Iran arrests controversial cleric and followers

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

If they were all "Islamic States" it would be like the Islamic Civilization. There is NO country like that. So dont call it an Islamic State.

 

[Ulysses]

You haven't accepted that a good portion of the world does not share your belief in G-d.

Not just a "good portion" but the majority.

 

[Ulysses]

This is interesting. The word Wa Ha Bi is not allowed on this site? Why is that?

 

[Ulysses]

Those who want a true Islamic state will create one like it used to be

Could you be more specific about when and where this putative Islamic paradise existed? Was it after the Caliphs split and formed the warring Shia Sunni sects? Or was it during Muhammeds life when he conquered vast tracts of territory? Perhaps your interpretation of that conquering is that it was for the best, and that the society it brought to the subjugated was a utopia, but then we have the sticky problem of the fact that, that utopia did not live to remain a united Islam even past Mohammeds death, leading to the modern day Sunni and Shia split which is accounting for so much slaughter in Iraq, and the antipathy of Al Qaeda for the Saudi regime.

In my worldview, to be subjugated to believe a specific set of prescriptive things and ordered to follow a highly specified set of behaviors without being allowed to rationally consider the benefits, costs, and possible variations can never constitute a utopia because it is an affront to the basic human faculty of reason and self-determination.

 

[Ulysses]

Choosing to obey the laws of our creator who is perfect and omnipotent VS a man with similiar limits to mine? I choose God. QUOTE]

Why does it have to be obey entity-X versus obey entity-Y. Why not think for yourself, engage in rational discourse with your fellow humans, and come to a consensus with them about what is best for all of you?

 

[therebbe]

Gods law is meant to be justice for all.

But that is your interpretation of G-d's law. I have a different one. Therefore is it fair that I must be subject to yours?

 

[InToTheRain]

Why does it have to be obey entity-X versus obey entity-Y. Why not think for yourself, engage in rational discourse with your fellow humans, and come to a consensus with them about what is best for all of you?

Errr...Maybe because entitiy X is better the y,z,a,q,w,sd,,s,d,fs,df,....

It is laws for all of mankind, not just muslims.

You can't compare the laws provided by God through Islam to any other system or way of life. It is flawless because the laws are based on the guidance of a flawless bieng and no other religion (such as christianity, judaism) or way of life has laws which covers all aspects of an individuals life from birth to death.

Islam alone constitutes a complete, all-embracing, comprehensive way of life where the individual versus his society and material versus the spiritual are balanced into a perfect harmony. The laws of Islam are called the Shariah that provides an infallible Guidance of all aspects of individual and collective life. The Shariah embraces religious ritual, personal character, morals, intimate habits, family relationships, social and economic affairs, administration, rights and duties of citizens, judicial system, laws of war and peace and international relations. These injunctions enable the faithful to distinguish between what is good and evil, what is beneficial and harmful, what is useful or injurious, what are the virtues we must cultivate and encourage and what we must avoid; the sphere of our personal freedom and its limitations and what methods we must adopt to establish a genuine Islamic community. Islam teaches that unaided intellect and personal experience alone are unreliable and defective guides which can never discover sound ethical values. The purpose of ethical endeavour in Islam is to seek the pleasure of God. In Islam, morality is absolute and unchanging because its laws are instituted by God and not by man. The true Muslim does not change with the changing times but forces the times to conform to his standards.

As you can see it covers everything and is very practicle unlike laws by other religions or systems. If you study Islamic history there where many instances where Non-muslims lived in harmony with muslims in an Islamic state and they were flourishing, it started in year 638 and ended with the Ottoman empire in 1917. Even though internal conflicts occured before 1917, we can also see from its longetivity that it is very practicle.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

No one is telling u to like our rules. S*** why do u have to twist everything?
Good God grow up and get a life...
I never said that, so its u thinking it.

 

[Muezzin]

Um, yeah. Can we get back to the topic now?

 

[Ulysses]

Errr...Maybe because entitiy X is better the y,z,a,q,w,sd,,s,d,fs,df,....

It is laws for all of mankind, not just muslims.

You can't compare the laws provided by God through Islam to any other system or way of life. It is flawless because the laws are based on the guidance of a flawless bieng and no other religion (such as christianity, judaism) or way of life has laws which covers all aspects of an individuals life from birth to death.[shortened to safe space]

My apologies if what I have to say on this matter is disturbing to any of you as Muslims. In my ideal, all we humans shall one day live in a peaceful world, in which all worldviews which are not antagonistic, supremacist, or otherwise mutually incompatible with others or disruptive to the greater good will live in peaceful and mutualistic coexistence. This would linclude Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and all the other religions that do not define themselves in terms of their intrinsic superiority relative to any others.

