Irritated and disgusted

[Suomipoika]

I did not support their Freedom of Speech because it degraded humanity as a whole.

*sigh*

Why always the need to insult my values? I am so tired of it to be honest, that people dont wish or seem to understand why they are so important to some of us, instead resort to bashing it at will.

All those little freedoms are very important to me, they are my "Islam". I believe very strongly in them. It would be wrong to say what you said about Islam, so why is it okay to say that about something that is dear to me?

I am really sorry that my values are misused to insult others.

The Muslims could, of course, make derrogatory statements about Denmark's mothers...

Yet, Denmark's mothers, along with all western women, have been insulted, many times, long before the cartoons were published and undoubtedly will be insulted many times more. I dont really believe that you have never in any form heard about the stereotypia of cheap fornicating prostitute western women.

Not to mention after the cartoons, everything danish was insulted very very eagerly, from the Queen and core values like Freedom of Speech to flag burning. People even suggested that the danes should change their values because someone misused them. Maybe next time someone misuses Islam we should make that same suggestion.

Which really brings me to my point. Its kind of sad that the so called criticism towards Islam by Wilders is just handpicked propaganda. Because I really think there is some serious criticism that should be directed against muslims, not so much against Islam.

There are many many videos made by several muslims that employ exactly the same strategy as what Wilders did. There are tons and tons of cartoons, the net is literally filled with them, drawn by several muslims that insults everything from West to Jews. There is abudance of negative stereotypia and racisms towards West and Westeners.

None of that makes the thread started want to cry. None of that makes people upset. Its like all the negative articles, videos, pictures and comments made by hundreds and hundreds (if not even thousands and thousands) of muslims simply exist in some alternative universe. There seems to be this moral highground play "our side" never does this and the westeners are so mean. It seems very unfair, and even hypocritical, I dont see muslims complaining about the racism originating from their fellow muslims.

Or maybe there really is lack of understanding. From what posts Ive read from Osman, he really seems like a good guy, yet, the only thing he can say is when one of my core values is insulted as degrading humanity as whole: "Interesting post" and a happy smiley.

Some questions:

1. Why dont acts of violence, racism, hatred done in the name of Islam generate so vocal and widespread anger as when someone saying or portraying Islam as violent? This is something that my thick skull just cannot understand, as hard as I try. Ill admit I am bit uneasy how to word this question, because Ive seen muslims condemning violence and there are things like that Syrian clerk condemning violence, or Spanish muslims issuing Fatwa against Al Qaida. But the volume is entirely different.

2. Has there ever been big anti-racism events by muslims against the negative stereotypia portrayal of west, western women and israel or jews?

3. The last one is for these forums specifically. If respecting others is so big deal, why, when I see really horrid stereotypia claims, like the west is pool of filth, there is very rarely a muslim speaking against it (sometimes Ive been surpriced, and repped the person in question, but most of the time, nothing)?

 

[aamirsaab]

*sigh*

Why always the need to insult my values? I am so tired of it to be honest, that people dont wish or seem to understand why they are so important to some of us, instead resort to bashing it at will.

All those little freedoms are very important to me, they are my "Islam". I believe very strongly in them. It would be wrong to say what you said about Islam, so why is it okay to say that about something that is dear to me?

I am really sorry that my values are misused to insult others.

It's not meant to insult your values at all. Rather it is meant to highlight the fact that freedom of speech is not being used responsibly. The whole purpose of freedom of speech is to speak out against injustice of the people - not for it.

Some questions:

1. Why dont acts of violence, racism, hatred done in the name of Islam generate so vocal and widespread anger as when someone saying or portraying Islam as violent? This is something that my thick skull just cannot understand, as hard as I try. Ill admit I am bit uneasy how to word this question, because Ive seen muslims condemning violence and there are things like that Syrian clerk condemning violence, or Spanish muslims issuing Fatwa against Al Qaida. But the volume is entirely different.

You are correct in that the volume is entirely different. It's the same with anything negative: look at popstars - any time they fall over or graze their knee, it is all over the tabloids. Yet, when has any tabloid every covered the amount of money they spend daily on charity or helping the poor (which I know that a few of them do)

2. Has there ever been big anti-racism events by muslims against the negative stereotypia portrayal of west, western women and israel or jews?

