Is apostasy allowed in Islam?

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It is accurate to say that the Muslim is not free to leave because he will be punished and compelled to remain a Muslim. That is the purpose of the punishment - to prevent apostasy.

If you wish to insist that no men have free will because God/Allah punishes unbelievers, you only further the contradiction not resolve it.
Punishment for crimes does not contradict the concept of free will, whether that punishment is in the worldly life or afterlife. As you said, it is a case of facing the consequence of one's actions. Yes, punishments do act as deterrents, but that is totally different to the concept of free will.

Genesis said:
Exemplary punishment being death. Why is Islam so insecure. If indeed it is the ultimate and highest of religion then it should stand on its own without having to force compliance with the threat of death.
How can something so superior be so insecure with it self.
It is not Islam that is insecure, it is the hearts of humans. Islam is so complete that its laws take into consideration society as a whole and how the transgression of humans may impact that society.

If you have a problem with punishment by death, then once again you need to consider your Bible. You may say that those teachings are not applicable in your religion anymore, however, that does not negate the fact that Christians believe these punishments to be divinely ordained and considered the law for centuries. Why then the hypocrisy of criticising Islamic laws?
 
My friend was sent to Indonesia for "reformation" before but that was more then 10 years ago. That place was probably run by extremists. But again, don't just hear it from me. My info may be wrong, outdated inaccurate etc the best way is to find out for yourself or simply treat my words as rubbish. It's no loss or gain for me whether you believe me or not.
 
My friend was sent to Indonesia for "reformation" before but that was more then 10 years ago. That place was probably run by extremists. But again, don't just hear it from me. My info may be wrong, outdated inaccurate etc the best way is to find out for yourself or simply treat my words as rubbish. It's no loss or gain for me whether you believe me or not.
Since we're using personal experiences. One of my family friends is an ex-muslim (in indonesia) woman who married a christian and now have kids who are in early to mid 20s. That's more than 20 years of being "ex muslim" with nothing ever happening to her, not even cutting of family ties.
 
Punishment for crimes does not contradict the concept of free will, whether that punishment is in the worldly life or afterlife. As you said, it is a case of facing the consequence of one's actions. Yes, punishments do act as deterrents, but that is totally different to the concept of free will.

It is not Islam that is insecure, it is the hearts of humans. Islam is so complete that its laws take into consideration society as a whole and how the transgression of humans may impact that society.

If you have a problem with punishment by death, then once again you need to consider your Bible. You may say that those teachings are not applicable in your religion anymore, however, that does not negate the fact that Christians believe these punishments to be divinely ordained and considered the law for centuries. Why then the hypocrisy of criticising Islamic laws?
Yes the hearts of humans are fickle. But your religious system is what is being held to account for the insecurity- not the hearts of humans.
Yes the Old Testament scriptures were ordained by God but they were not his perfect will. His perfect will has been revealed through the New Covenant heralded by John the Baptist and brought into effect by Jesus
 


Burning in Hell is less barbaric?


Hello Mohamad.
The Qaran stressors the horrors of hell far more than the Bible. And yes it is less barbaric because it is about the just and merciful justice of God. Compare this to some shonky court in Sudan or Iran
 
Greetings Genesis,

Yes the hearts of humans are fickle. But your religious system is what is being held to account for the insecurity- not the hearts of humans.
Forgive me if I don't consider what you personally hold to account to be of any value.

Yes the Old Testament scriptures were ordained by God but they were not his perfect will.
So you believe God can be imperfect? What kind of a God is this?

The Quran stressors the horrors of hell far more than the Bible.
Even if true, so what? The Bible contains a great many disturbing passages involving lewd behaviour, attributes shocking crimes to Prophets, whereas the Qur'an does not.

And yes it is less barbaric because it is about the just and merciful justice of God.
The exact same thing can be said about Islam.
 