Believing that you, your culture, your beliefs, or your way of life is intrinsically superior is I am afraid, a form of ethnic supremacism which will inevitably lead to antagonism, and conflict.

http://home.snu.edu/~HCULBERT/ethno.htm

The recognition that tolerance, and mutual respect are a critical part of a healthy modern society was one of the central philosophical developments of the European Renaissance and Reformation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Spinoza

Unfortunately, it was only following the harsh lessons of the crusades, the inquisition, and the interminable sectarian wars that plagued Europe in the Middle Ages that the philosophical seeds of the Reformation were planted. I fear that those seeds either have yet to be planted in Islamic soils, else the young seedlings are being fervently tramped down.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The recognition that tolerance, and mutual respect are a critical part of a healthy modern society was one of the central philosophical developments of the European Renaissance and Reformation.

Where did this Renaissance come from? The East, the Islamic Civilization, along with contributions of many civilizations.

 

[wilberhum]

Believing that you, your culture, your beliefs, or your way of life is intrinsically superior is I am afraid, a form of ethnic supremacism which will inevitably lead to antagonism, and conflict.

I just love it when some one presents such great points of wisdom.
This statement is a keeper and I'm sure there will be a number of opportunities to use it.

I have said many times that the concept of superiority is the easiest sell in the world and is the source of most of our conflicts.

 

[therebbe]

You can't compare the laws provided by God through Islam to any other system or way of life. It is flawless because the laws are based on the guidance of a flawless bieng and no other religion (such as christianity, judaism) or way of life has laws which covers all aspects of an individuals life from birth to death.

Untrue. Judaism covers every aspect of someones life. Judaism is a way of life, and holds much strciter diatary laws many say then Islam. Judaism also requires prayer 3 times or 4 times a day, and 5 times on many days.

Judaism and the way of life Jews have followed has been around much longer than Islamic law.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Well according to us Muslims, all the prophets came with the same message since day one. Also that Islam has been around always.

 

[therebbe]

Well according to us Muslims, all the prophets came with the same message since day one. Also that Islam has been around always.

Well are views differ on that then. My view is that the Torah has been the undeniable truth since Mt. Sinai and G-d says in it he will never give new laws or add or subtract from his word, and your view is it (the torah) is corrupted. Therefore, we have to agree to disagree.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Wow. Ya Allah! and u complain that people are bashing u or ur faith. How hypocritical. Tell me one time I have called ur views or ur faith corrupted? I may think it but im not stupid enuff to say it. Why? Because I have manners. You say u respect yet u call my views corrupted, meanwhile my comment was neutral not taking anyones side in particular. So why the double standards?

 

[therebbe]

Tell me one time I have called ur views or ur faith corrupted?

I didn't call our views corrupted.

I stated that the basic Jewish belief is that the Torah is G-d's word.

The Basic Muslims belief is that the Quran is G-d's word and the Torah was corrupted.

Therefore we have to agree to disagree.

No disprespect. Just explaining that we obviously will never agree on if Moses was Jewish or Muslim.

Remember, I said your view is that the Torah (my view) is corrupted. Since I have been led to believe that the Quran states the Torah was corrupted. I did not say "your view is corrupted" refering to Islamic belief as corrupt as you might have thought.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

My view is that the Torah has been the undeniable truth since Mt. Sinai and G-d says in it he will never give new laws or add or subtract from his word, and your view is it is corrupted.

Then I guess u might want to rephrase. People will think otherwise if you aren't careful.

 

[therebbe]

Then I guess u might want to rephrase. People will think otherwise if you aren't careful.

I wrote in parenthasis (Torah) to show what I meant. I see now the statement looked confusing

 

[Ulysses]

Where did this Renaissance come from? The East, the Islamic Civilization, along with contributions of many civilizations.

An interesting hypothesis has been considered which accounts for the apparent discrepancies of history. Consider, in 700 AD, the Islamic Caliphs were rising, growing, effervescent and promising, while Rome was in decline, on the defensive, and corrupt. Within a few hundred years, Spain and all of northern Africa had become the dominion of the followers of Muhammed (sorry can't remember exact dates), and the greater Caliphate of Islam in fact CONTINUED! to spread throughout remote parts of north Africa, into the near East (Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Malaysia) through the period which is known as Medieval History by Europeans. If there is a Golden Age for Islam it must have been at some point during this period, perhaps during Saladins' reign in (born 1137) reign 1165 to death at 1193. When a fair number of defeats against Crusaders were achieved, and at the same time, a fair number of reconciliations, and concessions that eased tensions between Islam and West were promoted.

According to the hypothesis, it is neither Islam, nor Euro influences which account for the lack fo follow through on the deeds of Saladin after his death, but rather two factors (a) a high prevalence of animosity for the 'other' in both groups in question, which naturally leads to antagonistic and hostile views by common folks in both groups and (b) a lack of appreciate in Christian leaders and groups for the significance and piety and holy decor of events followiing on the demise of Saladidn. In short, Muslims were universally mourning and contemplative, and had Europeans had the insight to approach the Muslim brothers with rhetoric of sympathy, understanding and respect during this phase, so much of the next several hundred years might have played out differentlyl.