No but that's only because muslims feel persecuted right now. I myself am against all forms of racism and race hate. There are many muslims who are disgusted at those portrayals. One of them is me; I cannot stand it when a group is just insulted for being 'different than the norm'. I read in a newspaper that 2 people were beaten to death for dressing like Goths - it pissed me off big time. A pure crime against humanity - I wonder always what could drive a group of people to beat 2 others for doing nothing but walking - and this is coming from a student of psychology!

3. The last one is for these forums specifically. If respecting others is so big deal, why, when I see really horrid stereotypia claims, like the west is pool of filth, there is very rarely a muslim speaking against it (sometimes Ive been surpriced, and repped the person in question, but most of the time, nothing)?

I have tried to remain balanced in my criticism of the west (when I first started on this forum, I will admit I was quite the jerk and very naive - but I have learnt a lot since then). If you knew me in person you'd know that I do like the west; I just get angry at certain laws and steps that our goverment takes(one of them is the fact that adultery is not a crime, another is the fact that the UK is in a state of debt and what do we do? Build a casino... - so if stupid things like this happen I am not one to let it go. Of course, that doesn't mean I go on a rampage, but I will rant and rave about it). The majority of the time I'm happy with the west: it is where I grew up and live in. Hell, if I hadn't been raised where I was I probably wouldn't be who I am today - so I am happy with the west for the most part.
I've heard all the criticisms there are to be made of Islam, the west and pretty much everything else. I regard it as just plain ol' ignorance which I do talk about - maybe not as much in the forum, but I do certainly not agree with all these criticisms as most are unfounded especially since I live in the west! Ah well, that's the price you pay for being open-minded .

 

[Azy]

So much for moderation. So much for tolerance. So much for 'showing them how we really are'.

Dare I ask what you were doing the first time round and who that 'really is'?

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

*sigh*

All those little freedoms are very important to me, they are my "Islam". I believe very strongly in them. It would be wrong to say what you said about Islam, so why is it okay to say that about something that is dear to me?

I know, it does seem a bit two-faced... even Bush has to endure a lot of ribbing (referring to the video released of him picking his nose in public), but there's a difference between poking fun and defaming. Here in the United States we've been defining what we call "hate crimes" - and this has even brought a halt to the publication and imitation of noose hangings. Under normal circumstances you don't find many people behaving in such juvenile ways, but the society has degraded as a result of unlimited freedoms, and we needed those laws set into place.

I like Osama's words the best. He said: You have gone overboard in your disbelief and have not practiced the ettequettes of debating and fighting. I have asked him to elaborate more on what he means by these etiquettes so there is more understanding. The way the man has been talking as of late, I think he should give up on weapons and focus more on his meanings and definitions because fighting and antagonizing is going nowhere and his points as of late are incredibly valid.

I was surprized my post was made because the server went down for a memory upgrade just when I hit the Post button.

The Nnth Scribe

 

[Amadeus85]

I am just bit suprised that so many people pay attention to such meaningless things like those movies. That movie wont change anything, so is it worth to mention about it? And the sad but true thing is that current Europe's elites are anti-religious and muslims should get used to such things, since they decided to live in the most atheistic continent in the world .

 

[Uthman]

I thought the majority of Muslims didn't live in Europe? :?

In any case, I think we are becoming accustomed to it...fast. But that doesn't mean we have to accept it. We can resist...peacefully.

 

[Suomipoika]

It's not meant to insult your values at all. Rather it is meant to highlight the fact that freedom of speech is not being used responsibly. The whole purpose of freedom of speech is to speak out against injustice of the people - not for it.

That line I have heard before, for example when the danish cartoons were originally published. I dont really remember that being enough tho.

Can I really criticise yours or anyones religion or values by saying its degrading humanity as a whole when someone misuses it?

You are correct in that the volume is entirely different. It's the same with anything negative: look at popstars - any time they fall over or graze their knee, it is all over the tabloids. Yet, when has any tabloid every covered the amount of money they spend daily on charity or helping the poor (which I know that a few of them do)

However Im not talking about tabloids. Im talking about muslims. Why is the muslim reaction so different when someone does evil in the name of Islam compared to when someone says Islam justifies that evil.

