Is Allah a personal God?

[جوري]

On another level, it reminds us, in the words of another hadith qudsi, that "Neither my heavens nor My earth encompass Me, but the Heart of My believing servant does encompass Me." The Heart of the believing servant, emptied of the lower self, may be likened to the empty space within the Kacbah (a word which means "cube" in Arabic), within which every orientation faces the qibla, hence "And God's is east and west; and wherever you turn, there is the face of God. Behold, God is infinite, all-knowing" (Qur'ân 2:115).


The idea of a 'personal God' denotes to me, a God of an exclusive few. I believe that God is The God of all, even his non-believing servants..

I also remember another hadith, I can't source at the moment, There lived an idolater in the past who made an idol out of stone and would worship it everyday. He would call it upon it by saying "Ya Sanam." For seventy years, he worshiped this idol. One day by mistake he uttered "Ya Samad" instead of Ya Sanam. Samad is a name of Allah which means The Self Sufficient Master. Allah Ta'ala immediately replied back to this idolater by saying "I am present oh My slave." The angels asked Allah why He replied to him since he didn't even call upon Him intentionally. Allah told the angels that for seventy years I have been waiting for this servant of mine to turn towards Me!
If anyone can source this hadith for me I'd be much obliged..
nonetheless, I don't believe in a God just for Jews or a Human God or a spirit God.. I believe in a God well beyond our scope, else why would he need him if he were one of us or for a select few of us?

all the best

 

[mattityahu]

Does his omnipotence stop him from turning into a mouse? (This is a serious question)

OK...does his omnipotence stop him from doing something?? By definition, omnipotence is being able to do anything (or, more conservatively, anything which is logically possible).

Yours,
M

 

[جوري]

Ayat al-Kursi is the answer to your Q's

In the Name of Allâh, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High. The Supreme (in glory)."
(This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat al-Kursi)

to listen:

http://www.mounthira.com/learning/ayat/alkursi/ayatulkursi/

 

[Hamayun]

OK...does his omnipotence stop him from doing something?? By definition, omnipotence is being able to do anything (or, more conservatively, anything which is logically possible).

Yours,
M

Define "logically"

Who's logic?

 

[glo]

Greetings,

As for the main topic - I have a hard enough time understanding what people mean when they talk about god. Start talking about a personal god and I have no idea what is being referred to.

Peace

Hi CZ

By 'God' I mean a divine force greater than ourselves.
By 'personal God' I mean a God who concerns himself with each of us individually ... in contrast, perhaps, to a deity who simply demands to be followed and obeyed.

Does that make it clearer?

Peace

 

[GreyKode]

OK...does his omnipotence stop him from doing something?? By definition, omnipotence is being able to do anything (or, more conservatively, anything which is logically possible).

Yours,
M

Exactly, you see where the problem is? Does God being omnipotent mean he can turn into a mouse? Yes, he can turn into a mouse, but isn't a mouse mortal, and can be easily killed. Yes!!!
But obviously contradicts the nature of GOD.

Therefore God by definition performs only GODLY things. So you can't argue that because GOD is omnipotent he can turn into a man.

And ALLAH(swt) knows best.

 

[Yanal]

It's both as I see it because he does command loyalty and he does only answer the prayers of the people who love him,and thats that,it's an opinion question and thats my opinion as you can see it.

 

[mattityahu]

So you can't argue that because GOD is omnipotent he can turn into a man.

I've never argued that in this thread - the "omnipotence" thing has been a tangential matter. All you seem to be arguing is that there are things which are logically impossible for Allah/God, although I'm not exactly convinced by your reasoning. I guess the fundamental theological question is "Is Allah/God bound by logic?" but that is a discussion for another day!

Yours,
M

 

[Muhammad]

I'm interested in this phrase "closer than your jugular vein". I believe this is only found in the Qur'an, 50:16, which says "We created the human, and we know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular vein." The context seems to suggest that the phrase refers to Allah's omniscience and omnipresence. I'm not convinced that this teaches that Allah is personal - indeed 50:17 then says "Two recording (angels), at right and at left, are constantly recording." - I don't know of any genuine loving personal relationships where one person is constantly checking up on the other to make sure the other isn't sinning against them. The ones I know of involve trust.

