Is apostasy allowed in Islam?

[greenhill]

Where does it say it, again? Don't have to find hadeeth, but at least the Quran. I'm sure there is a context to it.

Peace

 

[Genesis]

Where does it say it, again? Don't have to find hadeeth, but at least the Quran. I'm sure there is a context to it.

Peace

Peace Greenhill.Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
Bukhari, volume 9, #58

My understanding is that there are also surahs in the Quran that Muslims often interpret to be able to kill apostates.

 

[Signor]

Assalamu Alaikum

I think Br Muhammad forgot his "Index of useful threads" which is now back once again,providing a lot on this topic to daveyats and others...

Apostasy
Islam and Apostasy
clarification of apostasy
Apostasy: an unqualified fatwa
[post] clarification of apostasy
[post] US pastor burns Koran in protest - Article by Jamal Zarabozo [Full article], [pdf]
US pastor burns Koran in protest - Fatwa from AMJA Online
Death Penalty for Apostasy in Islam
How do you treat an apostate?
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=5226
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=85488

 

[daveyats]

Assalamu Alaikum

I think Br Muhammad forgot his "Index of useful threads" which is now back once again,providing a lot on this topic to daveyats and others...

Apostasy
Islam and Apostasy
clarification of apostasy
Apostasy: an unqualified fatwa
[post] clarification of apostasy
[post] US pastor burns Koran in protest - Article by Jamal Zarabozo [Full article], [pdf]
US pastor burns Koran in protest - Fatwa from AMJA Online
Death Penalty for Apostasy in Islam
How do you treat an apostate?

I have read the 2nd and 3rd link (i think greenhill should too haha cos it will blow away what you said earlier). Before I go on, please forgive me for pushing the issue. If I can only choose one issue to talk about, it would be this..because of people like my friend and because of christians and christian converts who have been killed because of such teachings.

Islam and Apostasy

I want to point out a couple of problems with his argument:

1. Justifying the NEED for punishment of apostates does not address the theological issue of why the Koran is self-contradictory in this matter. You cannot say - "There are tigers in India" and "There are no tigers in India" and claim that both statements are true. A command from God cannot be contradictory for it to be true. Why would God contradict Himself???

2. He argues that people should know enough about Isiam and they should not be allowed to leave if they didn't understand it properly. May I ask - how much or how well a person should understand before you judge that he has known enough? I have been told you only need to know and acknowledge the 5 pillars of Islam to be a muslim.

And what happens after you consult the person, and find out that he indeeds understand Islam very well but rejects it simply because he doesn't think its true?

Let me assure whoever is reading this, that I understand where my muslim friends are arguing from: Islam is the true religion and if you understand it for what it is, you will be attracted and believe in it. I would like to point out that the individual needs to make a judgement and personal decision to decide whether Islam is true or not before accepting it. Would you agree with me on this?

This is the crux of the issue: what if a person at some point, learns something new about Islam or some new religion and makes a judgement and decides that Islam is not true, but false?

3. There is also the issue of children who have been born into a muslim family. They are considered to be born muslim. So this presents another theological problem - the children have been stripped off their free will and have been compelled by Allah to be believers when he assigned them to be born in a muslim home.

What if a child after growing up, learns new things (example: science, Christianity etc) and makes his/her own personal decision not to be a muslim? Should he be punished because he never made his own choice to be a muslim?

I'm glad a muslim brother already asked the same thing here: clarification of apostasy

4. The last thing is - why are muslims so INSECURE about their own beliefs? If you believe Islam to be true and people disbelieve to their own eternal detriment....what difference does it make if people leave the faith? Do apostates make the message of Islam less true? If you are concerned that apostates may end up speaking up and defaming Islam...may I then ask why is no Islamic country or organization punishing ISIS for defaming Islam? Or are you now going to say that all that ISIS is approved by Allah?

 

[InToTheRain]

I don't see the contradiction. There is no complusion in Religion - this is regarding to our relation with Allah Most High as Allah Most High has no need for someone to practice Islam against their will. If the whole world were to renounce Allah Most High then it would not diminish His granduer nor does our accepting Him add to it. However this is regarding ones relation with Allah Most High.