Where is/was/were the demonstrations and mass outrage on the same scale as was during danish cartoons or now with Geert Wilders movie against people who perpetrate violence in the name of Islam? If its really media not reporting those good things, then where do I have to look to find information about such large scale demonstrations?

No but that's only because muslims feel persecuted right now. I myself am against all forms of racism and race hate. There are many muslims who are disgusted at those portrayals. One of them is me; I cannot stand it when a group is just insulted for being 'different than the norm'. I read in a newspaper that 2 people were beaten to death for dressing like Goths - it pissed me off big time. A pure crime against humanity - I wonder always what could drive a group of people to beat 2 others for doing nothing but walking - and this is coming from a student of psychology!

I guess my problem is that those muslims arent vocal enough anywhere I look, not even in a muslim forum.

I have tried to remain balanced in my criticism of the west (when I first started on this forum, I will admit I was quite the jerk and very naive - but I have learnt a lot since then). If you knew me in person you'd know that I do like the west; I just get angry at certain laws and steps that our goverment takes(one of them is the fact that adultery is not a crime, another is the fact that the UK is in a state of debt and what do we do? Build a casino... - so if stupid things like this happen I am not one to let it go. Of course, that doesn't mean I go on a rampage, but I will rant and rave about it). The majority of the time I'm happy with the west: it is where I grew up and live in. Hell, if I hadn't been raised where I was I probably wouldn't be who I am today - so I am happy with the west for the most part.
I've heard all the criticisms there are to be made of Islam, the west and pretty much everything else. I regard it as just plain ol' ignorance which I do talk about - maybe not as much in the forum, but I do certainly not agree with all these criticisms as most are unfounded especially since I live in the west! Ah well, that's the price you pay for being open-minded .

My favorite hobby besides raving and ranting is whining, I enjoy whining about the goverment and take personal pride how good I am at it. But this isnt really about criticism towards west, this is about criticism towards west that uses exactly same strategy and tactics as what is complained to be used when criticising Islam and to a lesser degree about the racism towards west. And the simple lack of responce when something else than Islam is target when such strategy is used, and the targeter is a muslim.

For example look at this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134265003-palestinian-holocaust-memorial-museum.html

It uses the same strategy as the Wilders movie. First handpick horrible violence like Wilders did that suits your agenda, this one uses children, even dead children. Secondly pick a sensitive issue for the non-muslims, and holocaust, in many ways it is a taboo for (central?) europeans due to the historical baggage. Trying to deny it or using it inappropriately will upset many europeans. Holocaust is perfect term for this purpose, because it is a subject that undeniably will make us europeans (tho its good to remember the laws are different from country to country) look hypocritical due to the laws we have in regards holocaust denial and how apparently we dont respect other people's taboos. Thirdly, scaremonger and exaggerate the hole thing, using the word holocaust alone exaggerates the hole thing, and exaggerating was what Wilders did in his movie alot. Fourthly, carefully select the wording, Im sure its no mistake that only the general who said something about holocaust is quoted for this "survivor" story. Just like Wilders didnt accidentally just pick the negative things some muslims have said.

Why doesnt such outrageous use of Wilders strategy cause condemnation? Irony on me tho, its actually the thread started here who argues against the use of word holocaust.

Or maybe this:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134265083-dutch-mp-posts-islam-film-web-2.html#post921123

Someone there wants to make a similar video about christianity. Why doesnt someone wanting to attack and portray other people's religion same way Islam just was cause reaction?

Here is one more, I decided to add this too, because... well... muslims seem to be very sensitive about Mohammed, thus one would imagine that such sensitivines would spread over to other people's important Prophets and their relations to God and the next video after Wilders that attacks Prophet Mohammed is what actually caused this thread to be posted in the first place.
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134265083-dutch-mp-posts-islam-film-web-5.html#post921981

Why is such remarks going unnoticed about other peoples beliefs and their prophet?

