Is 3rd world war close?

[Jibril]

Jibril;


That is simply not true. Counting loan guarantees and grants (which were phased out in the late '50's) the US has subsidized Israel to the tune of about 100 B $ since 1949 (about $11,000 per current Israeli). That is 58 yrs..so the per capita annual spending is about $190!!!

The current US Federal Budget is about 2.6 TRILLION $ If you throw out interest on the debt and the DOD budget ...I think its somewhere North of 1.5 T$ on entitlements. There are about 300 Million Americans

So we have 1.5 x 10**12 / 3 x 10**8 =5 x 10**3 = 5,000 $ per capita per year.

And that is only the Federal spending.


It's not even close. you are off by a factor of 25 (not including defence, interest on the debt or state and local spending).

I'm not talking about the aggregate. But this year, or last, or the year before. And keep in mind that Israel has a pop of 5 mil.

 

[Cognescenti]

OBL can claim he is the next Saladin, it doesn't make it so. The link between Al Qaeda and Black Hawk Down is weak to non-existant. Everybody acknowledges that the battle was not pre-planned it was spontaneous. The most authoritative work on the incident, which is Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down also descredits this account. Its simply a case of Al Qaeda taking credit for something they didn't do. Similiar to their claims of having brought down the USSR.

Quite possibly OBL is full of it. I agree. Linkage between Aidid and OBL was not central to my point. In fact, it wasn't even in my original post on the issue. The point is the US accepted quite a few international unpleasantries before we decided to do something about it. Now, because we decided to fight back...we are "bullies"

 

[Cognescenti]

The UN/US had accomplished its mission of securing the food destribution network. On this account Aidid never resisted. So in essence the conflict with Aidid had nothing whatsoever to do with the humanitarian aspect of Operation Restore Hope. It was only within the realm of nation-building and political reconciliation that Aidid started fighting with the UN. So TFR had absolutely nothing to do with the humanitarian aspect of the Somalia mission.

Who killed the Pakistani peacekeepers, who, as I recall, were assigned to escort UN relief officials. Sitting Bull?

You make it sound like everyone in Somolia had a swimming pool and an Escalade after the intitial emergency relief mission.

They were not ingrates,..it was UN/US political and military blunders that forced the Habr Gidr Somalis to defend themselves.

It was the Habr Gidr clans resistance to doing things the UN way that led to friction. I can understand their reluctance...quite a few would have had to get used to working for a living. On this much we agree.....It was the mistake of the US to be involved in the mission in the first place. Big mistake. We have targets on our chests. When the underarmed Pakistanis get slaughtered, they call on the baddest guys on the block to help...then realtionships just go downhill from there.

BTW...what did the Pakistanis do to get them so mad? Some of their soldiers were skinned :uuh:

 

[Cognescenti]

I'm not talking about the aggregate. But this year, or last, or the year before. And keep in mind that Israel has a pop of 5 mil.

For 2006

* $544.8 billion (20.90%) - Social Security
* $447.4 billion (17.17%) - Defense
* $359.5 billion (13.79%) - Unemployment and welfare
* $345.7 billion (13.26%) - Medicare
* $268.4 billion (10.30%) - Medicaid and other health related
* $211.1 billion (8.10%) - Interest on debt
* $88.7 billion (3.40%) - Education and training
* $70.7 billion (2.71%) - Transportation
* $68.4 billion (2.62%) - Veterans' benefits
* $43.1 billion (1.65%) - Administration of justice
* $38.4 billion (1.47%) - Foreign affairs
* $31.2 billion (1.20%) - Natural resources and environment
* $26.0 billion (1.00%) - Agriculture
* $24.0 billion (0.92%) - Science and technology
* $19.1 billion (0.73%) - Community and regional development
* $17.8 billion (0.68%) - General government
* $2.1 billion (0.08%) - Energy

All Foreign Affairs ....1.47% of Federal spending...that includes the State Department budget

Social Secuirty spending alone is 15x as much.

 

[Jibril]

Who killed the Pakistani peacekeepers, who, as I recall, were assigned to escort UN relief officials. Sitting Bull?

You are not making a distinction between Aidid and the Habr Gidr. This shows the simplistic perspective you're taking.

About the Pakistani peacekeepers,..do you know why they were attacked? They went to inspect Aidid's radio station without notifying them only after the UN started to cut him out of the reconciliation process. His militia felt that they were under attack and so they attacked the Pakistanis quite brutally. But again,...this was due to a UN blunder. Mind you I abhore Aidid, he was a thug and a murderer. But you don't seem to know the details of what happened in Somalia.

Anyhow, the answer to 24 dead peacekeepers is not to isolate the entire clan!!!

It was the Habr Gidr clans resistance to doing things the UN way that led to friction. I can understand their reluctance...quite a few would have had to get used to working for a living. On this much we agree.....It was the mistake of the US to be involved in the mission in the first place. Big mistake. We have targets on our chests. When the underarmed Pakistanis get slaughtered, they call on the baddest guys on the block to help...then realtionships just go downhill from there.

You really need to learn how to differentiate between the Habr Gidr and Aidid. I just posted that in the summer of 93',..most Habr Gidr elders were fed up with Aidid and wanted him to stop resisting the UN/US. For their efforts they got blown to bits by US helicopters.