Allaah (swt) is not omnipresent (i.e. present everywhere at the same time). You can refer to the following threads for more information:

http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-shirk/134272920-allah-exists-without-place.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-shirk/48676-video-allah-not-all-around-us-he-above-heavens.html



As for being a personal God, there are many verses of the Qur'an as well as Hadeeth that could be cited. Here are just some of them:


Verily, my Lord is Most Merciful, Most Loving. [11:90]

Truly, Allah is full of Kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind. [2:143]

Allah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. [2:185]

And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism) and ask Me for anything] I will respond to your (invocation).[40:60]

And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright. [2:186]

He it is Who sends Salat (His blessings) on you, and His angels too (ask Allah to bless and forgive you), that He may bring you out from darkness (of disbelief and polytheism) into light (of Belief and Islamic Monotheism). And He is Ever Most Merciful to the believers.[33:43]

Allah mentions some of the favors He has done for His creatures, such as creating the heavens as a protective ceiling and the earth as a bed. He also sends down rain from the sky and, in its aftermath brings forth a variety of vegetation, fruits and plants of different colors, shapes, tastes, scents and uses. Allah also made the ships sail on the surface of the water by His command and He made the sea able to carry these ships in order that travelers can transfer from one area to another to transport goods. Allah also created the rivers that flow through the earth from one area to another as provision for the servants which they use to drink and irrigate, and for other benefits, [...]

Allah said next,

(And He gave you of all that you asked for), He has prepared for you all that you need in all conditions, and what you ask Him to provide for you,

(and if you [try to] count the blessings of Allah, never will you be able to count them.) Allah states that the servants are never able to count His blessings, let alone thank Him duly for them
​

Some Hadeeth:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said:
Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him.
(Bukhari)

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'If Allah loves a person, He calls Gabriel, saying, 'Allah loves so and so, O Gabriel love him' So Gabriel would love him and then would make an announcement in the Heavens: 'Allah has loved so and-so therefore you should love him also.' So all the dwellers of the Heavens would love him, and then he is granted the pleasure of the people on the earth.' (Bukhari)

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said, "Allah has divided mercy into one hundred parts; and He retained with Him ninety-nine parts, and sent down to earth one part. Through this one part creatures deal with one another with compassion, so much so that an animal lifts its hoof over its young lest it should hurt it". [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]

On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (PBUH) said: Allah the Almighty said:
I am as My servant thinks I am (i.e. forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed. (Bukhari, Muslim)

On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (PBUH) is that among the sayings he relates from his Lord (may He be glorified) is that He said:
O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you, O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and will not attain benefitting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more that a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other that blame no one but himself. (Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah)

Peace.

 

[mattityahu]

Thanks, Muhammad, for your post. May I first just comment that my usage of "omnipresent" is referring to Allah's being able to be present anywhere (not that he is always everywhere, although my definition doesn't exclude this possiblility). Second, could you perhaps comment on your understanding of "closer than your jugular vein" and what that means?

Many thanks,
M

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I struggle to understand how Allah can be personal while at the same time the doctrine of Tawheed being true. For example, if Allah is fundamentally relational, who did he relate to before he created other beings? Is Allah reliant upon his creation in order to be loving, merciful, etc?

It seems you have not understood the doctrine of Tawheed. Allaah (swt) is self-sufficient and not at all reliant on anyone or anything.

OK...does his omnipotence stop him from doing something?? By definition, omnipotence is being able to do anything (or, more conservatively, anything which is logically possible).

These issues are actually taking the thread off a tangent. Your answer can be found here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/12762-can-god-create-stone-heavier-than-him.html

I find it interesting that Allah's listening to prayers is conditional on "calling upon" him (which means worship, does it not?). It's also conditional on "believing in him" - seems odd that this is mentioned as you would think it implicitly obvious that you believe in someone when you talk to them. "That they may succeed" suggests that the type of prayer in this verse has the function of asking for something good to happen to them - so essentially the verse means "if you believe in Allah and worship Him then he will listen to what you are asking for and you may get it". Overall it all seems quite impersonal and basically practical. But I would be interested in a different exegesis of the verse.

First and foremost, you cannot read an english translation of any verse and make your own exegesis of it. The Qur'an is in Arabic, and if you want to look deeper into the meanings of words, it makes no sense whatsoever to look at the translated english ones which often don't convey much of what is there.