The law regarding apostacy was made to preserve an "ISLAMIC NATIONS" ideals; such as the law for adultery and murder. In Islam there should be no seperation between religion and state; Islam forms our basis for everything. So to leave Islam openly was tantamount to treachery and to leave it alone was tantamount to encouraging murder and adultery. There is judicial process in place for all this.

For example during the time of the Khalif Umar Al Khattab(RA) there were 4 witnesses to an adultery (as 4 witnesses are required); 3 mentioned they saw the actual act of penetration however 1 of them said they didn't see the actual act of penetration rather the duvet covers moving! So he lashed the 3 witnesses for accusation without firm proof because false accusation was also a henious crime which could not be encouraged.

However there is no "Islamic state" and whether a nation decides to implement it to preserve its ideals is their prerogative; just like the UK has it's own laws:
8 Of The Weirdest British Treason Laws

Ofcourse if one feels they can't abide by the laws of the nation then they should move elsewhere where such laws cannot affect them.

Also experts in Shariah Law are called Mufti's (it's equivelant to a Masters in Islamic Studies) and unfortunately no one here, to my knowledge, is one as such we can't go into intricate details of the fatwa for apostasy.

 

[daveyats]

I don't see the contradiction. There is no complusion in Religion - this is regarding to our relation with Allah Most High as Allah Most High has no need for someone to practice Islam against their will. If the whole world were to renounce Allah Most High then it would not diminish His granduer nor does our accepting Him add to it. However this is regarding ones relation with Allah Most High.

The law regarding apostacy was made to preserve an "ISLAMIC NATIONS" ideals; such as the law for adultery and murder. In Islam there should be no seperation between religion and state; Islam forms our basis for everything. So to leave Islam openly was tantamount to treachery and to leave it alone was tantamount to encouraging murder and adultery. There is judicial process in place for all this.

For example during the time of the Khalif Umar Al Khattab(RA) there were 4 witnesses to an adultery (as 4 witnesses are required); 3 mentioned they saw the actual act of penetration however 1 of them said they didn't see the actual act of penetration rather the duvet covers moving! So he lashed the 3 witnesses for accusation without firm proof because false accusation was also a henious crime which could not be encouraged.

However there is no "Islamic state" and whether a nation decides to implement it to preserve its ideals is their prerogative; just like the UK has it's own laws:
8 Of The Weirdest British Treason Laws

Ofcourse if one feels they can't abide by the laws of the nation then they should move elsewhere where such laws cannot affect them.

Also experts in Shariah Law are called Mufti's (it's equivelant to a Masters in Islamic Studies) and unfortunately no one here, to my knowledge, is one as such we can't go into intricate details of the fatwa for apostasy.

Let me understand you correctly, you just said:

1. Allah sees no need for a person to believe and behave according to the Koran against that person's will.
2. Allah sees a need for an Islamic state, where people belonging to the state are expected to believe and behave according to the Koran even against their own will.

 

[Hulk]

In regards to the original poster's argument, the issue is not about what the punishment for apostasy is. Rather, it is that there is a punishment at all. So even if for example the punishment for apostasy is a "slap on the wrist" it still does not change the argument by the original poster as his argument is that "If there is no compulsion in religion, then why is there a penalty for leaving Islam."

So in this regard, there is no need to mention that while there is the opinion that majority of Scholars hold, there are differences of opinions on the matter as well. Neither is there a need to mention that throughout history in Islam there are instances where the leaders did not put apostates to death, since that is not the issue.

So Daveyati's argument is "Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion, but Hadith states that there is a punishment for people who leave Islam. That means that there is a contradiction in Islam."

If you want to say that this is a contradiction, then what about Christianity? I can say something similar as well.

"Christianity says that people are free to believe that they want to believe, but Christianity also says that people who are not Christian will go to Hell. That means that there is a contradiction in Christianity."

Whether the punishment is in this life or the afterlife does not take away from the validity of the argument.

However, I obviously do not agree with the argument. I am only presenting to you your line of reasoning. People are free to believe whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that they are not accountable for their beliefs. Inwardly, no one truly knows what people believe. But outwardly, we cannot deny that our actions have consequences. We can tell someone that it is up to them to eat whatever they want, but it doesn't mean that they will not have to deal with the consequences of what they eat.