. I can understand their reluctance...quite a few would have had to get used to working for a living.

Thats quite offensive. The Habr Gidr clan are no different than you or me, and you're insulting and demonizing an entire group based on 1 man who held them hostage. I'm quite honestly surprised and disappointed that you would make such a bigoted statement.

 

[Cognescenti]

Thats quite offensive. The Habr Gidr clan are no different than you or me, and you're insulting and demonizing an entire group based on 1 man who held them hostage. I'm quite honestly surprised and disappointed that you would make such a bigoted statement.

Yes..I can see why someone might find that offensive. It is hard hitting, but you will note I qualified it. I did not demonize an entire group. I was referring to the young men weaned on civil war, many of whom doubtless thought the Toyota pickup had been invented to carry a heavy machine gun. Do you think they could easily make the switch to farming lentils? Let's not pretend the warring factions were sitting under a great oak drawing up the Somali version of the Magna Carta when the UN arrived. It was a brutal civil war where starvation of civilians was used as a weapon. When the UN arrived (with the Marines) to supply help, they charged the aid workers protection money. Nice work, if you can get it.

BTW...the other side(s) in the civil war were likely just as brutal...but they chose to cooperate with the UN plan. Aidid did not. I dont pretend to know why. Perhaps he thought he held a winning hand.

The way I see it..the first mission was well meaning..it succeeded..it began to morph into nation-building because of ligitimate concerns the same thing would happen all over again....it didn't work our very well..to say the least, but to say the "Americans got what they deserved" is something I find offensive.

 

[Jibril]

BTW...the other side(s) in the civil war were likely just as brutal...but they chose to cooperate with the UN plan. Aidid did not. I dont pretend to know why. Perhaps he thought he held a winning hand.

You're really showing how little you know of the situation. It was not Aidid who simply *chose* not to cooperate with the UN,....it was the UN that decided he had to be cut out of the whole process. For some reason Boutros Boutros Ghali had a serious axe to grind with Aidid ever since his days with the Egyptian government,...but everyone including Ambassador Robert Oakley acknowledge that it was the UN that started the antagonistic relationship with Aidid. No doubt Aidid was a SOB, but as a practical matter this was a bone headed decision on the UN's part.

, but to say the "Americans got what they deserved" is something I find offensive.

You're ignoring the fact that the TFR was killing hundreds of Somalis long before Oct 3. Why should sympathy be spared for trained soldiers when none was spared for innocent civilians,..for e.g. the Abdi House victims? I notice you didn't even bother to address that part of my post. I think it might be true that Americans deep inside feel American life is inherently worth more than nonAmerican life especially Africans.

 

[Cognescenti]

You're really showing how little you know of the situation. It was not Aidid who simply *chose* not to cooperate with the UN,....it was the UN that decided he had to be cut out of the whole process. For some reason Boutros Boutros Ghali had a serious axe to grind with Aidid ever since his days with the Egyptian government,...but everyone including Ambassador Robert Oakley acknowledge that it was the UN that started the antagonistic relationship with Aidid. No doubt Aidid was a SOB, but as a practical matter this was a bone headed decision on the UN's part.

Good to hear the UN gets some of the blame. At least we can agree on that. My guess is the UN was trying to fashion some pie in the sky compromise, meanwhile Aidid knew he had the most Toyota 50 cal pick-ups and could outlast the UN, which is exactly what happened in the end. You may be right..perhaps Boutros by Golly had it in for Aidid, but Aidid was no saint and he was clearly ambitious. My opinions were formed chiefly from the LA Times and NPR. Maybe they got the story wrong. I think I saw a Frontline piece on this too. I have never been to Somalia and it is likely I will never go, especailly on an American passport.

You're ignoring the fact that the TFR was killing hundreds of Somalis long before Oct 3. Why should sympathy be spared for trained soldiers when none was spared for innocent civilians,..for e.g. the Abdi House victims? I notice you didn't even bother to address that part of my post. I think it might be true that Americans deep inside feel American life is inherently worth more than nonAmerican life especially Africans.

Didn't you explain before that Aidid's clan was simply rallying around their bretheren in a noble fashion? Well...that is what I am doing. I don't blame the US military in this case..perhaps they didn't appreciate the subleties of Somali politics ( I can see why :smile: ). Some chowderhead at the UN gave them the mission. This is why you dont fight under the blue helmets. To make matters worse, their own Sec of Def. failed to support them. When I seee the body of a half naked American soldier being dragged around by a jubilant crowd it just saps all my compassion away...I am here to admit it.

As for the last bit...if that is directed at me, then it appears I have graduated from simple bigotry to racism. Wow, I am really moving up in the world, eh?

 

[Cognescenti]

Jibril;

This seems to be an issue close to your heart. I respect your empathy, but in my opinion you need to be a bit more careful about the racism charge. It is easy to make and almost impossible to refute. It also tends to be the last arrow in the quiver.

You will note, with some irony I hope, that the same charge was used to pressure Bush 41 to send the Marines to Somalia in the first place!. Ditto Clinton and the 82nd being sent to Haiti. Even now, it is whispered by some to pressure the US to do something militarily about Darfur.

Peace