On the topic of Allaah listening to prayers - does it not make sense that for Him to help us, we should first do as He commanded? Nevertheless, out of Allaah (swt)'s infinite mercy, He still feeds, clothes and shelters much of mankind who don't even believe in Him. Some even go as far as to hate Him and spread evil yet He still gives them so many things. Did they ever call on Him? No one is more patient than Allah when hearing abuse. They attribute a son to Him, while He grants them sustenance and health. Moreover, Allaah (swt) even answers the sincere supplication of disbelieving people when they call on Him at the time of disaster, such as drowning in the sea.

Peace.

 

[mattityahu]

Greetings,
It seems you have not understood the doctrine of Tawheed. Allaah (swt) is self-sufficient and not at all reliant on anyone or anything.

These issues are actually taking the thread off a tangent. Your answer can be found here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/12762-can-god-create-stone-heavier-than-him.html

First and foremost, you cannot read an english translation of any verse and make your own exegesis of it. The Qur'an is in Arabic, and if you want to look deeper into the meanings of words, it makes no sense whatsoever to look at the translated english ones which often don't convey much of what is there.

On the topic of Allaah listening to prayers - does it not make sense that for Him to help us, we should first do as He commanded? Nevertheless, out of Allaah (swt)'s infinite mercy, He still feeds, clothes and shelters much of mankind who don't even believe in Him. Some even go as far as to hate Him and spread evil yet He still gives them so many things. Did they ever call on Him? No one is more patient than Allah when hearing abuse. They attribute a son to Him, while He grants them sustenance and health. Moreover, Allaah (swt) even answers the sincere supplication of disbelieving people when they call on Him at the time of disaster, such as drowning in the sea.

Peace.

Thanks for this. I shouldn't have used 'exegesis' at all in my post - I stand corrected - I should have said "understanding" instead. Could you show me where my understanding of the text has gone wrong? Thanks.

As for the doctrine of Tawheed, I was attempting to go a bit deeper than just "Allah is self-sufficient" etc. Specifically, if one of His eternal attributes is 'loving' then how is He loving before creation? The only way I can understand love is when there is an object to love - perhaps you can help me with this.

Thanks again,
M

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings mattityahu,

Thank you for your patience.

Second, could you perhaps comment on your understanding of "closer than your jugular vein" and what that means?

I am not qualified to give my own understanding, but below is what I found in one of the famous exegesis books (Tafseer Ibn Katheer):

Allah encompasses and watches all of Man's Activity

Allah the Exalted affirms His absolute dominance over mankind, being their Creator and the Knower of everything about them. Allah the Exalted has complete knowledge of all thoughts that cross the mind of man, be they good or evil. In the Sahih, the Messenger of Allah said,

(Verily, Allah the Exalted has forgiven my Ummah (Muslims) for what they talk (think) to themselves about, as long as they do not utter or implement it.)

The statement of Allah the Exalted,

(And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.) means, His angels are nearer to man than his jugular vein. Those who explained `We' in the Ayah to mean `Our knowledge,' have done so to avoid falling into the idea of incarnation or indwelling; but these two creeds are false according to the consensus of Muslims. Allah is praised and glorified, He is far hallowed beyond what they ascribe to Him. The words of this Ayah do not need this explanation (that `We' refers to `Allah's knowledge'), for Allah did not say, `and I am closer to him than his jugular vein.' Rather, He said, (And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. ) just as He said in the case of dying persons,

(But We are nearer to him than you, but you see not.) (56:85), in reference to His angels (who take the souls). Allah the Exalted the Blessed said,

(Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it.) (15:9) Therefore, the angels brought down the revelation, the Qur'an, by the leave of Allah, the Exalted, the Most Honored. Thus, the angels are closer to man than his own jugular vein, by the power and leave of Allah.

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=50&tid=50110
​

Thanks for this. I shouldn't have used 'exegesis' at all in my post - I stand corrected - I should have said "understanding" instead. Could you show me where my understanding of the text has gone wrong? Thanks.

As I am not qualified to interpret the Qur'an myself, I cannot say much except that we are limited with regards to the depth of our understanding of the Qur'an when we cannot speak Arabic or have not studied the sciences behind exegesis. For more information, you can refer to this post.

As for the doctrine of Tawheed, I was attempting to go a bit deeper than just "Allah is self-sufficient" etc. Specifically, if one of His eternal attributes is 'loving' then how is He loving before creation? The only way I can understand love is when there is an object to love - perhaps you can help me with this.