If I leave my country to take nationality in another I do not get punished by death.
If this was the way it was in Medieval Arabia due to Muslims being at war with tribes around them fair enough. However all that tells me is that Islam is not an absolute and timeless religion for all people at all times. Not relevant to today.

I like your veracity, it's cute :)

hmm *snaps fingers* hey, look around you - what do you see? 1 fifth the worlds population is Muslim in case you haven't noticed, and more people from the west - women over men on a ration of 4/1, are reverting to Islam more than any other religion in the world - try telling me again, how Islam is irrelevant please?

Despite the media spin, lies, and waffle to push public opinion into mindless regurgitations of its own broadcasts, people are waking up. And the world is higher in numbers of Muslims today than it ever has been. How is this possible? Please, I'd like to hear your explanation of this :D i'm up for a laugh.

Scimi
 
It is not Islam that is insecure, it is the hearts of humans. Islam is so complete that its laws take into consideration society as a whole and how the transgression of humans may impact that society.

Would you provide a few sources in the Quran or Hadith showing that a person who converts out
of Islam should be punished or killed?

Thanks,
Jim
 
But Greenhill. Murder is murder. It is the Quran and Hadith that say to kill the apostate.

Apostasy in an Islamic Nation will sometimes entail treason. Under the 4 Madhabs of Sharia, simple apostasy is not punishable. What is punishable is if the apostasy results in other crimes.

No one has every been executed for apostasy in an actual Sharia court that abides by one of the Madhabs. However, people were executed for acts of treason and often they were also apostates. But the fact they were apostates was not the reason they were executed.
 
When people join the US army, are they not in trouble for not fighting? Are people not sent to jail, so basically your telling them to go and potentially die that is more acceptable then you denying fighting for your country.

On another note, your referring to people who worshipped, believed in God. After having faith, and rejecting the message, what more do you think God would give the individual?? Even Allah has stated after the food came down at the time of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, that if anyone leaves believe, will be punished like he has never punished anyone before.

OF course we don't expect Christians to understand who left the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him because they were too afraid of the authorities, rather then adhering to FAITH.
 
The issue is that people don't think and remember that this world is a test. There are many individuals that after faith, God wasn't going to give them anything else on the straight path-because there are limits. For example;-


-Satan-God doesn't have to give him anything to help him to be good, as he already understand, acknowledges the one God, he only has reprieve till the Day of Judgement, which is not beneficial to him as he has witnessed and rejected all the Prophets. Now the Muslims are no different to accepting the truth as if you were in heaven, so if you leave Islam and you did not die, those people will NEVER be treated the same as an non-Muslim. As that non-Muslim never reached, believed as that Muslim ever did, so God would help the non-Muslims to Islam, rather then a person who rejects, rejects Islam after belief.


- After the table spreadth at the time of the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, Allah said of those that were present, that if anyone rejects him after this will be punished as he has never punished anyone before.


- People learnt black magic from Harut and Marut who were two angels. Note that the angels were just openly warning and told people not to do black magic (where people use devils to inflict suffering, as devils not only follow and talk to people, they also of course touch people’s bodies). It is no different in a good, innocent person telling you not to go into that room as it contains a knife, or someone telling you were they keep their money and telling people not to steal.


Now the people at the time of Harut and Marut, knew that they were angels, this is how evil these people were. Normally if you saw an angel you probably ask questions about the next world, what is Paradise like, or what do I need to do in life to be successful for the next. But these people were more interested in harming other humans-this is where they are non-Muslims and they are in Hell fire. AS there is nothing that Allah needs to give these people to get them to accept the truth in the one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell.


-Which also brings the issue of devils they live in a parallel world, they know that heaven exists, they used to eavesdrop on heaven which is why people were able to tell future events. There is nothing that God needs to give the devils more to help them to repent. They outwardly become repulsive as well as the inside. Note here it is no issue that they are still alive, as God has said that they are feeble.


