used for any purpose whatsoever since as far as I understand it all you have is a title for supposedly lost words

Good point. Also the reason we peobably will never understand each other fully or come to any agreement in regards to our beliefs.

My version of what you just posted looks like this:

I do not regard Jesus as the living word of God and the canonical gospels recount the the writing of questionable authors of titles called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The point is we have no copies of the injeel and we should not expect non-Muslim to arrive at agreement or show that the canonical gospels are corrupted indeed they cannot be used for any purpose except to explain the reason why some points of Christianity do agree with Islam

Understandably you and I can not agree on this as we both have seperate accepted sources and what is accepted by one is not accepted by the other.

 

[Woodrow]

And prophet Muhammad SAW confirmed jesus pbuh and the injeel conveyed by Jesus pbuh, so this "another" helper must have been prophet Muhammad SAW.

Ameen, that is the truth.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Ron Hassan (or maybe it was Moiz Amjad) wrote that in all likelihood al-Injeel was the now lost Gospel of the Nazarenes. Nobody really knows, but it seems to make a lot of sense given that this is what the seventh-century Christians that the Koran appears to refer to "al-Injeel" were using. (The Bible, you see, had not yet been translated into Arabic.)

That is an interesting possibility. I've wondered if Al-Injeel is actually the sayings gospel, i.e., Q that scholars have tried to extrapolate as the authentic words of Jesus pbuh. If it is Q then it would contain the essence of his message in his own words at some point in time without the taint of all the extraneous material added in by the unknown authors of the gospels.

If you ever read what most scholars have concluded is the Q sayings gospel it doesn't say anything about the trinity, or him being God or a lot of the other baggage that Christians hold on to now. It is just the pure message that he delivered.
:wa:

 

[Grace Seeker]

another side note... i always thought it neat that the same angel went to mary as who went to Mohammed (pbuh ) w/ the Koran.

Well, yes and no. Christians says that the angel Gabriel spoke to Mary. Muslims say that the angel Gabriel who spoke to Muhammad is the Holy Spirit. Christians cannot accept declaring the Holy Spirit to be nothing more than a created messenger. Muslims cannot accept declaring the Holy Spirit to be anything more than a created messenger.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Do you agree that a complete works containing the words Jesus(as) preached would/should have a name or title?

Actually, no, I do not agree. That is exactly one (not the only one) of my problems with this concept of the injeel as it is understood in Islam today.

 

[Grace Seeker]

If you ever read what most scholars have concluded is the Q sayings gospel it doesn't say anything about the trinity, or him being God or a lot of the other baggage that Christians hold on to now. It is just the pure message that he delivered.
:wa:

This depends on which scholars you read and how they interpret what was or was not Q material. Some speak of more than one Q-source even. Those that do this include material in Q that do have Jesus speaking of himself as God. Others say that these are later additions to Q. And just as Muslims continue to talk about an injeel that no one can actually read, so it is many "learned" scholars continue to talk about a Q-source document that no one can read. What I find both of them to have in common is the trait of being so clearly understood by those who accept what they have not read and cannot read in order to have authority to deny what generations have known and read ever since the first century.

Given that Q is assumed by those who adhere to its hypothesis to be one part of the source material for Matthew, Mark, and Luke, if it is the injeel of which Muslims speak, then just as you might claim it would show a Jesus who does not speak of the Trinity, there also would be absolutely no evidence (outside of Islamic writings) that Jesus ever made mention of Muhammad.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ron Hassan (or maybe it was Moiz Amjad) wrote that in all likelihood al-Injeel was the now lost Gospel of the Nazarenes. Nobody really knows, but it seems to make a lot of sense given that this is what the seventh-century Christians that the Koran appears to refer to "al-Injeel" were using. (The Bible, you see, had not yet been translated into Arabic.)