In regards to the hadith, notice that there is an additional condition other than apostasy and that is "leaving the muslims". From my understanding, some understand this to refer to treason. But whatever it is, we know that it is a condition which is in accompaniment with apostasy that is punishable.

 

[Muhammad]

greetings! the problem is not a logical, historical or philosophical one. it is a theological one. How can you implement punishment for apostasy and not contradict or violate Quran 2:256?

The matter is quite simple. It is not a contradiction but a failure (or reluctance) to understand. I came across the following explanation which might be worth mentioning here:

...in light of the context of the guidance of the Quran and the Sunnah this Command of the Lord Most High ‘Let there be no compulsion in religion’ means and implies that since Allah has given every individual a ‘free will’ as a test; for a period of one lifetime every individual has a God-given right to choose for himself between the paths of Truth and error, Guidance and misguidance, Belief and disbelief, Obedience or disobedience. Every individual has a right to choose whatever path he wishes to live his life, and none should or can be forced or coerced or compelled to choose belief if one chooses to disbelieve. Thus it is absolutely impermissible in Islamic Law to force, or coerce, or compel anyone to accept Islam as their way of life if they do not themselves, of their own free will, choose to do so.

But if one, of his own free will chooses to believe and enters Islam by declaring the ‘shahaadah’ or testification of faith, then he is bound by his declaration and all the disciplines of Islam become obligatory upon such a person. If one after accepting Islam as his deen does not pray, he will be compelled by Law to offer his prayers; or if he refuses to pay the zakah dues, he will be compelled by Law to fulfill his zakah dues; or if he refuses to distribute inheritance as prescribed by Shariah, he will be compelled by Law to do so; etc. Once the person of his own free will accepts Islam, he has no right to pick-and-choose the laws he wishes to follow; but rather he will be compelled to follow all the obligatory dictates of Shariah by Law. Here one cannot say or bring forth the excuse ‘Let there be no compulsion in religion’! nor would it be accepted. This command only applies to one who has not accepted Islam as his way of life.

Allow us to relate a simple example to further explain the point. In today’s age, one is not compelled to take citizenship of any nation (for eg. United States of America); but if one of his own free will chooses to take on and accept US citizenship, he cannot pick-and-choose which law he wishes to follow. If the law of the land states that he has to pay tax, he will be compelled to pay it whether he likes it or not; of if the law of the land states he has to be drafted in the army, he will be compelled to join the army; or if the law of the land states he has to pay half his wealth to his divorced wife, he will be compelled to do so; etc...
​

I read the articles. There are some inaccuracies in the first article. Especially Pauls quote in Romans. It also seems to say that because the Torah allowed similar behaviors for the ancient Israelites and because the West in Medieval times was similar then that excuses Muslims killing an apostate. The problem with this however is that Israel has moved on from that time and as far as the West is concerned it has also moved forward

I think more accurately the article is pointing out the perplexing behaviour of Jews and Christians when they raise issue with Muslims for following laws that they themselves have in their books but chosen to neglect.

and you will not find anything in the New Testament / Injil that would support executions for apostasy anyway.

Muslims do not consider the New Testament as the Injil. As for your claim, the following seems quite clear:

Deuteronomy 13:6-11:

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Deutronomy 13: 12-18:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in [SUP]13 [/SUP]that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), [SUP]14 [/SUP]then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, [SUP]15[/SUP]you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[SUP][/SUP] both its people and its livestock. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and none of the condemned things[SUP][c][/SUP] are to be found in your hands.

Deutronomy 17:1-7:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, [SUP]3 [/SUP]and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, [SUP]5 [/SUP]take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13:

12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; 13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.



It's strange you endorse a book containing the above and much more, yet come here seeming so concerned about 'murder'.

 

[daveyats]

In regards to the original poster's argument, the issue is not about what the punishment for apostasy is. Rather, it is that there is a punishment at all. So even if for example the punishment for apostasy is a "slap on the wrist" it still does not change the argument by the original poster as his argument is that "If there is no compulsion in religion, then why is there a penalty for leaving Islam."

So in this regard, there is no need to mention that while there is the opinion that majority of Scholars hold, there are differences of opinions on the matter as well. Neither is there a need to mention that throughout history in Islam there are instances where the leaders did not put apostates to death, since that is not the issue.