- After the Prophet Salih peace be upon him with his camel, God wasn’t going to give to the people any other sign.


Now if a Muslim living in the USA lets say, leaves Islam, he/she may wish to live as non-Muslims do, and to them they may think that they are living the same, but they are NOT. As God himself is treating both parties differently the former Muslim and people who never became Muslim. In that Allah is providing guidance and showing people the straight path.


-Prophet Noah peace be upon him had a son, he could not have asked for a better father, he was one of those who were sinful and were drowned. It is an honour to have righteous parents, and what excuse is there for the children to say that they do not wish to follow Islam that they were brought up into? No difference in living in Paradise and you couldn’t get away with rejecting God as there isn’t anything more.


-Prophet Jonah peace be upon him refusal to help other people, after all the knowledge that God gave him was not accepted, thus he was swallowed by the whale and went on his way. Of course he wasn’t turning away from belief, but was carrying out Allah’s wishes.


Now in the west you hear many examples ie;-


1. Soldiers being taken to court for refusing to fight.
2. People like Snowden being forced to flee, by not complying with a man-made law-so is it OK for people to be affected by a Man made law, but not the law of God??


Muslims as God as stated are the best people ever raised, we forbid evil and enjoin what is good, we are not going to reject, and pick and choose so as to appear as others wish us to appear.


When have you actually Prophets being specifically sent to people who rejected belief after accepting? No, they are sent to help guide people.


We are not here to go on a killing spree, killing people who refuse to repent, never did Allah say to us to kill those who refuse to repent and accept Islam (this is where Allah destroys the evil doers for not repenting such as he has done at the time of the Prophet Noah peace be upon him) -but these people are not and NEVER will be in the same position as those who received the food from heaven, been a Muslim. God, the angels treat the former Muslim forever differently then they would ever do to someone who has never become a Muslim before. This is why leaving Islam again and again is bad, as it causes the individual to stay in unbelief, as they wrong themselves, Allah wrongs them not. There’s only so much that Allah is going to show, if Allah was going to stop them from leaving Islam every time, then when they died how have they earned their place in Heaven??

As stated Allah destroys the evil doers for rejecting him, no Prophets have ever said it was our job to do. Allah has stated it is for Muslims to carry out sentences against Murderers depending on negotiations with family members, punish for adultery. So Allah is not going to send an earthquake for every Murderer.


It is an issue of the west where they think they are doing better then others. Here’s an example, you may get tribes around the world with odd practises, now to the west they would say that they are living better and that they are the poor improvised people. But in the west if they decide to get tattoos and normalise it, because they like to emphamise that it was their choice and nobody told them then they are free, even though they are follwing their own desires. So they are critical of Muslims for following the commandments of Allah, but think they are better for following their own wants.


All the Prophets came with one message to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell.


The jews were left wandering around the desert as they were not supportive of the Prophet Moses peace be upon him. Now Jews reject the existence of Hell saying that the pervious jews got it wrong about it-when the jews have NOT received a revelation from God to say this. That also say that Satan is not evil but God’s servant to test mankind, even though they say the serpent was bad during Prophet Adam peace be upon him’s time in Paradise.


The Christians did not support Prophet Jesus peace be upon him-when you say this to them, some say that they were jews at the time, in somehow trying to make that acceptable,


We follow the word of God, his commandments, we are not here to follow the desires of others. Yes you can choose what colour clothes you wear, what job you want, but not against the belief of the one God. You can't say people leaving Islam is a light thing, and not much of a sin, when it is an awful one at that.


I hope that people do a good search for topic answers, instead of just coming online, thinking that a statement is somehow going to say that Islam is all wrong, when it follows after the teachings of all the Prophets. It is always best to spend time away from forums and pray to God Almighty who has not taken himself a son, and neither is he one of three.


Surah Ikhlas


In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him.


72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.