Have you read it? Let me share parts of it with you, and you tell me if you're willing to accept it as true:

Lection 82
1. THEN released he Barabbas unto them, and when he had scourged Iesus he delivered him to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Iesus to the common hall and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
2. And they stripped him and put on him a purple robe. And when they had plaited a crown of thorns they put it upon his head and a reed in his right hand, and they bowed the knee before him and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
3. Then came Iesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
4. When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. And Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him and crucify him, for I find no fault in him.
5. And they spit upon him, and took the reed and smote him on the head. And after that they had mocked him they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
6. And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the county, and on him they laid the cross that he might bear it after Iesus. And there followed him a great company of people and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
7. But Jesus, turning unto them, said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold the days are coming in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
8. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For it they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry.
9. And there were also two other malefactors led with him to be put to death. And when they were come unto a place called Calvary, and Golgotha, that is to say a place of a skull, there they crucified him; and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and other on the left.
10. And it was the third hour when they crucified him, and they gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall, and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. And Jesus said, Abba Amma, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
11. Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his raiment and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his vesture. Now the vesture was without seam, woven from the top throughout. They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be.
12. That the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did. And sitting down they watched him there.
13. And a superscription was also written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, This is the King of the Jews.
14. This title then read many of the Jews, for the place where Iesus was crucified was nigh to the city, and it was written in Hebrew and Greek and Latin. then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews, but that, he said, I am the King of the Jews. Pilate answered, What I have written, I have written.
15. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be the Christ, save thy self and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds, but this man hath done nothing amiss.
16. And he said unto Iesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Iesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
17. And they that passed by reviled him, wagging heir heads and saying, Thou that wouldst destroy the temple, and build it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the Cross.
18. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, while the scribes and elders said, He saved a lamb, himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross and we will believe him. He trusted in God, let Him deliver him now, if He will have him, for he said, I am the Son of God.
19. The usurers and the dealers in beasts and birds also cast the like things into his teeth, saying, Thou who drivest from the temple the traders in oxen and sheep and doves, art thyself but a sheep that is sacrificed.
20. Now from the Sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the Ninth hour, and some standing around, lighted their torches, for the darkness was very great. And about the Sixth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lame sabachthani? that, is to say, My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me ?
21. Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias; others said, He calleth on the Sun. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
22. Now there stood by the cross of Iesus his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary, the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
23. When Iesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! And he said to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her into his own home.
24. After this, Iesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I am athirst. And from a vessel they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth.
25. And Iesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Abba Amma, into Thy hand I commend my spirit.
26. When Iesus had therefore received the vinegar, he cried aloud, It is finished; and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost. And it was the ninth hour.
27. And behold there was great thunder and lightning, and the partition wall of the Holy place, from which hung the veil, fell down, and was rent in twain, and the earth did quake, and the rocks also were rent.
28. Now when the centurion and they that were with him watching Iesus, saw the earthquake and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was a Son of God.
29. And many women were there, which followed from Galilee, ministering unto them, and among them were Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children and they lamented, saying, The light of the world is hid from our eyes, the Lord our Love is crucified.
30. Then the Jews, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath, for that was a Paschal Sabbath, besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
31. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the two who were crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs, but one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his heart and forthwith came there out blood and water.
32. And he that saw it bare record and his record is true, and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done that the Scriptures might be fulfilled—A bone of him shall not be broken, and again—In the midst of the week the Messiah shall be cut off.

(source: http://www.thenazareneway.com/legend_of_the_lost_gospel.htm )

I have no problem with this being the al-Injeel that Muslims want to claim is the true gospel of Jesus if you don't.

 

[Ramadhan]

I have no problem with this being the al-Injeel that Muslims want to claim is the true gospel of Jesus if you don't.

Al Injeel would be "the gospel ACCORDING TO Jesus (as)",
and NOT "the gospel ABOUT Jesus (as)"



It is interesting to note that, according to your statement above, you would actually accept the fact that the injeel as related in the Qur'an did exist (I bolded and underlined your statement) if it conforms with your belief.
who knew that a christian pastor may actually accept that the qur'an ays the truth?

mindblowing.

Just as a contrast, you would never bend the conviction of a muslim that the Qur'an is 100% true.