While Im being very "Wilderian" in handpicking these things said, there is actually a point, and Ill be very happy if someone proves me wrong. Yet, where is the condemnation that is apparent whenever something negative is said about Islam? Sure we have some overly generalised statements against racism and for tolerance. But when there are real racist comments, propaganda garbage (or is such strategy okay, when one agrees with the message?) on par with Wilders movie, attacks against other people's faith done by some muslims, its like all the rest are competing who is the best looking at other way and ignoring what was said. Where are the comments and condemnations? Where is the respect?

Where can we really expect to see muslims condemning such behaviour no matter who it comes from, and showing how Islam really is, if its not a forum that has Islam written all over it?

 

[aamirsaab]

That line I have heard before, for example when the danish cartoons were originally published. I dont really remember that being enough tho.

Well, it's the best I can do. I'm all for freedom of speech as long as that freedom is not taken above any other freedom. As it stands, it seems that people in general are giving up everything for freedom of speech.

Can I really criticise yours or anyones religion or values by saying its degrading humanity as a whole when someone misuses it?

No because that is being ignorant. What you originally qouted was a comment about how freedom of speech is being used (i.e to spread intentionaly ignorant and bigoted hatred of 20% of the world population)

However Im not talking about tabloids. Im talking about muslims. Why is the muslim reaction so different when someone does evil in the name of Islam compared to when someone says Islam justifies that evil.

I have my theories and one is that narrow-minded bigot always have a louder voice than open-minded folk (such as moi)

Where is/was/were the demonstrations and mass outrage on the same scale as was during danish cartoons or now with Geert Wilders movie against people who perpetrate violence in the name of Islam? If its really media not reporting those good things, then where do I have to look to find information about such large scale demonstrations?

I believe there were several demonstrations in denmark and a few other countries. Boycotts have also been done since they have a more ''potent'' affect. The majority of muslims are voicing their opinions - just in different ways. Some like me have been put off by demos - they have little affect unless someone goes angry and sets fire to a building or a flag, unfortunately.

I guess my problem is that those muslims arent vocal enough anywhere I look, not even in a muslim forum.

Perhaps, but we are vocal where it counts; and that is in the mosques and at various talks (we have 1 every saturday in leicester)

...But this isnt really about criticism towards west, this is about criticism towards west that uses exactly same strategy and tactics as what is complained to be used when criticising Islam and to a lesser degree about the racism towards west. And the simple lack of responce when something else than Islam is target when such strategy is used, and the targeter is a muslim.

As I said before: ignorance is always louder than open-mindedness.

For example look at this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134265003-palestinian-holocaust-memorial-museum.html

It uses the same strategy as the Wilders movie. First handpick horrible violence like Wilders did that suits your agenda, this one uses children, even dead children. Secondly pick a sensitive issue for the non-muslims, and holocaust, in many ways it is a taboo for (central?) europeans due to the historical baggage. Trying to deny it or using it inappropriately will upset many europeans. Holocaust is perfect term for this purpose, because it is a subject that undeniably will make us europeans (tho its good to remember the laws are different from country to country) look hypocritical due to the laws we have in regards holocaust denial and how apparently we dont respect other people's taboos. Thirdly, scaremonger and exaggerate the hole thing, using the word holocaust alone exaggerates the hole thing, and exaggerating was what Wilders did in his movie alot. Fourthly, carefully select the wording, Im sure its no mistake that only the general who said something about holocaust is quoted for this "survivor" story. Just like Wilders didnt accidentally just pick the negative things some muslims have said.

I don't approve of such tactics and neither do a lot of muslims I myself know - it is cheap an shameful - we aren't supposed to do stuff like that in Islam anyway. There are always a few muslims who will approve of it, just as there are non-muslims who will always approve of people like wilders.

Why doesnt such outrageous use of Wilders strategy cause condemnation? Irony on me tho, its actually the thread started here who argues against the use of word holocaust.

Or maybe this:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134265083-dutch-mp-posts-islam-film-web-2.html#post921123

Someone there wants to make a similar video about christianity. Why doesnt someone wanting to attack and portray other people's religion same way Islam just was cause reaction?

Revenge usually. Or a twisted form of justice - again which I do not approve of.