So Daveyati's argument is "Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion, but Hadith states that there is a punishment for people who leave Islam. That means that there is a contradiction in Islam."

If you want to say that this is a contradiction, then what about Christianity? I can say something similar as well.

"Christianity says that people are free to believe that they want to believe, but Christianity also says that people who are not Christian will go to Hell. That means that there is a contradiction in Christianity."

Whether the punishment is in this life or the afterlife does not take away from the validity of the argument.

However, I obviously do not agree with the argument. I am only presenting to you your line of reasoning. People are free to believe whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that they are not accountable for their beliefs. Inwardly, no one truly knows what people believe. But outwardly, we cannot deny that our actions have consequences. We can tell someone that it is up to them to eat whatever they want, but it doesn't mean that they will not have to deal with the consequences of what they eat.

In regards to the hadith, notice that there is an additional condition other than apostasy and that is "leaving the muslims". From my understanding, some understand this to refer to treason. But whatever it is, we know that it is a condition which is in accompaniment with apostasy that is punishable.

Hulk, I greatly appreciate the fact that you follow my reasoning closely and your statements make the most sense to me. I do recognize that Islam allows for a diversity of views but certainly in no way will any rationale person accept any truth about God (or any other matter) to be self-contradictory.

You are only slightly mistaken about the Christian belief. God commands and expects man to believe in Jesus Christ but he does not command His people to compel anyone to believe. We are only commanded to persuade men. Only God is qualified to met out judgement and the consequences to unbelievers.

In Islam, Allah does not compel anyone to believe but commands his followers to compel others to believe. That is the contradiction which I must emphasize again.

 

[daveyats]

Muhamad, if you fail to see the contradiction in this I can't say anything more than all I've said in this thread.

"Every individual has a right to choose whatever path he wishes to live his life, and none should or can be forced or coerced or compelled to choose belief if one chooses to disbelieve"..." This command only applies to one who has not accepted Islam as his way of life. "

please also read my earlier posts about the problems with the statements above...

 

[daveyats]

Deuteronomy 13:6-11:

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Deutronomy 13: 12-18:

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands.

Deutronomy 17:1-7:

2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13:

12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; 13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

I just wish to say that I can reply you on this, but I don't wish to. I respect that this is an Islamic forum. If you have christian friends, you can approach them to clarify about this.

 

[M.I.A.]

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong." Surat Al-Baqarah 2:256

I have a friend who left Islam and was severely punished by his family and later disowned. Which is understandable, because which father will not want his son to take on his faith and values. but in some places that practice sharia law, an apostate can be punished even by death.

How can the Islamic faith claim to be "without compulsion" if muslims are not given the freedom to choose what religion they want to belong to?

i feel its almost self explanatory in the simplest terms, when you get to the point where right and wrong become clear.. then you cant go back.

if you feel religion is compulsion then you have not yet realised what life is. what acceptance is.


but i would use your own example to voice my own disagreement,

if the world and its practice of islam is perfect, then why is the ummah not near what we would expect from it?


i would guess its complicated, each to his own path.

live and learn really.

 

[ardianto]

In Islam, Allah does not compel anyone to believe but commands his followers to compel others to believe. That is the contradiction which I must emphasize again.

Some people in my mother family are Christians. Some of my friends are non-Muslims too, mainly Christian. And no one compel them to convert to Islam although they live in Muslim majority country.

There is no command to compel other people to convert to Islam. But unfortunately, there are Muslims who make their own initiative to compel other people accept Islam, although there is no command for it.

 

[Hulk]

Hulk, I greatly appreciate the fact that you follow my reasoning closely and your statements make the most sense to me. I do recognize that Islam allows for a diversity of views but certainly in no way will any rationale person accept any truth about God (or any other matter) to be self-contradictory.

You are only slightly mistaken about the Christian belief. God commands and expects man to believe in Jesus Christ but he does not command His people to compel anyone to believe. We are only commanded to persuade men. Only God is qualified to met out judgement and the consequences to unbelievers.

In Islam, Allah does not compel anyone to believe but commands his followers to compel others to believe. That is the contradiction which I must emphasize again.