73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
 
Greetings Jim,

Would you provide a few sources in the Quran or Hadith showing that a person who converts out
of Islam should be punished or killed?
From the quote earlier in the thread, there are two Hadith mentioned:


Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said,

لا يَحِلُّ دَمُ امْرِئٍ مُسْلِمٍ إِلاَّ بِإِحْدَى ثَلاَثٍ الثَّيِّبُ الزَّانِي وَالنَّفْسُ بِالنَّفْسِ والتَارِكُ لِدِيْنِهِ المُفَارِقُ لِلْجَمَاعَةِ

“It is not legal [to spill] the blood of a Muslim except in one of three cases: the fornicator who has previously experienced legal sexual intercourse (i.e. with one’s husband, wife, etc.), a life for a life and one who forsakes his religion and separates from the community.” (Recorded by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is also reported to have said,

مَنْ بَدَّلَ دِينَهُ فَاقْتُلُوهُ

“Whoever changes his religion is to be killed.”[2] (Recorded by al-Bukhari and others.)

These texts from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have led the vast majority of Muslim scholars to conclude that the punishment for apostasy from Islam in Islamic Law is death.

This link also quotes some statements from the scholars: Punishment for apostasy - Islam web - English

'In the establishment of this ruling, there is protection for the sanctity of religions not to be toyed with, lest those who are manipulative and desire-driven do not obtain the means to advance their personally-motivated ambitions and objectives. Furthermore, in that which Allah has ordained, He has the perfect proof and argument, as well as the Ultimate Wisdom. We ask Allah to grant guidance to all.'
 
just want to say I'm leaving this discussion. I don't mean to be rude or anything. I came in with a simple question - how can Islam claim to have no compulsion and yet compel its followers to stay - and I think its made abundantly clear that Quran 2:256 is interpreted as no compulsion only to non-muslims. For the most part, every person has been civil and respectful in their replies though this question is admittedly sensitive and provocative. Appreciate that. cheers Dave
 
Ah Dave, sorry to see you leave without feeling you understand the nuance here.

1) there is no compulsion in Islam to come to faith unless one has reached faith - and then, that person cannot deny it because it would make he or she miserable.

2) there is no compulsion for Muslims to push their faith on other peoples in the manner Constantine did (by the sword) and so, Muslims have largely in history spread Islam through peaceful means:

Syrian archaeological dig reveals myth of Islam spreading by the sword

by Mike Addelman
Source: The University of Manchester

SyriaKhanuqaGap600x402-1.jpg


An archaeologist working in Syria has solved the mystery of why one of Islam’s earliest fortresses dropped out of the historical record around 1,100 years ago.

Senior Lecturer Dr Emma Loosley from The University of Manchester was one of an international team of experts invited into the world-renowned Khanuqa Gap by the Syrian Department of Antiquities before its secrets – and 11,000 years of human history – may be lost to a controversial dam project.

Dr Loosley, who has been unable to return to Syria because of the current conflict, found that 1,100 years ago a fire raged through what was regarded as an impregnable fortress.

Her work has also helped show that, contrary to popular understanding, the earliest Muslim expansion across the Middle East was largely peaceful and typified by coexistence with Christians.

Like Jerusalem’s Dome of the Rock, the citadel – called Zalabiyeh – was one of the first buildings to be inhabited by Muslims as they spread across the Syrian desert.

It was constructed during the Byzantine Empire before being renovated under the Umayyad Dynasty during Islam’s first period of expansion from Mecca in the early seventh century.

The first of four Arab caliphates following the death of Muhammed, the Umayyad dynasty left Mecca to establish one of the largest empires the world had yet seen.

Zalabiyeh, its sister citadel Halabiyeh and dozens of other crucially important sites may be flooded as part of a major HEP project.

Dr Loosley’s undergraduate student Joshua Bryant, who worked with her, was able to date the citadel to c.500 AD by analysing the way its walls were constructed.

He received a University award for his dissertation which he hopes to publish in a journal – a rare feat for an undergraduate.