Here is one more, I decided to add this too, because... well... muslims seem to be very sensitive about Mohammed, thus one would imagine that such sensitivines would spread over to other people's important Prophets and their relations to God and the next video after Wilders that attacks Prophet Mohammed is what actually caused this thread to be posted in the first place.
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134265083-dutch-mp-posts-islam-film-web-5.html#post921981

Why is such remarks going unnoticed about other peoples beliefs and their prophet?

Actually, if you knew as much about Islam as I do. you'd know that each and every prophet is sacred in Islam since they all were sent by God. But people in general don't know this and simply take potshots at Islam and usually the Prophet Muhammad is being slandered in doing so. I do not approve of slandering ANY of the prophets. But there is little I can do other than condemn it. I am not responsible for someone else's actions (unless of course I have told them directly to do that----but this is me we are talking about )

While Im being very "Wilderian" in handpicking these things said, there is actually a point, and Ill be very happy if someone proves me wrong. Yet, where is the condemnation that is apparent whenever something negative is said about Islam? Sure we have some overly generalised statements against racism and for tolerance. But when there are real racist comments, propaganda garbage (or is such strategy okay, when one agrees with the message?) on par with Wilders movie, attacks against other people's faith done by some muslims, its like all the rest are competing who is the best looking at other way and ignoring what was said. Where are the comments and condemnations? Where is the respect?

Again, I condemn what I can and if you knew me in person, you'd know that I am very respectful to all. But what you want is mass condemnation and I cannot give you that; people can but not a person.

Where can we really expect to see muslims condemning such behaviour no matter who it comes from, and showing how Islam really is, if its not a forum that has Islam written all over it?

I agree with what you have written. But what exactly do you want me to do? I've heard these sorts of arguments and complaints before: oh why don't muslims condemn this or that? And my response is what exactly is it that you want me (or ''us'') to do about it other than condemn it (which I do every day). If people want something from muslims then start being specific - people in general have wanted a lot from muslims since 9/11 but they have never been satisfied with what 'we' have given, so let's stop pussy footing around it and get to the point - it's been 6 or so years and all I hear from certain folk is ''You aren't doing enough''. Well fine then, let's hear exactly what it is, cus I'm sick and tired of this BS.

 

[Muezzin]

People as a whole, Muslim or non-Muslim, get upset and offended far too easily. Lighten up, guys. Life's too short.

And other assorted cliches.

 

[Uthman]

Here is a list of condemnations of violence in the name of Islam, by Muslims. And boy, is it a long list.

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Don't expect this to reach the mainstream media. It's too peaceful to attract much attention at all.

 

[Suomipoika]

I agree with what you have written. But what exactly do you want me to do? I've heard these sorts of arguments and complaints before: oh why don't muslims condemn this or that? And my response is what exactly is it that you want me (or ''us'') to do about it other than condemn it (which I do every day). If people want something from muslims then start being specific - people in general have wanted a lot from muslims since 9/11 but they have never been satisfied with what 'we' have given, so let's stop pussy footing around it and get to the point - it's been 6 or so years and all I hear from certain folk is ''You aren't doing enough''. Well fine then, let's hear exactly what it is, cus I'm sick and tired of this BS.

What am I supposed to say to that? I even had to ask myself if Im indirectly saying that, "you arent doing enough". Shame to me, perhaps I am little. I dont really know how to continue from here, politely enough, because the last thing I want to do is insult others. And if I say or said something stupid I apologize for that.

Im living in second largest city in Finland, which is actually so small place, that in rest of the world most probably wouldnt even bother to place so small towns on their own country map. In this small place, I cant even remember when was the last time I saw Hijab on the street. I know there are some muslims living in here, but, when was the last time I even accidentally saw one? No idea.

But I am curious, about world politics, about Islam, about what muslim thinks, so I type on search words on google, and end up here. While most of the time I just enjoy lurking here and reading, this place is actually the first place, where I have ever had any meaningful discussion with someone who clearly proclaims him or herself to be a muslim.

So here we come to the problem of mine. Im lurking here, every once in a while something bad is said about something else other than Islam, and most of the time its ignored, I used to ignore most of it, like I used to ignore almost everything negative said about anything. But little by little its starting to stick on me, especially since negative things said and done about Islam by media or random non-muslim gets so much attention. Not to mention the endless victim tirades and conspiracy theories get old really fast.