Was I mistaken in the example that I gave? I'm pretty sure christians for the most part would agree with what I said

"Christianity says that people are free to believe that they want to believe, but Christianity also says that people who are not Christian will go to Hell."

this is similar to your argument "Islam says that there is no compulsion in religion, but Islam also says that there is a punishment for those who leave islam."

As I said, "no compulsion in belief" does not equal "no consequences of belief". You can't deny that the argument you presented can be used against christianity as well. A person who leaves christianity will still be punished correct? Just that you would say that it happens in the afterlife, which is only an issue of "when" he will be punished.

If you want to say that there is a difference in "who carries out the punishment" then that's fine as well but it is still the same argument that you are dealing with, the only difference is "when" and "who". The same goes with your claim "Allah commands muslims to compel others to believe", regardless of how true the statement is, it's still a matter of "who is doing the compelling".

Christianity is still faced with the same argument, and thus "contradiction".

You'd have to acknowledge that the argument you presented is invalid, as "no compulsion in belief" does not equal "no consequences of belief".
-----------------------
In regards to "Allah commands muslims to compel others to believe", the burden of proof is on you to prove that. Keep in mind my previous post regarding the hadith of "apostasy with treason". But it would be going off topic already since the original argument has already been shown to be invalid.

 

[daveyats]

Was I mistaken in the example that I gave? I'm pretty sure christians for the most part would agree with what I said

"Christianity says that people are free to believe that they want to believe, but Christianity also says that people who are not Christian will go to Hell."

this is similar to your argument "Islam says that there is no compulsion in religion, but Islam also says that there is a punishment for those who leave islam."

As I said, "no compulsion in belief" does not equal "no consequences of belief". You can't deny that the argument you presented can be used against christianity as well. A person who leaves christianity will still be punished correct? Just that you would say that it happens in the afterlife, which is only an issue of "when" he will be punished.

If you want to say that there is a difference in "who carries out the punishment" then that's fine as well but it is still the same argument that you are dealing with, the only difference is "when" and "who". The same goes with your claim "Allah commands muslims to compel others to believe", regardless of how true the statement is, it's still a matter of "who is doing the compelling".

Christianity is still faced with the same argument, and thus "contradiction".

You'd have to acknowledge that the argument you presented is invalid, as "no compulsion in belief" does not equal "no consequences of belief".
-----------------------
In regards to "Allah commands muslims to compel others to believe", the burden of proof is on you to prove that. Keep in mind my previous post regarding the hadith of "apostasy with treason". But it would be going off topic already since the original argument has already been shown to be invalid.

I wish to assure you I understand where you're coming from. It makes a whole lot of sense. God in giving men free will, does not remove the consequence of their choice. I agree with this.

I picture both narratives this way:

Jesus Christ tells men - You have absolute free will to choose. You can choose to follow me or take any other path but I must warn you that any other path leads to a place called Hell. Anyone is free at any point of time to choose any path for the duration of his earthly life but your choice is final when you die. This is the Christian narrative.

Allah tells men - You have absolute free will to choose, I and no one can compel you by force or coercion to accept Me. You can choose between following me or taking any other path but I must warn you that if you choose the other path, it leads to a place called Hell. If you choose to follow me, your acceptance is final. You will not be allowed the freedom to choose the other path. Doing so will meet with your punishment and death. This is the Islamic narrative.

Before I go on to elaborate, am I right or wrong in picturing Islam this way? This is the picture I get from the replies here, because I think the difference and contradiction is what I see in the narrative.

 

[Genesis]

[QUOTE
I think more accurately the article is pointing out the perplexing behaviour of Jews and Christians when they raise issue with Muslims for following laws that they themselves have in their books but chosen to neglect.

Muslims do not consider the New Testament as the Injil. As for your claim, the following seems quite clear:

Deuteronomy 13:6-11:

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Deutronomy 13: 12-18:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in [SUP]13 [/SUP]that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), [SUP]14 [/SUP]then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, [SUP]15[/SUP]you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[SUP][/SUP] both its people and its livestock. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and none of the condemned things[SUP][c][/SUP] are to be found in your hands.