Dr Loosley excavated burned beams and roof tiles – alongside other finds -including a fully functioning barracks, a human tooth, copper belt buckle, plaster spinning wheel, fragments of an alabaster mirror, and painted wall plaster.

She also found some ovens still crammed with charred chicken bones and ash.

The evidence points to a fire which forced the soldiers to leave but also a peaceful takeover of the previously Byzantine controlled citadel by Umayyad soldiers.

The artefacts are in Syria awaiting further analysis by Dr Loosley once – or if – she is able to return.

She said: “There is little evidence of any violence in the years before the citadel burned down, but there is intriguingly so much more to learn.

“We don’t even know if the soldiers who took over control from the Byzantines were Muslims or Christians even though they were subjects of the Umayadd caliph.

“Coexistence typified those times: some even argue that one reason why so many Christians converted to Islam is because the major sources of tension and conflict were between Christian factions themselves.”

She added: “The Khanuqa Gap is a major crossing point on the River Euphrates and so has been politically, economically and socially important to human beings for 11,000 years.

“It contains evidence of continuous human settlement through many civilisations including Assyrian, Roman, Arab – an astonishing area to work in and one of the most important in the world.

“So our work to understand as much as we can before it disappears is hugely important and I hope to be able go back as soon as it is safe to do so.”

The work was funded by the British Academy and the Osmane Aidi foundation.

A version of Dr Loosley’s book, Christian Responses to Islam and Muslim-Christian Relations in the Modern World, edited with Anthony O’Mahony is published by Manchester University Press in January 2012.

3) There is no compulsion in Islam for anyone under the protection of Shariah to believe in Islam if their hearts are not convinced, and no danger should they be in because they have not accepted Islam - they are still citizens of Islamic territories and are afforded the protection and exemption from fighting the wars the Muslims will have to fight against invading armies.

4) There is no compulsion in Islam for anyone to punish another who has come to belief and then left belief due to lack of conviction - the only exemption to this rule being in case of treason.

I can go on, and on bro Dave, but I want to make this short, so I will just say one thing: Why is it that people in this modern age do not study the details of certain laws - but instead prefer to shout about what they believe is common practice simply because that Sony 1080p TV told 'em so? there's lame... then there's lamer - especially if someone falls for lamestream media.

Don't consider this a personal attack on you, as it isn't... it's just something to provoke a little thought - not to provoke any argument,

God bless,

Scimi
 
But Greenhill. Murder is murder. It is the Quran and Hadith that say to kill the apostate.

Neither the Qur'an nor Ahadith command to kill an apostate simply for being an apostate. Both give additional reasons why the Death penalty was permitted

In the situations mentioned in the Qur'an and Ahadith, the person not only left Islam, but actively engaged in war against Muslims. In other words engaged in acts of treason.
 
The answer has already been given so many times, it is the issue of arrogance that people don't think they need to listen to others, you have examples which is common place, where if you were to tell someone to even politely not to do something wrong, they would automatically go in a tirade of abuse saying who the hell are you to tell us what to do.


If Prophet Jesus peace be upon him came back today and told people to;-


-stop drinking alcohol
-stop wearing revealing clothes
-stop getting tattoos


Would people be so readily to give up bad behaviour, as the Muslims had done at the time of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon?


Which is where people rejected the Prophets not because they believed that Prophet David, Moses, Ibrahim, Muhammad, Jesus, Lut peace be upon them were bad, but because people used to say to them, who the Hell do you do think you are to tell us what to do, why should God make you a Prophet and not us (even though the people did not enjoin good or forbid evil-nothing
was preventing them from opposing evil). But they were arrogant, DISOBEDIENT to the message and the commandments of God.


They trivialise the sins of people, even people rejecting God after becoming a believer. Is it not even worse that the wives of the two Prophets: - Noah and Lut peace be upon them became evil. If this happened today, people would be just saying its their choice, they can do what they like, when they have committed an awful sin, by allowing the sinful people to take more influence over their lives then their own righteous husbands.