I see so little attention to these negative things done by some muslims. I mean if I whine to mods, most of the time stuff gets edited away sooner or later. And I know there is no problem condemning racist and negative things being said and done by non-muslims. So is that really too much to ask, that on these forums, stupid things said by muslims about west or anything, would be condemned by muslims too? Is wanting something like that really wrong? I cant see into your mosques, I cant attend your meetings, I cant read your minds, yet I can google your forum and read the negative words said here.

Peace.

Here is a list of condemnations of violence in the name of Islam, by Muslims. And boy, is it a long list.

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Don't expect this to reach the mainstream media. It's too peaceful to attract much attention at all.

Thank you for the list. I guess it invalidates some of my criticism.

 

[Uthman]

Suomipoika, I guess both sides are to blame. And at the same time, neither side is to blame.

To be honest, I would probably feel the same way as you, were I in your position. It's not at all difficult to imagine things from your point of view. And it really makes people like me and aamirsaab helpless when we see the negative actions and words of so-called Muslims, and there really is little we can do to stop the consequences of those words and actions. The truth is that we sometimes see hate coming out of the mouths of some Muslim's mouths so often, that at this stage, we have now become oblivious to it.

Peaceful resistance is never really going to attract the media's attention because it doesn't make much noise. Not only that, but it hardly sells as much newspapers either.

But we won't stop fighting. Will you help us?

 

[Suomipoika]

But we won't stop fighting. Will you help us?

This is an intresting turn of events, but how can one really help?

Anyway, yes, Id be more than willing to do that.

 

[Uthman]

but how can one really help?

My point exactly. Perhaps I have more power than you to rectify the situation. But I am still pretty much powerless.

 

[Suomipoika]

My point exactly.

That was really good one tho.

 

[aamirsaab]

What am I supposed to say to that? I even had to ask myself if Im indirectly saying that, "you arent doing enough". Shame to me, perhaps I am little. I dont really know how to continue from here, politely enough, because the last thing I want to do is insult others. And if I say or said something stupid I apologize for that.

It's ok now. I'm glad we were able to have this conversation

I see so little attention to these negative things done by some muslims. I mean if I whine to mods, most of the time stuff gets edited away sooner or later. And I know there is no problem condemning racist and negative things being said and done by non-muslims. So is that really too much to ask, that on these forums, stupid things said by muslims about west or anything, would be condemned by muslims too? Is wanting something like that really wrong? I cant see into your mosques, I cant attend your meetings, I cant read your minds, yet I can google your forum and read the negative words said here.

Peace.

I will endevour to shout louder at any negative stereotypes I see in addition to condemning more so. Thank you for showing respect throughout the past few posts. And also, thank you for not exploding to my comment (which you could easily have done but you didn't and I respect that). I do appreciate it a lot.

Peace

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I thought the majority of Muslims didn't live in Europe? :?

In any case, I think we are becoming accustomed to it...fast. But that doesn't mean we have to accept it. We can resist...peacefully.

Yes, resist peacefully, then again and then once more. Then failing that...

"When all other means have failed, It is but lawful to take to the sword." This is the Sikh way as instructed by the Tenth Master Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Mahraaj Ji Sahib!

 

[MaiCarInMtl]

I know someone who watched the latest video/documentary put out on YouTube and he was very depressed after. He tried to defend Islam in the comments section and of course got smacked down by basically everyone. So I guess sometimes talking and trying to explain just isn't going to work as it seems many are perfectly happy with their ignorance and hate.

The only advice I could offer him was to lead by good example, even if he feels he is the only one doing the right thing, even if he feels he cannot make a difference alone. If only one person takes notice of the actions of another, how they embody the teachings of their religion, then great good has already been done.

It's due to all the bad publicity and then meeting one muslim that I started looking into Islam. I've since met many more (some good, some bad) and I will admit that it's easier to remember all the bad examples people give and the media loves to feed on this. Also, remeber that it is easier to control people (get them to think and act how you want) through fear-mongering.

Lead by example, that's the only advice I can give... Oh and don't watch those silly videos, they accomplish nothing but upset you and waste your time.