Deutronomy 17:1-7:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, [SUP]3 [/SUP]and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, [SUP]5 [/SUP]take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13:

12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; 13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
It's strange you endorse a book containing the above and much more, yet come here seeming so concerned about 'murder'.[/QUOTE]
Hello Mohammad
The authors argument is floored due to their misunderstanding of Romans. So that is worth neglecting straight away. The Old Testament scriptures are also worth neglecting because they are old covenant - not new covenant. That is ancient Jewish behaviour, not New Covenant religion that Jesus introduced.
Also in regards to the Injil what Injil did Mohamad have that was different to the New Testament we have today. The New Testament canon was established over the 600 years before Mohamad. So of course the Injil he had access to was the same as todays.
Of course

 

[Ummshareef]

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong." Surat Al-Baqarah 2:256

How can the Islamic faith claim to be "without compulsion" if muslims are not given the freedom to choose what religion they want to belong to?

Nobody should be forced to choose Islam but if you are born into Islam or have made the choice by saying the Shahada then it must be followed for life. That means submitting to the will of Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa by believing in Him, worshiping Him and accepting His laws. The obligations that this comes with are not something you can turn away from when you feel like it - we are commanded to follow Islam in full for life. Our religion incorporates a full legal system - abandoning Islam is seen as amongst the most serious sins for which exemplary punishment is due.

 

[aamirsaab]

There is no theological contradiction.

The Qur'an gives is us the rule (no compulsion in religion) AND the exception to this rule (apostates who then fight against/betray/cause havoc in the land of Muslims).

When the apostasy ruling was revealed, it was during a turbulent time between Muslim and Non-Muslim; some Non-Muslim would pretend to convert and learn vital information about Muslim armies etc. They would then apostatize and give this information to their commanders. Thus in order to prevent a massacre of Muslims, the ruling was sent allowing for the killing of apostates in those particular circumstances.

Again, this is not a contradiction it is merely providing us the rule and the exception to it.

 

[InToTheRain]

Let me understand you correctly, you just said:

1. Allah sees no need for a person to believe and behave according to the Koran against that person's will.

Yes

2. Allah sees a need for an Islamic state, where people belonging to the state are expected to believe and behave according to the Koran even against their own will.

Yes and No... They are expected to behave in accordance to the laws made by the nation to preserve it's values. They don't have to believe it; as mentioned every nation has their own pregortive to make laws in their own interest. It's like saying people in UK are expected to behave in an orderely manner against their own will; **** right they are. Just like in the UK, there are rules/regulations for normal citizens however for others such as M15 agents or workers there are far more stringent sets of laws; all to do with guarding their own insterests.

In fact a brother above gave this example which fits:
Allow us to relate a simple example to further explain the point. In today’s age, one is not compelled to take citizenship of any nation (for eg. United States of America); but if one of his own free will chooses to take on and accept US citizenship, he cannot pick-and-choose which law he wishes to follow. If the law of the land states that he has to pay tax, he will be compelled to pay it whether he likes it or not; of if the law of the land states he has to be drafted in the army, he will be compelled to join the army; or if the law of the land states he has to pay half his wealth to his divorced wife, he will be compelled to do so; etc...

1) has to do with Belief (internal state)
2) has to do with guarding our own interests (controlling the external behaviour of masses). This does not form part of belief meaning I do not have to execute an apostate in the UK to remain a Muslim should someone apostate infront of me rather it's the states responsibility should it wish to do so.


Your argument is no different to saying "There is a contradiction in Islam because Allah (Most High) says you should love other Muslims so why do you kill them (once they murder/adultery etc)?". One is to do with belief (internal state) the other to keep law and order (national interest). Your just taking it completely out of context.

 

[daveyats]

The problem is: "There is no compulsion in religion"

This sentence alone does not allow for exceptions because implies that there is, and should be no compulsion at any time, with regards to a person's choice of faith or beliefs. It can also read as a declaration that Islam is free of any compulsion.

If Allah only meant that no one should be compelled to enter Islam, the verse should read something like "there is no compulsion in entering religion". a reading like this would allow for an exception - leaving the religion.

I also pointed out other problems like with regards to children, whether they had any real choice in the matter...and does the idea of being "born a muslim" violates the idea that Allah does not compel anyone to believe.

I feel like I'm flogging a dead horse now, so I'm going to leave the discussion as it is. As I stated earlier...i'm just voicing my opinion.

thanks for the replies. Peace