You even get cases today where a woman who when she was asked to by her husband to get rid of the cats or he will leave, choose her cats. So that Man worked and provided a standard of living, is a pensioner, was looking forward to spending his retirement to now only be out of home and alone. But what are people saying? They are saying that the wife has made a stand for her rights-well maybe she should have chosen what was important to her first, instead of getting her husband
provide for her, when he could have found someone else. So becoming disloyal this is unacceptable. After having a relationship and becoming disloyal, this is why also divorce is frowned upon. Now that people are upset how some women treat their husbands, how upsetting do you think it is that when people decide to reject God after having a relationship
with him, by being on the straight path. Wereby having the angels praying for such and such. It is no difference if you decided not to get along with Archangel Gabriel anymore. The religious people have a position with Allah that nobody ie idol worshippers have. It is not for us to disregard, and trivialise it for the sake of people following their lusts and deciding its not important. There is nothing else after belief, there is nothing else after God.


As above it is not the laws that are at fault, it is the way that people disregard, devalue what God has given them when they say that it doesn't matter that when a person has so much from God (whether God saves them from calamities) we can just throw that relationship away. This is also why people should respect their parents and its not something that's acceptable to throw away.


Remember Allah and the Day of Judgement much.
 
Salaams,

Being away for a few days helps... coming back to the main point, "is apostasy allowed in Islam?". Perhaps the question puts something that is peripheral as a center piece. Hence when discussion is brought up on the matter, it is exploded into death and contradiction.

Those who leave the deen are those who never really believed or were never islam except by the utterance of the shahadah, because if a person were to truly believe, he/she would not leave the deen under any circumstances, so the question would not really exist.

So, the question of death, as many have said above is really reserved for treason.

The rest are man made decisions at their time and place.
 
Hi Scimi
In regards to Islam spreading peacefully. The Rashidun caliphate spread by the sword as did the later caliphates. The Najran Christians were forcibly expelled from the Arabian peninsula very early on. In regards to people of the modern age not studying the details of certain laws - how did the Islamic experts in Sudan and Iran get by then. Qualified Islamic jurists condemning a pregnant Sudanese Christian woman to death for apostasy. And a court in Iran sentencing a Iranian Christian pastor to death. And these were qualified courts.
 
Greetings Genesis,

Forgive me if I don't consider what you personally hold to account to be of any value.

So you believe God can be imperfect? What kind of a God is this?

Even if true, so what? The Bible contains a great many disturbing passages involving lewd behaviour, attributes shocking crimes to Prophets, whereas the Qur'an does not.

The exact same thing can be said about Islam.
Hello Mohamad- you ask can God be imperfect. God is not imperfect- but he will to humanity has been an evolving revelation.
 
I like your veracity, it's cute :)

hmm *snaps fingers* hey, look around you - what do you see? 1 fifth the worlds population is Muslim in case you haven't noticed, and more people from the west - women over men on a ration of 4/1, are reverting to Islam more than any other religion in the world - try telling me again, how Islam is irrelevant please?

Despite the media spin, lies, and waffle to push public opinion into mindless regurgitations of its own broadcasts, people are waking up. And the world is higher in numbers of Muslims today than it ever has been. How is this possible? Please, I'd like to hear your explanation of this :D i'm up for a laugh.

Scimi
Irrelevant ? Morally bankrupt then. Boko Harem abducting Christian school girls and selling them into slavery. A pregnant woman in Sudan jailed and condemned to execution for apostasy, ISIS ,a failed Arab Spring, the Sunni Shiite split , a court in Iran condemning a Christian to death for apostasy.

An explanation? Where are you getting your stats from? The research Ive done reports Christianity as the worlds last and fastest growing religion. Al Jazeera reports 6 million African Muslims converting to Christianity every year.
 
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