The problem with going deeper into such issues is that it leads to people going astray. By delving into deep questions and asking questions after questions, some people have become so confused as to deny the reality of God Himself and accepted many strange notions that go against Islamic teachings, such as viewing Paradise and Hell as no more than parables for the masses to understand and having no reality beyond people’s minds! This is why it is more appropriate for a Muslim to accept the Names and Attributes that Allaah (swt) has taught us, without asking "how" or likening them to His creation. We can not fully comprehend Allaah (swt), therefore it is pointless to pursue deeper questions that will not further understanding, only create more confusion instead. The following thread may give you an idea of how strict the scholars are concerning the Attributes of Allaah (swt):

http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-shirk/37671-position-salaf-concerning-attributes-allaah.html

And Allaah the Most Exalted knows best.

Peace.

 

[mattityahu]

The problem with going deeper into such issues is that it leads to people going astray. By delving into deep questions and asking questions after questions, some people have become so confused as to deny the reality of God Himself and accepted many strange notions that go against Islamic teachings, such as viewing Paradise and Hell as no more than parables for the masses to understand and having no reality beyond people’s minds! This is why it is more appropriate for a Muslim to accept the Names and Attributes that Allaah (swt) has taught us, without asking "how" or likening them to His creation. We can not fully comprehend Allaah (swt), therefore it is pointless to pursue deeper questions that will not further understanding, only create more confusion instead. The following thread may give you an idea of how strict the scholars are concerning the Attributes of Allaah (swt):

http://www.islamicboard.com/tawheed-shirk/37671-position-salaf-concerning-attributes-allaah.html

And Allaah the Most Exalted knows best.

Peace.

Forgive me for being pithy, but I believe this is known as "indoctrination". Is this the view of most Islamic leaders?

Yours,
M

 

[جوري]

Is Matt and Hugo one in the same?
if indoctrination is the name of the game -- then a self-assessment is in order!

 

[mattityahu]

Is Matt and Hugo one in the same?
if indoctrination is the name of the game -- then a self-assessment is in order!

Sorry, what??

M

 

[Muezzin]

As for the doctrine of Tawheed, I was attempting to go a bit deeper than just "Allah is self-sufficient" etc. Specifically, if one of His eternal attributes is 'loving' then how is He loving before creation? The only way I can understand love is when there is an object to love - perhaps you can help me with this.

Thanks again,
M

Semantics.

If a tree in the forest falls with nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?

If you try to fail and suceed, which have you done?

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Forgive me for being pithy, but I believe this is known as "indoctrination". Is this the view of most Islamic leaders?

In other words, brainwashing. Well that's an expected comment from people who don't have faith. There are many things that we will simply not understand due to our limited capacity as created beings. Do you really expect us to comprehend the Creator of the heavens and the earth? The One who is the First and the Last? The One whom vision cannot grasp? The One who has knowledge of whatever there is in the land and in the sea - be it a leaf that falls or a grain in the darkness of the earth? Surely, it is illogical to keep questioning something that one is incapable of fully comprehending. We know that God is capable of doing all things, even if we can't understand how it actually occurs.

 

[GreyKode]

Honestly brother Muhammad's response is as honest and concise as it gets. May ALLAH(swt) bless him.
He's simply giving you the Islamic view will all honesty. And I believe what he said is 100% true, pondering on the nature of GOD is truly no more than a mental exercise in futility.However hard you try whatever you gain in the end will be an incomplete insufficient image of him be it, friend, master etc..

 

[mattityahu]

Greetings,

In other words, brainwashing. Well that's an expected comment from people who don't have faith. There are many things that we will simply not understand due to our limited capacity as created beings. Do you really expect us to comprehend the Creator of the heavens and the earth? The One who is the First and the Last? The One whom vision cannot grasp? The One who has knowledge of whatever there is in the land and in the sea - be it a leaf that falls or a grain in the darkness of the earth? Surely, it is illogical to keep questioning something that one is incapable of fully comprehending. We know that God is capable of doing all things, even if we can't understand how it actually occurs.

Well, (getting back to topic slightly!) if we can have a personal relationship with God then I don't see why not. Of course you would never understand him fully (since God is infinite) but I can't think of any questions I could ask of God which he couldn't answer. Is it illogical to always pursue the truth? Should I just give up trying to understand Islam since I'll never fully understand it?

Yours,
M